Author Topic: So here's a question  (Read 6127 times)

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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2014, 04:02:42 am »
Being a child of situation B and having fond memories of coming home to find one parent or another lying unconscious, barely breathing, in piles of their own shit, vomit, and alcohol . . . I think B is probably worst during the prolonged event and A is worse in the aftermath.

There are so many what-ifs and what-could-have-beens if your parents terminate before you really get to experience the full spectrum of their cray-cray. It's easy to put them on a pedestal and pine away for the idea image of someone you never knew. It can fuck up your future.

Situation B, if you get through it without going crazy, seems easier to handle. There are some of the what-ifs and if-onlies but only in regards to wishing you were adopted so there was a less chance of ending up with the chemical dependance, dementia, cancer, and raging redneckitis. There sure the hell isn't any possible way to put the parents on a pedestal and idolize them. Granted you may end up a little socially stunted and awkward and the 'tough-love' induced blunt head trauma may leave you permanently dizzy and with poor peripheral vision . . . but at least you don't have any illusions about where you stand with your folks.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2014, 06:19:37 am »
No, not really.  Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away.  THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...

Either way it's fucking  horrible. The only advantage I can see to alienating your family and then abandoning them is that it allows them to write you off as an asshole, which, trust me, they will want to do even if you weren't, because suicide is a complete and utter asshole thing to do to people who love you. The anger after a loved one commits suicide is deep and frightening, alongside the self-recrimination, guilt, and unreconcilable regret that never goes away.

My mother's godson committed suicide. I didn't know him very well, but it was my mother's godson, so I went with her and she was pretty upset. He was a teenager. The line for his wake was around the parking lot. Mom and I were in line for an hour and a half. About 20 minutes into it, she said to me, "if only he could see how many people would show up for this, maybe he wouldn't have done it." And you know what, she was right.

I myself have a pretty complex relationship with my parents. I'm not sure either of them realize how complex it is. But I would be absolutely gutted if either one of them offed themselves. I don't have to like them to love them unconditionally. And I'm saying this as a 32 year old.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2014, 06:45:45 am »
I think there are a ton of confounding factors that make it a non-straightforward question, as you bring up... is the parent an alcohol or drug addict? Are they abusive? Those issues completely change the equation. They don't mean that it necessarily makes suicide easier or harder for the child to handle, they just add to the complexity of the trauma.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2014, 06:46:39 am »
I mean, "Daddy killed himself because he molested me" is not going to make things easier on the abandoned and abused child.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2014, 06:48:04 am »
So, what it comes down to, I guess, is yes, I would rather my parents suffer than die. Because at least they're still alive and have some glimmer of hope. And they're both stubborn fucking assholes so there's no excuse there. I wouldn't forgive them for it. I'd never get over it.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2014, 06:48:59 am »
No, not really.  Because not only do you have the fact that you were abandoned, not only do you never have the chance to figure out why, and spend who knows how long blaming yourself, you find yourself wondering what you could have done that was so horrible that you drove someone who you thought loved you away.  THAT, you get to wrestle with for however long it takes, and THEN you deal with not only the loss, but the question of what you could have done to stop it, if only you'd been there, if only you'd tried harder, if only you'd seen...

Either way it's fucking  horrible. The only advantage I can see to alienating your family and then abandoning them is that it allows them to write you off as an asshole, which, trust me, they will want to do even if you weren't, because suicide is a complete and utter asshole thing to do to people who love you. The anger after a loved one commits suicide is deep and frightening, alongside the self-recrimination, guilt, and unreconcilable regret that never goes away.

My mother's godson committed suicide. I didn't know him very well, but it was my mother's godson, so I went with her and she was pretty upset. He was a teenager. The line for his wake was around the parking lot. Mom and I were in line for an hour and a half. About 20 minutes into it, she said to me, "if only he could see how many people would show up for this, maybe he wouldn't have done it." And you know what, she was right.

I myself have a pretty complex relationship with my parents. I'm not sure either of them realize how complex it is. But I would be absolutely gutted if either one of them offed themselves. I don't have to like them to love them unconditionally. And I'm saying this as a 32 year old.

She was probably wrong. Because people who commit suicide are so detached from reality that it doesn't matter if they know ten thousand grieving people will show up to their funeral. All they know is that they don't care enough about anything or anyone to stick around.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2014, 06:50:08 am »
So, what it comes down to, I guess, is yes, I would rather my parents suffer than die. Because at least they're still alive and have some glimmer of hope. And they're both stubborn fucking assholes so there's no excuse there. I wouldn't forgive them for it. I'd never get over it.

Suicide is the ultimate expression not of despair, but of terminal selfishness.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2014, 06:52:39 am »
You bring up good points there, Nigel.

You also brought up an excellent point of what if it was your kid.

If my parents killed themselves, I'd never forgive them.

If my kids killed themselves, I'd never forgive myself.

Either way it's not my fault, but that's an interesting distinction.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2014, 07:08:36 am »
I struggle with my own shit sometimes. There have been a few times, and there are still occasional times where I'm just like yeah, just chuck me in a box and get rid of me. But probably the most profound though I had against that was how would that fuck up Twidsister. And this was before those genes started messing with her head. I couldn't do that to her before when she was a kid, and I definitely couldn't do it now that I know that she goes through those same bouts (she turns 18 this year). Before it was like, how could someone explain that to her, and now it's what sort of example would that set? I wouldn't want her to do that, even if I wasn't around to mourn it.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2014, 06:14:12 pm »
It's interesting to see so many different sides of this.
Nigel, did you have people close to you self terminate? You seem very bitter and angry about it.
I never considered the ones I know to have been selfish assholes. I sort of sympathized. In a weird kind of way.
I understood a couple of them, like my friend with the child (which is where all of this stemmed from. I was thinking about her the other day).

She was in an accident and in a coma for a couple of months. A small portion of her brain had to be removed due to swelling, and one day she woke up and said "Where's my bike. Shit. Where the hell am I?", like nothing had happened. However, she suffered a downward spiral of depression a short while after. It went on for a couple of years. No smiles, no happiness, not even moments of "ok". She truly just suffered under a dark cloud until one day she ended it.
I feel horrible for her family and her child, but at the same time I never saw her as a selfish asshole, but as someone who just couldn't live inside her own head anymore. I felt sympathy for her. I felt like she was finally free. I'm sure her family thinks much differently, but it was hard for everyone to watch her suffer, and honestly, I think there was a little relief from a few. Her grandmother said "She doesn't have to suffer anymore" at her memorial service.

As far as comparing it to my own child, I can't even fathom the thought. Meaning I can't even think about that. The idea of him even being heartbroken over a girl makes me want to Hulk out on this town. I love that boy more than words can even say (obviously), so really, I can't use that to contrast, cause the mere thought makes me die inside.

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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2014, 07:40:53 pm »
When one of my best friends blew his brains out in 2004 because his girlfriend said no to his proposal (see also: laughed in his face,) I didn't react with empathy or sadness, I reacted with anger. In fact, I think the first thing I said when my mom told me what happened was, "I'm gonna kill him!" despite it being, well, too late for that. Another friend from high school did suffer from depression for years before he finally succeeded with suicide. That...that was a little less harsh feeling, imo. Because he did seek help, and his friends were always there for him. It made me feel terrible, though, terrible in that there was no way I could have saved him. He made up his choice years before he finally did it, he just hid it well.
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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2014, 07:43:15 pm »
Circumstances always apply.

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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2014, 08:11:11 pm »
I have stuff to say about this, but I'm posting via phone.

Short form: Dad decided not to continue cancer treatment, though he knew it would end his life sooner. So he both suffered AND killed himself.

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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2014, 08:18:15 pm »
Yes, I have, and yes, I am.

Consider that for most kids who are well-bonded to a parent, that parent is the love of their life. The idea of a parent dying, for most young children, is as unthinkable as the idea of losing a child is to post parents.

Your friend who was brain damaged was, well, brain damaged. That can cause no significant personality changes at all, or it can be huge. Who knows?

I understand that people who are depressed are literally incapable of seeing outside their depression, and to a large degree are also incapable of doing most of the things that are clinically known to help lift depression, but I still think that suicide is a complete dick move.

I do support physician-assisted suicide for terminal patients, though.

It's interesting to see so many different sides of this.
Nigel, did you have people close to you self terminate? You seem very bitter and angry about it.
I never considered the ones I know to have been selfish assholes. I sort of sympathized. In a weird kind of way.
I understood a couple of them, like my friend with the child (which is where all of this stemmed from. I was thinking about her the other day).

She was in an accident and in a coma for a couple of months. A small portion of her brain had to be removed due to swelling, and one day she woke up and said "Where's my bike. Shit. Where the hell am I?", like nothing had happened. However, she suffered a downward spiral of depression a short while after. It went on for a couple of years. No smiles, no happiness, not even moments of "ok". She truly just suffered under a dark cloud until one day she ended it.
I feel horrible for her family and her child, but at the same time I never saw her as a selfish asshole, but as someone who just couldn't live inside her own head anymore. I felt sympathy for her. I felt like she was finally free. I'm sure her family thinks much differently, but it was hard for everyone to watch her suffer, and honestly, I think there was a little relief from a few. Her grandmother said "She doesn't have to suffer anymore" at her memorial service.

As far as comparing it to my own child, I can't even fathom the thought. Meaning I can't even think about that. The idea of him even being heartbroken over a girl makes me want to Hulk out on this town. I love that boy more than words can even say (obviously), so really, I can't use that to contrast, cause the mere thought makes me die inside.
Im guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk, Charles Wick said. It was very complicated.


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Re: So here's a question
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2014, 08:22:35 pm »
I have stuff to say about this, but I'm posting via phone.

Short form: Dad decided not to continue cancer treatment, though he knew it would end his life sooner. So he both suffered AND killed himself.

 :sad:
I am truly sorry.