UNLIMITED holist appreciation thread

[Pergamos]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

[Pergamos]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

Except that this work doesn't imply a "solution".  The water isn't water anymore.  It can't be, by definition.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I mean, if it WAS a solution, that means I am drinking a solution Adolf Hitler's old farts, Atilla the Hun's arse sweat, and the other half of Mama Cass's ham sammich in my coffee, as we speak.

I wonder how much I could get for that on Ebay?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And where it really hits homeopathy is that you could drink this water, and it would have precisely zero (0) affect on you.

[Pergamos]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

Except that this work doesn't imply a "solution".  The water isn't water anymore.  It can't be, by definition.

That seems like a distinction of semantics rather than a real practical distinction.  The water is different than it was without the salts dissolved into it.

As far as the farts, ass sweat, and ham sammich, probably not much, since anyone who wants to can have that just by turning on their tap.

I'm pretty sure distillation gets that stuff out though, although I don't know that there is an experiment on that either.  It would have been nice if Louis Rey had distilled his magical glowing water and seen if the distillate still glowed.

As far as the effect of drinking the water, Homeopathists claim Sodium Chloride cures migraines and nervous tension.  It seems like it would be easy to do double blind experiments to determine if this claim is accurate.  So far this has not occured.  Although if you accept that the water also contains Hitler farts, the presence or absence of those might effect the results...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

As far as the effect of drinking the water, Homeopathists claim Sodium Chloride cures migraines and nervous tension.  It seems like it would be easy to do double blind experiments to determine if this claim is accurate.  So far this has not occured.

Well, there you go.  I'll concede the argument on semantics...But we have an actual test that can be done now.  I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. 

Although if you accept that the water also contains Hitler farts,

It does.  You haven't tasted this coffee.

[Juana]

Also, they're all pretentious douche bags and often pedantic.

Don't forget passive aggressive.

yes, yes they are.


Also, why are we still entertaining this mouthbreather?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, they're all pretentious douche bags and often pedantic.

Don't forget passive aggressive.

yes, yes they are.


Also, why are we still entertaining this mouthbreather?

Because nobody's talking about anything else?  :shrug:

[Dildo Argentino]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

Except that this work doesn't imply a "solution".  The water isn't water anymore.  It can't be, by definition.

This is dogma in action. I don't see how an empirical claim can be wrong by definition.

[Dildo Argentino]

Homeopathists claim Sodium Chloride cures migraines and nervous tension.

Well no, I don't think they do. I think the closest they come to that is that for some people, a homeopathic preparation of salt can make migraines and nervous tension better. The way they select those people is what makes it difficult to design placebo-controlled double blind experiments to test the claim. Plus nobody with the kind of funding required is all that interested, because it ha been a question of faith for some time.

[Dildo Argentino]

Also, winter sun over a tree.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

Except that this work doesn't imply a "solution".  The water isn't water anymore.  It can't be, by definition.

This is dogma in action. I don't see how an empirical claim can be wrong by definition.

You never took chemistry, did you? 

[Dildo Argentino]

Okay, what this is telling me is that lithium chloride and sodium chloride can be detected in water despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro number.

This implies that for some reason, those two chemicals are now part of the actual water, which means that you're not looking at proper H₂O anymore, since any detectability below the Avogadro constant means that the original chemical in question simply isn't there (or rather, that the number of atoms in a mol are too low to be measured).

(LMNO, am I getting this right?  It's been a long time.)

It's interesting, but as you say, it doesn't support homeopathy in the slightest.

That's about the same as what I got from the write up.

As I say, interesting (in that it's not water anymore), but still not quite the same as we were talking about (Holist's weird beliefs in homeopathy and other things that imply a subjective universe that operates based on "what I want").

It does validate one of the pillars of homeopathy.  The idea that a substance can effect a solution even when it is dissolved into it at an extremely low concentration.  The less is more part of homeopathy I have yet to see addressed in a rigourous scientific way.

Except that this work doesn't imply a "solution".  The water isn't water anymore.  It can't be, by definition.

This is dogma in action. I don't see how an empirical claim can be wrong by definition.

You never took chemistry, did you? 

Fortunately, I've not had an ailment yet for which it is recommended.

However... the guy who wrote that paper specifically set out to disprove one of the fundamental notions of homeopathy:

"At that point we thought that it would be of interest to challenge the theory according which pre-existent "structures" in the original fluid, developed around some added chemicals, could survive a great number ofsuccessive dilutions when done under vigorous mechanical stirring.

To that end we did prepare ourselves, courtesy of the BOIRON LABORATORIES, [one of the largest manufacturers of homeopathic remedies, I note] ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride by successive dilutions to the hundredths, all done under vigorous mechanical stirring (initially 1 g in 100 cm3, then 1 cm3 of this solution in 99 cm3 of pure D2O ... and so on) until we reached — theoretically — at the 15th dilution, a "concentration" of 10−30 g cm−3. A reference sample ofD2O alone was also prepared according to this technique, still keeping vigorous agitation (150 strokes=7:5 s at each successive "dilution" step)."

He was expecting the three ice pellets he produced to exhibit exactly the same thermoluminescence behaviour, because "water is water". But:

"Much to our surprise, the experimental results do show —without any ambiguity— that for an X-ray dose of 0:4 kGy the thermoluminescence glows ofthe three systems were substantially different (Fig. 6). These findings did prove to be reproducible in the course of many different identical experiments."

And saying that "this just shows that those two pellets that once had some salt in them are just ain't water anymore" is a response that could be applied to any experiment that showed a homeopathic effect... In fact, the correct response is "right, they are not water anymore. They are homeopathic dilutions".