How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No, self defense skills won't make you feel safer against anyone larger than you, and they won't stop assholes from beginning unrequested conversations... but they are still handy to have.

And no Luna, it's not considered OK for a man to interrupt a woman who's obviously engaged in a book, but people obviously do it anyway.  People tend to do what they think they can get away with.  The shitty thing is most of these guys likely think they are doing nothing wrong.

Getting interrupted while reading on public tranportation is pretty 50/50 for me, women do it too: 'OH HI, YOU LIKE TO READ? I DON'T READ MUCH MY DAUGHTER LOVES TO READ THOUGH THAT'S HER IN THIS PICTURE AND THIS OTHER ONE IS MY SON IN LAW AND THIS IS MY GRANDBAYBEE..." 

But yeah, men do it for shitty reasons.

[Verbal Mike]

Individual men, sure, but not adult men as a whole. This goes way too deep. It's a matter of assumptions, expectations – the kind of thing people aren't usually conscious of.

That's why I say it has to be done locally, with peer pressure.

Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. I'm just saying that I see no reason for optimism regarding significant change on a large scale.

[Juana]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

X-posting reply from FaceSpace where I saw this 5 mins ago.

Having to deal with that bullshit from men is all kinds of not awesome.

That said, I have a hard time sometimes working out what's expected; the last three anecdotes I've read about 'if I'm reading and a guy comes up and talks to me...' have ended with

-"People seem to want to talk to you if you read so I like to read and hope someone starts a conversation"

then

-"I don't mind if you're talking about the content of the book, but don't just talk to me about 'what are you reading?'

and then

"If I'm reading DON'T TALK TO ME I'M AVOIDING YOU'.

So sometimes I do find it a bit unclear what's appropriate. That said, I suspect the public transport (ie, context) had a lot to do with it.

It seems quite clear to me.

If someone clearly asserts that they do not want to talk with you, move the fuck on.

What's so murky and difficult about that?

Reread, yo.

Talking about starting conversations, not 'what should I do if she tells me to fuck off'. I have a fairly good idea what to do if someone tells me to fuck off.

If you're on a commute and you see the same person over and over again, it might be appropriate to make eye contact and smile, or otherwise register recognition.

If you're on a commute and someone is holding a book but stops reading to smile and make eye contact, it might be appropriate to strike up a conversation.

If you're on a commute and someone you've never seen before is reading a book and does not pause to look up and smile, leave them alone.

If you're on a commute and someone you've seen before is reading a book and does not pause to look up and smile, leave them alone.

These are basic social skills. Making eye contact and smiling is an invitation for more interaction in any setting.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It seems like this kind of thing can only change by the way we teach young men how to interact with women... the adult men at this point are probably a lost cause... or am I being a hopeless pessimist?

I think you're being a pessimist.  Most people don't want to be the creep.  Most people don't want to be the coward who stands by.  They just don't know how not to be those things.

This.

[Juana]

Although I'll note that women/females are encouraged to be polite, sweet, and friendly at all times, even when we're uncomfortable, so make sure you read their expression carefully. But if they make contact first, you're probably good.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm not sure Hoopla's being too pessimistic. Our culture really does train men to consider themselves entitled to female attention (Cracked had a pretty good piece with some good points on this) and I doubt the attitude of the older parts of the population can be significantly changed in any way. Individual men, sure, but not adult men as a whole. This goes way too deep. It's a matter of assumptions, expectations – the kind of thing people aren't usually conscious of.

So yes, we need to create a lot of social pressure to change this, but I don't think we can expect that pressure to re-educate adults, only to make them a little more scared of being pieces of shit because of the repercussions.

And also, this. I do think culture is changing among the very young, at least in some regions, and possibly more widely thanks to the Internet.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

No, self defense skills won't make you feel safer against anyone larger than you, and they won't stop assholes from beginning unrequested conversations... but they are still handy to have.

And no Luna, it's not considered OK for a man to interrupt a woman who's obviously engaged in a book, but people obviously do it anyway.  People tend to do what they think they can get away with.  The shitty thing is most of these guys likely think they are doing nothing wrong.

Getting interrupted while reading on public tranportation is pretty 50/50 for me, women do it too: 'OH HI, YOU LIKE TO READ? I DON'T READ MUCH MY DAUGHTER LOVES TO READ THOUGH THAT'S HER IN THIS PICTURE AND THIS OTHER ONE IS MY SON IN LAW AND THIS IS MY GRANDBAYBEE..." 

But yeah, men do it for shitty reasons.

Women do it too, but guaranteed, unless they're mentally ill, if you say "I'm sorry, I really want to read my book" they WILL apologize, maybe be embarrassed, and leave you alone. They won't get angry at you for rebuffing them, which men almost always will. As if you're wrong for not wanting to talk to them. It's like they feel insulted... I've had many, many guys say "Oh, so I'm not as interesting as a book". It's like I just stabbed them in the penis and called them undesirable. Women generally don't act personally rejected when you tell them you'd rather read, but guys seem to feel wounded and rejected, even put down. And they want an explanation. They'll ask if it's for homework, for a work assignment, or some other reading I have to do. They'll act like they want reassurance that it's not really that I would rather read a book than talk to them. What makes it scary is that you never know when you'll get one with anger issues, who'll go off on you and call you names.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Although I'll note that women/females are encouraged to be polite, sweet, and friendly at all times, even when we're uncomfortable, so make sure you read their expression carefully. But if they make contact first, you're probably good.

Fuck, yes. I HATE that conditioning. I have a bad, bad case of it, and I've been working for much of my adult life, but especially in the last three years, to overcome it.

Girls are conditioned from birth, not only by their parents but by the social contract, to BE NICE. This is why we care so much about being liked. A huge part of what society perceives as our basic human value is wrapped up in BEING NICE. It is astonishingly hard to overcome this; I've seen women have massive, shaking, sweating, adrenaline-fueled anxiety attacks about just the idea of saying no to someone who asks them to do something they don't want to do.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Thanks for posting this, Net.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Although I'll note that women/females are encouraged to be polite, sweet, and friendly at all times, even when we're uncomfortable, so make sure you read their expression carefully. But if they make contact first, you're probably good.

Fuck, yes. I HATE that conditioning. I have a bad, bad case of it, and I've been working for much of my adult life, but especially in the last three years, to overcome it.

Girls are conditioned from birth, not only by their parents but by the social contract, to BE NICE. This is why we care so much about being liked. A huge part of what society perceives as our basic human value is wrapped up in BEING NICE. It is astonishingly hard to overcome this; I've seen women have massive, shaking, sweating, adrenaline-fueled anxiety attacks about just the idea of saying no to someone who asks them to do something they don't want to do.

One of the reasons I married my wife is because she knows when NOT to be nice.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

No, self defense skills won't make you feel safer against anyone larger than you, and they won't stop assholes from beginning unrequested conversations... but they are still handy to have.

And no Luna, it's not considered OK for a man to interrupt a woman who's obviously engaged in a book, but people obviously do it anyway.  People tend to do what they think they can get away with.  The shitty thing is most of these guys likely think they are doing nothing wrong.

Getting interrupted while reading on public tranportation is pretty 50/50 for me, women do it too: 'OH HI, YOU LIKE TO READ? I DON'T READ MUCH MY DAUGHTER LOVES TO READ THOUGH THAT'S HER IN THIS PICTURE AND THIS OTHER ONE IS MY SON IN LAW AND THIS IS MY GRANDBAYBEE..." 

But yeah, men do it for shitty reasons.

Women do it too, but guaranteed, unless they're mentally ill, if you say "I'm sorry, I really want to read my book" they WILL apologize, maybe be embarrassed, and leave you alone. They won't get angry at you for rebuffing them, which men almost always will. As if you're wrong for not wanting to talk to them. It's like they feel insulted... I've had many, many guys say "Oh, so I'm not as interesting as a book". It's like I just stabbed them in the penis and called them undesirable. Women generally don't act personally rejected when you tell them you'd rather read, but guys seem to feel wounded and rejected, even put down. And they want an explanation. They'll ask if it's for homework, for a work assignment, or some other reading I have to do. They'll act like they want reassurance that it's not really that I would rather read a book than talk to them. What makes it scary is that you never know when you'll get one with anger issues, who'll go off on you and call you names.

True.

Another one I've gotten from men OVER AND OVER (the stupid ones) is "you've got it upside down" or some other variation of "you can't read".

The equivalent of "you're an illiterate retard" is supposed to be a PICKUP LINE?

WTF kind of response do they expect? (Other than "fuck off."  ) "Teehee, you're so witty, let me put down this boring old book while you ask me a bunch of questions that are none of your fucking business about what I do and if I'm married and when and where you can fuck me!"

"Fuck off" is WAY more fun. 

[Cain]

I've had many, many guys say "Oh, so I'm not as interesting as a book".

Most people, regardless of gender, are actually much less interesting than a book.

The kind of books I read, anyway, I can't speak for the great train-riding masses.

[Salty]

See, now if this was an altercation between two men most people would recognize the other is bullying and being a total dick. Yet with women it's just the way you do things, apparently.

A lot of guys just don't realize that they aren't the first one's to try and talk to them about what is probably eventually sex. The trouble is, if you give women enough breathing room they're as eager for sex as anyone else.

But when you step out of your door to get the mail and someone offers you pork pie, and then you go down to the gym and someone offers you pork pie, and your boss subtly offers you pork pie for lunch, and you get an offer for pork pie when you pick your car up from the shop, you damned well don't want any god damned pork pie when you get off of work. It doesn't matter if you like pork pie or not.

[Juana]

Bless Alty's post.