How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what women go through

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

Sweet, I have a green light.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

This makes no sense to me. Humans are social animals, anytime there are two or more people present in any place, there is a nonzero probability of socialization. Some people can even make socialization happen when they are all by themselves.

Seriously though, I am not allowed to speak a word to my fellow humans anywhere but in a bar or a club or at a party? This seems to severely limit the range of possibility and people you're ever likely to meet. For one, I do not go to clubs or bars or parties, because they are loud and filled with obnoxious douchebags. Does that mean I'm not allowed to meet anyone new?

It was made specifically clear that it's not wrong to communicate. It's just not a place to make friends. Here, read the posts yourself, and go back to the ones before it too if you're interested.

You are putting your desire to make friends with strangers on the bus ahead of other people's desire and right to not be pestered on their morning commute. That's either creepy, or retarded, take your pick.

Join some clubs, find some activity groups if you want to make friends. Go to parties. Don't try to make friends with strangers on the bus. You know who wants to make friends with strangers on the bus? Retarded people. Think about it.

I already mentioned exceptions to this. If you see the same person over and over again on the bus, and they start to greet you, then shit, strike up a conversation.

It's not wrong to hope for strangers to strike up conversation on the bus; note that Stella said "people tend to be in "don't fuck with me" bubbles." "Tend to be in" is not "are always in". But if you are seriously so socially hard up that you're putting a lot of hope into meeting people on a bus ride, you REALLY need to find some social outlets.

Do it in a social milieu - a club, a party, facebook, someplace people go with the INTENT of socializing. Not public transportation.

Right, well, I'm not going to be held to the "if you're not at a club, just shut up and don't say anything"  thing, but I don't think that's necessarily what was being said. I think it's obviously annoying and creepy to bug somebody who doesn't want to interact with you, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't say anything at all to anyone outside a "socialization zone." Lots of people meet on the bus, or at the supermarket, or whatever. Social interaction isn't inherently creepy or universally unwanted (I mean, somebody had to talk to somebody outside of a party to get the idea to throw the first party, right?). But I guess the point is moot since if two people are mutually receptive to socializing, then signals will be given and no one will be considered a creep.

That plus what LMNO said about all of this being guidelines.

If you're getting proper eye contact, if she's fiddling with her hair, leaning towards you, etc., keep talking. If her posture says "fuck off", go away.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

...

If you're getting proper eye contact, if she's fiddling with her hair, leaning towards you, etc., keep talking. If her posture says "fuck off", go away.

This is perhaps the worst advice you could possibly give me.

[hooplala]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Here's how it generally works. You see a cute girl on the bus, you check each other out. If you are both of the opinion that the other is hawt the next thing that happens is eye contact - there's a whole fun, duck and dive, eye contact, body language dance thing. If nobody drops out this game then it's on. There will be an approach, there will be crap pick up lines exchanged. If someone drops out the eye contact game at any point then it's over.

People who don't understand this and fuck with the formula are in danger of being creepy, annoying and virgins for the rest of their existence. Biology designed it this way. It's dead simple. The ones who don't get it are unlikely to replicate. This is as it should be.

[LMNO]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

She's probably just looking for a bit more of the airbrush tool in Photoshop.

[Freeky]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

I'm torn between lulz, not sure if srs, and sadface for you. 

[Juana]

so what makes the attractive person creepy?  They place he chose to hit on someone?  Subway interactions are uncategorically off the table? 

That's what I was getting from Nigel, Luna, and Stella - socialization should only be happening in places where people specifically go to socialize. Transportation therefore doesn't count.

If I understood correctly.

It's a good rule of thumb, although if the other person initiates conversation, the dude is good to go as long as he doesn't try to steer the conversation into a place to talk her personal information (or whether or not she's got a partner) out of her.

Ugliness makes creepers worse, but an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad, since it's a little disconcerting. I think a lot of people tend to except that attractive people have better social manners than that.

What? I didn't say that I thought that was necessarily the correct thing to assume, because attractive people can be just as socially awkward or creepy as plainer ones (also, I tend to think being awkward is different than creepy; awkward comes with obvious bewilderment and uncertainty, while creepers come with the absolute assurance that the other person owes them something).

^^^ Mostly that, with the exception of people who verge on grotesque. People have visceral reactions to that which is severely ugly. Not something you can help. Ugliness makes creepers worse, but an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad, since it's a little disconcerting. I think a lot of people tend to except that attractive people have better social manners than that.
Although I've also found that attractive people are more presumptuous about their ability to steal others' time and attention than a plainer person and get more butthurt and nasty when they're rejected (the immediate result is "you're fugly anyway/such a bitch/why would anyone want you anyway/etc.").

I'm not sure what the bolded means exactly, but it stuck out to me.

Let's be honest, it's not really all THAT subjective.  While Tom Cruise might not be everyone's taste, I think we can all agree if you place him next to Christopher Lloyd its not difficult to grasp which one might be more universally accepted as "good looking"... AMIRITE?

But having said that, it IS interesting to note that both Garbo and Stella agreed on seemingly good-looking guys hitting on women in the subway as creepier than ugly guys doing it.  But then Garbo said "an attractive person who is creepy is almost as bad" - so what makes the attractive person creepy?  They place he chose to hit on someone?  Subway interactions are uncategorically off the table?  If Michael Fassbender approached and asked -ever so suavely- which way to Grand Central and, oh, what are you reading? I do adore the idea that the printed word is not dead... you would be squicked out?

It's not polite to assume someone owes anyone else their attention when they're busy. That's part of creepy behavior (as is the assumption that person A should be flattered by person B's attention, no matter what person A says).

People have very different tastes in what they find attractive, so no, I disagree.

Assuming person A owes person B their attention is creepy. Expecting them to be flattered by the things that person B says to them, no matter how degrading or personal, is creepy ("you'd look good all spread out on my bed"). Aggressive, possessive behavior toward person A is creepy. Invading personal space and ignoring verbal or non-verbal signals to back off is creepy (I dunno about you, but I can tell when I'm too close to someone and how far I need to back up to make them comfortable again). Asking excessively personal questions is creepy ("what size bra do you wear? Do you have a boyfriend? Can I be your sugar daddy?"). Person B telling person A about their personal habits is creepy ("Is it normal to jerk off three times a day?").

I have no idea who Michael Fassbender is, but if he interrupted me while I was busy reading and didn't take my polite brush off, then I'd think he was rude and he'd lose hot points (I don't actually have a points system, because that's kind of dehumanizing, but it works as a turn of phrase). If he acted creepy, yeah, I'd be squicked, he'd be massively less attractive than he first appeared, and I'd move at the first opportunity to pointedly move to some place near another woman/female.


Christ, I take my time in replying, and a twenty posts turn up. I'll respond to those tonight or something.

[hooplala]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

She's probably just looking for a bit more of the airbrush tool in Photoshop.

Ain't we all?

And yes everyone, obviously we all know how social interactions work... as Roger pointed out, we really aren't basement dwelling rejects here for the most part... I'm just trying to point out the privilege that attractive people are born with and benefit from.  This thread is about dialogue, right?

[hooplala]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

I'm torn between lulz, not sure if srs, and sadface for you. 

This is the correct answer.

[Verbal Mike]

I'd also add that while on a societal level, yeah, some people can be tagged objectively as attractive, when you're talking about a person judging themselves, you can't really expect remotely similar objectivity. In other words, a lot more people think of themselves as universally attractive than actually are, and this is good for their mental health on some level. But the meme that being attractive gives you a (relative) pass for approaching strangers in weird contexts is probably nothing new, and seems like part of the problem.

It certainly muddies the situation.

As do the following ideas:

1.  People who talk to strangers are automatically creepers.
2.  Ugly people are by definition worse creepers.
3.  Attractive people have better social skills.  This is counter-intuitive.

Absolutely.

Ok, hold up.


Can we just flatly say that these are GUIDELINES, and not RULES?  I can already see some people heading into "...but this one time I was on a train and..." territory.

We are not stupid people.  Most of us have a fairly reasonable grasp on social cues, or at least basic modes of politeness.

IN GENERAL, if a person is in a non-social setting and appears to not want to be bothered, don't bother them.

If you appear to be in a context where the above guideline does not apply and you decide to bother someone, immediately apologize and back the fuck off if they aren't interested.



How can this really be so hard to figure out?

Well, for everyone here, yeah, guidelines. But it seems like a good idea to also discuss how to transmit this wisdom to the great stupid masses, who probably can't deal with figuring this out for themselves. Then again, there might be no saving them, and it just comes down to "us" feeding them shit when they act in unacceptable ways.

About attractive people being more socially adept, it seems like a fairly reasonable expectation (though clearly often a wrong one). Not only because inherently attractive people are likely to have more experience of social situations, but also because attractiveness is in many cases just the result of someone working really hard to adapt their appearances to social standards. (And no, I don't mainly mean people whose faces are hidden behind a veritable mask of makeup and whose body parts are not all human. But they are an extreme indicator of the kind of adaptation I'm talking about.)

And yeah, if I get a "X new posts warning again", I'm just clicking post first, then reading them. Jeez, people.

[Freeky]

I would be far more suspicious of a very attractive person approaching me and trying to talk me up. Historically, it's only ever been out of some cruel prank.

You and me both, sister.

I'm torn between lulz, not sure if srs, and sadface for you. 

This is the correct answer.

Bring on the next quiz question! I am totally hella studied up today. :flex:

[LMNO]

For context, Michael Fassbender:





LMNO
-BOYS BOYS BOYS.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think a reasonably good looking person would have more experience with social interaction than, say, a 400 lb. basement dweller, but that doesn't mean they learned anything from it.

A reasonably good looking person has less NEED of social skills than an ugly person.

Mostly because people are willing to cut them more slack.