Mommy Shaming

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And why point out that birth control issues, equal rights issues, and poverty are actually things, when you can toss people under the bus by half-assedly saying it's "mommy shaming".

Because we all know that women will use a vacuum cleaner on men if that's what it takes to get the sperm out.  Men have no interest in reproduction or the sometimes-irresponsible methods by which it is achieved.  It is apparently the woman's fault.

Or so I am told.

I don't think that was Gogira's point, though I think if she chose the phrase "parent shaming" it would have been more accurate.

My bad, Roger and Twid, you're right about the gendered terms. The thread title was mommy shaming and that's what came out.

regret, you're totally right that talking about hypothetical future children is different from talking about existing kids. I think what I was trying to say (won't speak for GA) is that a lot of times when people say "why did you have so many kids?" what is heard is "those kids that exist should not be" and however accurate that might be from a statistical standpoint it's still kinda gross. I knew a mom of many kids and she got all flavors of shit she didn't deserve from people because of it, which is definitely flavoring my response to this.

It's all good yo.

I know exactly what you're saying, and I know there are often complex reasons for people to have many many children, or vice versa. My mom was 1 of 10. But, you know, Grandpa fought in the Pacific, survived the war, and was a good Catholic with a long enough marriage with a Catholic woman stretching from the early 1950s until his death in 1979.

My dad is an only child from rural Ireland who only became an only child because Grandma got polio and ended up paralyzed from the waist down. They were also good Catholics. Good Catholics who for completely unforseen reasons were not fruitful and ended up dividing by half.

Oh, ouch.  Rough.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And why point out that birth control issues, equal rights issues, and poverty are actually things, when you can toss people under the bus by half-assedly saying it's "mommy shaming".

Because we all know that women will use a vacuum cleaner on men if that's what it takes to get the sperm out.  Men have no interest in reproduction or the sometimes-irresponsible methods by which it is achieved.  It is apparently the woman's fault.

Or so I am told.

I don't think that was Gogira's point, though I think if she chose the phrase "parent shaming" it would have been more accurate.

My bad, Roger and Twid, you're right about the gendered terms. The thread title was mommy shaming and that's what came out.

regret, you're totally right that talking about hypothetical future children is different from talking about existing kids. I think what I was trying to say (won't speak for GA) is that a lot of times when people say "why did you have so many kids?" what is heard is "those kids that exist should not be" and however accurate that might be from a statistical standpoint it's still kinda gross. I knew a mom of many kids and she got all flavors of shit she didn't deserve from people because of it, which is definitely flavoring my response to this.

It's all good yo.

I know exactly what you're saying, and I know there are often complex reasons for people to have many many children, or vice versa. My mom was 1 of 10. But, you know, Grandpa fought in the Pacific, survived the war, and was a good Catholic with a long enough marriage with a Catholic woman stretching from the early 1950s until his death in 1979.

My dad is an only child from rural Ireland who only became an only child because Grandma got polio and ended up paralyzed from the waist down. They were also good Catholics. Good Catholics who for completely unforseen reasons were not fruitful and ended up dividing by half.

Oh, ouch.  Rough.

Yep. Only son of an only son.

Twidgramps and Twidgrams remained a loving couple the entire time. And we all pretty much told Gramps to shut up when he said that he was a subpar husband.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Yep. Only son of an only son.

Twidgramps and Twidgrams remained a loving couple the entire time. And we all pretty much told Gramps to shut up when he said that he was a subpar husband.

Plenty of assholes would have headed for the hills.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Yep. Only son of an only son.

Twidgramps and Twidgrams remained a loving couple the entire time. And we all pretty much told Gramps to shut up when he said that he was a subpar husband.

Plenty of assholes would have headed for the hills.

I made that point. If there's a good spot in the hypothetical afterlife, they both have more than earned it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

To be fair, though, they did argue a lot. They were an elderly Irish couple and Grandpa is easy to anger. I get that from him, actually. I'm a bit hot tempered myself. My shyness just balances it out.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

To be fair, though, they did argue a lot. They were an elderly Irish couple and Grandpa is easy to anger. I get that from him, actually. I'm a bit hot tempered myself. My shyness just balances it out.

Well, you know...the Irish ignore anything they can't drink or punch.   

[Golden Applesauce]

Wow, I really didn't expect that to be controversial. Have none of you ever seen people making snide remarks in grocery stores about people who have more children than they can control? If that's the kind of shit you say, then yes, sooner or later a child of a large family will overhear you. Maybe not directly, maybe it's just your kid going up to their kid on the playground and saying "My mom said that your mom has more kids than brains." While we're grossly exaggerating what people actually said, saying it's okay to think of human beings as wastes of space as long as we don't tell them to their face is like saying "Being racist is fine, as long as you're tactful about it. What they won't know won't hurt them."

It all comes back to the old game of controlling reproductive rights. If you're saying that only wealthy people whose philosophies you agree with should have more than N kids, then you're saying that those other people - the ones with the wrong values and inferior lifestyles - shouldn't. If God wanted them to breed, he'd have given them a four bedroom house and your enlightened opinions on everything, right?

QG is right, it is judgey concern trolling. If you want to go shit on overweight people because it's socially acceptable to do so, go ahead, but don't try to kid yourself that you're being a crusader for social justice by redirecting food from people that overeat to people that are starving.

If you were actually seriously concerned that someone had more children than they could provide for - you'd offer to help provide for the children. If your concern only extends to mocking the parents, that's not concern, that's being judgmental.

Frankly, it makes more sense to mock people for promoting the paradigm of "children are entirely at the mercy of they're biogenitors' ability to provide for them" in the first place. Why don't we offer universal childcare, give parents both maternity and paternity leave, and extend school breakfast to school dinner?

The next time you feel the need to tell someone off for having so many kids...

I feel like this attack is aimed at me ... I never feel the need to tell someone off for having many kids.

-2 points for reading comprehension.

Furthermore, why would anyone talk to a child about the parent's parenting skills? I cannot see a possible reason for that. Even when your intent is to hurt the child that is not a very good technique. Not even psychotics would do that.

Man we go to different grocery stores. Of the top of my head, evangelicals tend to gravitate towards this sort script:
"Is that a lip piercing? You're going to hell. Stop trying to be punky rebel and go to church like your parents."
"My parents said it was okay."
"Your parents are AGENTS OF SATAN."

Furthermore, why would anyone talk to a child about the parent's parenting skills? I cannot see a possible reason for that. Even when your intent is to hurt the child that is not a very good technique. Not even psychotics would do that.

Hey, he's been waiting WEEKS to spring that line, most likely.

Can we analyze this comment? There's no knowledge transfer - all you've got is vaguely derisive speculation. It's pure phatic communication. Not that there's anything wrong with that, phatic communication is really important in building relationships and communities. It's just that with this post, I get the feeling that you're trying to build relationships at my expense. Like trying to build an in-group out-group paradigm.

[Pæs]

I didn't read GA's post as a "here's a chance to get a kick in" it read more to me like "this 'why do you have so many children' trope is a hot button of mine and I'm hesitant to bring it up because fuck holist" followed by "okay, actually, I can't not mention this, here are my feels."

[Nephew Twiddleton]

To be fair, though, they did argue a lot. They were an elderly Irish couple and Grandpa is easy to anger. I get that from him, actually. I'm a bit hot tempered myself. My shyness just balances it out.

Well, you know...the Irish ignore anything they can't drink or punch.   

Oh god, Grandpa never punched Grandma.

Nightmare fodder.

Truth be told, my favorite Grandma/Grandpa story did involve him being drunk and merry, and her being annoyed with him. I'll start up a new thread if you care to hear it.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Wow, I really didn't expect that to be controversial.

Well, it was a bullshit argument.

It's like saying "If you oppose capital punishment, I want you to imagine laughing in Sharon Tate's surviving relatives' faces"

How did you not expect it to be controversial?

Have none of you ever seen people making snide remarks in grocery stores about people who have more children than they can control?

False equivalence.  That's more akin to the jerk on the plane telling a lady to shut her infant up, while the cabin pressure changes.

If that's the kind of shit you say, then yes, sooner or later a child of a large family will overhear you. Maybe not directly, maybe it's just your kid going up to their kid on the playground and saying "My mom said that your mom has more kids than brains." While we're grossly exaggerating what people actually said, saying it's okay to think of human beings as wastes of space as long as we don't tell them to their face is like saying "Being racist is fine, as long as you're tactful about it. What they won't know won't hurt them."

Woooooow.     That's AWESOME.  Why not go all the way and say "If you are concerned about the number of the people on the planet, that's the same as chucking Jews in the gas chambers"?  I mean, why half-ass this sort of thing?

It all comes back to the old game of controlling reproductive rights. If you're saying that only wealthy people whose philosophies you agree with should have more than N kids, then you're saying that those other people - the ones with the wrong values and inferior lifestyles - shouldn't. If God wanted them to breed, he'd have given them a four bedroom house and your enlightened opinions on everything, right?

No, it all comes back to you having to get a shot in, even if it means supporting Holist's misogynist ass.

Well done, that man.

QG is right, it is judgey concern trolling. If you want to go shit on overweight people because it's socially acceptable to do so, go ahead, but don't try to kid yourself that you're being a crusader for social justice by redirecting food from people that overeat to people that are starving.

I am so glad you are here to defend holist by judgey concern trolling our judgey concern trolling.

If you were actually seriously concerned that someone had more children than they could provide for - you'd offer to help provide for the children. If your concern only extends to mocking the parents, that's not concern, that's being judgmental.

How many have you helped provide for?  Or are you just not concerned about the children?

Frankly, it makes more sense to mock people for promoting the paradigm of "children are entirely at the mercy of they're biogenitors' ability to provide for them" in the first place. Why don't we offer universal childcare, give parents both maternity and paternity leave, and extend school breakfast to school dinner?

1.  Grammar Nazi:  "Their".

2.  Who says we shouldn't?  Strawman arguments are the last resort of the holist-groupie.

-2 points for reading comprehension.

- 10 points for being a jerk.

Man we go to different grocery stores. Of the top of my head, evangelicals tend to gravitate towards this sort script:
"Is that a lip piercing? You're going to hell. Stop trying to be punky rebel and go to church like your parents."
"My parents said it was okay."
"Your parents are AGENTS OF SATAN."

Not sure what that has to do with shit.

Can we analyze this comment? There's no knowledge transfer - all you've got is vaguely derisive speculation. It's pure phatic communication. Not that there's anything wrong with that, phatic communication is really important in building relationships and communities. It's just that with this post, I get the feeling that you're trying to build relationships at my expense. Like trying to build an in-group out-group paradigm.

Mind control lasers.  I has them.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I didn't read GA's post as a "here's a chance to get a kick in"

I did. It's what he does.

ETA:  Examples on request.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, the holist-groupie/defending holist points were put in because, you know, if he can smear everyone in shit in an effort to demonstrate his ideological purity, I can too.



ETA:  because whereas Nigel and QG brought up the very real problems facing parents with multiple children, and how that occurred in some cases, GA is here to white knight and show us all how much more pure he is than we savages.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

To be fair, though, they did argue a lot. They were an elderly Irish couple and Grandpa is easy to anger. I get that from him, actually. I'm a bit hot tempered myself. My shyness just balances it out.

Well, you know...the Irish ignore anything they can't drink or punch.   

Oh god, Grandpa never punched Grandma.

Nightmare fodder.

Truth be told, my favorite Grandma/Grandpa story did involve him being drunk and merry, and her being annoyed with him. I'll start up a new thread if you care to hear it.

Aw, sorry Twid.  I wouldn't expect he did.  I just can't resist a rip on non-Cornish people. 

(We ignore everything we can't drink or stick a pick axe through.)

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Wow, I really didn't expect that to be controversial. Have none of you ever seen people making snide remarks in grocery stores about people who have more children than they can control?

No, actually. Not once.

While we're grossly exaggerating what people actually said, saying it's okay to think of human beings as wastes of space as long as we don't tell them to their face is like saying "Being racist is fine, as long as you're tactful about it. What they won't know won't hurt them."

Except the part where race has nothing to do with overpopulation and resource consumption. And I've never said that human beings are wastes of space. If I felt that way I would be in favor of warfare. I am a pacifist. A rather adamant one at that.

It all comes back to the old game of controlling reproductive rights.

No, it doesn't. I'm not disputing your right to have as many children as you want, I just question the wisdom of it after a certain point. Especially if someone else's kids elsewhere are being deprived as a result.

If you're saying that only wealthy people whose philosophies you agree with should have more than N kids

Actually, I'm not. I'm a socialist. I would prefer that wealthy people not have kids at all. I'm just saying that if they, for some  reason choose to, they can provide for all of those children and give them all a fair chance. Who has a better chance of thriving? All ten kids of a billionnaire or one of ten from a middle class couple?

then you're saying that those other people - the ones with the wrong values and inferior lifestyles - shouldn't. If God wanted them to breed, he'd have given them a four bedroom house and your enlightened opinions on everything, right?

Strawman.

QG is right, it is judgey concern trolling.

I'm not trolling. Judgy perhaps, but not trolling. And certainly concerned. I'm more concerned with the survival of my species than the survival of my name.

If you want to go shit on overweight people because it's socially acceptable to do so, go ahead, but don't try to kid yourself that you're being a crusader for social justice by redirecting food from people that overeat to people that are starving.

My girlfriend is obese. She also is incapable of eating most foods or a significant amount of calories. So, um, in your own words, go fuck yourself.

If you were actually seriously concerned that someone had more children than they could provide for - you'd offer to help provide for the children. If your concern only extends to mocking the parents, that's not concern, that's being judgmental.

Here's the thing dude. I expressed shock over the amount of baby batter that Holist has been slinging around. I asked for clarification and expressed my concerns. He has not clarified and has instead decided to call me stupid without answering my question.

Frankly, it makes more sense to mock people for promoting the paradigm of "children are entirely at the mercy of they're biogenitors' ability to provide for them" in the first place. Why don't we offer universal childcare, give parents both maternity and paternity leave, and extend school breakfast to school dinner?

Why don't we? Excellent question.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

To be fair, though, they did argue a lot. They were an elderly Irish couple and Grandpa is easy to anger. I get that from him, actually. I'm a bit hot tempered myself. My shyness just balances it out.

Well, you know...the Irish ignore anything they can't drink or punch.   

Oh god, Grandpa never punched Grandma.

Nightmare fodder.

Truth be told, my favorite Grandma/Grandpa story did involve him being drunk and merry, and her being annoyed with him. I'll start up a new thread if you care to hear it.

Aw, sorry Twid.  I wouldn't expect he did.  I just can't resist a rip on non-Cornish people. 

(We ignore everything we can't drink or stick a pick axe through.)

I was making a joke too.

Of course they got their monkey on.

I'm here, aren't I?