How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ugliness makes creepers worse, but an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad, since it's a little disconcerting. I think a lot of people tend to except that attractive people have better social manners than that.

[Epimetheus]

so what makes the attractive person creepy?  They place he chose to hit on someone?  Subway interactions are uncategorically off the table? 

That's what I was getting from Nigel, Luna, and Stella - socialization should only be happening in places where people specifically go to socialize. Transportation therefore doesn't count.

If I understood correctly.

[Verbal Mike]

I'd also add that while on a societal level, yeah, some people can be tagged objectively as attractive, when you're talking about a person judging themselves, you can't really expect remotely similar objectivity. In other words, a lot more people think of themselves as universally attractive than actually are, and this is good for their mental health on some level. But the meme that being attractive gives you a (relative) pass for approaching strangers in weird contexts is probably nothing new, and seems like part of the problem.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

so what makes the attractive person creepy?  They place he chose to hit on someone?  Subway interactions are uncategorically off the table? 

That's what I was getting from Nigel, Luna, and Stella - socialization should only be happening in places where people specifically go to socialize. Transportation therefore doesn't count.

If I understood correctly.

This makes no sense to me. Humans are social animals, anytime there are two or more people present in any place, there is a nonzero probability of socialization. Some people can even make socialization happen when they are all by themselves.

Seriously though, I am not allowed to speak a word to my fellow humans anywhere but in a bar or a club or at a party? This seems to severely limit the range of possibility and people you're ever likely to meet. For one, I do not go to clubs or bars or parties, because they are loud and filled with obnoxious douchebags. Does that mean I'm not allowed to meet anyone new?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'd also add that while on a societal level, yeah, some people can be tagged objectively as attractive, when you're talking about a person judging themselves, you can't really expect remotely similar objectivity. In other words, a lot more people think of themselves as universally attractive than actually are, and this is good for their mental health on some level. But the meme that being attractive gives you a (relative) pass for approaching strangers in weird contexts is probably nothing new, and seems like part of the problem.

It certainly muddies the situation.

As do the following ideas:

1.  People who talk to strangers are automatically creepers.
2.  Ugly people are by definition worse creepers.
3.  Attractive people have better social skills.  This is counter-intuitive.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

^^^ Mostly that, with the exception of people who verge on grotesque. People have visceral reactions to that which is severely ugly. Not something you can help. Ugliness makes creepers worse, but an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad, since it's a little disconcerting. I think a lot of people tend to except that attractive people have better social manners than that.
Although I've also found that attractive people are more presumptuous about their ability to steal others' time and attention than a plainer person and get more butthurt and nasty when they're rejected (the immediate result is "you're fugly anyway/such a bitch/why would anyone want you anyway/etc.").

I'm not sure what the bolded means exactly, but it stuck out to me.

Let's be honest, it's not really all THAT subjective.  While Tom Cruise might not be everyone's taste, I think we can all agree if you place him next to Christopher Lloyd its not difficult to grasp which one might be more universally accepted as "good looking"... AMIRITE?

But having said that, it IS interesting to note that both Garbo and Stella agreed on seemingly good-looking guys hitting on women in the subway as creepier than ugly guys doing it.  But then Garbo said "an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad" - so what makes the attractive person creepy?  They place he chose to hit on someone?  Subway interactions are uncategorically off the table?  If Michael Fassbender approached and asked -ever so suavely- which way to Grand Central and, oh, what are you reading? I do adore the idea that the printed word is not dead... you would be squicked out?

I'd wonder what the fuck Michael Fassbender was doing on the BUS and figure he must have picked up heroin or something. 

Seriously, a lot of what constitutes "creepy" is acting like a starving dog. If he asked "ever so suavely" and then DISENGAGED, I might hope to run into him again someplace and continue the conversation. If he continued to push his case, yes, I'd be squicked out.

[LMNO]

Ok, hold up.


Can we just flatly say that these are GUIDELINES, and not RULES?  I can already see some people heading into "...but this one time I was on a train and..." territory.

We are not stupid people.  Most of us have a fairly reasonable grasp on social cues, or at least basic modes of politeness.

IN GENERAL, if a person is in a non-social setting and appears to not want to be bothered, don't bother them.

If you appear to be in a context where the above guideline does not apply and you decide to bother someone, immediately apologize and back the fuck off if they aren't interested.



How can this really be so hard to figure out?

[Epimetheus]

This makes no sense to me. Humans are social animals, anytime there are two or more people present in any place, there is a nonzero probability of socialization. Some people can even make socialization happen when they are all by themselves.

Seriously though, I am not allowed to speak a word to my fellow humans anywhere but in a bar or a club or at a party? This seems to severely limit the range of possibility and people you're ever likely to meet. For one, I do not go to clubs or bars or parties, because they are loud and filled with obnoxious douchebags. Does that mean I'm not allowed to meet anyone new?

It was made specifically clear that it's not wrong to communicate. It's just not a place to make friends. Here, read the posts yourself, and go back to the ones before it too if you're interested.

You are putting your desire to make friends with strangers on the bus ahead of other people's desire and right to not be pestered on their morning commute. That's either creepy, or retarded, take your pick.

Join some clubs, find some activity groups if you want to make friends. Go to parties. Don't try to make friends with strangers on the bus. You know who wants to make friends with strangers on the bus? Retarded people. Think about it.

I already mentioned exceptions to this. If you see the same person over and over again on the bus, and they start to greet you, then shit, strike up a conversation.

It's not wrong to hope for strangers to strike up conversation on the bus; note that Stella said "people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles." "Tend to be in" is not "are always in". But if you are seriously so socially hard up that you're putting a lot of hope into meeting people on a bus ride, you REALLY need to find some social outlets.

Do it in a social milieu - a club, a party, facebook, someplace people go with the INTENT of socializing. Not public transportation.

[AFK]

I'm having a little trouble with the idea that attractive people are expected to have better social manners.  If that is a common perception among people, it is obviously incorrect, not to mention somewhat prejudiced. 

[tyrannosaurus vex]

This makes no sense to me. Humans are social animals, anytime there are two or more people present in any place, there is a nonzero probability of socialization. Some people can even make socialization happen when they are all by themselves.

Seriously though, I am not allowed to speak a word to my fellow humans anywhere but in a bar or a club or at a party? This seems to severely limit the range of possibility and people you're ever likely to meet. For one, I do not go to clubs or bars or parties, because they are loud and filled with obnoxious douchebags. Does that mean I'm not allowed to meet anyone new?

It was made specifically clear that it's not wrong to communicate. It's just not a place to make friends. Here, read the posts yourself, and go back to the ones before it too if you're interested.

You are putting your desire to make friends with strangers on the bus ahead of other people's desire and right to not be pestered on their morning commute. That's either creepy, or retarded, take your pick.

Join some clubs, find some activity groups if you want to make friends. Go to parties. Don't try to make friends with strangers on the bus. You know who wants to make friends with strangers on the bus? Retarded people. Think about it.

I already mentioned exceptions to this. If you see the same person over and over again on the bus, and they start to greet you, then shit, strike up a conversation.

It's not wrong to hope for strangers to strike up conversation on the bus; note that Stella said "people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles." "Tend to be in" is not "are always in". But if you are seriously so socially hard up that you're putting a lot of hope into meeting people on a bus ride, you REALLY need to find some social outlets.

Do it in a social milieu - a club, a party, facebook, someplace people go with the INTENT of socializing. Not public transportation.

Right, well, I'm not going to be held to the "if you're not at a club, just shut up and don't say anything"  thing, but I don't think that's necessarily what was being said. I think it's obviously annoying and creepy to bug somebody who doesn't want to interact with you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't say anything at all to anyone outside a "socialization zone." Lots of people meet on the bus, or at the supermarket, or whatever. Social interaction isn't inherently creepy or universally unwanted (I mean, somebody had to talk to somebody outside of a party to get the idea to throw the first party, right?). But I guess the point is moot since if two people are mutually receptive to socializing, then signals will be given and no one will be considered a creep.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I think a reasonably good looking person would have more experience with social interaction than, say, a 400 lb. basement dweller, but that doesn't mean they learned anything from it.

[Freeky]

Ok, hold up.


Can we just flatly say that these are GUIDELINES, and not RULES?  I can already see some people heading into "...but this one time I was on a train and..." territory.

We are not stupid people.  Most of us have a fairly reasonable grasp on social cues, or at least basic modes of politeness.

IN GENERAL, if a person is in a non-social setting and appears to not want to be bothered, don't bother them.

If you appear to be in a context where the above guideline does not apply and you decide to bother someone, immediately apologize and back the fuck off if they aren't interested.

How can this really be so hard to figure out?

This x national debt.

[hooplala]

I'm having a little trouble with the idea that attractive people are expected to have better social manners.  If that is a common perception among people, it is obviously incorrect, not to mention somewhat prejudiced.

See?  Without dialogue, no one learns anything, no one looks at their beliefs, and nothing can change. Stagnation is death.

[Epimetheus]

I think it's obviously annoying and creepy to bug somebody who doesn't want to interact with you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't say anything at all to anyone outside a "socialization zone." Lots of people meet on the bus, or at the supermarket, or whatever. Social interaction isn't inherently creepy or universally unwanted (I mean, somebody had to talk to somebody outside of a party to get the idea to throw the first party, right?). But I guess the point is moot since if two people are mutually receptive to socializing, then signals will be given and no one will be considered a creep.

Yeah, I think this is coming down to what LMNO said.

[Freeky]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.