Redemption

[Elder Iptuous]

redemption is a squaring up. the damage caused must be equaled by good action. benevolence and sacrifice.
but then i think of the hanged man; redemption through suffering.  what's that worth?
seems a fundamental aspect of ones personality, the relative weight that one assigns to some given amount of benevolent sacrific vs. some given amount of suffering in its own right.
i'm inclined to say that valuing suffering alone as a means of attaining some balance is barbarous, but something deep inside is pretty firmly rooted to that notion, as if at some level, no amount of benevolence and sacrifice would be enough to balance some acts without some suffering involved as well.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I think part of the death penalty's appeal is that it guarantees peace of mind that THIS criminal won't EVER hurt ANYONE again. But it doesn't really give the dead a chance to redeem themselves, if so inclined. All they can offer is their death and they aren't even offering it, it's being enacted forcefully.

So maybe the death penalty negates the worth of suffering, since that suffering isn't because the criminal understands and wants to atone, it's because another criminal act is being perpetrated against the condemned because that person has ceased to be recognized as a human being.

I know people who would insist that adds to the worth since the criminal's life would be taken forcefully. That makes it better, more just. But somehow I don't think so.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

I like where CPD is going with this.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Sorry for derailing your thread, Roger.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Sorry for derailing your thread, Roger.

You know he was gone all day yesterday because power outages, right?

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

Sorry for derailing your thread, Roger.

You know he was gone all day yesterday because power outages, right?

Yup.

[Freeky]

I wouldn't like to think that redemption is out of the question for anyone.  Redemption I think is a thing that only a person can try to grant themselves, but it's a thing can only be sought by the truly repentant.  So, it doesn't matter if other people are like "YUO CANNOT MAKE UP FOR THIS," or " YUO AMS NOT SORRY ENOUGH," it really isn't up to them.  It's a personal thing, made of self-transformation searching and regret and whatnot. 

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

the opportunity for redemption is why i am against the death penalty.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

the opportunity for redemption is why i am against the death penalty.

Well, that and all the people who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[Salty]

RE OP:

Who says those deeds are stacked against one another?

If a person commits a murder, does time, changes, perhaps finds Jesus and becomes afraid of Hell, and does good with their life that's just super.

The act has been committed, the consequences unavoidable and forever etched into history. If that person commits good acts later, for personal atonement or simply because they realize its a better way to live...what does that mean for the victims? That depends on them, but I can tell you now I wouldn't forgive such a person.

Does that mean they shouldnt try to live a better life? No. That's their business, and everyone should try to squeeze out as much good out of life as possible. But why must those deeds be stacked against one another unless forgiveness is a direct and immediate concern?

From an objective perspective there is nothing that should keep people from seeking redemption, if it makes them feel better about it. I certainly try to live my life better then I did before, and I've fucked people over. Nothing big, but there are things that fill me with shame. Does the forgiveness from those people enable me to improve myself? No, I HAVE to do it, with no gratitude, no fanfare, no witnesses to my struggle to redeem myself. I have to because its better to live that way.

From a subjective perspective I don't give a fuck about the people that have fucked me over, I just want then to stay away from me. Should they seek redemption? That is fully, 169% THEIR deal and has got not one thing to do with me. They either will, or they won't. I won't know either way. And if I find out they're doing JUST SWELL and are just chock full of regret I'll think Super and Keep It Away From Me.

Though, to be fair, I only treat people that way in very specific circumstances.

[Pope Pixie Pickle]

the opportunity for redemption is why i am against the death penalty.

Well, that and all the people who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Well, thats kind of a given..

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

RE OP:

Who says those deeds are stacked against one another?

If a person commits a murder, does time, changes, perhaps finds Jesus and becomes afraid of Hell, and does good with their life that's just super.

The act has been committed, the consequences unavoidable and forever etched into history. If that person commits good acts later, for personal atonement or simply because they realize its a better way to live...what does that mean for the victims? That depends on them, but I can tell you now I wouldn't forgive such a person.

Does that mean they shouldnt try to live a better life? No. That's their business, and everyone should try to squeeze out as much good out of life as possible. But why must those deeds be stacked against one another unless forgiveness is a direct and immediate concern?

From an objective perspective there is nothing that should keep people from seeking redemption, if it makes them feel better about it. I certainly try to live my life better then I did before, and I've fucked people over. Nothing big, but there are things that fill me with shame. Does the forgiveness from those people enable me to improve myself? No, I HAVE to do it, with no gratitude, no fanfare, no witnesses to my struggle to redeem myself. I have to because its better to live that way.

From a subjective perspective I don't give a fuck about the people that have fucked me over, I just want then to stay away from me. Should they seek redemption? That is fully, 169% THEIR deal and has got not one thing to do with me. They either will, or they won't. I won't know either way. And if I find out they're doing JUST SWELL and are just chock full of regret I'll think Super and Keep It Away From Me.

Though, to be fair, I only treat people that way in very specific circumstances.

Well, I think that there's kind of the point of the conversation about the difference between redemption and forgiveness. Forgiveness can be given by the injured party, or not, completely independent of redemption, which is more of an internal process IMO, although influenced by social factors.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Further, I think that a person can find redemption without forgiving themselves.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Further, I think that a person can find redemption without forgiving themselves.

This. Maybe not really forgiving yourself is what keeps you working at the redemption.

[hirley0]

10:40:0?