Swingers

[POFP]

Is LuciferX a non-native English speaker? Because I don't want to shit on somebody for having a poor grasp of a second or third language, I just really really cannot understand what the fuck he's on about.

No, he just takes statements he can't understand as insults, or denigration, because he has ego issues. He also neglects to state his personal views and opinions as views or opinions, and instead, states them as universal facts. This is also because of ego issues.

After everyone takes the opposing side, he remembers to throw in the fact that his statements were, in-fact, views and opinions. He does this, without realizing it, because of the ego issues. You can't have an incorrect opinion or view, so his ego re-writes his paragraphs for him in E-Prime and with extra (Yet, twisted) pedantry.

How do I know this? Because I used to do the same shit. Maybe I still do the same shit. But admitting that you do it and seeing it in yourself and others is the first step to solving the problem. Believe it or not (This is at LuciferX) you don't need other people to help you with that problem, because I know you probably wouldn't let anyone try to fix that problem because you're so hateful towards the idea of someone who isn't you (Because everyone is lesser than you, right?) fixing you.

EDIT: Basically, this makes it seem as though Lucifer is disagreeing one moment, and switching directions the next. And when you're under attack when you have ego issues, you tend to kick your pedantry machine too hard, causing it to spit out the sludge you read by LuciferX half of the time. You start re-reading pieces of what you write, as you write it, and you throw different ideas into it in every cycle, causing loops of concept shittery. It's just what happens when your ego is desperate and you have a decent intelligence. Yeah, I said it, I have no doubt that he's intelligent. He just has some issues he needs to deal with before he'll start making sense.

Whoa, that was pretty incisive.

Thanks for the insight.

Thanks. When you spend years breaking your own tendencies down into a science, you start to recognize the patterns in others as well.

When you have the background that I do, and the years of experience in putting others down (As a small child, until about the age of 14, I was an awful bully.), it gets hard to look at yourself on any realistic level without feeling terrible. I have no doubt that he was also bullied and became a bully out of spite. But, the moment you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's, and you're not actually enlightened beyond any of these "mere mortals," life gets sooooo much easier. And people get so much easier to deal with.

Another thing I realized eventually:

You gotta love the shithead that you actually are, not the one you imagine yourself to be. You got some baggage? You got some dirt? Oh well. No one is perfect. Forgive yourself, and move on. Nothing is irredeemable. I watched my mom tell my child molesting grandfather, that she forgives him for everything he did to her, just before he died. Ignoring your flaws is not a valid method of redemption.

TLDR: If you were ever interested in the process by which a Pathological Narcissist fixes itself, read above.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Is LuciferX a non-native English speaker? Because I don't want to shit on somebody for having a poor grasp of a second or third language, I just really really cannot understand what the fuck he's on about.

No, he just takes statements he can't understand as insults, or denigration, because he has ego issues. He also neglects to state his personal views and opinions as views or opinions, and instead, states them as universal facts. This is also because of ego issues.

After everyone takes the opposing side, he remembers to throw in the fact that his statements were, in-fact, views and opinions. He does this, without realizing it, because of the ego issues. You can't have an incorrect opinion or view, so his ego re-writes his paragraphs for him in E-Prime and with extra (Yet, twisted) pedantry.

How do I know this? Because I used to do the same shit. Maybe I still do the same shit. But admitting that you do it and seeing it in yourself and others is the first step to solving the problem. Believe it or not (This is at LuciferX) you don't need other people to help you with that problem, because I know you probably wouldn't let anyone try to fix that problem because you're so hateful towards the idea of someone who isn't you (Because everyone is lesser than you, right?) fixing you.

EDIT: Basically, this makes it seem as though Lucifer is disagreeing one moment, and switching directions the next. And when you're under attack when you have ego issues, you tend to kick your pedantry machine too hard, causing it to spit out the sludge you read by LuciferX half of the time. You start re-reading pieces of what you write, as you write it, and you throw different ideas into it in every cycle, causing loops of concept shittery. It's just what happens when your ego is desperate and you have a decent intelligence. Yeah, I said it, I have no doubt that he's intelligent. He just has some issues he needs to deal with before he'll start making sense.

Whoa, that was pretty incisive.

Thanks for the insight.

Thanks. When you spend years breaking your own tendencies down into a science, you start to recognize the patterns in others as well.

When you have the background that I do, and the years of experience in putting others down (As a small child, until about the age of 14, I was an awful bully.), it gets hard to look at yourself on any realistic level without feeling terrible. I have no doubt that he was also bullied and became a bully out of spite. But, the moment you realize your shit stinks just like everyone else's, and you're not actually enlightened beyond any of these "mere mortals," life gets sooooo much easier. And people get so much easier to deal with.

Another thing I realized eventually:

You gotta love the shithead that you actually are, not the one you imagine yourself to be. You got some baggage? You got some dirt? Oh well. No one is perfect. Forgive yourself, and move on. Nothing is irredeemable. I watched my mom tell my child molesting grandfather, that she forgives him for everything he did to her, just before he died. Ignoring your flaws is not a valid method of redemption.

TLDR: If you were ever interested in the process by which a Pathological Narcissist fixes itself, read above.

I think that element of introspection is really important. Not just "finding yourself" bullshit, which often takes the form of running away from who you are in pursuit of who you wish you were, but actually looking at yourself and going, OK this is what I'm working with. The real me is messy, flawed, and vulnerable. But still, it's who I am, it's what I've got. Are there things I would like to change about myself? OK that takes work, and can only be done incrementally, and it takes a long time, and I'll fuck it up, so I'd better be forgiving of myself.

I think that loving one's self, flaws and all, is really hard and really important. I didn't like myself as a child, and I had a hard time forgiving my mistakes. This really limited my ability to protect my own boundaries or to be compassionate of others, which is something that I still work on. But I couldn't even start until I developed compassion for my own fucked-up past self.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I guess you never stop working on shit, really. People who do get smug and insufferable because they're unable to view their own bullshit.

[LMNO]

Yeah.  I thought I was the bomb-diggity when I was younger, and then when it was pointed out that I was a selfish prick, it was a (series of ever-escalating) shocks, until I figured out that, yeah, I'm not the person I want to be, I'm the person I am.

But it wasn't until even later than that when I figured out that it's not a switch that gets flipped, it's like a seawall in constant need of maintanance.

Still working on it, and I'm growing more comfortable with that.

[POFP]

When you start appreciating the tendencies you find in yourself, and how you acquired them, you start to appreciate other people and their tendencies. When you understand why someone is acting the way they are, you can even start to like the bad things they do just as much as the good things. I like humanity as a whole. I like the beauty in their successes, just as much as the horror in their failures. War and Peace, two sides of the same coin. The death, and the life. The theft and charity.

I used to be alone in a room full of people of varying qualities. Now, I'm just as comfortable talking to a polite stranger, as I am talking to a wealthy and powerful person, or violent delinquent. I can do business, and relate to people of all walks of life. The only people I generally find uninteresting are those who are mostly emotional. Those who react, almost robotically, based on their emotions. They are the most unstable, yet, predictable of people. Spotting them is easy, and there is generally nothing to learn from them after you've met one or two of them. The only thing that varies between those people are the backgrounds that caused them, and even those aren't complicated, nor do they really vary in large degrees.

I still find problems I have to work on. But I'm getting to the point, on some issues, where I don't know if they're a problem or not. Ideally, one would define something as a problem if it causes incidences. But, if the incidences don't affect me, are they deficiencies in me? If it doesn't burn any bridges, and I get something out of it, but it still causes conflict amongst others (if they know), is it something that needs fixed? I would only think to fix it if it harmed those I cared about. But it doesn't.

My question is, at what point are we just "optimizing" for the fuck of it?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know. I think a large part of the reason to keep re-evaluating is because the people and environments around us change, and sometimes things that worked well for us once stop working so well, but we may be oblivious to that if we aren't up for a little periodic re-evaluation.

Have you ever known an older person who was so set on ways of interacting with the world that worked perfectly for them 20 years ago, but just seem hopelessly rigid and blindly hierarchical and authoritarian now? Contrast that with the older people who seem to adapt quickly, and have an endless curiosity for new information and different perspectives. One is a dinosaur. The other is wise.

[POFP]

I don't know. I think a large part of the reason to keep re-evaluating is because the people and environments around us change, and sometimes things that worked well for us once stop working so well, but we may be oblivious to that if we aren't up for a little periodic re-evaluation.

Have you ever known an older person who was so set on ways of interacting with the world that worked perfectly for them 20 years ago, but just seem hopelessly rigid and blindly hierarchical and authoritarian now? Contrast that with the older people who seem to adapt quickly, and have an endless curiosity for new information and different perspectives. One is a dinosaur. The other is wise.

Good point. But I personally consider adaptability to be a result of an evaluation or set of evaluations, not a sign of constant re-evaluation. Adaptability is a mindset. I think adaptability can be measured by magnitude of successful changes, but I see it as something that you either have or don't have.

Tell me if that doesn't make sense, because I've had trouble trying to put that into words.

[Doktor Howl]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't know. I think a large part of the reason to keep re-evaluating is because the people and environments around us change, and sometimes things that worked well for us once stop working so well, but we may be oblivious to that if we aren't up for a little periodic re-evaluation.

Have you ever known an older person who was so set on ways of interacting with the world that worked perfectly for them 20 years ago, but just seem hopelessly rigid and blindly hierarchical and authoritarian now? Contrast that with the older people who seem to adapt quickly, and have an endless curiosity for new information and different perspectives. One is a dinosaur. The other is wise.

Good point. But I personally consider adaptability to be a result of an evaluation or set of evaluations, not a sign of constant re-evaluation. Adaptability is a mindset. I think adaptability can be measured by magnitude of successful changes, but I see it as something that you either have or don't have.

Tell me if that doesn't make sense, because I've had trouble trying to put that into words.

You seem to be saying that adaptability is an inborn trait that is not learnable. That is incorrect: inborn temperament tendencies can cause people to be more or less attracted to adaptability, but adaptability itself is learnable, just as temperament is mutable depending on environmental influences.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

YES.

[Doktor Howl]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

YES.

I think the "Sold his soul for a bad job" is rant-worthy, but in a new thread.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

YES.

I think the "Sold his soul for a bad job" is rant-worthy, but in a new thread.

I would like to read that.

[Doktor Howl]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

YES.

I think the "Sold his soul for a bad job" is rant-worthy, but in a new thread.

I would like to read that.

Not so much about treacherous underling, as the general concept.

People do it with alarming regularity.

Thing is, the swinger thing kind of relies on the other people not being people.  Just disposable fuckbags.  There is a diference between this and casual dating, but I need to figure out how to state it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Recent events at work, involving both my own behavior and that of treacherous underling, have convinced me of one thing.  It sounds corny, but when it's all over and done with, all you have is your morality and your integrity.

These are predicated on not shitting on those below you, and not sucking the arses of those above you.  This doesn't mean you handle subordinates like hothouse flowers and act like an oppositional-defiant jackass to your bosses, it just means you act like a biped.

When I leave, treacherous underling will get my job.  He thinks that's a win.   

The reasons it isn't a win are as follows:

1.  The plant will be shut down at the end of the fiscal year (June 31), or January 1 at the absolute outside.
2.  The crew hates him, because they know very well what he's been up to, and Lilly thinks of him as a toadie, and
3.  He sold his soul for a bad job.  Seriously.  I've known this guy for just shy of 10 years, and I always respected the hell out of him.  Now he's a backstabbing shit, or at least he would be if he was any good at it.  And it's not just me, he's managed to alienate the entire industrial community in Tucson, and the major players in Phoenix.

I realize that this is a drift from the topic even greater than the posts above it, but it's relevant.  Give a shit about other people as people, or become something a tad lower than Ted Cruz.

YES.

I think the "Sold his soul for a bad job" is rant-worthy, but in a new thread.

I would like to read that.

Not so much about treacherous underling, as the general concept.

People do it with alarming regularity.

Thing is, the swinger thing kind of relies on the other people not being people.  Just disposable fuckbags.  There is a diference between this and casual dating, but I need to figure out how to state it.

I think that not only are you completely right, but that however you figure out how to state it, I will be interesting in reading it. I think that you're right, there's a big difference, but the hard part is articulating it in a way that makes it clear that it ain't any kind of slut-shaming, but about treating people like people and not protrusions or holes.

[Doktor Howl]

I think that not only are you completely right, but that however you figure out how to state it, I will be interesting in reading it. I think that you're right, there's a big difference, but the hard part is articulating it in a way that makes it clear that it ain't any kind of slut-shaming, but about treating people like people and not protrusions or holes.

You're thinking the same way I am.  Someone who likes to fuck likes to fuck, it's just that simple.  But the compulsion to swap partners seems to me to be an expression of absolute contempt for everyone involved, starting with and most especially said partner.  Even if they're into it.  Especially if they're into it.