Apprentice fucking rant.

[Hoshiko]

Then why don't you(general you of course) knock it the fuck off? What's the gain in bringing everyone else down with you? What's the gain in playing the game?

I doin't fucking know, man. Ask the white trash that think they're somehow better than the black man.  I guess as long as you think there's someone worse off than you it's alright.  It's cold comfort, but sometimesa thats's all you fucking get.

And that's the point, or at least it seems that way to me. If you view the whole fucked up human syndrome and say "wow, look what sexism/racism/politics/hair color has cost us all!" then you lose the focus that you had on the problem to begin with.

Agent, in the case of your rant it seemed like you were using sexism as a scapegoat for a deeper dissatisfaction, a much larger problem. Broad was an understatement. Until you really examine the source of that unease and realize that it's not the opposite sex, you'll never stop chasing your tail. What you call "the game" is deep, it's a mystery, and I guarantee it's not rooted in sex, but rather in the human condition as a whole. Hell, we could be androgenous and identical and we would still beat each other down. We really would. Differences just make it easier to have something to pin it on.

I also don't believe it comes from being in a low place yourself, either. Rich people who are well-off in almost every way still sometimes take perverse pleasure in lowering others, or attacking those who stand in higher positions on the food chain. Take Donald Trump, for instance.

Rather, maybe it's from a lack of contentment in your life, a search for something meaningful gone wrong and turned destructive. Just to be clear, a part of me even feels that it's not a problem, just business as usual. People are made to fight, we suffer for a reason, and we either become stronger through the suffering or we collapse under it. To some degree you pick how you choose to persue your life, a little each day, and you just go for it. Some people choose to conform past the point of being free to make their own decisions, and some people conform and fight a private internal battle. Others examine the why instead of the what, and try to learn from it and help others learn also. That's called personal responsibility and a broader outlook. I would consider most of the people on this board in that category. We all play our roles, although we're much more free now to choose those roles, rather than have them thrust on us.

I dunno, I've lived on this planet for a couple of decades and people freak the hell out of me, but I've gotten kind of attached to them. Even the assholes.  

Edited to add a line.

[chaosgraves:agentoferis]

most things happen by consent.

Who am I to judge?!?!?

[Horab Fibslager]

Horab, those women at your work? They're just lazy people, and if they weren't using you "because you're a man" they would be using you to help them figure things out because you're the "smart one", or they would be using you to take up their slack because you always have "so much energy." Leeches are leeches, regardless of the sex. I've had men co-workers who were too lazy mentally to read basic manuals and depended on asking me questions all of the time, but it wasn't because I was a "smart chick" like they said. It was because they were lazy pieces of shit.

i hear ya babe. whenever a good woman puts forth she probaly gets an small extra push so to say forward just cuz of the rest. i try not to discriminate but none the les, i admit i'm a am an iwth discriminating tastes, as varying as tey may be. and you veryu much ht he headon the nail on the point in general.

but at the same timei rekon we're all alzy in our way, so i try to keep that in accont i reckon as a self proclaimed masculinist, it's my duty to take up the so called un winable fight.

becase as the old asying goes, women always win.

[agent compassion]

Hoshiko,

It's a little of everything, I think. But the motivation for it was from watching that POS show and seeing the whole ritual played out and thinking "aren't we over this shit yet?" I mean, I know it was just a show, but I also know that there are still a LOT of bosses who play that kind of sexist shit on their employees, hell, I left a very good paying job because I had a boss like that who drove me and several other female employees crazy! It got to the point where we couldn't even DO that work because he was interfering continuously and then it's like, well, what's the point, I came here to work and I can't work so, whatever.

...and then there's the whole notion that you have to "react" to the other, you're not able to be the initiator. And the female contestant was getting crapped on for not initiating more - but when she DID initiate, she got crapped on again for being too strong. And I'm just sick of the fact that that old Catch-22 is still in use all over the place. We know better, I think, and many people DO better, but it's still there, and it pisses me off, because it's a completely immature and irresponsible way to be. And I've had it UP TO HERE with people who refuse to grow up and act like decent human beings. In that regard, I am being EXTREMELY broad.

I'm definitely split down the middle, on the one hand, I study peace systems and conflict resolution and try to think that all people have some good in them and deserve to be respected and allowed to live. And then I see some schmuck wallowing in his own filth and being rewarded for it and think "fuck them all - they deserve each other." I mean, what the HELL!

And I know part of why I was drawn to Discordianism is that it doesn't sugar coat the dual natures of things, people are never gonna be 100% good or 100% evil and we're never gonna be completely dissolved into war OR united into peace, and people are still gonna get rewarded for being jerkoffs and kicked around for being nice.

[Horab Fibslager]

catch 22 does not discriminate.

[agent compassion]

catch 22 does not discriminate.

When you use it on someone else, it does....

[Hoshiko]

When it interferes with your professional life then it's a problem that needs to be dealt with quickly and officially, but I do understand about sexist bosses who try to sabotage your entire career, not just your job (although that's bad enough.) Think of the progress made in this area: 20 years ago, do you think that a woman in this sitaution would have had any reasonable recourse? Do you think that a woman in this situation would have options today? The same as if the harrasser had been a woman, not a man?

I like to think that there's a private hell reserved for those types of bosses; it's called retirement, where they have to live with themselves, no distractions. Consider yourself lucky from not having to deal with their bullshit anymore!

I've seen female bosses do the same thing to other women, though, so I still have to maintain that it's not just a sexist issue.

And the thing about The Apprentice is that they work within a model and a group of people that is designed to create conflict. That's what makes the drama. You might be mad on that woman's behalf, but 1) I would bet money that most of the "conflicts" in the show are set up or edited to high hell, and 2) She will get more money and contacts from doing it than you or I probably ever will. Small price to pay for selling your soul to a man with a godawful toupee.

If you want to be mad, be mad at the Survivor producers who made starving contestants strip for oreos and peanut butter.  I can just hear all of the guys reading the thread collectively letting out a primal cry and yelling "Don't take away the reality stripping! It's all we've got! And then remember that they were idiots to begin with, and take a deep, cleansing breathe.

[Zurtok Khan]

I discriminate against myself.

[Horab Fibslager]

i think as a boss you have to be to a certain extent sexist, at elast in my line of work. you can;t expect women to do the "man's" jobs as it were. it's a bloody shame, but when a woman does step up and tak e it, she';s pretty much guaranteed that job as long as she does it well, alogn the lines of any man.

to me if you cabn;t do a job, man or woman, you'r as useless as well, *ahem* tits on a  bull* aehem* :P



we've been short on staff lately and hwen trying to decide onwho to call in, certain people both male and female i';ve been tellign htem" might as well go without a person at all.

course we don;t get the highest uh whatever at wendy's :P  

[Hoshiko]

Is there some special physical reason they can't do a "man's job"? No? Then I would tell them to suck it up and be fair. If they were hired to do something then they shouldn't object to doing it, ne? I LOVED my last job because everyone was expected to be helpful to the best of their abilities, and if they weren't, they were gone. None of the politics and petty dramas that most jobs have, just a team of people who worked shockingly well together, and a fun as hell management team. Man I miss it

But I would so work at wendy's and do all of the "man's work" if it guaranteed me free fries. You think I'm kidding...

Fries and a Frosty, how I miss thee!

[Horab Fibslager]

i'd really like to do that, but we;re really not allowed to say suck it up. i reckon it;s apr thing. my boss who alot fo folks asy i'm alot like (which isnt a bad thing mad eit fro mmy postion to the next level in 6months) said suck it up alot, until he go ta lot of flack for it.

personaly i try to work with people's strength and avoid theirweaknesses as much as possible, tho working on those as well.

but in my current job it's a thing where most of teh mgt ph34rs to tread. as the jr shift supervisor, and before as crew trainer and regular creew, i've already been told it's not a thing that; sdone, so unless i know a girl is willign an dable i don;t recomend her for a man job.

it sucks, i don;t like it, but my women bosses are the ones whom i've gotten this from.


generaly tho i try to treat everyone, crew, my level mgt, abvoe mve(middle mgt) and uppr mgt as equals, we all ahve our jobs to do, and communication is an integral aprt of at least in particualr my job i try to just do my job and make sure i'm communicating what's expected of the crew below me or whatever. it's tough. i don;t much like it in alot of ways.

[Hoshiko]

And I feel kind of bad for the women who won't do hard work. My other last job was as a wood refinisher, and that involved lots of lifting, welder's gloves, gas mask, awful chemicals and mishaps, power tools... I loved it, who wouldn't?  :P

And I've had it UP TO HERE with people who refuse to grow up and act like decent human beings. In that regard, I am being EXTREMELY broad.

Amen.

[Hoshiko]

i'd really like to do that, but we;re really not allowed to say suck it up. i reckon it;s apr thing. my boss who alot fo folks asy i'm alot like (which isnt a bad thing mad eit fro mmy postion to the next level in 6months) said suck it up alot, until he go ta lot of flack for it.

personaly i try to work with people's strength and avoid theirweaknesses as much as possible, tho working on those as well.

but in my current job it's a thing where most of teh mgt ph34rs to tread. as the jr shift supervisor, and before as crew trainer and regular creew, i've already been told it's not a thing that; sdone, so unless i know a girl is willign an dable i don;t recomend her for a man job.

it sucks, i don;t like it, but my women bosses are the ones whom i've gotten this from.


generaly tho i try to treat everyone, crew, my level mgt, abvoe mve(middle mgt) and uppr mgt as equals, we all ahve our jobs to do, and communication is an integral aprt of at least in particualr my job i try to just do my job and make sure i'm communicating what's expected of the crew below me or whatever. it's tough. i don;t much like it in alot of ways.

Well, I don't mean that you should say exactly that... a little tact would be nice, but it is just basic lifting and ladder stuff we're talking about here, right? Why would they not be able to do that? Like I said, if they have a physical reason then that's one thing, but it shouldn't be categorized as a "man's job" if it's something that women can easily do, and I don't see why it would be based on sex. I don't even see how that would come up in the first place unless, like I said, there's some kind of physical limitation involved.

Because I'll use power tools, but no way am I moving a heavy couch! I have enough bad couch karma as it is...

[Horab Fibslager]

yeah i hear that.

it really pisses me off as a manager that i feel liek a baby sitter.

everyday i walk in say hello, ask hwo ppl are and encourage them to get theri work on. some ppl apppreciate that. those are my best ppl.

[agent compassion]

but it is just basic lifting and ladder stuff we're talking about here, right? Why would they not be able to do that? Like I said, if they have a physical reason then that's one thing, but it shouldn't be categorized as a "man's job" if it's something that women can easily do, and I don't see why it would be based on sex.

Well, then, the only job I can think of where a man could do it but a woman couldn't, would be a sperm donor.  

Honestly, I have no patience for the women who MAKE themselves weak either. The ones who won't break a sweat or muss their hair because it might interfere with their makeup. There's more beauty in a woman who's red-faced with exertion, sleeves rolled up as she does work she enjoys, than a perfectly primped diva who whines when she has to lift anything heavier than a cracker.

[Says the woman who took auto shop in school and loved it]