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Thread is now about Holist.

Started by The Good Reverend Roger, October 08, 2013, 07:08:46 PM

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Mesozoic Mister Nigel

By certain logic, Cyndi Lauper is more "authentic" than Madonna.

Whatever the fuck that means.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

#136
redacted
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

AFK

Nah, they both seemed to be pretty in control of their image and art.  One was just a lot better at marketing herself, and set the example and template for many who would follow, but never quite measure up.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 10, 2013, 04:58:01 PM
Cyndi Lauper went on to make ten more albums (her second album, "True Colors", was actually more popular than the one with "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun) and write music for Hollywood and Broadway, she's fabulously successful, just not in top-40 pop. Your point still works using her as an example of someone who didn't care about using shock and faded from the tabloid pages, but I thought you'd want to know that her career didn't exactly fizzle.

Well, that's good to hear.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

EK WAFFLR

Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 09, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 07:39:44 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?


Moonsorrow

Are you fucking kidding me? I love Moonsorrow, but boy do they enjoy their moneys.
According to your definitions,they're not artists.
"At first I lifted weights.  But then I asked myself, 'why not people?'  Now everyone runs for the fjord when they see me."


Horribly Oscillating Assbasket of Deliciousness
[/b]

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

EK WAFFLR

Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 05:00:36 PM
Part 4
The Scum Also Rises

The Beach Boys formed in 1961, to sing to people in 1951.  They WERE the 50s.  Wholesomely dressed young men singing wholesome songs, and getting insanely fucked up when nobody was looking.  Their music was stale, the only song they ever sang that meant anything (Sloop John B) was an unattributed blatant rip off of a West Indies traditional song. 

They sang about hot rods, surfing, and women...Nice and safe "rebellions".  Absolutely sterile.  They were as fucking vanilla as it gets, and catered to their audience's PARENTS, who were, after all, the ones buying the records for the little darlings.  And the parents were glad to do so, because THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Sullivan_Beach_Boys.jpg

...Wasn't dangerous.  It was SAFE.  The alternative, THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Chuck_Berry_1971.JPG/497px-Chuck_Berry_1971.JPG

...Didn't look quite so wholesome, so SAFE.

In fact, it is my argument that The Beach Boys and all the other Jan & Dean rip-offs were what directly led to the acid rock movement.  Society had narrowed it's value of "acceptable" til it became fashionable to be a reject.  Also, the Boomers had figured out that it was easier to get girls into bed with them if they were on quaaludes instead of a beach blanket.

The really SAD thing is that The Beach Boys have dragged on, zombie-like, to this very day, even after the only member of the band that could actually surf drowned.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/The_Beach_Boys%2C_May_29%2C_2012.jpg/800px-The_Beach_Boys%2C_May_29%2C_2012.jpg

Make it stop.  For the love of God, make it stop.

To be continued

Christ, they're awful.
"At first I lifted weights.  But then I asked myself, 'why not people?'  Now everyone runs for the fjord when they see me."


Horribly Oscillating Assbasket of Deliciousness
[/b]

AFK

Quote from: Waffleman on October 10, 2013, 05:02:25 PM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 09, 2013, 07:41:36 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 07:39:44 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:29:40 PM
For me, subjectively, the word authentic does have an application in this context. I consider music to be authentic if the musicians' only or primary motivation is that they enjoy making it more than anything else they could be doing instead.

So, if they are doing it because it makes money, it can't be authentic?

Can you give me an example of authenticity?


Moonsorrow

Are you fucking kidding me? I love Moonsorrow, but boy do they enjoy their moneys.
According to your definitions,they're not artists.


According to my actual definitions (as opposed to the strawman TGRR created) they are. 


For chrissakes they released an album that was two, 30-minute long songs.  Even by metal standards that is insane and not exactly lending itself to mass consumption.
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

I just want to repeat, for emphasis, that you don't just pick up an instrument/start training your voice and become proficient overnight because you decided you wanted to be famous. People who aren't into it for music don't GO into music. It's preposterous to even think that... it's like the people who go to art shows and look at complex pieces that took vision, hours of labor and decades of acquired skills to make, and dismiss them with "I could make that for cheaper".

No, you couldn't.

And that's sort of the "sour grapes" element I see with people who want to dismiss musicians they don't like as "inauthentic" and "sellouts". Even if they are sellouts, even if they've given up following their own inner vision and are writing songs they think will sell (and a good artist can make custom work and art they think will sell, that's part of being an artist) they still got into music in the first place because they were into music, and even a mediocre guitar player put thousands of hours of practice in to be able to play. Going into music is not like becoming a dentist for the money; kids may dream of fame, and bands may dream of being signed (does it make my ex-husband more "authentic", I wonder, that he left the band the night they signed, because he didn't want to tour?) but art and music are not things you spend the hours it takes to get good at if they don't call to you. That INCLUDES  bands you hate. Justin Bieber is STILL A BETTER MUSICIAN THAN YOU (and I am talking to no one in particular here), and that chaps your fucking hide, so you dismiss him as a product, a nonperson, because it makes you feel better.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Mesozoic Mister Nigel

Quote from: Waffleman on October 10, 2013, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 10, 2013, 05:00:36 PM
Part 4
The Scum Also Rises

The Beach Boys formed in 1961, to sing to people in 1951.  They WERE the 50s.  Wholesomely dressed young men singing wholesome songs, and getting insanely fucked up when nobody was looking.  Their music was stale, the only song they ever sang that meant anything (Sloop John B) was an unattributed blatant rip off of a West Indies traditional song. 

They sang about hot rods, surfing, and women...Nice and safe "rebellions".  Absolutely sterile.  They were as fucking vanilla as it gets, and catered to their audience's PARENTS, who were, after all, the ones buying the records for the little darlings.  And the parents were glad to do so, because THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Sullivan_Beach_Boys.jpg

...Wasn't dangerous.  It was SAFE.  The alternative, THIS:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Chuck_Berry_1971.JPG/497px-Chuck_Berry_1971.JPG

...Didn't look quite so wholesome, so SAFE.

In fact, it is my argument that The Beach Boys and all the other Jan & Dean rip-offs were what directly led to the acid rock movement.  Society had narrowed it's value of "acceptable" til it became fashionable to be a reject.  Also, the Boomers had figured out that it was easier to get girls into bed with them if they were on quaaludes instead of a beach blanket.

The really SAD thing is that The Beach Boys have dragged on, zombie-like, to this very day, even after the only member of the band that could actually surf drowned.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/The_Beach_Boys%2C_May_29%2C_2012.jpg/800px-The_Beach_Boys%2C_May_29%2C_2012.jpg

Make it stop.  For the love of God, make it stop.

To be continued

Christ, they're awful.

They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


The Good Reverend Roger

#147
redacted.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 10, 2013, 05:16:35 PM
They are awful. But you know what? They probably love music and love to play, and furthermore, they're probably still better at it than anyone here.

My argument isn't that they were not good vocalists and musicians (they were), but that they were culturally sterile.  They were a museum piece for the previous decade.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

AFK

Two words:  Pet Sounds


Which, incidentally, was an influence on The Beatles when they were making Sgt. Pepper.


Cynicism is a blank check for failure.