Author Topic: The Loser's Dream  (Read 5381 times)

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 04:38:47 pm »
The sad thing is, there's more than enough wealth for every single one of us to live a comfortable middle-class lifestyle, and enough left over for some people to be rich. Just not SUPER-rich. But who actually needs to be super-rich? What's the benefit?

I wouldn't mind the super-rich if they actually did something useful or interesting with their money, even if all they did was become stereotypical James Bond villains with death rays and secret bases in extinct volcanos.  Or maybe especially if that's what they did.  But another mansion, another yacht... it's all very boring and pointless.

I would still mind them, because resources are finite and every person who is super-rich is keeping thousands (if not millions) of others in poverty.

But if the super-rich become super-villains, they will finally be the job creators they claim to be!  They'll need minions, loads and loads of minions, and the need to supply those minions with uniforms and equipment and such will stimulate any number of related industries!

I jest, I jest.  I just can't wrap my head around the hoarding of money when someone already has more than they could ever spend.  What's the point?

Troof! Know what makes not give a passing fuck when Ozzy's mansion gets robbed? "I worked hard for my millions". It's misdirection. how hard they worked is irrelevant. It does not justify the fact that every penny they collect comes from the mouth of some poor starving fuck, with barely a couple of degrees of separation most of the time.

It's a global picture - X resources divided by Y population. Do I eat 99% of the pizza cos I worked the hardest? No, my family get a slice each. Multiply by 7 billion. Draw a line in the sand. Call it a hundred grand? Anyone holding onto more than that, straight to jail, assets in the pot, share it out globally at the end.

You think jail's a bit harsh? How many people starved to death for want of a slice of their pizza? I call it "indirect manslaughter" others refer to it as "Capitalism". Not Capitalism in theory - I mean actual capitalism in practice.

I've sometimes wondered if there ought to be a maximum wage to complement the minimum wage.  I'm not certain such a proposal is actually practical, or even desirable.  It's just a thought experiment, another way to ask, how much does someone really need?

Some countries do have a maximum wage, and it works out very well.
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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2013, 04:41:32 pm »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 04:55:29 pm »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.

I wasn't aware of that.

Heh.  Eloi and Morlocks.  We'll eat those bastards one day, Nigel.
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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 10:43:28 pm »
Poverty in Norway is not so much about starving or not managing to pay utilities bills. People can overlive (survive), but not really live. This is mostly immigrants from non-Western countries, but also other people who are on benefits, unemployed or underemployed.
Kids not being able to "fit in" with the rest of the kids because their parents can't afford all the little extra costs. Birthday parties, school trips, prom suits, bikes, soccer club fees, electronic gadgets, snowboards/skis. If you don't have all the required middle class accessories or more, you'll struggle finding friends other than among other poor kids. The house/apartment is so shabby that the kid is reluctant about inviting other kids over, maybe he or she doesn't even have his own room.

Personally, I've had a quite privileged middle class upbringing. My parents have big mortgages but can still afford to drink good wine and travel to exotic places once in a while, and we've never really been in any big need.
If I decide to not get a job while studying at uni and try to survive off the meagre student loan, which is tempting, I will probably have to live in near-poverty.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2013, 12:05:05 am »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.

I wasn't aware of that.

Heh.  Eloi and Morlocks.  We'll eat those bastards one day, Nigel.

We will eat them with forks and knives.

The whole bad-decision-making thing is leading me down all kinds of interesting neuroscience research rabbit-holes.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2013, 01:52:20 am »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.

I wasn't aware of that.

Heh.  Eloi and Morlocks.  We'll eat those bastards one day, Nigel.

We will eat them with forks and knives.

The whole bad-decision-making thing is leading me down all kinds of interesting neuroscience research rabbit-holes.

It's caused me to regain religion.

NO WAY did these assholes survive the gap between A) Falling out of trees and B) Learning to use fire.

I call my theory "kinda stupid design theory".
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2013, 02:03:09 am »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.

I wasn't aware of that.

Heh.  Eloi and Morlocks.  We'll eat those bastards one day, Nigel.

We will eat them with forks and knives.

The whole bad-decision-making thing is leading me down all kinds of interesting neuroscience research rabbit-holes.

It's caused me to regain religion.

NO WAY did these assholes survive the gap between A) Falling out of trees and B) Learning to use fire.

I call my theory "kinda stupid design theory".

TEACH IT IN SCHOOLS!
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


The Good Reverend Roger

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2013, 02:17:06 am »
So, I think I'm one of the few on the board who, through no effort of my own, was born into a relatively wealthy family. I wouldn't say super-rich, but my grandfather owned a chain of supermarkets in california, and invested well.  I do agree that it's incredibly easy for a kid in those situations not to notice their own privilege, and it does set up a different type of expectation regarding their future. 

I'm not sure I was condtioned to fuck the poor, but I would say that I didn't have the same stresses growing up, and it did take some time in my teens/twenties before I could really relate to people who didn't have my background.

I spent a while dirt poor, and the biggest problem with it is the non-stop grinding stress.  It wears you down to the point where spending money you can't afford on booze seems like a reasonable idea.  This, needless to say, creates more stress, and a rather vicious cycle ensues.

Yep.

And poor people are fucked over before they're even born, because of the effects of maternal stress on fetal brain development. It doesn't make us dumber... but it does make us more anxious, more depressed, more aggressive, and less able to make decisions for our long-term future. The stressed brain operates under the assumption that there won't be one.

I wasn't aware of that.

Heh.  Eloi and Morlocks.  We'll eat those bastards one day, Nigel.

We will eat them with forks and knives.

The whole bad-decision-making thing is leading me down all kinds of interesting neuroscience research rabbit-holes.

It's caused me to regain religion.

NO WAY did these assholes survive the gap between A) Falling out of trees and B) Learning to use fire.

I call my theory "kinda stupid design theory".

TEACH IT IN SCHOOLS!

Kinda like hauling coals to Newcastle, isn't it?

Schools are full of people.

People are dumb.

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Pergamos

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2013, 07:16:28 pm »
What makes them losers is that they want to be rich OR poor in a system in which the rich needlessly fuck the poor.

Oh, man.  How I wish I could staple that onto the foreheads of some of the people I know.

This.  This is a very, very good line.

I've been trying to think of how to say that for about 10 years.

Personally I think you've managed to say it a good few times but never so succinctly. So what's the alternative? Whether you're rich or aspiring to be rich you're buying into the con. The rich are as bad off as the poor in a lot of ways. Specifically because it's never enough. Doesn't matter how much they have or don't have, they're junkies, hooked on more - slaves to the impossible dream of having all the fucking bananas and unable to rest or be happy with what they have.

I'd preach the gospel of "ENOUGH" but who the fuck would listen and why the fuck should I care? I have enough. It's not much but it's enough. "Enough for what?" they might ask if they weren't too busy trying to work out how to get their hands on all my bananas. The answer, if they bothered to listen, is - enough to live my life like I fucking mean it and take every little thing that smells like fun TO THE FUCKING WALL!!! Instead of pissing my life away chasing boring yellow fruit.

Sounds kinda Buddhist.

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2013, 08:24:29 pm »
What makes them losers is that they want to be rich OR poor in a system in which the rich needlessly fuck the poor.

Oh, man.  How I wish I could staple that onto the foreheads of some of the people I know.

This.  This is a very, very good line.

I've been trying to think of how to say that for about 10 years.

Personally I think you've managed to say it a good few times but never so succinctly. So what's the alternative? Whether you're rich or aspiring to be rich you're buying into the con. The rich are as bad off as the poor in a lot of ways. Specifically because it's never enough. Doesn't matter how much they have or don't have, they're junkies, hooked on more - slaves to the impossible dream of having all the fucking bananas and unable to rest or be happy with what they have.

I'd preach the gospel of "ENOUGH" but who the fuck would listen and why the fuck should I care? I have enough. It's not much but it's enough. "Enough for what?" they might ask if they weren't too busy trying to work out how to get their hands on all my bananas. The answer, if they bothered to listen, is - enough to live my life like I fucking mean it and take every little thing that smells like fun TO THE FUCKING WALL!!! Instead of pissing my life away chasing boring yellow fruit.

Sounds kinda Buddhist.

I think I am pretty Buddhist in a lot of ways. Difference being the whole path of least resistance issue. I tend more toward tearing a great big fucking hole in obstacles, rather than walking round them. Keeps me match fit.
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Junkenstein

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2013, 08:43:28 pm »
Out of curiosity, if you took the top 5% say of the rich, and made them live for a week, every year on the National average wage, in "average" accomodation etc, what would be the result? I mean just take the statistical norm for everything and let them at it. While doing a 40 hour week. Sort your own food and transport. And pay the weeks bills at the end of it.



I'd expect to watch living standards soar year on year.

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Pergamos

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2013, 04:42:06 am »
Out of curiosity, if you took the top 5% say of the rich, and made them live for a week, every year on the National average wage, in "average" accomodation etc, what would be the result? I mean just take the statistical norm for everything and let them at it. While doing a 40 hour week. Sort your own food and transport. And pay the weeks bills at the end of it.



I'd expect to watch living standards soar year on year.

I'd expect to watch them go down.  They'd do it and go "well, I did this when I was living at average wages, and if you did too you wouldn't be so miserable, I didn't need all the resources I was allotted, you don't either"

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2013, 09:37:30 am »
What makes them losers is that they want to be rich OR poor in a system in which the rich needlessly fuck the poor.

Oh, man.  How I wish I could staple that onto the foreheads of some of the people I know.

This!

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2019, 04:27:47 am »
bump for use elsewhere
Morrissey is the crown prince of sad.  He teaches us that deaf/mute girls are terrible at telling you that a disaster is occurring, and that when you get famous, all your old friends hate you for buying new tee shirts.  Morrissey fans are best known for hugging their legs and biting their knees in the shower, over a girl that dumped them rather than learn their name, or binge-eating an entire pizza and then throwing it up on their man-boobs in the bath tub, while they squeeze their  testicles until they remember that they are worthless and do not deserve love.

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Re: The Loser's Dream
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2019, 10:40:09 am »
From my points of reference, for what its worth:

-Its what Marxists would call "false conscience", that is to support and fight for goals and objectives contrary to their own benefit, themselves belonging and being part of a subordinate class.

-I could also speak of the psychological processes of identification and "ego ideal", in which one fantasizes about being like someone else they deem more perfect than themselves, and thru detachment to reality believe to be so.

Its a type of narcissistic make-believe game to avoid thinking of themselves as powerless and exploited... and in the grand scheme of things, its just a mini-game within the greater narcissist game of who has the most 0's in their bank accounts.

Maybe its all narcissistic dildoes from all the way up to all the way down, trying to be "the best" or "the most" in the most neurotic and aggresive categories possible. Perhaps thats the apex of perversity - any random thug can kill someone for personal "joy", but- exploiting people till you suck them dry, just like the entrance to Auschwitz reads "Arbeit macht frei" (Work will set you free).
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