How We Protect At-Risk Kids.

[Doktor Howl]

RWHN, I just want to remind you that policies you support caused this child's death.

Congratulations, you're a baby-killer.

Where have I ever said I support shitty Foster care systems?

Congratulations, you are (still) an idiot.

It's all part of prohibition, asshole.

[The Johnny]

RWHN, I just want to remind you that policies you support caused this child's death.

Congratulations, you're a baby-killer.

Where have I ever said I support shitty Foster care systems?

Congratulations, you are (still) an idiot.

It's all part of prohibition, asshole.

And trigger-happy state intervention?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes, incidental.  I imagine the kid would have been taken away if they had both been alcoholics.  (alcohol being a legal drug).  The system in Texas is the issue here.  It has nothing to do with pot.

he has quite the imagination, I'll give him that.

Is there a definitive method of diagnosing someone as an alcoholic?  A scientifically-based standard of some kind?  Curious, here.

There are guidelines but it's basically subjective. Which is why no child ever is taken from parents "because they're alcoholics"... there has to be actual neglect or abuse to go along with the drinking, because simply drinking a lot of alcohol is not illegal.

You are incorrect.  Treatment providers have evidence-based, research tested assessment protocols for determining when someone has alcohol dependency.

\


And they are all the same, everywhere, and all assessors always use the same protocols and would come to the same conclusion given the same case.



You are so... just kinda dumb. I don't think you know what the word "assessment" even means.

It would be way less cringetastic if you just stopped trying to pretend you are even in the same ballpark with me, intellectually speaking.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Yes, incidental.  I imagine the kid would have been taken away if they had both been alcoholics.  (alcohol being a legal drug).  The system in Texas is the issue here.  It has nothing to do with pot.

he has quite the imagination, I'll give him that.

Is there a definitive method of diagnosing someone as an alcoholic?  A scientifically-based standard of some kind?  Curious, here.

There are guidelines but it's basically subjective. Which is why no child ever is taken from parents "because they're alcoholics"... there has to be actual neglect or abuse to go along with the drinking, because simply drinking a lot of alcohol is not illegal.

You are incorrect.  Treatment providers have evidence-based, research tested assessment protocols for determining when someone has alcohol dependency.

\


And they are all the same, everywhere, and all assessors always use the same protocols and would come to the same conclusion given the same case.



You are so... just kinda dumb. I don't think you know what the word "assessment" even means.

It would be way less cringetastic if you just stopped trying to pretend you are even in the same ballpark with me, intellectually speaking.

His brain is addled from that cup of coffee.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcoholism/DS00340/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

Tests and diagnosis
By Mayo Clinic staff

A doctor who suspects you have an alcohol problem will ask you several questions regarding drinking habits and may have you fill out a questionnaire. The doctor may ask for permission to speak with family members or friends. Family members may also contact the doctor on their own to discuss their concerns. However, confidentiality laws prevent your doctor from giving out any information about you without your consent.

There are no specific tests to diagnose alcoholism, but you may need other tests for health problems that may be linked to your alcohol use.

To be diagnosed with alcoholism, you must meet criteria spelled out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychiatric Association. These include a pattern of alcohol use leading to serious problems, as indicated by three or more of the following at any time during one 12-month period:

    Tolerance, indicated by an increase in the amount of alcohol you need to feel drunk (intoxicated). As alcoholism progresses, the amount leading to intoxication can also decrease as a result of damage to your liver or central nervous system.
    Withdrawal symptoms when you cut down or stop using alcohol. These can include tremors, insomnia, nausea and anxiety. You may drink more alcohol in order to avoid those symptoms, sometimes drinking throughout the day.
    Drinking more alcohol than you intended or drinking over a longer period of time than you intended.
    Having an ongoing desire to cut down on how much you drink or making unsuccessful attempts to do so.
    Spending a good deal of time drinking, getting alcohol or recovering from alcohol use.
    Giving up important activities, including social, occupational or recreational activities.
    Continuing to use alcohol even though you know it's causing physical and psychological problems.

Nah, there's no need for doctors to use their judgment or assess the subjective impact of alcohol use in an individual's life. It's all flatly objective and cut-and-dried, like a blood test. One either IS or IS NOT an alcoholic. Period.

No need to get into quibbly little details.

And CPD regularly takes children out of homes because parents are alcoholics. Not because of abuse or neglect due to their drinking, but because of the alcoholism itself. RWHN says so. You should go read something about how protective services really work, if you don't believe him.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Well were all aware of the strengths of rwhns reading comprehension skills so im sure whatever he would have us read would not in anyway fail to align with what he as an expert in policy has already said.

[AFK]

And they are all the same, everywhere, and all assessors always use the same protocols and would come to the same conclusion given the same case.

You are so... just kinda dumb. I don't think you know what the word "assessment" even means.

I was PAID in a prior job, by the state, to train providers on how to use an assessment, specifically, the JASAE assessment for juveniles.  And in yet another job it was my job to catalog and research the various evidence-based drug and alcohol assessment tools to make recommendations to a school-based provider as to what they should be using. 


You've taken a few college courses. 

It would be way less cringetastic if you just stopped trying to pretend you are even in the same ballpark with me, intellectually speaking.

I'm on the pitcher's mound, you are still trying to find the parking lot.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Short date? 

[AFK]

No, she has a kid.  It's story time. 

[Nephew Twiddleton]

No, she has a kid.  It's story time.

Hope you didn't give the kid any of that devil coffee.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient's drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

It's all rather couched in soft terms. They can talk about symptoms but not a concrete diagnosis. I've been cruising around and I find lots of information about what happens AFTER it has been determined there is an alcohol or substance abuse issue. I see a lot of things that MAY denote such an issue. But I've yet to see one single concrete statement that says "This is exactly what it is and every time you see this situation it means alcoholism or alcohol abuse."

To sum up : Sure there are check lists and protocols and handbooks. But in the end it comes down to subjective judgement. It all depends on interpretation, the human element. Which leads to horrible fuck-ups at least a small part of the time.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient's drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

It's all rather couched in soft terms. They can talk about symptoms but not a concrete diagnosis. I've been cruising around and I find lots of information about what happens AFTER it has been determined there is an alcohol or substance abuse issue. I see a lot of things that MAY denote such an issue. But I've yet to see one single concrete statement that says "This is exactly what it is and every time you see this situation it means alcoholism or alcohol abuse."

To sum up : Sure there are check lists and protocols and handbooks. But in the end it comes down to subjective judgement. It all depends on interpretation, the human element. Which leads to horrible fuck-ups at least a small part of the time.

Yep.

Not that RWHN will ever acknowledge that.

Of course, if he had even the first fucking clue about what he's talking about, and I mean the very first hint of one, which he obviously doesn't, he would no that exactly no child ever has been removed from parental custody with "alcoholism" as a reason. While illegal drug use in and of itself can lead to removal of children from a home, because alcohol use in itself is not illegal, there MUST be other contributing factors for CPD to remove a child from parental custody. Those factors are usually results of alcohol abuse, but they are not, in themselves, "alcoholism" per se. There are so many problems with his statements about "alcoholism" that it is absolutely not in the least little bit funny... for example, a child services investigator could certainly refer a parent for evaluation for alcoholism, but they could not diagnose them. Nor could a diagnosing specialist share that diagnosis with CPD, due to this crazy little rule we like to call "HIPAA" http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html.

In fact, due to alcoholism's classification as a "disease", whether you agree with it or not, there are even more interesting little rules around it. These are not rules that make it legal or OK for people to abuse or neglect their children, but they are rules that specifically forbid things like, say, taking someone's children away due to a diagnosis.

The bottom line is, unlike the illegal act of consuming marijuana, the completely legal act of consuming alcohol, even to excess, is not enough in and of itself for CPD to legally remove children from the parental home. 

But then, chodeworthy there isn't terribly bright, so it's not like we can expect him to understand the difference when he's talking about a field he is clearly almost entirely ignorant of.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient's drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

It's all rather couched in soft terms. They can talk about symptoms but not a concrete diagnosis. I've been cruising around and I find lots of information about what happens AFTER it has been determined there is an alcohol or substance abuse issue. I see a lot of things that MAY denote such an issue. But I've yet to see one single concrete statement that says "This is exactly what it is and every time you see this situation it means alcoholism or alcohol abuse."

To sum up : Sure there are check lists and protocols and handbooks. But in the end it comes down to subjective judgement. It all depends on interpretation, the human element. Which leads to horrible fuck-ups at least a small part of the time.

Yep.

Not that RWHN will ever acknowledge that.

Of course, if he had even the first fucking clue about what he's talking about, and I mean the very first hint of one, which he obviously doesn't, he would no that exactly no child ever has been removed from parental custody with "alcoholism" as a reason. While illegal drug use in and of itself can lead to removal of children from a home, because alcohol use in itself is not illegal, there MUST be other contributing factors for CPD to remove a child from parental custody. Those factors are usually results of alcohol abuse, but they are not, in themselves, "alcoholism" per se. There are so many problems with his statements about "alcoholism" that it is absolutely not in the least little bit funny... for example, a child services investigator could certainly refer a parent for evaluation for alcoholism, but they could not diagnose them. Nor could a diagnosing specialist share that diagnosis with CPD, due to this crazy little rule we like to call "HIPAA" http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html.

In fact, due to alcoholism's classification as a "disease", whether you agree with it or not, there are even more interesting little rules around it. These are not rules that make it legal or OK for people to abuse or neglect their children, but they are rules that specifically forbid things like, say, taking someone's children away due to a diagnosis.

The bottom line is, unlike the illegal act of consuming marijuana, the completely legal act of consuming alcohol, even to excess, is not enough in and of itself for CPD to legally remove children from the parental home. 

But then, chodeworthy there isn't terribly bright, so it's not like we can expect him to understand the difference when he's talking about a field he is clearly almost entirely ignorant of.

I'm not sure how people are in Maine, but I imagine that we all grew up with some friend whose parent, in retrospect, was clearly an alcoholic, but was otherwise a pretty good parent, and didn't let the booze get in the way of them being a pretty good parent. Some people get really nice when they're drunk. Others turn into raging abusive assholes. It's not the alcohol that's causing that, it's the alcohol that's removing the behavioral filter.

[Ben Shapiro]

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient's drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

It's all rather couched in soft terms. They can talk about symptoms but not a concrete diagnosis. I've been cruising around and I find lots of information about what happens AFTER it has been determined there is an alcohol or substance abuse issue. I see a lot of things that MAY denote such an issue. But I've yet to see one single concrete statement that says "This is exactly what it is and every time you see this situation it means alcoholism or alcohol abuse."

To sum up : Sure there are check lists and protocols and handbooks. But in the end it comes down to subjective judgement. It all depends on interpretation, the human element. Which leads to horrible fuck-ups at least a small part of the time.

Yep.

Not that RWHN will ever acknowledge that.

Of course, if he had even the first fucking clue about what he's talking about, and I mean the very first hint of one, which he obviously doesn't, he would no that exactly no child ever has been removed from parental custody with "alcoholism" as a reason. While illegal drug use in and of itself can lead to removal of children from a home, because alcohol use in itself is not illegal, there MUST be other contributing factors for CPD to remove a child from parental custody. Those factors are usually results of alcohol abuse, but they are not, in themselves, "alcoholism" per se. There are so many problems with his statements about "alcoholism" that it is absolutely not in the least little bit funny... for example, a child services investigator could certainly refer a parent for evaluation for alcoholism, but they could not diagnose them. Nor could a diagnosing specialist share that diagnosis with CPD, due to this crazy little rule we like to call "HIPAA" http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html.

In fact, due to alcoholism's classification as a "disease", whether you agree with it or not, there are even more interesting little rules around it. These are not rules that make it legal or OK for people to abuse or neglect their children, but they are rules that specifically forbid things like, say, taking someone's children away due to a diagnosis.

The bottom line is, unlike the illegal act of consuming marijuana, the completely legal act of consuming alcohol, even to excess, is not enough in and of itself for CPD to legally remove children from the parental home. 

But then, chodeworthy there isn't terribly bright, so it's not like we can expect him to understand the difference when he's talking about a field he is clearly almost entirely ignorant of.

I'm not sure how people are in Maine, but I imagine that we all grew up with some friend whose parent, in retrospect, was clearly an alcoholic, but was otherwise a pretty good parent, and didn't let the booze get in the way of them being a pretty good parent. Some people get really nice when they're drunk. Others turn into raging abusive assholes. It's not the alcohol that's causing that, it's the alcohol that's removing the behavioral filter.

My dad beat the shit out of me after doing lines of Folgers, and injecting milk into his veins.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders

Alcohol use disorders are medical conditions that doctors can diagnose when a patient's drinking causes distress or harm. In the United States, about 18 million people have an alcohol use disorder, classified as either alcohol dependence—perhaps better known as alcoholism—or alcohol abuse.

Alcoholism, the more serious of the disorders, is a disease that includes symptoms such as:

Craving—A strong need, or urge, to drink.
Loss of control—Not being able to stop drinking once drinking has begun.
Physical dependence—Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety after stopping drinking.
Tolerance—The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol to feel the same effect.

It's all rather couched in soft terms. They can talk about symptoms but not a concrete diagnosis. I've been cruising around and I find lots of information about what happens AFTER it has been determined there is an alcohol or substance abuse issue. I see a lot of things that MAY denote such an issue. But I've yet to see one single concrete statement that says "This is exactly what it is and every time you see this situation it means alcoholism or alcohol abuse."

To sum up : Sure there are check lists and protocols and handbooks. But in the end it comes down to subjective judgement. It all depends on interpretation, the human element. Which leads to horrible fuck-ups at least a small part of the time.

Yep.

Not that RWHN will ever acknowledge that.

Of course, if he had even the first fucking clue about what he's talking about, and I mean the very first hint of one, which he obviously doesn't, he would no that exactly no child ever has been removed from parental custody with "alcoholism" as a reason. While illegal drug use in and of itself can lead to removal of children from a home, because alcohol use in itself is not illegal, there MUST be other contributing factors for CPD to remove a child from parental custody. Those factors are usually results of alcohol abuse, but they are not, in themselves, "alcoholism" per se. There are so many problems with his statements about "alcoholism" that it is absolutely not in the least little bit funny... for example, a child services investigator could certainly refer a parent for evaluation for alcoholism, but they could not diagnose them. Nor could a diagnosing specialist share that diagnosis with CPD, due to this crazy little rule we like to call "HIPAA" http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html.

In fact, due to alcoholism's classification as a "disease", whether you agree with it or not, there are even more interesting little rules around it. These are not rules that make it legal or OK for people to abuse or neglect their children, but they are rules that specifically forbid things like, say, taking someone's children away due to a diagnosis.

The bottom line is, unlike the illegal act of consuming marijuana, the completely legal act of consuming alcohol, even to excess, is not enough in and of itself for CPD to legally remove children from the parental home. 

But then, chodeworthy there isn't terribly bright, so it's not like we can expect him to understand the difference when he's talking about a field he is clearly almost entirely ignorant of.

I'm not sure how people are in Maine, but I imagine that we all grew up with some friend whose parent, in retrospect, was clearly an alcoholic, but was otherwise a pretty good parent, and didn't let the booze get in the way of them being a pretty good parent. Some people get really nice when they're drunk. Others turn into raging abusive assholes. It's not the alcohol that's causing that, it's the alcohol that's removing the behavioral filter.

My dad beat the shit out of me after doing lines of Folgers, and injecting milk into his veins.