Creeper shots and body shaming.

[Pæs]

but you can hardly fault the person being creeped on for being more concerned about their safety than taking the opportunity to educate and better their harasser.

I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Yeah, I'll just keep spelling that out in case there's any confusion because I'm very aware of how easily a victim blaming mentality can sneak in. Please don't take it as an accusation.

[Pæs]

Also, because "you're not presenting an argument for why I should respect you as a human being in a way which is comfortable for me" is the battle cry of the mens' rights activist and needs to be preemptively rejected, IMO.

[monad]

To some degree both these hypothetical people are victims, blaming either is a victim blaming mentality. There are also creepy women, perhaps it would be best not to lose sight of that. Fewer, perhaps, but it is a human problem, not entirely* one of gender.

*Not to deny that it is often heavily skewed.

[Pæs]

I'm happy holding the creeper responsible for their own actions, actually.

Being a victim of societal conditioning is so broad a definition of "victim" as to make the word useless and synonymous with "person". The victim of harassment is who I'm talking about, here. And while it may be an interesting semantic/philisophical excercise to consider whether aggressors are all victims in their own way, and is certainly useful not to simply characterise them as monsters, we're talking about the lived daily experience of thousands (Edit: drastic understatement) of people, mainly women, whose lives I don't see the utility of reducing to the background of a discussion about whether we can hold people responsible for the damages they do to others. Especially when tropes such as gender comparison in offending are starting to be trotted out.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Alty: I apologise, I didn't mean to derail. Socially unacceptable clothing seems related to socially unacceptable anything else. In both situations it's a question of what is socially acceptable.

Pæs: I agree entirely with what you're saying, but the issue is that (sometimes) they are not being told their behaviour is unacceptable, they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need. That would only lead them to approach someone else in the same way.
I certainly do not mean to argue that their behaviour is acceptable or should be allowed to continue. I am no longer sure what my point is other than I feel they deserve some sympathy too. And an education in social adaptability would be helpful.

You would be amazed at the proportion of men who fly off the handle and become abusive/threatening when they are directly told no. That's a major contributor to why women and girls often won't tell a man directly that they're not interested. Online in particular, the majority of men I have politely turned down have immediately lashed out with verbal abuse, some even threatening to hunt me down and rape me. That's why I ignore online overtures from men I'm not interested in.

In person, turning men down flat can be dangerous. It's unfortunate, because IDEALLY women should feel safe being honest and saying "I'm not interested in you". But we don't.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm happy holding the creeper responsible for their own actions, actually.

Being a victim of societal conditioning is so broad a definition of "victim" as to make the word useless and synonymous with "person". The victim of harassment is who I'm talking about, here. And while it may be an interesting semantic/philisophical excercise to consider whether aggressors are all victims in their own way, and is certainly useful not to simply characterise them as monsters, we're talking about the lived daily experience of thousands of people, mainly women, whose lives I don't see the utility of reducing to the background of a discussion about whether we can hold people responsible for the damages they do to others. Especially when tropes such as gender comparison in offending are starting to be trotted out.

And this.

[monad]

I feel like I am being put on the defensive here.

I'm happy holding the creeper responsible for their own actions, actually.

Being a victim of societal conditioning is so broad a definition of "victim" as to make the word useless and synonymous with "person". The victim of harassment is who I'm talking about, here. And while it may be an interesting semantic/philisophical excercise to consider whether aggressors are all victims in their own way, and is certainly useful not to simply characterise them as monsters, we're talking about the lived daily experience of thousands (Edit: drastic understatement) of people, mainly women, whose lives I don't see the utility of reducing to the background of a discussion about whether we can hold people responsible for the damages they do to others.

This seems to address the symptom and not the disease.

Especially when tropes such as gender comparison in offending are starting to be trotted out.

Perhaps they should not have been trotted out and we should have stuck with the hypothetical creeper and creeped, rather than making it a gender issue.

In person, turning men down flat can be dangerous. It's unfortunate, because IDEALLY women should feel safe being honest and saying "I'm not interested in you". But we don't.

That is not something I had taken into account. Of course not all rejections will result in violence, but the risk posed to women who give all the benefit of the doubt outweighs the good doing so would do.  I have no issue with what you're saying. Again, education is needed, but it is not the responsibility of the creeped.

[Salty]

I feel like I am being put on the defensive here.

I felt that way for the first year I spent here, lurking.

[Pæs]

I feel like I am being put on the defensive here.

I feel like that's justified, given that you have expressed views which have been challenged and require defending.

I'm happy holding the creeper responsible for their own actions, actually.

Being a victim of societal conditioning is so broad a definition of "victim" as to make the word useless and synonymous with "person". The victim of harassment is who I'm talking about, here. And while it may be an interesting semantic/philisophical excercise to consider whether aggressors are all victims in their own way, and is certainly useful not to simply characterise them as monsters, we're talking about the lived daily experience of thousands (Edit: drastic understatement) of people, mainly women, whose lives I don't see the utility of reducing to the background of a discussion about whether we can hold people responsible for the damages they do to others.

This seems to address the symptom and not the disease.

What is the disease then and how is it addressed? Does addressing the disease require us to not hold people responsible for their actions if they are products of their environments? When are they not? What do we do in the mean time, before the decade-long process of cultural upheaval is finished? Grin and bear it?

Especially when tropes such as gender comparison in offending are starting to be trotted out.

Perhaps they should not have been trotted out and we should have stuck with the hypothetical creeper and creeped, rather than making it a gender issue.

You want to address the disease and not the symptoms but would prefer not to address the intersection between gender and creepiness?

[monad]

I feel like that's justified, given that you have expressed views which have been challenged and require defending.

I am a little confused. What views? That all people deserve sympathy and those in need should be helped?
I feel that in another conversation or situation I would be quite happily arguing the point of view you are now. I don't feel particularly comfortable defending "men" like this.

What is the disease then and how is it addressed?

Ignorance, education.

Does addressing the disease require us to not hold people responsible for their actions if they are products of their environments?

So it would seem.

When are they not?

Never.

What do we do in the mean time, before the decade-long process of cultural upheaval is finished? Grin and bear it?

Anything you like, you are also the product of your environment.

You want to address the disease and not the symptoms but would prefer not to address the intersection between gender and creepiness?

I would prefer not to address that intersection if it means pretending female-on-male, male-on-male, and female-on-female creepiness aren't issues, as well as agreeing to the binary gender system you seem to be presupposing. That would be homophobic, transphobic and ignoring all situations where the creepiness is not directly related to strictly heterosexual men making women feel uncomfortable because they want to sleep with them. I'm sure awkward cis men can cope with a little victimisation but trading the victimisation of one group for another (particularly whilst ignoring the problems of all other groups) is not a solution.

[Salty]

That seems like it abdicates all forms of personal responsibility.

[monad]

Is that so bad? Rehabilitation is generally more effective than punishment.
Prevention and solutions are better than revenge.

[Salty]

Is that so bad? Rehabilitation is generally more effective than punishment.
Prevention and solutions are better than revenge.

Yes, it is. While I agree with your latter points, and do not advocate revenge, especially from within government, abdicating personal responsibility solves nothing and enables abbhorent behavior.

Solutions is tricky word in this context.

[monad]

abdicating personal responsibility solves nothing and enables abbhorent behavior.

I cannot form an opinion on this at this time.

[Pæs]

I feel like that's justified, given that you have expressed views which have been challenged and require defending.

I am a little confused. What views? That all people deserve sympathy and those in need should be helped?

"the issue is that [...] they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need"

What is the disease then and how is it addressed?

Ignorance, education.

Right. We'll tell them that these behaviours are bad, but that it's not their fault and that they're a poor product of society, then we'll hope that they don't use that as a way out of the hard job of self-evaluation and betterment.

Does addressing the disease require us to not hold people responsible for their actions if they are products of their environments?

So it would seem.

33 posts to go.

What do we do in the mean time, before the decade-long process of cultural upheaval is finished? Grin and bear it?

Anything you like, you are also the product of your environment.

Right, so while we're delicately reeducating the abusers, we should advise victims to be really careful not to hurt any feelings by implying that creepers accept personal responsibility for their actions.

I would prefer not to address that intersection if it means pretending female-on-male, male-on-male, and female-on-female creepiness aren't issues, as well as agreeing to the binary gender system you seem to be presupposing. That would be homophobic, transphobic and ignoring all situations where the creepiness is not directly related to strictly heterosexual men making women feel uncomfortable because they want to sleep with them. I'm sure awkward cis men can cope with a little victimisation but trading the victimisation of one group for another (particularly whilst ignoring the problems of all other groups) is not a solution.

Nobody is pretending that at all, nor proposing a gender binary. I am strictly speaking about the case where Person A who identifies as a female is creeped out by Person B who identifies as a male, which covers the majority of the interactions we're discussing and is, in my opinion, best illustrative of the issue for this audience. But sure, feel free to continue running headfirst into "devils advocate" tropes and dishing out red herrings like accusations of cisnormativity.

Are you unaware of how well torn-apart "BUT IT HAPPENS TO MENS TOO" is as a rebuttal?