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Why I'm not an Atheist

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, September 30, 2013, 06:18:12 PM

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Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 04:08:59 PM
The local Unitarian church has a bunch of atheists. They might be a reasonable final destination for your spiritual adventures, since there's coffee and they give zero fucks what you worship or how.

Funny enough, I thought to eventually sign on as a UU so there's a building to put my coffin in at some point, and the lack of fucks they give would be appropriate.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cain on October 01, 2013, 03:42:42 PM
QuoteI was brought up in a WASP's nest.

I was brought up in an actual wasp's nest.  You either believed in the Great Hornet Skygod, whose representative on Earth is the hive queen, or you get out.

:lulz:
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Cramulus on October 01, 2013, 04:04:00 PM
Quote from: Twigel on October 01, 2013, 03:30:23 PM
I thought it meant without god(s) originally? I could see it being used that way in the Middle Ages, but I think the ancient use of the term was similar to ours.

There was atheist thought in ancient times, most definitely -- but I think the word atheist itself didn't start getting tossed around until the 16th century





QuoteI think though, that there is something about the group identity as far as religious beliefs go that has had an effect on modern atheism.  Not only are atheists kinda herded together by theists because everyone needs to be lumped in a group, but people for some reason see it as their business what you believe.


While the tribal politics are regrettable, I do think it's good for atheists to be established and visible.

Because I think people need to understand that not everybody is religious. I'd rather have a moment of silence than a moment of prayer. For some reason, you need a group identity for those demands to seem valid. Lots of people assume that if you just make the religious references vague enough (ie "in God we trust") nobody will be left out.

That's a valid point.

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


tyrannosaurus vex

I have this debate with my wife quite a bit. She's fairly more rabidly atheist than I am. She tends to take any mention of God as a direct personal offense. She wants all references to God, religious texts and traditions, everything removed from public spaces. She will immediately hate a person if they break or even disagree with these points (hopefully myself excluded). Personally, I don't care too much. Public prayer, posting the 10 Commandments, baby Jesus and his crew set up in the park during Christmas time, I don't really consider that enforced religion. It's more cultural than spiritual. The line for me is when those things stop being symbolic and ornamental, and start being the basis for actual public policy.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Suu

Quote from: V3X on October 01, 2013, 04:35:38 PM
I have this debate with my wife quite a bit. She's fairly more rabidly atheist than I am. She tends to take any mention of God as a direct personal offense. She wants all references to God, religious texts and traditions, everything removed from public spaces. She will immediately hate a person if they break or even disagree with these points (hopefully myself excluded). Personally, I don't care too much. Public prayer, posting the 10 Commandments, baby Jesus and his crew set up in the park during Christmas time, I don't really consider that enforced religion. It's more cultural than spiritual. The line for me is when those things stop being symbolic and ornamental, and start being the basis for actual public policy.

Your wife is the type of Atheist I can't stand. Sorry.
Sovereign Episkopos-Princess Kaousuu; Esq., Battle Nun, Bene Gesserit.
Our Lady of Perpetual Confusion; 1st Church of Discordia

"Add a dab of lavender to milk, leave town with an orange, and pretend you're laughing at it."

tyrannosaurus vex

Quote from: Suu on October 01, 2013, 04:41:56 PM
Quote from: V3X on October 01, 2013, 04:35:38 PM
I have this debate with my wife quite a bit. She's fairly more rabidly atheist than I am. She tends to take any mention of God as a direct personal offense. She wants all references to God, religious texts and traditions, everything removed from public spaces. She will immediately hate a person if they break or even disagree with these points (hopefully myself excluded). Personally, I don't care too much. Public prayer, posting the 10 Commandments, baby Jesus and his crew set up in the park during Christmas time, I don't really consider that enforced religion. It's more cultural than spiritual. The line for me is when those things stop being symbolic and ornamental, and start being the basis for actual public policy.

Your wife is the type of Atheist I can't stand. Sorry.

Yeah, she's the type of atheist I can't stand either, but we work it out. We have way more interesting things to fight about anyway.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Here's that Sapolsky lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI

Worth noting:

QuoteTo Dr. Robert Sapolsky, the question of religion isn't whether "God" or gods exist. It's more along the lines of, as he says, "How would a stridently atheistic scientist use neurobiology to make sense out of religion?

"This is irresistible for a neurobiologist," he continues, "but it would be just as easy to try to make sense out of atheism."
(from http://www.csindy.com/coloradosprings/neurobiologist-robert-sapolsky-spreads-the-good-word-about-brains-and-religion/Content?oid=2652816)
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Q. G. Pennyworth

I like nativities (and menorahs) on public spaces, but public prayer and commandments bother me a lot. I guess the way I see it is that the public space is there to be used by the public, and it's a dick thing to tell people YOU CAN'T SET UP BABY JEEBUS BECAUSE OTHER FOLKS MIGHT HAVE FEELS, but posting the commandments in a courthouse or having a public official leading a prayer is more the government and its representatives endorsing a specific religion (or family of religions).

Salty

A lot of how I feel about this has already been said. The idea of GAWD just never enters my life until someone else brings it up.

Krishnamurti say: belief and disbelief are both acts of ignorance, each actively ignoring the possibility of the other.
The world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.

Suu

Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 04:48:21 PM
I like nativities (and menorahs) on public spaces, but public prayer and commandments bother me a lot. I guess the way I see it is that the public space is there to be used by the public, and it's a dick thing to tell people YOU CAN'T SET UP BABY JEEBUS BECAUSE OTHER FOLKS MIGHT HAVE FEELS, but posting the commandments in a courthouse or having a public official leading a prayer is more the government and its representatives endorsing a specific religion (or family of religions).

Both the Senate and the House have chaplains that lead a daily non-denominational prayer to an unmentioned "Lord." Remember, the 1st only says that Congress shall make no law regarding the free practice of religion, and cannot favor one religion over another. There is actually nothing written in the Constitution that states, directly, the total separation of church and state. That phrase from what I understand was yanked from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. A non-denominational prayer doesn't bother me, I kind of have more important things to worry about than somebody else's Invisible Sky Man. Hell, in theory, even an atheist could say that their "lord" is science.

It's a lot of gray area, actually. We had this discussion in my Religious Studies class already.
Sovereign Episkopos-Princess Kaousuu; Esq., Battle Nun, Bene Gesserit.
Our Lady of Perpetual Confusion; 1st Church of Discordia

"Add a dab of lavender to milk, leave town with an orange, and pretend you're laughing at it."

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: :regret: on September 30, 2013, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on September 30, 2013, 08:13:40 PM
I have had a theory for a while that religious denominations tend to attract people of particular genetic mental predispositions.
I wanted to say something else, but when i read this i completely forgot what i wanted to say.
Seriously? genetic mental predispositions? I have a book on genetics you really should read.

Anyway, If asked about my religion i would now say "Go away" or "Leave me alone".

You might want to check out that lecture I just posted, and also http://www.nih.gov/news/health/aug2013/nimh-12.htm

QuoteThe largest genome-wide study of its kind has determined how much five major mental illnesses are traceable to the same common inherited genetic variations. Researchers funded in part by the National Institutes of Health found that the overlap was highest between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder; moderate for bipolar disorder and depression and for ADHD and depression; and low between schizophrenia and autism. Overall, common genetic variation accounted for 17-28 percent of risk for the illnesses.

"Since our study only looked at common gene variants, the total genetic overlap between the disorders is likely higher," explained Naomi Wray, Ph.D.  External Web Site Policy , University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia, who co-led the multi-site study by the Cross Disorders Group of the Psychiatric Genomics Consortium (PGC), which is supported by the NIH's National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). "Shared variants with smaller effects, rare variants, mutations, duplications, deletions, and gene-environment interactions also contribute to these illnesses."
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Q. G. Pennyworth

Quote from: Suu on October 01, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 04:48:21 PM
I like nativities (and menorahs) on public spaces, but public prayer and commandments bother me a lot. I guess the way I see it is that the public space is there to be used by the public, and it's a dick thing to tell people YOU CAN'T SET UP BABY JEEBUS BECAUSE OTHER FOLKS MIGHT HAVE FEELS, but posting the commandments in a courthouse or having a public official leading a prayer is more the government and its representatives endorsing a specific religion (or family of religions).

Both the Senate and the House have chaplains that lead a daily non-denominational prayer to an unmentioned "Lord." Remember, the 1st only says that Congress shall make no law regarding the free practice of religion, and cannot favor one religion over another. There is actually nothing written in the Constitution that states, directly, the total separation of church and state. That phrase from what I understand was yanked from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. A non-denominational prayer doesn't bother me, I kind of have more important things to worry about than somebody else's Invisible Sky Man. Hell, in theory, even an atheist could say that their "lord" is science.

It's a lot of gray area, actually. We had this discussion in my Religious Studies class already.

It rubs me the wrong way, doesn't mean it's unconstitutional or should be banned.

Nephew Twiddleton

Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
Quote from: Suu on October 01, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 04:48:21 PM
I like nativities (and menorahs) on public spaces, but public prayer and commandments bother me a lot. I guess the way I see it is that the public space is there to be used by the public, and it's a dick thing to tell people YOU CAN'T SET UP BABY JEEBUS BECAUSE OTHER FOLKS MIGHT HAVE FEELS, but posting the commandments in a courthouse or having a public official leading a prayer is more the government and its representatives endorsing a specific religion (or family of religions).

Both the Senate and the House have chaplains that lead a daily non-denominational prayer to an unmentioned "Lord." Remember, the 1st only says that Congress shall make no law regarding the free practice of religion, and cannot favor one religion over another. There is actually nothing written in the Constitution that states, directly, the total separation of church and state. That phrase from what I understand was yanked from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. A non-denominational prayer doesn't bother me, I kind of have more important things to worry about than somebody else's Invisible Sky Man. Hell, in theory, even an atheist could say that their "lord" is science.

It's a lot of gray area, actually. We had this discussion in my Religious Studies class already.

It rubs me the wrong way, doesn't mean it's unconstitutional or should be banned.

Well, appealing to the Emperor of the Universe for his blessing on republican undertakings is a pretty strange custom when you think about it. It should rub you the wrong way.
Strange and Terrible Organ Laminator of Yesterday's Heavy Scene
Sentence or sentence fragment pending

Soy El Vaquero Peludo de Oro

TIM AM I, PRIMARY OF THE EXTRA-ATMOSPHERIC SIMIANS

Reginald Ret

Quote from: Mean Mister Nigel on October 01, 2013, 05:20:39 PM
Quote from: :regret: on September 30, 2013, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on September 30, 2013, 08:13:40 PM
I have had a theory for a while that religious denominations tend to attract people of particular genetic mental predispositions.
I wanted to say something else, but when i read this i completely forgot what i wanted to say.
Seriously? genetic mental predispositions? I have a book on genetics you really should read.

Anyway, If asked about my religion i would now say "Go away" or "Leave me alone".

You might want to check out that lecture I just posted, and also http://www.nih.gov/news/health/aug2013/nimh-12.htm

QuoteThe largest genome-wide study of its kind has determined how much five major mental illnesses are traceable to the same common inherited genetic variations. Researchers funded in part by the National Institutes of Health found that the overlap was highest between schizophrenia and bipolar disorder; moderate for bipolar disorder and depression and for ADHD and depression; and low between schizophrenia and autism. Overall, common genetic variation accounted for 17-28 percent of risk for the illnesses.

"Since our study only looked at common gene variants, the total genetic overlap between the disorders is likely higher," explained Naomi Wray, Ph.D.  External Web Site Policy , University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia, who co-led the multi-site study by the Cross Disorders Group of the Psychiatric Genomics Consortium (PGC), which is supported by the NIH's National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH). "Shared variants with smaller effects, rare variants, mutations, duplications, deletions, and gene-environment interactions also contribute to these illnesses."
Interesting link! I may take the time to watch that lecture later, not now though.
Alright, i must concede the existence of genetic mental predispositions. Thinking about it some more.
Lord Byron: "Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves."

Nigel saying the wisest words ever uttered: "It's just a suffix."

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Suu

Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
Quote from: Suu on October 01, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Sad Sack on October 01, 2013, 04:48:21 PM
I like nativities (and menorahs) on public spaces, but public prayer and commandments bother me a lot. I guess the way I see it is that the public space is there to be used by the public, and it's a dick thing to tell people YOU CAN'T SET UP BABY JEEBUS BECAUSE OTHER FOLKS MIGHT HAVE FEELS, but posting the commandments in a courthouse or having a public official leading a prayer is more the government and its representatives endorsing a specific religion (or family of religions).

Both the Senate and the House have chaplains that lead a daily non-denominational prayer to an unmentioned "Lord." Remember, the 1st only says that Congress shall make no law regarding the free practice of religion, and cannot favor one religion over another. There is actually nothing written in the Constitution that states, directly, the total separation of church and state. That phrase from what I understand was yanked from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. A non-denominational prayer doesn't bother me, I kind of have more important things to worry about than somebody else's Invisible Sky Man. Hell, in theory, even an atheist could say that their "lord" is science.

It's a lot of gray area, actually. We had this discussion in my Religious Studies class already.

It rubs me the wrong way, doesn't mean it's unconstitutional or should be banned.


I totally agree, but it is what it is. Though the concept of total separation of church and state has come up before, and although plausible, it would create some serious issues involving taxation and quite a bit of red tape. It could also effect things such as city and town decorations at holidays, even something as simple and secular as a strand of lights. I can see the Grumpy Cat Atheists going, "GOOD!" over something like that, but is it really worth the time and effort to remove shiny things from public spaces? In other words: If it's not broke, don't fix it. our system isn't flawless, but it could be worse, A LOT worse, and it costs money to pass an amendment, especially one that is coming at a really sensitive time in the country. We can't even balance a budget and you want separation of church and state on the books? Ech. Not to mention, the oppositional arguments would be a thing of LEGEND. A mumble of a non-denominational invocation at the beginning of a Congressional session and a Menorah in Downtown Providence are really very low on my list of priorities. The fact that the Commissary is closing indefinitely because of this fucking shutdown, however...


Sovereign Episkopos-Princess Kaousuu; Esq., Battle Nun, Bene Gesserit.
Our Lady of Perpetual Confusion; 1st Church of Discordia

"Add a dab of lavender to milk, leave town with an orange, and pretend you're laughing at it."