Creeper shots and body shaming.

[monad]

Nigel: I confess I didn't read the creepy PMs, I was speaking on second-hand information that it was similar to the other one.

Alty: Of course sexual assault or other misconduct is unacceptable, but in some of those cases it's simply that the creeped did not make it clear to the other that their interest was unwanted. At least two of them end at the point where they simply told the other they were not interested. Many similar complaints are made about people suffering from autism or other disorders that make them struggle with or incapable of easily learning the acceptable boundaries. There's no malice there, and they deserve sympathy, not persecution.

[Pæs]

I'd rather not reddit from work. Can you quote examples where the responsibility should have been with the 'creeped' to more clearly communicate their lack of interest?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There's a pretty large overlap between guys who seem harmlessly creepy due to social ineptitude and those whose social ineptitude causes them not to recognise or adequately respect the boundaries of others.

I was just thinking something along those lines. I've had more than a couple of bad dating experiences where the guys behave absolutely horrifyingly due to bad boundary recognition and poor social skills, but even after I told them what was inappropriate about their behavior and why, they still couldn't seem to understand where they'd gone wrong.

[monad]

I apologise; I don't think I'm stating my position very well. It's not a question of responsibility. Someone who is being made to feel uncomfortable is not to blame for it, moreso if they feel they're at risk. Both parties are victims of misunderstanding and deserving of some varying degree of sympathy.

I'm a regular reader of 'Let's Not Meet'. I actually had this experience just a few days ago, so this is still fresh in my mind.

In my school, we had this fundraiser in which we just answer a few of these test question things and you're matched with 10 random people in the school on Valentine's week. So my friends and I took it. It wasn't really that much of a big deal at that time; we thought it was funny.

My first match was this guy, Vajiggle. Even now, I don't know much about Vajiggle, only that he's in my Arabic classes. I kind of laugh at the results and just throw them away.

During my Arabic class, Vajiggle starts to walk to me. He says, "You're Jaggle, righ?" By now, I had no idea what to say. I was obvious Jaggle, so I just curled my lips and said, "Yeah." And then he asked, "Do you like me?" My heart dropped. I had no idea if he was joking. But luckily, the teacher called him back to his seat.

Throughout the Valentine's week and last week, Vajiggle literally appears out of no where. He 'accidentally' ran into like five times on one day. I started to get real weird notes in my locker, like "Will you go out with me" or "Behind the school, 2:00?" or other boyish things like that. I tried to ignore them, but they kept coming. I noticed Vajiggle kind of trailing in back of me, and trying to look nonchalant, so I just try ignore him.

To make the story short, I told the administrators, and within a few days, Vajiggle stopped following me. Well, that's it. Sorry if it isn't like other people's experiences xp

tldr: We took a random matchmaking quiz for Valentines Weekend. I get top match with some weirdo, who proceeds to stalk me around campus. I finally tell the administrators of my school, and he suddenly leaves me alone.

Vajiggle should have taken the hints, but that can be difficult for many people through no fault of their own.

[Pæs]

Alty, shout out if you think this conversation fits better in a different thread.

in some of those cases it's simply that the creeped did not make it clear to the other that their interest was unwanted

I think this is an important point to come back to, even though you've gone on to say that you don't think it's a question of responsibility.

Because of the way our culture functions with regard to consent, especially if the power dynamic is unbalanced by gender, I feel an obligation to be aware that silence and anything like it cannot be interpreted as consent, not just wrt sex but in all social interaction. I think that guys talking to girls need to be aware that if they're feeling threatened (whether you think it's justified or not) straight up telling you "not interested" is not a viable survival strategy, which is part of the reason why "sorry, I have a boyfriend" is such a popular way to escape such interactions.

People who come off as creepy or threatening have to learn this. It's something they're doing wrong and it may be uncomfortable to face but it's a behaviour that I can't forgive with a simple "oh, he's just a bit socially awkward". That ignorance or inability has the potential to cause harm, so if you're aware that you have trouble in these situations, you've got to approach them with that in mind. If you're not aware, it may offend you to find out, but tough shit because that's preferable to your carrying on causing discomfort, best case scenario.

If our communities don't give this feedback to those who are behaving in dangerously abnormal ways, the bad signal they're running on is only going to multiply upon itself and running on that signal for too long creates all sorts of unhealthy relationships between these individuals and their communities.

[Salty]

Oh no, I never do mind unless it's drama.

[monad]

Alty: I apologise, I didn't mean to derail. Socially unacceptable clothing seems related to socially unacceptable anything else. In both situations it's a question of what is socially acceptable.

Pæs: I agree entirely with what you're saying, but the issue is that (sometimes) they are not being told their behaviour is unacceptable, they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need. That would only lead them to approach someone else in the same way.
I certainly do not mean to argue that their behaviour is acceptable or should be allowed to continue. I am no longer sure what my point is other than I feel they deserve some sympathy too. And an education in social adaptability would be helpful.

[Salty]

Alty: I apologise, I didn't mean to derail. Socially unacceptable clothing seems related to socially unacceptable anything else. In both situations it's a question of what is socially acceptable.

Pæs: I agree entirely with what you're saying, but the issue is that (sometimes) they are not being told their behaviour is unacceptable, they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need. That would only lead them to approach someone else in the same way.
I certainly do not mean to argue that their behaviour is acceptable or should be allowed to continue. I am no longer sure what my point is other than I feel they deserve some sympathy too. And an education in social adaptability would be helpful.

Not a worry.

I would agree, we often engage in behavior that just isn't right in order to get what we want. And without proper feedback it is difficult to readjust. This problem is that of any society without strong communities. I encounter this with people who try to apply for rental space from me.

I do not have the time to explain that your resume should not be four pages long, in papyrus, listing every job you ever had except anything massage related, repeating the same phrases over and over. Though, if we all told people things like that straight away, we might not have some of these issue.

As a formerly socially inept person, I have some sympathy. But it's easy to see why most women don't want to have to explain to someone their behavior is unacceptable or unwanted, or, not that they don't want to, but when you can clearly see how it's not OK or wanted the immediate assumption is something is really wrong with that person.

I suppose that falls back the way we gawk at people who are vastly different from the norm, without first thinking of the larger perspective of variety that is within any group of people.

[Pæs]

Pæs: I agree entirely with what you're saying, but the issue is that (sometimes) they are not being told their behaviour is unacceptable, they're being told misleading and confusing things by people avoiding the topic because it's easier. "Oh I have a boyfriend" is not the feedback they need. That would only lead them to approach someone else in the same way.

No, it's not the feedback they need, but you can hardly fault the person being creeped on for being more concerned about their safety than taking the opportunity to educate and better their harasser. IMO it's about everyone being visibly disapproving of that. It's the community's responsibility to enforce its own standard of acceptability, which for me means refusing to give mixed messages about whether their behaviour might be explainable because for so many, that's enough to justify continuing the cycle.

Sure, I understand why they are creeps. And yes, it's a shame that so many factors out of their control contributed to that but unless the buck stops with the individual, it's too easy to use the understanding of the cause to excuse not resolving the effect.

[Pæs]

So tying back into this thread, it is fucked up that we will loudly and obnoxiously enforce our standard of acceptability when we're criticising someone's appearance but seem to so utterly fail to police ourselves when in comes to behavioural problems and abuses.

[Salty]

So tying back into this thread, it is fucked up that we will loudly and obnoxiously enforce our standard of acceptability when we're criticising someone's appearance but seem to so utterly fail to police ourselves when in comes to behavioural problems and abuses.

Jesus, that's a really good and disturbing point. Maybe because it's just more fun to point and laugh at fat people than it is to take time out of the day to say, "Hey, chill bro. Maybe just take a step back or two. Kay? No, it's cool, but boundaries are important."

[Salty]

More fun for some anyway.

[monad]

but you can hardly fault the person being creeped on for being more concerned about their safety than taking the opportunity to educate and better their harasser.

I did not mean to imply otherwise.

[Salty]

It's all good, monad. We won't throw you the wolves just yet.

I mean, I won't.

Yet.

[Pæs]

Speculation: It's because we place more value, personally, on looking good than we do on behaving well. So criticising someone else's appearance as an assertion of your own status deals a larger blow to them and a bigger boost to your ego and perception of your status than telling them that their behaviour was unacceptable.

Further speculation: Criticising appearance has a greater impact because of the insecurities this entire system gifts us with. If our culture's focus was on acceptable behaviour, criticism of that would be more effective.