The Deciders

[AFK]

RWHN, you seem to think that Deciders are strictly calling the shots. I don't think what Nigel was trying to illustrate was so literal. They decide what is right on a broad scale that nevertheless is applicable to the minutiae of people's lives.

I still call bullshit.  It's patently absurd to call someone under the thumb of society a Decider just because they share the same skin tone, genitalia, and orientation of those who are ACTUALLY in charge.  It's a stupid generalization and it kind of pisses me off when I work with so many in rough conditions who certainly did not Decide the lot in life they currently enjoy.  It's an insulting label.

These people decide that it's not okay to be gay, and legions of people back them up. It's the kind of thing people only vaguely hint they support (unless they're Palin or the like) from behind a podium, but make cracks about at the men's club.

Legions of people that include other skin tones and genders.  It's a brush that is too broad.

[Salty]

I have to admit you've given me pause for thought.

[AFK]

Is it possible that the disenfranchised SWM youth that the Deciders market to are choosing products that reinforce the Opression of She?

And if so, the passive acceptance of what the Deciders present contribute to and enforce the Opression.

Therefore, the SWMY are a crucial tool being used by the Deciders.

And so the SWMY need to be woken up to their dilemma -- they are not benefiting from the Patriarchy, but they are actively participating in it.

Hey. This addresses the new subject.

But they market that shit to SBM youth, SAM youth, basically Straight American Male youth.  But what about the poor 40 year old straight white shlub?  They aren't marketing anything to him.  Is he a Decider?  Fuck no, he's been left behind too.

I'd like to make another diagram, but I don't have access. But the 40SWS WANTS TO BE the SWMY.  Because that's part of the Deciders marketing, too.

The poor Somali kid in the neighborhood I work in wants to be the gangster black American kid because of the marketing he has been exposed to.  But I suspect people here would not consider the straight black young men as Deciders, right?

[AFK]

There aren't any Deciders living here

[tyrannosaurus vex]

RWHN, you seem to think that Deciders are strictly calling the shots. I don't think what Nigel was trying to illustrate was so literal. They decide what is right on a broad scale that nevertheless is applicable to the minutiae of people's lives.

I still call bullshit.  It's patently absurd to call someone under the thumb of society a Decider just because they share the same skin tone, genitalia, and orientation of those who are ACTUALLY in charge.  It's a stupid generalization and it kind of pisses me off when I work with so many in rough conditions who certainly did not Decide the lot in life they currently enjoy.  It's an insulting label.

These people decide that it's not okay to be gay, and legions of people back them up. It's the kind of thing people only vaguely hint they support (unless they're Palin or the like) from behind a podium, but make cracks about at the men's club.

Legions of people that include other skin tones and genders.  It's a brush that is too broad.

I would agree with you if there was any such thing as someone who is "in charge" of society. Unfortunately, however, we are on a giant short bus, and nobody is driving it.

The Deciders aren't a secretive cabal of sadists plotting the demise of minorities or women or poor white guys from a bunker 10 stories underground. They are all of us, and the direction our society goes because of what happens between us. And the fact is that white guys enjoy a certain amount of -- yes -- privilege based on their genetics. But it isn't about the privilege, it's about what they miss because of that privilege. They miss the fears of a woman trying to make it home from work after dark in the subway and past dark alleys. They miss the humiliation of the black man who has just been arrested for the crime of jaywalking while African. They miss the rational paranoia of the Hispanic family wondering if they'll be able to pay for food or rent if one of them is arrested during a routine traffic stop for no reason other than being on the wrong side of an imaginary line.

There is an entire America that white males never experience. A completely different life experience and in some cases a completely different set of resulting fears, concerns, and ethics. And while a white guy can come to terms with the fact that those things exist, he will never really understand what it's like to be there. So when he tries to offer his experience as "also oppressed" to those to whom he cannot relate on that level, he inevitably comes across as arrogant and privileged.

It's like Mitt Romney telling you he understands how rough it is to be broke in college, because he and his wife were so broke in college they had to sell some of their stock. FFS. Not only is it not helpful, it's insulting.

And I think I just understood something important about the positions I've been taking in the last day or so.

[Juana]

RWHN, chill the fuck out. No one is attacking you.

Lemme try to lay of out for you, okay?
The crux of it is that swm are in one or another, as a part of broader demographics, who determine what life is like for all of us.
Culturally, swm of all ages and socio-economic statuses seriously impact the rest of us. Please see my comment about Danny Glover's film. Hollywood, et al. think that if there are no white heroes in a story, no one (aka, no white people) will come see it. That made it very, very hard for Glover to get funding for what looks like a fantastic story.

Straight white men are why white women are usually posed in submissive positions and why women of color are either exoticized as hypersexualized Others or deprived of their agency as Mammy.

The power of the white man is why men of color on crime shows always die of crime related violence and why the useless white girl is the one who survives horror movies.

The power of straight people is why gay people are either campy as fuck or non-existent in movies and tv shows (also Hollywood powerhouses are usually straight white men).

The power of the white man created the prison-industrial complex, imprisoning astronomical numbers men of color for the profit of rich white people.

Who writes policy? People who are mostly men, mostly white, and mostly straight.
Who mostly and usually sits in the halls of power? See the above.
Who is thrown under the bus in pursuit of the swm vote? Women, queers, PoC, and the poor (I should still write that essay about the curious alliance between the rich and poor whites, oughtn't I?)


Who are always part of the oppressive power?
Straight white men, in one form or another.

I should note that historically, rich white men have played their poorer counterparts off PoC (and women), in a very deliberate fashion, since Bacon's Rebellion in order to preserve the status quo but this does not change the fact that swm are still the broad determinors of our culture, because in order to do so required that they end up with a lot of power as a group.

I'll come back when I has actual interbutts instead of phone interbutts.

[AFK]

No, it's not like that at all where Romney has been set for life from the word go, while the poor white guy was scrounging for scraps from the day he was born.


The brush is too broad.

[AFK]

RWHN, chill the fuck out. No one is attacking you.

Lemme try to lay of out for you, okay?
The crux of it is that swm are in one or another, as a part of broader demographics, who determine what life is like for all of us.
Culturally, swm of all ages and socio-economic statuses seriously impact the rest of us. Please see my comment about Danny Glover's film. Hollywood, et al. think that if there are no white heroes in a story, no one (aka, no white people) will come see it. That made it very, very hard for Glover to get funding for what looks like a fantastic story.

Straight white men are why white women are usually posed in submissive positions and why women of color are either exoticized as hypersexualized Others or deprived of their agency as Mammy.

The power of the white man is why men of color on crime shows always die of crime related violence and why the useless white girl is the one who survives horror movies.

The power of straight people is why gay people are either campy as fuck or non-existent in movies and tv shows (also Hollywood powerhouses are usually straight white men).

The power of the white man created the prison-industrial complex, imprisoning astronomical numbers men of color for the profit of rich white people.

Who writes policy? People who are mostly men, mostly white, and mostly straight.
Who mostly and usually sits in the halls of power? See the above.
Who is thrown under the bus in pursuit of the swm vote? Women, queers, PoC, and the poor (I should still write that essay about the curious alliance between the rich and poor whites, oughtn't I?)


Who are always part of the oppressive power?
Straight white men, in one form or another.

I should note that historically, rich white men have played their poorer counterparts off PoC (and women), in a very deliberate fashion, since Bacon's Rebellion in order to preserve the status quo but this does not change the fact that swm are still the broad determinors of our culture, because in order to do so required that they end up with a lot of power as a group.

I'll come back when I has actual interbutts instead of phone interbutts.

Some, SWM.  The ones with ACTUAL power and ACTUAL resources.  The ones who have the lint in their pocket have NO power.


The brush is too broad.

[MMIX]

RWHN, you seem to think that Deciders are strictly calling the shots. I don't think what Nigel was trying to illustrate was so literal. They decide what is right on a broad scale that nevertheless is applicable to the minutiae of people's lives.

I still call bullshit.  It's patently absurd to call someone under the thumb of society a Decider just because they share the same skin tone, genitalia, and orientation of those who are ACTUALLY in charge.  It's a stupid generalization and it kind of pisses me off when I work with so many in rough conditions who certainly did not Decide the lot in life they currently enjoy.  It's an insulting label.

These people decide that it's not okay to be gay, and legions of people back them up. It's the kind of thing people only vaguely hint they support (unless they're Palin or the like) from behind a podium, but make cracks about at the men's club.

Legions of people that include other skin tones and genders.  It's a brush that is too broad.

OK. I said it earlier in the thread but I guess you just didn't hear me, so I'm going to try again.

Its called the Patriarchy

[AFK]

I heard, doesn't change anything I've laid out in this thead.  It is patently absurd and insulting to label the powerless Deciders.  Do you REALLY think a 50 year old white guy who has been unemployed for ages really feels like some kind of Decider Patriarch?  Of course the fuck not.  He probably feels completely worthless and anything but powerful. 

[MMIX]

I heard, doesn't change anything I've laid out in this thead.  It is patently absurd and insulting to label the powerless Deciders.  Do you REALLY think a 50 year old white guy who has been unemployed for ages really feels like some kind of Decider Patriarch?  Of course the fuck not.  He probably feels completely worthless and anything but powerful.

So talk to his wife. A

[Salty]

I heard, doesn't change anything I've laid out in this thead.  It is patently absurd and insulting to label the powerless Deciders.  Do you REALLY think a 50 year old white guy who has been unemployed for ages really feels like some kind of Decider Patriarch?  Of course the fuck not.  He probably feels completely worthless and anything but powerful.

So talk to his wife. A

ZING. But also the correct motorcycle.

I thought about it, and the brush is indeed broad. It's not just white guys...anymore. Now it's rich male of any kind. But that's still where the focus is. Black people have no more sympathy for gay people do than any other people. Same goes for women, both ways. It comes down to individuals. HOWEVER, the overwhelming trend is dominated by males with power to...

Well, look at the GOP discourse, if you can call it that, on abortion recently. At the bare bottom of their rhetoric they take these things for granted, meanwhile I'm asking myself why we're wasting time even talking about that. Congress may as well stand around debating whether unicorns were on Noah's Ark or not.

Really, RWHN, you've helped to illustrate the problem more clearly. With a finer brush, you might say.

[AFK]

I just know, that if there is any progress to be made, it is going to be counterproductive to inappropriately label potential brothers-in-arms.  And that is where I've been taking issue.

[Salty]

I just know, that if there is any progress to be made, it is going to be counterproductive to inappropriately label potential brothers-in-arms.  And that is where I've been taking issue.

I fully agree with you. But when the enemy is the same as brothers-in-arms aside from their brain-meat and daily actions it becomes difficult to relay who is who at all. Which is why it's good when people who disagree with terminology speak up.

[Placid Dingo]

It feels to me that we're mixing things.

If were talking about discourse and agenda setting and the construction of normality, I see how we can say "white male heterosexuals" are setting that agenda in media etc. But in terms of real power, I think RWHN is, on it.

Also doesn't the agenda exist outside of the people maintaining it? I'm sure pleanty of white hetero men are challenging it, and a lot non white non straight females are unconsciously maintaining it.