Redemption

[Ben Shapiro]

Back to OP. How does one redeem themselves for murder. Like I was just walking along, and I was bored, and I stabbed someone and walked away.

How does one try to help someone like this? I liked Nigel's idea of a rapist spending eternity helping rape victims while everyone knowing that said person is rapist. They pretty much live on the edge of someone kicking their ass everyday.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

Back to OP. How does one redeem themselves for murder. Like I was just walking along, and I was bored, and I stabbed someone and walked away.

How does one try to help someone like this? I liked Nigel's idea of a rapist spending eternity helping rape victims while everyone knowing that said person is rapist. They pretty much live on the edge of someone kicking their ass everyday.

Actually, I think she meant a rapist taking to dudes about consent.

I'm pretty sure any rape survivor I know would tell them to fuck off.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

A murderer could be forgiven by the victim's family at any time for any reason.
A murderer could redeem himself in the eyes of society by serving an appropriate amount of time in prison (thereby acting as an object lesson in "not murdering people" for other people who might be considering that idea), making an offer to the victim's family to engage in a dialogue about what could help them return to a state of relative normalcy, and living the rest of his life contritely, within the bounds of the law and good taste. A murderer who forgives himself is unlikely to be seen as "redeemed" in society.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

If we go with the BiP metaphor, people behave the way they do, because of their life experience, education, beliefs, etc etc etc. If we think that its possible to change our BiP, then it must be possible to change the ick/squick/bad behavior as well. Forgiveness, however, seems to me like a very personal thing. If someone raped a woman, even if they changed, I don't know if that woman should or even could truly forgive them (probably depends on their own BiP). However, as someone not connected to the rapist or the victim, I may be able to see the change and not judge the rest of their life based on that previous behavior.

I might be able to say "Hey, George Wallace changed, I can have a conversation with him and not presume he's a racist fuck." However, if I was the individual he was blocking from entry in front of everyone, maybe I'd say "Nah, fuck that guy".

I don't think there's anything wrong with either of those positions, and I don't think they're in conflict. The conflict, IMO, wuld be the victim, or the non-connected person, trying to enforce their position on the other person. It pisses me off to no end to hear someone try to convince someone else that they 'must' forgive someone who has done them wrong... or for someone to try to make everyone damn someone, no matter what has changed.

forgiveness isn't done by society, its done by humans.

I think...

[P3nT4gR4m]

Unless there's a giant invisible man with a scorecard then redemption is an opinion. A lot of the time it's talked about as if it's an absolute but it isn't.

Someone might kill an entire village, just for a laugh and the sole survivor might forgive him and they both live happily ever after. Then some other punter accidentally wipes someone out in his car and it's not really even his fault, like the kid ran out between parked cars or some shit but the family hold a grudge against the driver forever.

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Stockholm Syndrome: forgiveness as a disorder?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

Pretty much how it worked for me. I got tired of being a raging ball of psycho crazy screaming "LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE TO ME!!!" And decided, fuck it. I'm done.

All the stupid shitheads telling me to forgive so HE can heal and HE can feel better . . . telling me GOD did this to me for a reason, I need to learn from it . . . telling me I did this to myself before I was reincarnated so I should let it go already . . .

I was at the point where I felt pretty much every other single living person including my abusers could go die in a fucking fire.

And that shit is exhausting.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

Pretty much how it worked for me. I got tired of being a raging ball of psycho crazy screaming "LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE TO ME!!!" And decided, fuck it. I'm done.

All the stupid shitheads telling me to forgive so HE can heal and HE can feel better . . . telling me GOD did this to me for a reason, I need to learn from it . . . telling me I did this to myself before I was reincarnated so I should let it go already . . .

I was at the point where I felt pretty much every other single living person including my abusers could go die in a fucking fire.

And that shit is exhausting.

You guys are talking about forgiveness.  I'm talking about redemption, which is a totally different thing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

Pretty much how it worked for me. I got tired of being a raging ball of psycho crazy screaming "LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE TO ME!!!" And decided, fuck it. I'm done.

All the stupid shitheads telling me to forgive so HE can heal and HE can feel better . . . telling me GOD did this to me for a reason, I need to learn from it . . . telling me I did this to myself before I was reincarnated so I should let it go already . . .

I was at the point where I felt pretty much every other single living person including my abusers could go die in a fucking fire.

And that shit is exhausting.

You guys are talking about forgiveness.  I'm talking about redemption, which is a totally different thing.

Yeah. You can have forgiveness without redemption, and you can have redemption without forgiveness.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sort of like how a good deed doesn't require recognition.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

Pretty much how it worked for me. I got tired of being a raging ball of psycho crazy screaming "LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE TO ME!!!" And decided, fuck it. I'm done.

All the stupid shitheads telling me to forgive so HE can heal and HE can feel better . . . telling me GOD did this to me for a reason, I need to learn from it . . . telling me I did this to myself before I was reincarnated so I should let it go already . . .

I was at the point where I felt pretty much every other single living person including my abusers could go die in a fucking fire.

And that shit is exhausting.

You guys are talking about forgiveness.  I'm talking about redemption, which is a totally different thing.

Yeah. You can have forgiveness without redemption, and you can have redemption without forgiveness.

Yep.  Redemption is atonement, and that can't be granted by mere forgiveness.

[P3nT4gR4m]

It's always been my opinion that forgiving someone is something that you do to yourself if that makes any sense.

Pretty much how it worked for me. I got tired of being a raging ball of psycho crazy screaming "LOOK AT WHAT WAS DONE TO ME!!!" And decided, fuck it. I'm done.

All the stupid shitheads telling me to forgive so HE can heal and HE can feel better . . . telling me GOD did this to me for a reason, I need to learn from it . . . telling me I did this to myself before I was reincarnated so I should let it go already . . .

I was at the point where I felt pretty much every other single living person including my abusers could go die in a fucking fire.

And that shit is exhausting.

You guys are talking about forgiveness.  I'm talking about redemption, which is a totally different thing.

In that case I can honestly say that I don't understand redemption. I can't see past it being a supernatural authority thing. Explain redemption pls?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

So . . . hmm . . .

Hypothetical Situation.

One kid beats the crap out of another kid, putting him in the hospital. First kid goes to juvie and therapy. Second kid gets lots of medical bills and reconstructive surgery.

Redemption would be the first kid realising he fucked up, genuinely feeling remorseful, and doing something about it. After anger management classes, lots of therapy, and some constructive hobby that allows for a vent, karate or boxing or making paper airplanes . . . he gets his shit together and decides to become a councilor. Once he's out he goes to school and gets a job helping others deal with their emotions in a way that doesn't involve turning other people into punching bags.

Regardless of what happens between Kid 1 and Kid 2 from that point on, Kid 1 has to deal with the mess he made and do what he can to - if not fix it, which is pretty impossible - make amends by paying it forward so to speak, right?

Is that more what we're talking about here?

Hope that makes sense.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So . . . hmm . . .

Hypothetical Situation.

One kid beats the crap out of another kid, putting him in the hospital. First kid goes to juvie and therapy. Second kid gets lots of medical bills and reconstructive surgery.

Redemption would be the first kid realising he fucked up, genuinely feeling remorseful, and doing something about it. After anger management classes, lots of therapy, and some constructive hobby that allows for a vent, karate or boxing or making paper airplanes . . . he gets his shit together and decides to become a councilor. Once he's out he goes to school and gets a job helping others deal with their emotions in a way that doesn't involve turning other people into punching bags.

Regardless of what happens between Kid 1 and Kid 2 from that point on, Kid 1 has to deal with the mess he made and do what he can to - if not fix it, which is pretty impossible - make amends by paying it forward so to speak, right?

Is that more what we're talking about here?

Hope that makes sense.

Yes. Something a lot like that.

Sort like how a lot of people who had drug addiction issues become drug and alcohol counselors.

In a way, redemption might be more of an internal process than an external one.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

So if it were two men fighting and the first guy killed the second, leaving a widow and kids without their husband and father . . .

The question becomes "What can be done to compensate or atone for this loss of life and the impact it might have had?"

So the first guy goes to jail, guilty on all charges. Life sentence, chance of parole in thirty years. Death penalty off the table. What could he do to come back from his crime? What impact could he have that would balance out a wife without a husband and children without a father? In the killer's eyes.

. . .

I suppose this shouldn't be such an arduous discussion to have with people, but we get so side-tracked by the crime itself and how we respond to that - and the victim and what goes on there - that the other part the story is sort of slapped with stereotypes and locked in a cage.

So what would happen to the murderer after he's locked up and the key is thrown away? What would his process be?

Maybe he joins a gang in prison and beats up people, gets the shit beat out of him.

Maybe he genuinely regrets what he did and wants to do something, anything to fix it. What options does he have? Maybe he starts taking college courses and gets a degree in something. What could he do with it?

Maybe he just does what he can to keep the peace on his cell block. Starts looking out for the little guy and ends up taking a beating that kills him.

. . .

Now I'm just rambling. Sorry. I'm still trying to figure out what he'd have to do that would redeem himself in the eyes of the public and to himself.