Wage Slavery

[tyrannosaurus vex]

[East Coast Hustle]

The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.

Bollocks. We've all heard about your...device.

If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.

[Cain]

In Ireland, they're explicitly denying sex workers are part of an industry.

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-irish-trade-union-movement-throws-sex-workers-under-a-bus-2/

[Freeky]

The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.

Bollocks. We've all heard about your...device.

If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.

MAAAAAYONAAAAIIIIIISE!!!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.

Bollocks. We've all heard about your...device.

If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.

Doesn't count.  That was SCIENCE.

[East Coast Hustle]

The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?

Yes.  Also, apparently, an aerospace project, though with limited range.

[Freeky]

The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?

Yes.  Also, apparently, an aerospace project, though with limited range.

I don't think that guy has forgiven you yet, for his dog thinking it was a chew toy.  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In Ireland, they're explicitly denying sex workers are part of an industry.

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-irish-trade-union-movement-throws-sex-workers-under-a-bus-2/

[Ayotollah of Ass]

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.

So wait, what was your point?

So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?

One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".

If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.

I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.

Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.

Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.

And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.

I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.

I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.

You didn't? What did you mean when you said the bolded, below?

No real understanding of the reality of sex work?

There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.

I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.

How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?

I replied to the bolded by saying that I don't really feel I need to read someone else's blog, since that was my own experience and it, naturally, helps inform my perspective.

As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.

I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?

Sure. But when I suggested you do this before, in the other thread, while it was still fairly manageably small, you got snarky on me, so I'm skeptical now.

From the context, I think it is clear that I'm saying these blogs don't actually exist partly because of the danger to the author's reputation, pointing to a selection bias and only getting one part of the story? Maybe not.

I serendipitously came across this yesterday, which I thought would be interesting to add:

"The production manager printed out a copy of each performer's page in the APHSS database. I signed my own copy and James's, indicating that my results were mine and accurate and that I had seen James's and was comfortable working with him and his clean test which had been taken less than 14 days prior. He did the same. Then the production manager performed an inspection. He looked in our mouths, at both sides of our hands, and at our genitals to make sure there were no visible sores or open wounds. There was another paper to sign stating that we have no sores or open wounds on or in our mouths, hands, and genitals and had been inspected. We also looked at each others genitals, mostly for fun but if either of us had seen (or smelled) something odd we would have called off the scene ourselves...We were able to have fun, uninhibited sex with each other without a condom because we both knew that the chances of either of us being infected with an STD are very low. Far lower than, say, a stranger at a bar or a person who hasn't been tested in a year or more. Our frequent STD testing, the APHSS database (and AIM before them), and the skin inspections are self-imposed."

http://stoya.tumblr.com/post/32205235912/testing-vs-condoms-in-pornography

I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a visual inspection and sniff test, but then again, I probably couldn't tell a herpes lesion from an ass pimple anyway (sheltered life, I guess). I think what I found even more interesting given the context of this PD discussion is how often she uses the word "fun", four times. It doesn't negate was is being said here, but it is definitely a very different picture of working conditions and exploitation than what Roger's OP was painting.

[Ayotollah of Ass]

Also, Ayatollah, you seem to be arguing a definition that involves "obscenity" standards.  While this is a worthy subject of debate, it isn't the actual topic here.  What we've been discussing is the exploitive nature of the sex industry.

I think a lot of the discussion is just talking past one another. I understand this thread, or at least the previous one this was part of, was on exploitation in the sex industry. I have been trying to get at the issue of what this means for a consumer/viewer of porn, as a practical guideline for life - which is what I take to be part of the point of asking this question in the first place. However, depending on your perspective, this issue might be off-topic.

I have not been trying to make any kind of obscenity claims, or to claim any particular person is a prude or people holding an anti-sex industry position are prudes or some of the other things being ascribed to me. Although, I did say that we need to be careful about our sex baggage we smuggle in and rationalize - which applies to everyone. For example, if porn doesn't do anything for you, then you're going to view it differently than someone who regularly watches it with their spouse/lover/whatever before having sex with them.

In any event, I think the best course for me at this point is to just shut up. I'll read the thread through, if I think I was out of line, I'll post one more time to say so. Cheers!   

[Dildo Argentino]

Sorry to miss out on all the fun, been... working. about 25 hours in the last 33.

Had to do drugs to handle it, now I need to work more. Entitled ain't all it's

trumped up to be, sometimes.

***

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I've been thinking about this subject and about this community

a lot, and my conclusion is a sneaking suspicion that you, Roger, may perhaps be a

teeny bit of a disaster tourist. So I'd like to shake your hand.

***

A Description of the Journey that Got Me There

So there I was, minding my own business...

...getting irate with Roger and Nigel and LMNO and v3x and a few others i'm sure ...

but, you know, in my good own time, hippie-ing along with the flow, indulging in

baboonery like only i know how (though very similarly to most everyone, at a guess),

thinking to myself, hey, much as i'd love to give it up, there'd be no point in

trying to force it, 'cos much as i do wish I walked away from them dead horses, it

would do me no good if I did so against my better judgment...
... much as I'd love to get up on me hind feet, if it doesn't come naturally

I may fall over and break my tail... a fat lot of good that would do me...

...thinking about how to get around this problem and getting nowhere with it (I'm

sure you know the feeling), collecting equitable share of enmity like wild flowers

in a meadow as is my wont, when, ALL OF A SUDDEN...

Pixie struck with the blog of the "Free Irish Woman" trafficking/prostitution

survivor. So I went there and started to read her story.

It was gutwrenching, I almost threw up on my computer, and I'm pretty scared of

vomiting.

It was very hard to keep reading, and I almost immediately started looking for

something to suggest it wasn't real. But I kept reading, and then moved onto the

survivor community page, then read maybe two more stories by others, and my feeble

attempt at denial was blown away: this was undoubtedly real. These stories. These traumas.

You can retrace my steps, if you like:
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=148
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=173
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=15
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/chong-kim-doing-nothing-makes-you-part-of-the-problem/
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/terrible-beauty-survivor-angel-k-on-prostitution-the-inadequacy-of-language/


But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how

sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.

http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/

That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.

This person also hates Maggie:

http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/

ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.

https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722

Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.

There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.

Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.

Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.

*******

I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.

It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:

There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.

And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.

I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.

But Roger needs his drama.

********

So then I come back to the forum after 25 hours of expert reports about the malfunctions of motorway bridges, cantilever finger joints, mostly, to find, as expected, a new line of insults just waiting to be delivered. This was the most stringent, it brought tears to my eyes:

So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute.  Really? Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like? Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).

Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me. But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely). I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.

Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's. Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends, FAR from any real similarity. Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?

17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.

Well you know, I'm gonna have to take this one bit by bit.

So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute.  Really?

Nope. It isn't. I didn't think it was, so I fail to see why you hold that against me.

Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like?

No, I don't. But hang on, hey, the thing you are referring to with "that" is my belief that my life is just like that of a prostitute. Which does not exist, right? So you are making me sound like a spoiled brat by lyin'! That's character defamation, that is!!

Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).

You remind me of a friend also. Jumped to conclusions, that girl.

Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me.

Wanna, like, hang out and bitch?

But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies

I am certainly glad to hear that. I am also one of the lucky few.

and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely).
I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.

Okay, okay, you are not a Sex-WOrk PrincessTM. Neither am I. Let's start a club.

Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's.

I'm not going to wise you up on the economic differences between Eastern Europe and the States. On the one hand, it is much harder here, on the other, you are perfectly right, I have it incomparably better than even a pretty settled Happy HookerTM, and anyway, I'm not complaining. But there are undeniable parallels, which I even numbered. Did anyone care? No. Boo-hoo.

Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends,

well no, is listed them before: irregular working hours (hell, days, weeks!), no job security, no collective representation, dog-eat-dog price wars in which the freelancers predictably lose out to the exploiters (the large agencies who run several dozen freelancers), no pension (I for one can't afford one, but of course my kids are my pension - but many of the translators I know survive month to month without any reserves), the temptation to self-exploitation - very clearly, nothing like the life of Sex-WOrk Princesses and by and large a great deal better than that of sex-workers (though I am sure some hookers wouldn't trade places, and most of them are not qualified, sad truth is). No health insurance.

FAR from any real similarity.

Well quite. Actually, it seems to me my work and their work is actually wanting in many of the same areas. Theirs tends to want a great deal more.

Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?

yes, great observation. I should have started the "what makes work good or bad" thread. I realise now.

*****

AND THEN, AFTER GETTING ALL HET UP:

17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.

Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.

I give up.

I love you, Rog!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I love you, Rog!

You know, Holist, the whole "FIGHTING TEH POWER and takin' Roger down" thing gets really, really fucking old after a while.  And by old, I mean "boring".  I mean, really, really boring.  You're about the 500th special snowflake to come along and develop some kind of weird fucking obsession with me.   

Also:

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I've been thinking about this subject and about this community

a lot, and my conclusion is a sneaking suspicion that you, Roger, may perhaps be a

teeny bit of a disaster tourist.

Suck the peanuts out of my shit, pilgrim.  Seriously, that tells me everything I need to know about you. 

But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.

That's because you're an entitled, privileged piece of shit with no connections to anything resembling reality.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.

And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution.  He's a misogynist.

[Luna]

Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.

And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution.  He's a misogynist.

Hell, I just figured it was the only way he could get any.