Israel starving refugees to death at its border

[Verbal Mike]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/05/eritrean-refugees-at-israeli-egyptian-border
One of those days when I'm especially ashamed of what my home country does. Not sure if it's mentioned in the Guardian article, but last night some Israeli civilians tried to approach the fence to give the refugees some food, and the army refused to let them through or even pass the food on for them, apparently on official orders.

And people I know are defending this, or at least deflecting it with "yeah but why aren't you criticizing Assad for his atrocities?" or "but isn't Egypt even more responsible for this situation?".

Also, caffeine and nicotine withdrawal. Just kill me.

[Suu]

In Romney's America™, Mexicans will be treated in a similar manner on our Great Wall of Texas.

[Cain]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Yeah, not really convincing me of the rightness of this action with those red herrings.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Yeah, not really convincing me of the rightness of this action with those red herrings.

My policy of A PLAGUE ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES seems to still be the best possible option.

[Suu]

Honestly, I would like to believe that Israel should fucking know better.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Honestly, I would like to believe that Israel should fucking know better.

Given their history, what on Earth would lead you to believe anything of the kind?

[Cain]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Yeah, not really convincing me of the rightness of this action with those red herrings.

My policy of A PLAGUE ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES seems to still be the best possible option.

It certainly seems so.  I tend to be a bit more sympathetic to the Palestinians than Israelis, as a rule, because of the massive power disparity between the two, but I don't for a minute think it would be any different if the Palestinians had American military support and a state with which to oppress the Israelis.  Also the history of the Jewish people really means the Israeli state should know fucking better, but apparently that is not the case.

VERBL, to what extent do you think these refugees are being denied entry due to the upsurge in anti-African racism and violence in Israel?  I notice there have been some...disturbing incidents lately, which seem to comfirm that justifying states in ethnoreligious rather than civic terms leads to racism and ethnic conflict.

[Verbal Mike]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Within internal discourse, yes, this has become a standard argument you basically hear any time you criticize anything the government or army does. Okay, when it's about how the government's policies even fuck over Israeli Jews, you hear this less, but still sometimes. ("If you hate it so much here, why not go live in Syria?")

[Suu]

Honestly, I would like to believe that Israel should fucking know better.

Given their history, what on Earth would lead you to believe anything of the kind?

I would LIKE to, but I won't.

The whole construct of that country is bullshit.

[Cain]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Within internal discourse, yes, this has become a standard argument you basically hear any time you criticize anything the government or army does. Okay, when it's about how the government's policies even fuck over Israeli Jews, you hear this less, but still sometimes. ("If you hate it so much here, why not go live in Syria?")

"If you love refugees so much, why don't you go live there?" 

From where I'm sitting, things are looking a bit volatile over there.  I'm reminded of 2004 in America, which is never a good thing to be reminded of.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Honestly, I would like to believe that Israel should fucking know better.

Given their history, what on Earth would lead you to believe anything of the kind?

I would LIKE to, but I won't.

The whole construct of that country is bullshit.

So is ours.  Not the point.

The point is how they act NOW.

Members of the forum should probably refrain from bringing up our current treatment of Native Americans, on account of my American Exceptionalism™, so shut up.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Within internal discourse, yes, this has become a standard argument you basically hear any time you criticize anything the government or army does. Okay, when it's about how the government's policies even fuck over Israeli Jews, you hear this less, but still sometimes. ("If you hate it so much here, why not go live in Syria?")

"If you love refugees so much, why don't you go live there?" 

From where I'm sitting, things are looking a bit volatile over there.  I'm reminded of 2004 in America, which is never a good thing to be reminded of.

I maintain my response to that, and recommend it to Verbl:

"Because this is my home.  YOU get the fuck out."

[Suu]

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Yeah, not really convincing me of the rightness of this action with those red herrings.

My policy of A PLAGUE ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES seems to still be the best possible option.

It certainly seems so.  I tend to be a bit more sympathetic to the Palestinians than Israelis, as a rule, because of the massive power disparity between the two, but I don't for a minute think it would be any different if the Palestinians had American military support and a state with which to oppress the Israelis.  Also the history of the Jewish people really means the Israeli state should know fucking better, but apparently that is not the case.

That's what I meant.

Then I remember the meaningless revolts they pulled on the Romans and what happened then. Not that you should judge the entire Jewish faith on the crackheads, but the crackheads ain't helping the cause, here. Zionists = crackheads.

So Israeli defenders of this action are essentially saying they should be held to the same standards as a shaky military dictatorship with a political leadership made up of religious extremists or a man butchering his own civilian population?

Within internal discourse, yes, this has become a standard argument you basically hear any time you criticize anything the government or army does. Okay, when it's about how the government's policies even fuck over Israeli Jews, you hear this less, but still sometimes. ("If you hate it so much here, why not go live in Syria?")

"If you love refugees so much, why don't you go live there?" 

From where I'm sitting, things are looking a bit volatile over there.  I'm reminded of 2004 in America, which is never a good thing to be reminded of.

"If you hate America so much, move to Canada." ?

[Verbal Mike]

VERBL, to what extent do you think these refugees are being denied entry due to the upsurge in anti-African racism and violence in Israel?  I notice there have been some...disturbing incidents lately, which seem to comfirm that justifying states in ethnoreligious rather than civic terms leads to racism and ethnic conflict.

I think the treatment of this particular bunch of refugees is just an extension of the government racists' rhetoric.
The upsurge in racism and violence was directly encouraged by members of the coalition (particularly notorious racist MK Ben-Ari and notorious idiot MK Regev) and by Minister of Interior Yishai.
From what I've read, there appear to be two main reasons. First, this concerning the entire coalition, the more headlines are about Africans, the less lefties are busy condemning destructive socio-economic policy; instead we're talking about people who much of the public doesn't care about in the first place, as usual, as we used to do when we only talked about the Palestinians.
Second, this concerning probably only Yishai and a few other key people, the influx of Africans has been undercutting the cheap labor import industry, by which you take some absurd sum from a poor southeast Asian, bring them to Israel, and get the Ministry of Interior to let them work there...for a while. It's a turning-door system by which they're usually only legal for a year or two, then they stay illegally but their spot is filled in the next batch of legal migrant workers nonetheless. And apparently Yishai gets some important kind of support, possibly even bribes, from this industry. Starving Africans mean even cheaper labor is available, and worse yet, they get imported by Egyptian smugglers rather than Israeli "businessmen".
So obviously, something has to be done about these filthy foreigners who come, push down real-estate prices, take our jobs, rape our women, and spread diseases. Think about the families!

[Verbal Mike]

I maintain my response to that, and recommend it to Verbl:

"Because this is my home.  YOU get the fuck out."

Yup. I try to remember to say that, but I have the disadvantage of actually living in Germany for the past five years, and in any case I tend to instead lecture them on my right to speak out against injustice and stuff like that... Frankly, it's no wonder the Israeli Left is in demise, we have a culture of being total losers in political debates.