How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[Signora Pæsior]

I know this face... who is this?!

[Freeky]

Nice.  are you eating...


PILLZ HERE?

[hooplala]

Nice.  are you eating...


PILLZ HERE?

POPCORN!  pink popcorn.

That's me, Signora  and Net, sorry for threadjacking...

[East Coast Hustle]

Absolutely. If it's the same reasons why, then, yes, you'd be correct. But I don't think they are the same reasons.

Do physical assaults for some reasons hurt less than physical assaults for other reasons? Which reasons cause the most painful assaults?

You DO realize that what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous, right?

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Also it covers something important; educating people against bystander effect is evidenced to reduce the prevalence.

Unfortunately, people are conditioned to avoid conflict, so education can only have a limited effect.  You don't fight conditioning with well-reasoned arguments, you fight it by using other conditioning as a lever.

Yes, the people most likely to intervene seem to be people whose jobs have conditioned them to get involved in such situations - police, paramedics, firefighters etc (in my personal experience - no dount there are some other jobs too).  While education certainly can help overcome the diffusion of responsibility, it cannot necessarily help with the "avoid conflict" effect.

Mostly people trained to react, I'd think.  Most times I've seen people get involved - even in non-threatening situations - it turned out that they were ex-military, off-duty cops, etc.

The people I used to hang out with as a teenager were probably the exception, but none of them or their families were from any of those backgrounds and they always stepped up when something was happening. One of them ran up and tried to knock some other kids out of the way of an oncoming car. He didn't make it in time - three people were killed - and he probably has back problems to this day for his trouble since he ended up getting knocked back by the car, but he knows he didn't stand there with his finger in his ass. Every time I've had the correct reaction, I can credit it to having been around these people. If you SEE people do it, you can lose that inhibition.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

I both agree and disagree with this post. I agree that men are far more likely to be assaulted in public than women are, and also that humans are largely ignorant shitheads. However, I disagree that the scenario linked to in the OP has nothing to do with sexism, or with the entitlement many men seem to have to women's time and attention.

[Signora Pæsior]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

Yeah, because if something also happens to men, even if it is arguably for different reasons, then it's not a feminist issue anymore.

LOL okay.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

Yeah, because if something also happens to men, even if it is arguably for different reasons, then it's not a feminist issue anymore.

LOL okay.

OK then, by that logic every single thing ever is a feminist issue. Including crazy people on the subway. Am I the only one that didn't miss the part of the story where the guy was OBVIOUSLY CRAZY? I don't know if you guys have just never been in a city or something, but crazy people harass other people on the subway every single day. Reading that story and perceiving it as an example of an otherwise normal guy who is just a dick to women who don't talk to him takes some cognitive dissonance that I'm not capable of.

This thread reeks of "Feminism: The Uniform", which is no less dreary and tiresome than any other "-ism: The Uniform".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

[Freeky]

I think I'm going to put my two cents in.

Femininjas, you have a strong point that women are expected to endure convo on the bus with dudes and girls who want to fuck you at some point.

Ech and peeps who have expressed this sentiment only not word for word, you also have a point in that A) this kind if thing happens to everyone, regardless of gender, and for the most part reasons, and also that people (you include yourself or already do) should do something if anyone is in trouble.

Ech, you spoke of the person in the park who targeted men to rape, and how you couldn't stand to live like that re: that's how women always have to think/feel.

I think this argument is based out of misconceptions and not knowing when to change filters, and having an "either/or" argument. This should really be looked through several lends and examined carefully through each, or not,  depending on what you want your discussion to include because for the most part of can be applied to a number of apt filters.

One thing you have to remember though is that the writer is writing through a specific lens, namely patriarch isn't anyone's friend or the like. Your best interpretation and conclusions drawn will be the one which you apply the same lens. Changing lenses around would most def provide a lot of insight

And finally, a lot of ladies who use the sexism argument for an issue like this are viewing it through that lens as a default. It isn't that we're trying to make everything about feminism (mine, anyway) it's that this is our defense mechanism.

What I'm getting ay is everyone who isn't feeling flexible should at least try on a few other lenses. It's what were supposed to be moderately good at as disco spags, yes?

[Signora Pæsior]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

Yeah basically what Nigel said.

Also, ECH, am I the only one that didn't miss the part of the story where the OP is approached, harassed, and/or propositioned on at least 50% of her commutes?

Without fail, I am aggressively approached by men on at least half of these commutes.  The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible, when the train is not crowded and there are many empty rows.  Sometimes an overly friendly arm is draped over the railing behind me, or they attempt to lean in close to talk to me as if we are old friends.  Without fail, the man or boy in question will lean to close and ask me

What are you reading?
Is that a good book?
What's that book about?

This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation.  If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me.  If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me.  Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

As Nigel said, crazy bike dude is a fucking extreme example, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it happens in a hundred little ways to a significant number of women every single day.

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

Well yeah, but none of that has anything to do with the story this thread is based on. I mean, if we're at the point where ANYTHING unpleasant that ever happens becomes a misogynist act if it happens between a man and a woman, then I guess I just don't see the point of any of it. I thought that Feminism was something you used to try to counteract ACTUAL REAL power imbalance and inequality between genders. Equating the story in the OP to feminism seems to me no different than, say, reading an account of a fight between two men on a bus and deciding that it's due to racism solely because one combatant was white and one was black.

[Signora Pæsior]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

Well yeah, but none of that has anything to do with the story this thread is based on. I mean, if we're at the point where ANYTHING unpleasant that ever happens becomes a misogynist act if it happens between a man and a woman, then I guess I just don't see the point of any of it. I thought that Feminism was something you used to try to counteract ACTUAL REAL power imbalance and inequality between genders. Equating the story in the OP to feminism seems to me no different than, say, reading an account of a fight between two men on a bus and deciding that it's due to racism solely because one combatant was white and one was black.

You know, there are multiple instances in this very thread of people describing why the cultural and societal expectations placed on women, and the entitlement men feel to a woman's time and attention no matter how she may feel about it, are indicative of an "actual real power imbalance and inequality between genders". Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not there.