How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

Yeah basically what Nigel said.

Also, ECH, am I the only one that didn't miss the part of the story where the OP is approached, harassed, and/or propositioned on at least 50% of her commutes?

Without fail, I am aggressively approached by men on at least half of these commutes.  The most common approach is to walk up to where I am sitting with body language that practically screams LEAVE ME ALONE and sit down next to me or as close to me as possible, when the train is not crowded and there are many empty rows.  Sometimes an overly friendly arm is draped over the railing behind me, or they attempt to lean in close to talk to me as if we are old friends.  Without fail, the man or boy in question will lean to close and ask me

What are you reading?
Is that a good book?
What's that book about?

This serves the double purpose of getting my attention and trapping me in a conversation.  If I stop reading the book I enjoy to talk to you, random stranger, you hit on me or just stay way too close to me.  If I tell you to leave me alone, you get mad at me.  Because I somehow, as a woman, owe you conversation.

As Nigel said, crazy bike dude is a fucking extreme example, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it happens in a hundred little ways to a significant number of women every single day.

You say extreme example, I say completely wrong example that is so far off-base that it's dumb to even use it for illustrative purposes because it obviously seems to be obscuring whatever point is actually being made.

"This happens in usually benign but incredibly pervasive and demoralizing ways all the damn time" is far more effective at advancing the message than "OMG CRAZY MAN SCREAMING ON LA METRO = OPPRESSION BY THE PATRIARCHY!"

[East Coast Hustle]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

Well yeah, but none of that has anything to do with the story this thread is based on. I mean, if we're at the point where ANYTHING unpleasant that ever happens becomes a misogynist act if it happens between a man and a woman, then I guess I just don't see the point of any of it. I thought that Feminism was something you used to try to counteract ACTUAL REAL power imbalance and inequality between genders. Equating the story in the OP to feminism seems to me no different than, say, reading an account of a fight between two men on a bus and deciding that it's due to racism solely because one combatant was white and one was black.

You know, there are multiple instances in this very thread of people describing why the cultural and societal expectations placed on women, and the entitlement men feel to a woman's time and attention no matter how she may feel about it, are indicative of an "actual real power imbalance and inequality between genders". Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not there.

You either didn't read my posts or you're trying to goad me, since there's no way that anything I said could be reasonably interpreted that way. Especially since I, y'know, directly acknowledged the very real imbalance in a post you seem to be trying to use as evidence that I don't acknowledge the imbalance.

[East Coast Hustle]

I also still STRENUOUSLY object to the previous implication that because I am a man I am not qualified to so much as have an opinion as to whether something is or is not relevant to feminism.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

But how "socially sanctioned" IS that stuff in a public place?

Some guy starts, we tell him to fuck off, he calls us bitches under his breath. His day is ruined, not ours. "LOL I LAFFS HE CRIES".

If he KEEPS calling us bitches, NOBODY wants to hear it. I've had guys thrown out of libraries, bars, and yes, off of buses. I'm sure you've done similar. "LOL I LAFFS HE CRIES".

Wasn't the point of feminism to make US stronger instead of acting like helpless little things who jes' cain't do nothin' cuz we warn't raised to be rude to menfolks?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I dunno, I get what she's saying but really, I'd get harrassed like that too on the LA Metro.

Sure, but not quite in the same way. If you're reading and indicate no interest in the person trying to talk to you, they'd probably back off, yeah? Women/females can't bank on that.

Nope. I've had plenty of yahoos who push the conversation. TBH, I think that lumping this sort of thing under the blanket of feminism is doing feminism a disservice. This is just another piece of evidence that humans are largely ignorant shitheads regardless of gender. And before anyone trots out the "yeah, but it's SCARY when it happens to me!" trope, I've got $5 that says that if you break down the statistics of who gets assaulted by men on public transit and cross-reference with percentage of ridership by gender, you'll find that I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to be physically assaulted by some jerkoff on the bus/train/whatever than you are.

Oh, well if you say it's not relevant to feminism...

Oh, wait, sorry. Crazy people harassing other people on the friggin' Los Angeles Metro is TOTALLY a feminist issue, and I should be ashamed of my penis-having self for suggesting otherwise.

I've seen elderly men walking around with their eyes blacked and their teeth knocked out because somebody wanted their shoes or their wallet. I guess they don't count.

Wow, you guys are off on a serious tangent, and using some of that old strawman hyperbole to dismiss a legitimate feminist complaint about male entitlement, pushiness, and anger when it comes to getting attention from women.

Yes, there are assaults on men; man-on-man violence is a big problem. And yes, there are crazy people on the subway who will harass anybody. These things are true, and they are serious issues. However, using them to try to detract from the issue at hand is kinda lame. The reality is, a woman, especially a pretty, young woman, is likely to be approached literally dozens of times each day by a hopeful stranger trying to get laid, and because of our cultural structure, he doesn't even have to be crazy to feel justified in getting verbally abusive if she rebuffs him. So, yeah, bike guy was an extreme example, and a good illustration for that reason... but a shit ton of guys will just call you a bitch under their breaths, or continue to push for "a good reason" you don't want to talk to them, or behave in ways that are personally objectionable but socially sanctioned. I don't mean, once such encounter every six months, either... I mean, if you are an attractive young woman and you commute, you can expect to have at least one such encounter, usually more, every single day of your life. It's not just that it's threatening, it's that it's exhausting.

That should change.

But how "socially sanctioned" IS that stuff in a public place?

Some guy starts, we tell him to fuck off, he calls us bitches under his breath. His day is ruined, not ours. "LOL I LAFFS HE CRIES".

If he KEEPS calling us bitches, NOBODY wants to hear it. I've had guys thrown out of libraries, bars, and yes, off of buses. I'm sure you've done similar. "LOL I LAFFS HE CRIES".

Wasn't the point of feminism to make US stronger instead of acting like helpless little things who jes' cain't do nothin' cuz we warn't raised to be rude to menfolks?

How did you get that from my post? Or from anything I've posted? The whole point of the dialogue is culture change, in multiple ways, including outgrowing the "be nice" conditioning (culturally, not just individually) AND outgrowing the reinforcement and acceptance of male entitlement (culturally, not just individually).

And while it would be nice to imagine that "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me", the reality we live in is that having anger directed at us does have an effect, both psychologically and physiologically. Stress hurts.

[Epimetheus]

Individual men, sure, but not adult men as a whole. This goes way too deep. It's a matter of assumptions, expectations – the kind of thing people aren't usually conscious of.

That's why I say it has to be done locally, with peer pressure.

I get this. And I see how it could work,
But I also see that aggressive accusations to the effect of "something's wrong with YOU because you don't want to talk to me" are symptoms of insecurity, and so if yet another person added on to the "just leave her alone, dude," the subject would simply devolve further and go "well fuck ALL OF YOU something's wrong with ALL OF YOU." it could push them further into their delusion of entitlement.
Digging in their heels, and all that.

[Freeky]

I also still STRENUOUSLY object to the previous implication that because I am a man I am not qualified to so much as have an opinion as to whether something is or is not relevant to feminism.

Dunno ifthis was aimed at me. Kind.day o. And out here. If it wad, I was implying the opposite. You have an awesome and rare lens in you dissection repertoire a lot of guys don't.

Also I was remind.song everyone that you guys are basically on the same page but with different lenses.

[Epimetheus]

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

but

there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

???

[East Coast Hustle]

I also still STRENUOUSLY object to the previous implication that because I am a man I am not qualified to so much as have an opinion as to whether something is or is not relevant to feminism.

Dunno ifthis was aimed at me. Kind.day o. And out here. If it wad, I was implying the opposite. You have an awesome and rare lens in you dissection repertoire a lot of guys don't.

Also I was remind.song everyone that you guys are basically on the same page but with different lenses.

Not at all. It was aimed squarely at Mrs. Paes.

[Freeky]

Cool beans

[Epimetheus]

People are crazy assholes about different things. Some people are crazy assholes about their politics or religion. Some people are crazy assholes about the Illuminati. Some people are crazy assholes about being entitled to women's interest.

But just because they're crazy assholes doesn't mean there isn't a SECOND problem involved, which is the spread of the ideology they are an asshole about.

Just like we don't say Ray Comfort is just an example of a crazy asshole and doesn't have anything to do with a deeper societal issue of dishonesty and denial of science and groupthink,
we can't say this crazy bicycle man is JUST a crazy asshole and doesn't reveal an issue of men thinking they're entitled to women's interest.

once again, i'm hoping my posts make any sense at all.

[East Coast Hustle]

Cool beans

Even if you HAD been trying to say that, that sentiment would fall so far outside my (admittedly very limited) frame of reference for you that I would have erroneously interpreted it the other way.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

but

there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

???

What's the problem? Are you reading those comments as contradictory? They're not.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

but

there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

???

In fact, let's just get rid of those quotes and see if it makes any more sense to you this way:

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss, but there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

[Epimetheus]

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss.

but

there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

???

In fact, let's just get rid of those quotes and see if it makes any more sense to you this way:

If you can't tell when someone would be okay with the idea of talking with you, best to give it a miss, but there's no crime in attempting a conversation.

I realize they can fit together.
I guess I'm looking for an explanation of the first in light of the second. Why is it best not to try a conversation, if there's nothing wrong with doing so?