LABELS - The Thread!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No one (here at PD) has said "don't act/think/dress like that" as advice on how to fix the problem. That happens, yes. It should be stopped. But it doesn't happen here. What we have here is one group of people says "I am going to continue behaving the way I have been and shouldn't be told to change my ways," and another group that says... "I am going to continue behaving the way I have been and shouldn't be told to change my ways." Two equally uncompromising groups who, when we aren't specifically discussing this topic, don't actually cross these lines very often.

What is the point of this discussion? One month ago, nobody here was assumed to be sexist or anti-woman. Now, we have a number of people who are racing for that line because of the nature of the Internet, where arguments become very extreme as quickly as possible. So this discussion, about improving gender relations in society at large, has effectively caused a schism roughly along gender lines in the immediate society. If this is not typical Human behavior I don't know what is.

This is why it is my belief that forcing the issues of one or another gender, however technically necessary it may be, is a bad idea compared to everyone pretending that gender doesn't fucking exist. There's no reason that won't work, except for a dwindling number of assholes who are going to die out anyway.

Also, v3x, I am utterly floored that your takeway from what I said is "I am going to continue behaving the way I have been and shouldn't be told to change my ways".

As women, we alter our behavior constantly, profoundly, in order to minimize the chances of violence. We chat about this casually on the bus, in the office... it's just a fact of life. How on EARTH did you get that from a dialogue about changing society so that we can stop altering our behavior so much as a coping mechanism for a dangerous environment?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I get feelings. I'm not like a robot or spock or some shit. I see someone who's obviously fucking pissed off about something, I'll be all like "What's up" and they tell me that someone did something shitty at work or their cat's dead or something and I'll be all sympathetic and shit, like genuinely sympathetic, not like I have to simulate it and, if they want advice I'll give em anything I can come up with and, yeah, sometimes I'll be the asshole that gives unsolicited advice. But if you're telling me the only reason they told me the cat story is so's I'd know they were feeling down, that's retarded. Their face told me that - it's why I asked in the first place.

And why the fuck would you feel the need to tell someone how some shit made you feel is beyond me. Feelings are personal, they're what you feel. Why tell someone who, in all probability, would feel completely differently in the same situation? What's in it for either party?

Fuck yes. This x 1000.

Regardless of what bits you have dangling between your legs, communication solely for the purpose of emotional validation is fucking retarded. Learn to deal with your own head and save conversing with me for when you have something interesting or relevant to relay.

But Hustle, the delicate little snowflakes shouldn't have to learn to deal. The world should be nice and fluffy and unicorns and shit and, until we make it like that for them, we should listen to them whining like little bitches, cos that makes them feel all better.

That's actually pretty needlessly insulting, and also not at all what I was trying to say so I hope nobody conflates my post with yours. Remember, I was talking about communication SOLELY for the purpose of emotional validation.

For the record, I would have been shocked if you'd agreed with that statement, because I know that is NOT what you were saying.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I don't think it's contempt, I think it's just phrased that way. Personally I think if all you want to do is "talk about your feelings," they have therapists, drum circles, and spouses for that. I don't particularly care what Random Person X from City XYZ "feels" about anything. When it comes to that scale of things, I care that the police don't fuck with me too much, that trains run on time, and that I can afford food and shelter. I do not care about the inner child of any person I don't personally know and that is because the people I do know are already standing in line for the limited number of fucks I have to give about that kind of thing.

If we're going to have Public Discourse about something, please, for the love of Christ, let its goal be action and tangible changes to society, not a grand intercontinental effort to talk about building the world's largest clothesline so we can all air our dirty laundry on it.

You can't control the interpretation of what you write, though.

There were 4 of us who came up to this wall about how a certain aspect of being female fucking sucks, we were all pretty much saying the same thing about that aspect.

We didn't even get a fucking chance to get to get to tangible actions and solutions, related to the case of creepy dudes and street harassment/sexual assault because the snarky disregard shown to how living this situation makes us feel on a day to day basis.  If a portion of society feels that certain behaviours are intimidating that come from another group, isn't that what the meat and bones of systematic racism or sexism is all about? The lived experience of the group in question?

Draw a parallel between street harassment of women by random assholes and stop-and-search of people of colour.  We all get het up about racial profiling by police here, and rightly so.  If instead we all told people of colour not to look/act/dress in a certain way to avoid getting stopped, or that the problem was how they responded to this threat and to change the way thinking of it, there would be an epic shitstorm.  Both of these situations are experienced emotionally by the target, and make them feel that freedom of movement and the ability to just go out and do this whole life thing without fear or frustration isn't something that either of these groups can currently do as it stands.

telling women/ POC to act/dress/think about it differently doesn't solve the root of the problem, and if it is a scenario that doesn't affect you and you say this shit and you aren't taking on how the emotional or experiential aspect is part of the result of oppressive actions by the group with the power and laying it down at the feet of those with the direct experience, like Geraldo telling POC not to wear hoodies in the wake of the egregious shit that happened to Trayvon Martin.

Does my parallel make any sense to anyone but me? (I'm predicting Nigel will get it, possibly Freeky and a couple of other bods.)

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me, and I agree with it completely.

No one (here at PD) has said "don't act/think/dress like that" as advice on how to fix the problem. That happens, yes. It should be stopped. But it doesn't happen here. What we have here is one group of people says "I am going to continue behaving the way I have been and shouldn't be told to change my ways," and another group that says... "I am going to continue behaving the way I have been and shouldn't be told to change my ways." Two equally uncompromising groups who, when we aren't specifically discussing this topic, don't actually cross these lines very often.

What is the point of this discussion? One month ago, nobody here was assumed to be sexist or anti-woman. Now, we have a number of people who are racing for that line because of the nature of the Internet, where arguments become very extreme as quickly as possible. So this discussion, about improving gender relations in society at large, has effectively caused a schism roughly along gender lines in the immediate society. If this is not typical Human behavior I don't know what is.

This is why it is my belief that forcing the issues of one or another gender, however technically necessary it may be, is a bad idea compared to everyone pretending that gender doesn't fucking exist. There's no reason that won't work, except for a dwindling number of assholes who are going to die out anyway.

P3nt did. Just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Can't speak for p3nt but I'd be inclined to think he's trying to get a reaction more than stating his honest opinion. But even if that is his honest opinion, it would make him one of those dwindling number of assholes.

What we need is a growing disregard for gender. We do not need to be reminded that women are out there and have been oppressed. We need to be taught that gender is a non-factor. We don't need special "how to handle a black person" training; we need to be taught that race does not matter. Or, better yet, we need to eliminate the sources of education that gender and race do matter - since these are learned prejudices, not natural ones.

This is why my philosophy calls not only giving no fucks about race, gender, sexual orientation, but proactively wrestling fucks away from other people* so that they cannot give any, either. But it has nothing to do with focusing on gender or race, because such a focus is entirely antithetical to the fundamental principles of egalitarianism.






* "Wrestling fucks away from other people" is clumsy wording, not a reference to rape.

[Freeky]

I get feelings. I'm not like a robot or spock or some shit. I see someone who's obviously fucking pissed off about something, I'll be all like "What's up" and they tell me that someone did something shitty at work or their cat's dead or something and I'll be all sympathetic and shit, like genuinely sympathetic, not like I have to simulate it and, if they want advice I'll give em anything I can come up with and, yeah, sometimes I'll be the asshole that gives unsolicited advice. But if you're telling me the only reason they told me the cat story is so's I'd know they were feeling down, that's retarded. Their face told me that - it's why I asked in the first place.

And why the fuck would you feel the need to tell someone how some shit made you feel is beyond me. Feelings are personal, they're what you feel. Why tell someone who, in all probability, would feel completely differently in the same situation? What's in it for either party?

Actually, I seldom do. Shitty people use things like that and good people don't need to be saddled with it.

That's a really fucked up thing to say, both of you.

Let me guess, it makes your inner child weep little rainbow coloured tears of desperation? 

Well, at least you have enough integrity to mock me for being different from you, and not be a hypocrite about it. That's okay though, I'd rather be capable of having empathy for people who are feeling bad than have respect from the likes of you.

[Freeky]

I get feelings. I'm not like a robot or spock or some shit. I see someone who's obviously fucking pissed off about something, I'll be all like "What's up" and they tell me that someone did something shitty at work or their cat's dead or something and I'll be all sympathetic and shit, like genuinely sympathetic, not like I have to simulate it and, if they want advice I'll give em anything I can come up with and, yeah, sometimes I'll be the asshole that gives unsolicited advice. But if you're telling me the only reason they told me the cat story is so's I'd know they were feeling down, that's retarded. Their face told me that - it's why I asked in the first place.
And why the fuck would you feel the need to tell someone how some shit made you feel is beyond me. Feelings are personal, they're what you feel. Why tell someone who, in all probability, would feel completely differently in the same situation? What's In it for either party?

Fuck yes. This x 1000.

Regardless of what bits you have dangling between your legs, communication solely for the purpose of emotional validation is fucking retarded. Learn to deal with your own head and save conversing with me for when you have something interesting or relevant to relay.

What do you mean by emotional validation? What does this phrase even mean?

[East Coast Hustle]

It means that outside of the tiny handful of humans whom I care deeply about, I don't generally give two shits how anyone else feels about anything if it's not relevant to me. If you want to sit down and talk about your feelings because I've directly caused them with my words or actions, that's legit because there's potential for resolution there. If you want to talk about your feelings in the context of some larger narrative, fine. But if you just want to tell me about your feelings so you can hear me tell you they're normal/justified/whatever or because you just need a sounding board, well, my hourly rates start at $60.

[Juana]

I get feelings. I'm not like a robot or spock or some shit. I see someone who's obviously fucking pissed off about something, I'll be all like "What's up" and they tell me that someone did something shitty at work or their cat's dead or something and I'll be all sympathetic and shit, like genuinely sympathetic, not like I have to simulate it and, if they want advice I'll give em anything I can come up with and, yeah, sometimes I'll be the asshole that gives unsolicited advice. But if you're telling me the only reason they told me the cat story is so's I'd know they were feeling down, that's retarded. Their face told me that - it's why I asked in the first place.

And why the fuck would you feel the need to tell someone how some shit made you feel is beyond me. Feelings are personal, they're what you feel. Why tell someone who, in all probability, would feel completely differently in the same situation? What's in it for either party?

We live in a society where women/females are denied the right to feel certain things and then when we DO feel them or act on them  the almost inevitable result is "YOU'RE BEING OVER EMOTIONAL!"
So sue me if I want to ask someone if I really did over or under reacted to something sometimes (which is over all a rare thing because I am not a terribly emotional person anyway). Believe me, I'm not going to ask you or ECH or anyone else here so it's not something you need to worry your Scottish little head about.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I get feelings. I'm not like a robot or spock or some shit. I see someone who's obviously fucking pissed off about something, I'll be all like "What's up" and they tell me that someone did something shitty at work or their cat's dead or something and I'll be all sympathetic and shit, like genuinely sympathetic, not like I have to simulate it and, if they want advice I'll give em anything I can come up with and, yeah, sometimes I'll be the asshole that gives unsolicited advice. But if you're telling me the only reason they told me the cat story is so's I'd know they were feeling down, that's retarded. Their face told me that - it's why I asked in the first place.

And why the fuck would you feel the need to tell someone how some shit made you feel is beyond me. Feelings are personal, they're what you feel. Why tell someone who, in all probability, would feel completely differently in the same situation? What's in it for either party?

Actually, I seldom do. Shitty people use things like that and good people don't need to be saddled with it.

That's a really fucked up thing to say, both of you.

Let me guess, it makes your inner child weep little rainbow coloured tears of desperation? 

Well, at least you have enough integrity to mock me for being different from you, and not be a hypocrite about it. That's okay though, I'd rather be capable of having empathy for people who are feeling bad than have respect from the likes of you.

Likewise.

[East Coast Hustle]

See, I'm not like that out of a lack of empathy. I'm like that because it's way too easy for me to feel WAY TOO MUCH empathy, and I've had to learn to protect myself from that or I'd end up spending my whole damn life worrying about other peoples' problems.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

See, I'm not like that out of a lack of empathy. I'm like that because it's way too easy for me to feel WAY TOO MUCH empathy, and I've had to learn to protect myself from that or I'd end up spending my whole damn life worrying about other peoples' problems.

That's more a matter of boundaries than anything else. Some people are like emotional leeches, and will try to suck all the empathy and energy you're willing to give them, which is significantly different from a friend or family member telling a story to try to gain your understanding of something that is important to them.

[Juana]

^^^ That.

[Freeky]

See, I'm not like that out of a lack of empathy. I'm like that because it's way too easy for me to feel WAY TOO MUCH empathy, and I've had to learn to protect myself from that or I'd end up spending my whole damn life worrying about other peoples' problems.

Okay, that makes sense.

In regard with the whole "my rate is $60/hour," it sounds more like you don't want people to approach you personally? Or do you really lose respect for people who act in such a way no matter who they approach, even if their chosen listener is totally willing to listen and give sympathy?

[East Coast Hustle]

See, I'm not like that out of a lack of empathy. I'm like that because it's way too easy for me to feel WAY TOO MUCH empathy, and I've had to learn to protect myself from that or I'd end up spending my whole damn life worrying about other peoples' problems.

Okay, that makes sense.

In regard with the whole "my rate is $60/hour," it sounds more like you don't want people to approach you personally? Or do you really lose respect for people who act in such a way no matter who they approach, even if their chosen listener is totally willing to listen and give sympathy?

I lose respect for people who act in such a way towards people who don't want to be acted toward in such a way. I also lose respect for people who are pathologically driven to seek emotional validation from others over every damn thing that ever happens. I'd like to think it's a rare trait, but experience tells me it's not as rare as I'd like it to be. It should be noted that experience also tells me that having this trait has no correlation to what kind of dangly bits someone has between their legs.

[East Coast Hustle]

In other words, I also lose ALOT of respect for anyone I hear parroting the "women are overly emotional and find it difficult to be rational in the face of their own emotions" trope.

[Freeky]

I can appreciate that.

Eta: that trope pisses me off something fierce and makes me want to stab someone in the face.