Why I'm not an Atheist

[Cuddlefish]

Related to the 'biology/belief' connection discussion on the first page, here's an interesting take on it by Michael Shermer from 'Skeptic' magazine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o

[Cainad (dec.)]

I come from a similar boat as Nigel in this regard (which is hilarious, considering every other aspect of our backgrounds are from alternate universes). I was raised without any real sense of a religion to rebel against.

I had some adolescent flailings around with different belief systems, including atheism. But I just sort of felt that, after a while, I'd made my point about "not believing" and there wasn't anything more to say on the matter. I couldn't build my identity around rejecting something that hadn't been a part of my life in the first place. Discordianism and its ilk offered a lot more to talk about, once you got past the pinealfnord23 part.

I live my life in the manner of an atheist, with a lowercase "A," because thoughts of a deity don't factor into how I make my decisions, large or small.*

The labels I've found to best describe my thinking (specifically my thinking, rather than describing me) are apatheism and ignosticism. Apatheism describes my day-to-day thinking, and ignosticism describes my philosophical perspective when I'm cornered into a theological discussion about the concept of a deity as described in most major religions.

(btw I totally skipped most of this thread so if someone else already brought these up my apologies)


*Unless it's a REALLY trivial decision, in which case I sometimes invoke an appropriate deity just because

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I hear the "my religion was bad and here's why i'm going to vent my lingering frustrations with the traditions i was brought up in to you " argument sometimes, but then I look around at other human systems and note that it really doesn't seem to be specific to religion at all.

Fixed

Yeah, I think you about nailed it. And I think that possibly I don't "get" atheism because I wasn't raised religious.

I was raised by Anglicans.  Religion is something you do behind closed doors, and you wash your hands afterward.  So, yeah, nothing to rebel against.

Those are basically the same as Episcopalians, right? Pacifists, ecumenical, anti-bigotry, generally emphasize kindness and keeping out of everyone's face? Yep, nothing to rebel against, really. My ex-husband brought his Episcopal priest home to try to convert me, once. We had a nice conversation and it ended with the priest saying "I see your perspective, and it's valid".

Anglicans are more "Religion is for Sunday, and the vicar had best not talk a bunch of piss, even then."

Anglican services are more a reminder "God is there", than a set of instructions or indoctrination.

At least Canadian Anglicans.  Results may vary.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So I was raised as a crazy JW... at the age of 6, I was hospitalized with a kidney problem. I had an operation with no blood transfusion permitted. In the days following the operation, the Doctor said that my blood count was dangerously low and that without a transfusion I may die. My parents refused and I recall vividly, crying and telling the Doctor that I would die faithful to Jehovah and 'please don't give me blood'. That, among many other experiences should probably have made me a screaming atheist. It didn't. After I left the JW's, I became a pagan, studied Wicca and was looking at initiation... but I couldn't get past the obvious BS involved in that. I bounced around several systems, and fortunately for me, I read the PD and it all suddenly became completely clear. That was followed up by Quantum Psychology, Angel Tech, Prometheus Rising etc and it led me to the position I now hold. Which basically boils down to 'I don't know, you don't know... but these moldy old books and scrolls are full of contradictions, errors and outright lies... therefore, we can discount them.

Everything else, seems pretty easily explainable by God being a Crazy Woman. 

As for the believers, I figure they can believe what they want, its all about embracing their nonsense, as well as the scientific sense

[Nephew Twiddleton]

So I was raised as a crazy JW... at the age of 6, I was hospitalized with a kidney problem. I had an operation with no blood transfusion permitted. In the days following the operation, the Doctor said that my blood count was dangerously low and that without a transfusion I may die. My parents refused and I recall vividly, crying and telling the Doctor that I would die faithful to Jehovah and 'please don't give me blood'. That, among many other experiences should probably have made me a screaming atheist. It didn't. After I left the JW's, I became a pagan, studied Wicca and was looking at initiation... but I couldn't get past the obvious BS involved in that. I bounced around several systems, and fortunately for me, I read the PD and it all suddenly became completely clear. That was followed up by Quantum Psychology, Angel Tech, Prometheus Rising etc and it led me to the position I now hold. Which basically boils down to 'I don't know, you don't know... but these moldy old books and scrolls are full of contradictions, errors and outright lies... therefore, we can discount them.

Everything else, seems pretty easily explainable by God being a Crazy Woman. 

As for the believers, I figure they can believe what they want, its all about embracing their nonsense, as well as the scientific sense

Holy shit. I knew you were a JW but that's some fucked up shit.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Related to the 'biology/belief' connection discussion on the first page, here's an interesting take on it by Michael Shermer from 'Skeptic' magazine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o

Hmmm I think I've seen that one before, I'll have to re-watch it after class.

[hooplala]

So I have a bunch of friends who are Atheists. Some are more into it than others; I tend to avoid the ones who are really into it, because honestly it creeps me out a little.

Maybe it's because I wasn't raised particularly religious, and had almost no childhood exposure to organized religion.

Maybe it's because I was raised in the relatively religion-neutral Pacific Northwest. I don't really have anything to react against.

But I completely don't understand identifying oneself based on something that doesn't exist. I can't even really wrap my head around it. What does it mean? Hey guys I'm not a person who believes in a thing that doesn't exist!

I guess technically I'm an atheist; I don't believe in a god per se, although I do believe in my own existence and the existence of biological systems and therefore I suppose I believe in the great ecosystem of which we are a part, which is, in a sense, god. To me.

I'm not really sure what god is or what it means, outside of the religions which spell out what it means. I don't believe in those. I wouldn't call myself an atheist (because that makes absolutely no sense to me) but I'm not religious. However, I don't generally define myself by what I'm not. There are far, far too many things that I am not than things that I am, and unlike the God that Atheists define themselves by not believing in most of those things actually exist.

One of my friends/rivals, a crazy nascent biologist and slightly scary Atheist dude, is actually taking a class on Atheism this term. I am thinking that maybe I should take that class, it might explain a few things for me, about these people who define themselves by not believing in something that doesn't exist.

I haven't read any of the replies yet, so please forgive me if what I'm about to post is largely cock and repost.


I do consider myself an atheist, but I don't go around defining myself publicly as such, and honestly don't think about it all that much.  I decided around the age of 13 that I truly didn't believe, in my heart, in a god.  At that time I wanted to believe, but just didn't... I do not hold that wish for belief anymore.

The reason I think there are more and more "out" atheists is because there has been a major turnaround in christianity in the last 15 years, roughly just before the Bush administration by my reckoning*.  Many of these hardcore christians hold positions of power and influence.  If people who could control my life one way or the other didn't believe in their God, and also believe that their God had a say in how I ran my life, it would be a moot issue, and would likely never come up.  I also do not believe in the Tooth Fairy, but people making public policy rarely do either, so it's all good.

If someone ever asks me what I believe, I am an atheist, and the rabid in-your-face atheists don't frighten me away from the word.  And maybe some day belief in some thing in the sky will fade away and I will not be called on to define myself based on something which does not exist.




*Or, possibly that's when I grew aware enough about global culture to become aware of something which has always been around.  Though, from my reading there seems to have been a general swing toward heavier Christianity around the Carter administration, which carried over into Reagan, and then steadily climbed from there.

[hooplala]

1st reply pre-thread-read (i did read OP though)

What i do not like about atheism is its inherent vindictiveness... to me it personally reeks of angry teenager that is trying to "ill-show-you-people!!!". It's more a matter of tone rather than posture, I can emphatize with "silent atheists" that don't run amok among the world preaching it or thinking they are so special and "radical" thinking their belief makes them better people.

In fact the goddamn tone of of "holier than thou" directly parallels to "smarter than thou" which each respective clan generally represents... "oh, im a miserable fuck bordering on sociopathy, but im religious so that makes me righteous" contrasted to "oh, im so intellectually superior, me is uber-menschen!!!"... NO, BOTH OF YOU, SHUT THE FUCK UP. I dont care what your belief system is (anymore), what i care about is what you DO, not what you SAY. If being religious, or being a-religious gives the same conclusion of you being a monster then what difference does it make?

I'm agnostic, because believing god doesnt exist is as good in the scale of critical thinking as believing god exists. Stop bothering me with your silly answers to silly questions, monkeys, im KIND OF busy doing things that dont pertain to invisible unperceptible beings!

haha. bolded is pretty much where I stand. I describe myself as a hardcore agnostic for reasons that are- it winds up the uber-atheism crowd, and I'm pretty much seen by theists and atheists as a secular humanist, being as I don't know, can't prove either argument and I think the world at large has have more important things to think about, like STOP BEING DICKS TO EACH OTHER. I used to be pretty fucking outlandishly pagan though until about 18 months before I went talky head gremlin crazy and occams razor'd my way through the bonkers using SCIENCE.

Both my  religious acquaintances and my atheist friends think my stance is weird tho. they are all BUT ORIGINS! WHY ARE WE HERE? and I'm all quit your navel gazing and encourage people to be less of a dick. Incidentally this is why I like Buddhism and Taoism but without the woo, as it's about ethics.

Atheism and agnosticism are not answering the same question though.  Most people don't seem to get that.  You can be both.  In fact you should be both, if you self-define as atheist, since by definition you simply cannot know.

[hooplala]

Overheard in Dunkin Donuts on Sunday-----------------

Beardo wearing a wolf shirt was explaining the world to his friend:

"Here's how I see it --- if you say you don't believe in something, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Because if it didn't exist, why bring it up? It has to exist in order for you to say you don't believe in it. Atheists are essentially hypocrites."




CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS

Ohhhh how I wish I had been there.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

1st reply pre-thread-read (i did read OP though)

What i do not like about atheism is its inherent vindictiveness... to me it personally reeks of angry teenager that is trying to "ill-show-you-people!!!". It's more a matter of tone rather than posture, I can emphatize with "silent atheists" that don't run amok among the world preaching it or thinking they are so special and "radical" thinking their belief makes them better people.

In fact the goddamn tone of of "holier than thou" directly parallels to "smarter than thou" which each respective clan generally represents... "oh, im a miserable fuck bordering on sociopathy, but im religious so that makes me righteous" contrasted to "oh, im so intellectually superior, me is uber-menschen!!!"... NO, BOTH OF YOU, SHUT THE FUCK UP. I dont care what your belief system is (anymore), what i care about is what you DO, not what you SAY. If being religious, or being a-religious gives the same conclusion of you being a monster then what difference does it make?

I'm agnostic, because believing god doesnt exist is as good in the scale of critical thinking as believing god exists. Stop bothering me with your silly answers to silly questions, monkeys, im KIND OF busy doing things that dont pertain to invisible unperceptible beings!

haha. bolded is pretty much where I stand. I describe myself as a hardcore agnostic for reasons that are- it winds up the uber-atheism crowd, and I'm pretty much seen by theists and atheists as a secular humanist, being as I don't know, can't prove either argument and I think the world at large has have more important things to think about, like STOP BEING DICKS TO EACH OTHER. I used to be pretty fucking outlandishly pagan though until about 18 months before I went talky head gremlin crazy and occams razor'd my way through the bonkers using SCIENCE.

Both my  religious acquaintances and my atheist friends think my stance is weird tho. they are all BUT ORIGINS! WHY ARE WE HERE? and I'm all quit your navel gazing and encourage people to be less of a dick. Incidentally this is why I like Buddhism and Taoism but without the woo, as it's about ethics.

Atheism and agnosticism are not answering the same question though.  Most people don't seem to get that.  You can be both.  In fact you should be both, if you self-define as atheist, since by definition you simply cannot know.

The only difference between a gnostic and an agnostic is that the gnostic is certain in his unprovable position. I consider myself an agnostic theist.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm an gnostic agnostic.

GODS?  WHO NEEDS 'EM?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm an gnostic agnostic.

GODS?  WHO NEEDS 'EM?

People who think that their ability to do nice things derives from some cosmic wristslapper.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm an gnostic agnostic.

GODS?  WHO NEEDS 'EM?

People who think that their ability to do nice things derives from some cosmic wristslapper.

MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

The ENTIRE basis of Judeo/Christian beliefs is FREE WILL.  It's the whole Goddamn point of the exercise.  You do good works because you WANT to, and in the end you are judged on the intentions you had behind the acts driven by your free will...And free will used specifically to gain stature, etc, DON'T COUNT.  MML&J was very clear on that point, as was Acts I & II, and most of the friggin' Torah and Talmud.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm an gnostic agnostic.

GODS?  WHO NEEDS 'EM?

People who think that their ability to do nice things derives from some cosmic wristslapper.

MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

The ENTIRE basis of Judeo/Christian beliefs is FREE WILL.  It's the whole Goddamn point of the exercise.  You do good works because you WANT to, and in the end you are judged on the intentions you had behind the acts driven by your free will...And free will used specifically to gain stature, etc, DON'T COUNT.  MML&J was very clear on that point, as was Acts I & II, and most of the friggin' Torah and Talmud.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think its funny that some people think Earth would fall into a state of savagery without a god telling us which choices to make, and then applying free will to those, with the implication that without gods to tell them what is nice and what is not nice, they themselves would choose to behave in completely self-serving, non-altruistic ways. It's an admission that they're closet sociopaths.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm an gnostic agnostic.

GODS?  WHO NEEDS 'EM?

People who think that their ability to do nice things derives from some cosmic wristslapper.

MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

The ENTIRE basis of Judeo/Christian beliefs is FREE WILL.  It's the whole Goddamn point of the exercise.  You do good works because you WANT to, and in the end you are judged on the intentions you had behind the acts driven by your free will...And free will used specifically to gain stature, etc, DON'T COUNT.  MML&J was very clear on that point, as was Acts I & II, and most of the friggin' Torah and Talmud.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just think its funny that some people think Earth would fall into a state of savagery without a god telling us which choices to make, and then applying free will to those, with the implication that without gods to tell them what is nice and what is not nice, they themselves would choose to behave in completely self-serving, non-altruistic ways. It's an admission that they're closet sociopaths.

Sorry was talking about that sort of person, not you.  My bad.