Creeper shots and body shaming.

[Pæs]

Is that so bad? Rehabilitation is generally more effective than punishment.
Prevention and solutions are better than revenge.

Yes, it is. While I agree with your latter points, and do not advocate revenge, especially from within government, abdicating personal responsibility solves nothing and enables abbhorent behavior.

Solutions is tricky word in this context.

No Alty, solutions is how we fix the problem.

[Salty]

At this point we are veering far from the point of the thread, but that's OK.

It is all government can do to mitigate the mob mentaliy that is present in any given community trying to protect itself.

Let's take this to its logical conlucion: rapists should not be made to feel bad about their acts because they are a product of their society.

No, just no. If it were not for government most rapaists and child molsester, or those PERCEIVED as such, would be strung up the nearest tree. This is very much a part of human nature, to protect the group from those who would harm it.

If we are talking about shame, it must be known that such behavior is not only unacceptable, it is intrinsically, morally wrong. Period. There is no mitigating factor for rape. Not society, not a terrible childhood, not mental illness. It is just wrong. And if you tell people otherwise they will excuse their behavior and carry on doing it.

Naming and shaming of genocide, for example, is more effective than, well, saying it's not a countries fault they needed to clense ethnicities.

[Salty]

In naming and shaming acts which are harmful to innocent people, the prevalence of those acts are reduced.

Much in the same way the presense of police acts to impede crime before it happens. I may not LIKE police officers, I may detest the growing police state here in the US, but without police we would all be left to fend for outselves from whomever wanted whatever it is we have.

[Pæs]

Having trouble believing that reducing the argument to "strictly heterosexual men making women feel uncomfortable because they want to sleep with them" is anything but a deliberate misreading, given the direction responses have taken.

[Salty]

Is that so bad? Rehabilitation is generally more effective than punishment.
Prevention and solutions are better than revenge.

Yes, it is. While I agree with your latter points, and do not advocate revenge, especially from within government, abdicating personal responsibility solves nothing and enables abbhorent behavior.

Solutions is tricky word in this context.

No Alty, solutions is how we fix the problem.

Must...adehere...to...50...post...ruuuuuuleuuuuhhhh.
*uncontrollable shaking*

[Salty]

Having trouble believing that reducing the argument to "strictly heterosexual men making women feel uncomfortable because they want to sleep with them" is anything but a deliberate misreading, given the direction responses have taken.

If that's the case...fair play. Much more skillful than, say, brother nobbhil.

[Pæs]

It's making the discussion about sex, which is misdirection. Still, yes, more subtle than BN.

[monad]

"the issue is that [...] they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need"

Yes. They're not being told what they need to know. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is useful in individual situations, but outside of the interaction between the creeper and the creeped upon, some other education is needed. I don't think we're disagreeing on this, we're just suffering from some miscommunication.

Right. We'll tell them that these behaviours are bad, but that it's not their fault and that they're a poor product of society, then we'll hope that they don't use that as a way out of the hard job of self-evaluation and betterment.

Yes, if you're trying to give them an education on the nature of responsibility. Which we're not. "You must not do this, it is bad. Here is why:" is the education.

Right, so while we're delicately reeducating the abusers, we should advise victims to be really careful not to hurt any feelings by implying that creepers accept personal responsibility for their actions.

That appears to be the total opposite of what I was suggesting.

I am strictly speaking about the case where Person A who identifies as a female is creeped out by Person B who identifies as a male, which covers the majority of the interactions we're discussing and is, in my opinion, best illustrative of the issue for this audience.

Then we have been speaking at cross-purposes.

But sure, feel free to continue running headfirst into "devils advocate" tropes and dishing out red herrings like accusations of cisnormativity.

I accused you of no such thing.

Are you unaware of how well torn-apart "BUT IT HAPPENS TO MENS TOO" is as a rebuttal?

Even if I was unaware, it seems irrelevant as that is not what I said.

I feel that in another conversation or situation I would be quite happily arguing the point of view you are now. I don't feel particularly comfortable defending "men" like this.

Let's take this to its logical conlucion: rapists should not be made to feel bad about their acts because they are a product of their society.

You don't think that making them aware of the harm they've done would not be a by-product or even the goal of education?

[Salty]

Compassion is a wonderful thing, vilainizing abusers is not so wonderful. I think we can all agree to that.

[Salty]

RE: OP:

Look, just LOOK at this BULLSHIT:
http://www.m.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20140220/average-obese-woman-gets-just-1-hour-of-exercise-a-year-study

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Why does it matter what reason a person gives for saying no to something?

[monad]

"Is there poison in this cake?"

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

"Is there poison in this cake?"

I am talking about when someone sets a personal boundary, as in declining an invitation or declining to touch or be touched, declining a job, declining a date, declining a kiss, declining sex.

When someone says no to anything involving what they do with their person, at what point is it appropriate for the person being declined to second-guess them?

[monad]

When they have pre-established that "no" is not the safe-word.

[Salty]

When they have pre-established that "no" is not the safe-word.