The Deciders

[AFK]

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

Point worth mentioning:  The poor Whites with no power fought very hard for the South in the civil war, even though victory meant a static class system in which they could not advance.  They would not, however, be on the BOTTOM of the shit heap, which was apparently enough motivation to go get blown to gobbets.

Okay but not-being-at-the-absolute-bottom =\= being a Decider.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

You can't not vote.  You may decide not to cast a ballot, but that's still a vote.  It is a vote for "I have no opinion, someone decide for me."

[Salty]

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

What about the continuation of harmful rhetoric by uneducated white men? What about when they enforce and apply world-views that keep fucking things up for everyone because those views also come from white males, whether they're rich or in poverty?

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

He makes sure his kid isn't a fag. He makes sure his wife knows her place. He lives a life prescribed by deciders because he thinks they're on the same side. And for as long as he does, they are.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

Point worth mentioning:  The poor Whites with no power fought very hard for the South in the civil war, even though victory meant a static class system in which they could not advance.  They would not, however, be on the BOTTOM of the shit heap, which was apparently enough motivation to go get blown to gobbets.

Okay but not-being-at-the-absolute-bottom =\= being a Decider.

I disagree.  The Southern soldiers, for example, decided to enforce the will of the actual deciders.  No politician, autocrat, or king can function without at least the tacit support of the population.  Deciding to bow to that decider is to take part in that person's decisions.

[LMNO]

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

What about the continuation of harmful rhetoric by uneducated white men? What about when they enforce and apply world-views that keep fucking things up for everyone because those views also come from white males, whether they're rich or in poverty?

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

HEY, RWHN!

Is it possible that the disenfranchised SWM youth that the Deciders market to are choosing products that reinforce the Opression of She?

And if so, the passive acceptance of what the Deciders present contribute to and enforce the Opression.

Therefore, the SWMY are a crucial tool being used by the Deciders.

And so the SWMY need to be woken up to their dilemma -- they are not benefiting from the Patriarchy, but they are actively participating in it.

[AFK]

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

You can't not vote.  You may decide not to cast a ballot, but that's still a vote.  It is a vote for "I have no opinion, someone decide for me."

I dunno, I haven't seen too many decision makers go into skid row to shake hands and campaign for the "not vote".  They don't hold any power at all.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

He makes sure his kid isn't a fag. He makes sure his wife knows her place. He lives a life prescribed by deciders because he thinks they're on the same side. And for as long as he does, they are.

He goes to church, to be told how to act.  He goes to the bar with his friends, to practice what he's learned when people like Garbo come in for a drink with friends.  He does whatever he's told, to whomever is appropriate.

He's Building The Dream.  It just isn't his dream.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

You can't not vote.  You may decide not to cast a ballot, but that's still a vote.  It is a vote for "I have no opinion, someone decide for me."

I dunno, I haven't seen too many decision makers go into skid row to shake hands and campaign for the "not vote".  They don't hold any power at all.

As long as they don't vote, they are not exercising their power.  That's not the same as not having it.  And you don't have to go to skid row to find passive non-voters.

[LMNO]

Did you motherfuckers put me on ignore, or something?

[AFK]

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

What about the continuation of harmful rhetoric by uneducated white men? What about when they enforce and apply world-views that keep fucking things up for everyone because those views also come from white males, whether they're rich or in poverty?

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

He makes sure his kid isn't a fag. He makes sure his wife knows her place. He lives a life prescribed by deciders because he thinks they're on the same side. And for as long as he does, they are.

A straight black man can do all of that.  Like the straight black folks who voted against gay marriage in California, or the straight Latino men....


Look, my main argument here is that it is nonsense to throw around this stupid Decider label when it ignores the current and ACTUAL power structure in this society.  It isn't poor straight white guys, fuck, it isn't middle class straight white guys.  It's fat fucks in Washington, on Wall Street, on 5th Avenue,  in Hollywood....


You are dividing the wrong people.

[Salty]

He makes sure his kid isn't a fag. He makes sure his wife knows her place. He lives a life prescribed by deciders because he thinks they're on the same side. And for as long as he does, they are.

He goes to church, to be told how to act.  He goes to the bar with his friends, to practice what he's learned when people like Garbo come in for a drink with friends.  He does whatever he's told, to whomever is appropriate.

He's Building The Dream.  It just isn't his dream.

He wears the right kind of clothes. He wouldn't get an earring, but if he did it would be on the correct side of his face.

RWHN, you seem to think that Deciders are strictly calling the shots. I don't think what Nigel was trying to illustrate was so literal. They decide what is right on a broad scale that nevertheless is applicable to the minutiae of people's lives.

These people decide that it's not okay to be gay, and legions of people back them up. It's the kind of thing people only vaguely hint they support (unless they're Palin or the like) from behind a podium, but make cracks about at the men's club.

Did you motherfuckers put me on ignore, or something?

No sorry, just a lot of posting going on today.

Is it possible that the disenfranchised SWM youth that the Deciders market to are choosing products that reinforce the Opression of She?

And if so, the passive acceptance of what the Deciders present contribute to and enforce the Opression.

Therefore, the SWMY are a crucial tool being used by the Deciders.

And so the SWMY need to be woken up to their dilemma -- they are not benefiting from the Patriarchy, but they are actively participating in it.

Hey. This addresses the new subject.

You said this before I said my thing, which is actually better said than what I said.

Actually, I think he's trying to focus on the "Some, but not all" position, rather than saying there's no institutionalized imbalance.

Its a true point, in that most people in a society don't actually control the society, even if they have the same color and shape of dangly bits that the people in charge have. However, from a broad perspective, there is a bias in society toward SWM. Its not so much that they are the Deciders, as it is that The Deciders are biased toward the SWM.

I think.

Yes.  It's completely disingenuous, and frankly stupid, to call all straight white men Deciders when so many of them are deciding precisely zilch.  If you want to talk broadly that straight white males, as a faceless cohort, have on balance had things a lot better over time than other cohorts, I can agree with that.


But don't sell me some bullshit that just because someone is straight white and male they are some Decider. 


Frankly, it's insulting to those wading in the same abject poverty as other minority groups.

What about the continuation of harmful rhetoric by uneducated white men? What about when they enforce and apply world-views that keep fucking things up for everyone because those views also come from white males, whether they're rich or in poverty?

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

He makes sure his kid isn't a fag. He makes sure his wife knows her place. He lives a life prescribed by deciders because he thinks they're on the same side. And for as long as he does, they are.

A straight black man can do all of that.  Like the straight black folks who voted against gay marriage in California, or the straight Latino men....


Look, my main argument here is that it is nonsense to throw around this stupid Decider label when it ignores the current and ACTUAL power structure in this society.  It isn't poor straight white guys, fuck, it isn't middle class straight white guys.  It's fat fucks in Washington, on Wall Street, on 5th Avenue,  in Hollywood....


You are dividing the wrong people.

Yeah, because they're idiots. Wait. More. Gotta think.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

Failure to cast a ballot is abdicating your measure of political power to the system itself, rather than to a direction for the system.

When some complete off-the-deep-end teatard, or some mindless treehugging hippy, or some levelheaded got-it-all-figured-out intellectual goes out and casts a ballot for the goon he likes best, he's telling the system what to go and do with itself. Maybe it's a bad direction, maybe you disagree with it. But casting that ballot is a small force exerted on the direction of the system at large.

If you just don't vote, your assigned political power still gets used. It just gets used by the system instead of by you.

[AFK]

Is it possible that the disenfranchised SWM youth that the Deciders market to are choosing products that reinforce the Opression of She?

And if so, the passive acceptance of what the Deciders present contribute to and enforce the Opression.

Therefore, the SWMY are a crucial tool being used by the Deciders.

And so the SWMY need to be woken up to their dilemma -- they are not benefiting from the Patriarchy, but they are actively participating in it.

Hey. This addresses the new subject.

But they market that shit to SBM youth, SAM youth, basically Straight American Male youth.  But what about the poor 40 year old straight white shlub?  They aren't marketing anything to him.  Is he a Decider?  Fuck no, he's been left behind too.

[AFK]

How does a poor white guy enforce anything?  Particularly if they are also NOT voting?

You can't not vote.  You may decide not to cast a ballot, but that's still a vote.  It is a vote for "I have no opinion, someone decide for me."

I dunno, I haven't seen too many decision makers go into skid row to shake hands and campaign for the "not vote".  They don't hold any power at all.

As long as they don't vote, they are not exercising their power.  That's not the same as not having it.  And you don't have to go to skid row to find passive non-voters.

What Power?  Even if they fucking voted they'd get jack shit in return, because as poor white males, they are the wrong people.

[LMNO]

Is it possible that the disenfranchised SWM youth that the Deciders market to are choosing products that reinforce the Opression of She?

And if so, the passive acceptance of what the Deciders present contribute to and enforce the Opression.

Therefore, the SWMY are a crucial tool being used by the Deciders.

And so the SWMY need to be woken up to their dilemma -- they are not benefiting from the Patriarchy, but they are actively participating in it.

Hey. This addresses the new subject.

But they market that shit to SBM youth, SAM youth, basically Straight American Male youth.  But what about the poor 40 year old straight white shlub?  They aren't marketing anything to him.  Is he a Decider?  Fuck no, he's been left behind too.

I'd like to make another diagram, but I don't have access. But the 40SWS WANTS TO BE the SWMY.  Because that's part of the Deciders marketing, too.