A few thoughts on the latest round of White Guilt discussions

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't think I belong here, anymore.

Put on your big boy pants, dude. This is not gonna be a good century for people who give up so easily. Besides, who gives a flying ratfuck if anyone is offended? IMO that's their fucking problem.

[Don Coyote]

I can cede that ground, but I hope you understand why I might be angry with LIKEers.

Then you will have to be angry with me. I have other shit going on that curtails any ACTIVE participation in quite a few things. The best I can do is LIKE a couple of things SHARE a couple of things, and tell off people that I am forced to deal with for archaic or regressive thinking.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I can cede that ground, but I hope you understand why I might be angry with LIKEers.

I'm angry with half my crew, but I can't keep the plant running without them.

If you look at all the successful activists in the past, each and every one of them engaged in the politics of inclusion.  How many of the Whites marching with MLK were there out of genuine belief?  Most?  Probably.  All?  Not a hope.  And the people they REACHED were the apologists and the people with token Black friends (very popular fad in the 60s).

If all you had to deal with were the true believers, activism wouldn't be necessary.  So you have to engage in the difficult and somewhat disgusting effort of bringing the faddists and the apologists on board.

And THAT is the failure of modern activism that I was mocking in the OP.  It's as bad as the right wing, at least as far as ideological tests go.  And you'll notice that the right wing just got its ass stomped, and you'll also notice that Occupy died under its own weight.

You can indulge in self-righteous purity, or you can accomplish things.  You have to decide.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't think I belong here, anymore.

Put on your big boy pants, dude. This is not gonna be a good century for people who give up so easily. Besides, who gives a flying ratfuck if anyone is offended? IMO that's their fucking problem.

You leave me and my existential crisis alone.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Whoops.  I guess she didn't want to hear that.

ETA:  I think my laugher has an auto-reset.

ETA2:  Yep.  It's back.  Only right now I'm feeling manipulated as hell, and more than a little pissed off.

Note to self:  Don't let shit back up like that.  It's bad for the toilet.

[Juana]

I can cede that ground, but I hope you understand why I might be angry with LIKEers.

Then you will have to be angry with me. I have other shit going on that curtails any ACTIVE participation in quite a few things. The best I can do is LIKE a couple of things SHARE a couple of things, and tell off people that I am forced to deal with for archaic or regressive thinking.

That has nothing to do with LIKE'ing. LIKE'ing involves lipservice or problematic behavior of epic proportions and the following refusal to listen to the people you're dehumanizing. If you're doing what you can and telling people off when shit arises, that's perfect ally behavior. That's all most people can or have time to do.

Whoops.  I guess she didn't want to hear that.

ETA:  I think my laugher has an auto-reset.

ETA2:  Yep.  It's back.  Only right now I'm feeling manipulated as hell, and more than a little pissed off.

Note to self:  Don't let shit back up like that.  It's bad for the toilet.

What are you talking about? I'm swapping back and forth between this and writing my defense/expansion of the CA argument I made the other day.

I can cede that ground, but I hope you understand why I might be angry with LIKEers.

I'm angry with half my crew, but I can't keep the plant running without them.

If you look at all the successful activists in the past, each and every one of them engaged in the politics of inclusion.  How many of the Whites marching with MLK were there out of genuine belief?  Most?  Probably.  All?  Not a hope.  And the people they REACHED were the apologists and the people with token Black friends (very popular fad in the 60s).

If all you had to deal with were the true believers, activism wouldn't be necessary.  So you have to engage in the difficult and somewhat disgusting effort of bringing the faddists and the apologists on board.

And THAT is the failure of modern activism that I was mocking in the OP.  It's as bad as the right wing, at least as far as ideological tests go.  And you'll notice that the right wing just got its ass stomped, and you'll also notice that Occupy died under its own weight.

You can indulge in self-righteous purity, or you can accomplish things.  You have to decide.

*sigh* I'm not arguing against the politics of inclusion. I never have. I've only expressed frustration with LIKE'ing and seriously problematic, asshole behavior amongst people who do want to help (remember when I said "genuine sentiment" on Wednesday?). I will work with them, but I will be frustrated when "oooh bisexual females are hawt" comes up and anyone who tells me I'm not allowed to feel that way can fuck right the hell off - I will feel what I want, goddammit, and such emotions are fucking valid because they're dehumanizing me! If they refuse to listen when I explain why that's dehumanizing, I will still work with them, because I recognize we can't do as much apart as we can together, even if they're assholes, but I will be angry with them.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What are you talking about?

Not you.

*sigh* I'm not arguing against the politics of inclusion. I never have. I've only expressed frustration with LIKE'ing and seriously problematic, asshole behavior amongst people who do want to help (remember when I said "genuine sentiment" on Wednesday?). I will work with them, but I will be frustrated when "oooh bisexual females are hawt" comes up and anyone who tells me I'm not allowed to feel that way can fuck right the hell off - I will feel what I want, goddammit, and such emotions are fucking valid because they're dehumanizing me! If they refuse to listen when I explain why that's dehumanizing, I will still work with them, because I recognize we can't do as much apart as we can together, even if they're assholes, but I will be angry with them.

I don't see any argument with that.  I would, however, suggest that you hit them with that anger ("fuck you" is appropriate), and then hit them in the liberal guilt by telling them WHY.  It works.  Trust me.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

See, it might be a coincidence of timing, but recently what I'm hearing from you and Pixie is how everyone's doin' it wrong.

And if it shows here, it sure as hell shows in meatspace, and that's not going to accomplish much other than to reinforce stereotypes in the po'bucker set.

[Juana]

See, it might be a coincidence of timing, but recently what I'm hearing from you and Pixie is how everyone's doin' it wrong.

And if it shows here, it sure as hell shows in meatspace, and that's not going to accomplish much other than to reinforce stereotypes in the po'bucker set.

In Pix's case, I believe she's talking about *one* person in particular. I was expressing frustration with a certain kind of behavior that, yes, a lot of people do. But not everyone and it wasn't meant to tar everyone who calls themselves an ally with the same icky brush.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

See, it might be a coincidence of timing, but recently what I'm hearing from you and Pixie is how everyone's doin' it wrong.

And if it shows here, it sure as hell shows in meatspace, and that's not going to accomplish much other than to reinforce stereotypes in the po'bucker set.

In Pix's case, I believe she's talking about *one* person in particular. I was expressing frustration with a certain kind of behavior that, yes, a lot of people do. But not everyone and it wasn't meant to tar everyone who calls themselves an ally with the same icky brush.

When's the last time anyone had anything GOOD to say about their fellow activists?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that came off as snarky.  Let me restate it:

Apparently, I have offended some people here recently.  I am unsure whether or not I have actually been more crass than usual.  I'm pretty sure I haven't.  But the fact remains that I have offended people I respect, and I DO try to avoid repeating mistakes.  So I'm gonna tone it down a bit.

Problem is, as the man said, "If I send away my devils then my angels may go, too".  Thing is, I'm pretty sure all I HAVE is devils, one on either shoulder.  One is named "Bad", and the other is named "Worse".  Each of them has a big mallet, and they hit me upside the head when I see something that's laugh-worthy, or DUMB, or inhuman, or whatever.  It is this continuous trauma to the skull that makes me pour out the horrible.

Either I've changed or other people have changed or maybe both.  The gags I find funny are offensive and not funny to other people.  But they're the only gags I know.  I'm some sort of horrible anachronism that wanders around laughing at all the wrong things and at all the wrong jokes.  I've always known this, but I never thought I was coming off as basically Lester Maddox talking about "niggers".  Needless to say, this is very upsetting, and I don't mean "I am mad at the person that pointed this out", I mean "I am upset with my own behavior, and at not having seen what is apparently plain as day to other people."

That being said, since I cannot trust my own judgement as to what is funny and what is offensive, I'm going to have to stop laughing.  My sincerest apologies to anyone I may have offended in this manner.

I think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit, honestly. It's really just that we've had this conversation before, and perhaps you're thinking something like "Why is she taking offense again? I've already said that I don't mean her" and I'm thinking "Why is he generalizing about that again? I've already told him that it's hard not to take it personally even when he tells me he doesn't mean me" and the fact is, no matter how many times you state that you don't mean me, it's still going to be hard not to take it personally when you make disparaging comments about something I identify with, whether it's activism, feminism, health science, or any other aspect of my personal identity.

Like we talked about in text earlier, it's a bit similar to your reaction to Pixie saying what she did about privileged white boys needing a good slap. She meant a particular person, but inadvertently included you and LMNO in her statement. I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say something to her about that, but not say anything when you do the same thing.

Maybe it isn't that you shouldn't joke anymore, but that I'm too serious to enjoy being here anymore. I think that jokes that generalize can be funny, but that just didn't register as a joke.

That said, I accept and appreciate your apology. I'm not mad, at all, and I hope you have no hard feelings either.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I think that came off as snarky.  Let me restate it:

Apparently, I have offended some people here recently.  I am unsure whether or not I have actually been more crass than usual.  I'm pretty sure I haven't.  But the fact remains that I have offended people I respect, and I DO try to avoid repeating mistakes.  So I'm gonna tone it down a bit.

Problem is, as the man said, "If I send away my devils then my angels may go, too".  Thing is, I'm pretty sure all I HAVE is devils, one on either shoulder.  One is named "Bad", and the other is named "Worse".  Each of them has a big mallet, and they hit me upside the head when I see something that's laugh-worthy, or DUMB, or inhuman, or whatever.  It is this continuous trauma to the skull that makes me pour out the horrible.

Either I've changed or other people have changed or maybe both.  The gags I find funny are offensive and not funny to other people.  But they're the only gags I know.  I'm some sort of horrible anachronism that wanders around laughing at all the wrong things and at all the wrong jokes.  I've always known this, but I never thought I was coming off as basically Lester Maddox talking about "niggers".  Needless to say, this is very upsetting, and I don't mean "I am mad at the person that pointed this out", I mean "I am upset with my own behavior, and at not having seen what is apparently plain as day to other people."

That being said, since I cannot trust my own judgement as to what is funny and what is offensive, I'm going to have to stop laughing.  My sincerest apologies to anyone I may have offended in this manner.

I think you're blowing things out of proportion a bit, honestly. It's really just that we've had this conversation before, and perhaps you're thinking something like "Why is she taking offense again? I've already said that I don't mean her" and I'm thinking "Why is he generalizing about that again? I've already told him that it's hard not to take it personally even when he tells me he doesn't mean me" and the fact is, no matter how many times you state that you don't mean me, it's still going to be hard not to take it personally when you make disparaging comments about something I identify with, whether it's activism, feminism, health science, or any other aspect of my personal identity.

Like we talked about in text earlier, it's a bit similar to your reaction to Pixie saying what she did about privileged white boys needing a good slap. She meant a particular person, but inadvertently included you and LMNO in her statement. I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me to say something to her about that, but not say anything when you do the same thing.

Maybe it isn't that you shouldn't joke anymore, but that I'm too serious to enjoy being here anymore. I think that jokes that generalize can be funny, but that just didn't register as a joke.

That said, I accept and appreciate your apology. I'm not mad, at all, and I hope you have no hard feelings either.

No hard feelings?  Of course not. 

Sincerely,
George Wallace

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

SNIP
... are not welcome here. Hell, even I haven't been banned.

protip:  just because you haven't been banned, doesn't mean you are welcome here.

This.

There's a broad, broad gap between "throwing a guy out" and "making a guy welcome".

Mind the gap.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's the fucking -isms, man.  They put everyone in a weird spot.  You can't mock the sillier elements of an -ism without dragging the genuinely good elements of the -ism into it.  And in order to defend the genuinely good elements of the -ism you have to defend the sillier elements even if you don't agree with them.  It's a giant clusterfuck.  There's no way in hell there's not going to be tons of collateral damage.

This.  Especially if it's generally considered an important, socially relevant ISM that could potentially make people better, rather than a stupid and irrational ISM that is difficult to defend.

There's also, like, the idea of dispensing with the tidy box-o-matic "ism" category, and criticizing the behavior instead. It just requires a little more critical thinking and linguistic precision, which I am pretty certain almost everyone here is capable of. If I didn't think so, it probably wouldn't frustrate me so much when I see lazy categoristic shorthands that make facile generalizations.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Youre right- i dont even recall the last time i said something to him. Hes probably a bully irl since that seems to be his mo.

He strikes me more as the perpetual victim of bullies, now with online anonymity, but you could be right.

No, I think he's a bully. You can tell by the pattern of who he picks on: women, and people who seem to feel down or at a disadvantage. There are a couple of people he conspicuously doesn't pick on, and the contrast is pretty stark. ECH, for example. But he's gone after me, Garbo, Freeky, Phox, Twid when Twid was feeling low, and you when you apologized, which makes sense if you consider that he apparently considers admitting (or even considering) that you might be wrong to be a sign of weakness.

Totally consistent with bully behavior.