So what's this whole Race and Gender thing all about....

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=34741.msg1267082#msg1267082

[Reginald Ret]

I mean, what if a woman laughed and was like "Oh, LOL, you're a man? I didn't notice!"

Shift the context just a little, and people will take it as an insult. NOT NOTICING who people are isn't flattering, it isn't nice, it isn't post-racism. It's just being a dick, unless you authentically have brain damage or a disorder that makes it difficult for you to perceive physical attributes of individual people.

I wouldn't be insulted by that.
I'm not saying I don't notice who people are, I'm saying I notice what people do sooner than I notice a haircut. Do not assume that my lack of interest in looks only extends to those looks that are different than mine, I don't give a fuck about my own looks either.
I have similar blocks regarding money, I don't notice the price of some rich asshole's clothes, I notice them acting like they are better than other people.

I don't have brain damage, I have self-built mental blocks that keep me from perceiving trivial attributes of people such as minor variations in looks.
People for whom superficial traits are so essential to their identity that they feel insulted if others aren't constantly noticing those traits are difficult for me to understand. Don't these people have hobbies?
Maybe this would help clarify:
If someone sees you sitting and reading, would you prefer a question about your thighs or about your book?

Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine. White men tend to be the worst, because they assume that thinking you're just like them is some kind of compliment, like "Oh, I didn't even notice you were brown or female" is supposed to make me feel GOOD about myself.

No need to apologize, I knew that beforehand.

Oh, relevant! I would notice your skin and gender because it is a large part of your self-image. I would still care more about your study books and be more likely to remember titles of your books than the length of your hair a few days (or even minutes) later.
If that is generally considered offensive, I still won't change that part of me. I am an anti-social bibliophile and a boorish bastard.

[Don Coyote]

If someone sees you sitting and reading, would you prefer a question about your thighs or about your book?

Really classy brah.

[Reginald Ret]

If someone sees you sitting and reading, would you prefer a question about your thighs hair or about your book?

Really classy brah.

Sorry, is it better like this?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Just LOOK at all that virtue you're assigning to yourself. And the flip side, the malignment of those terribly shallow people who don't have the virtue of not noticing people's appearance.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But please, continue to tell women and brown people why they're lame and shallow to find "I don't see gender" and "I don't see race" facile, disingenuous, and insulting.

[LMNO]

But I'm so much better than you this way!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

But I'm so much better than you this way!

If everyone was more virtuous, like me, the world would be a better place! There wouldn't be any racism or sexism, because I just don't see those things. I choose not to notice them.

[Don Coyote]

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

Shhh. Now just sit there and let the men talk about the best way to notice and approach women.

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

But how else are alpha-males going to get laid if not by approaching women in totally inappropriate circumstances.

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

But how else are alpha-males going to get fodder for their blogs in which they sing their praises for complimenting the obviously available woman on her choice of reading material rather than her physical appearance, and simultaneously excoriate that same woman for being a rude, bitch who is full of herself and is actually just a fake nerd and ugly?   

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http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=34741.msg1267082#msg1267082

Isn't noting the prevalence of white people in Portland "seeing race"? Just because someone happens to be currently located in one of the more diverse areas like a Mississippi bar doesn't change the fact that the ratio of white people to minorities is surprisingly high in terms of the greater Metro area. Unless you live and work in Northeast and never run errands outside of a small area, it's quite noticeable.

I used to commute from Northeast to Tigard everyday so I'd see whiteys all day and then come home to a neighborhood full of different skin tones. That and having had just moved back from the East Bay at the time just made the segregated neighborhoods and prevalence of whiteness quite jarring so I commented on it a lot for a while.

But apparently I was betraying a fear of dark skin? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how complaining about Portland's inordinate amount of whiteness is an example of "not seeing race"? Is it only okay to discuss the unfortunate lack of diversity in Portland when you are currently in one of its white areas? I find it comforting to be in a fairly diverse city again because being surrounded by almost entirely one race is fairly creepy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Isn't noting the prevalence of white people in Portland "seeing race"? Just because someone happens to be currently located in one of the more diverse areas like a Mississippi bar doesn't change the fact that the ratio of white people to minorities is surprisingly high in terms of the greater Metro area. Unless you live and work in Northeast and never run errands outside of a small area, it's quite noticeable.

I used to commute from Northeast to Tigard everyday so I'd see whiteys all day and then come home to a neighborhood full of different skin tones. That and having had just moved back from the East Bay at the time just made the segregated neighborhoods and prevalence of whiteness quite jarring so I commented on it a lot for a while.

But apparently I was betraying a fear of dark skin? I guess I'm having trouble seeing how complaining about Portland's inordinate amount of whiteness is an example of "not seeing race"? Is it only okay to discuss the unfortunate lack of diversity in Portland when you are currently in one of its white areas? I find it comforting to be in a fairly diverse city again because being surrounded by almost entirely one race is fairly creepy.

What I wrote was specifically about the issue of rendering invisible those people of color who ARE present (@ 30% of Portland's population) by saying that they don't exist. The specific incident I refer to in that story occurred at Mississippi Pizza, and pretty much as always, when I looked around, there were a number of brown-skinned patrons; at least 1/3 of the people there were not white, including two of the servers. There is a reason that I specified that these comments, this disappearance, is troubling when it takes place in North and Northeast, in Portland's least white neighborhoods. The lack of black patrons in establishments in neighborhoods that were historically black and still have large black and brown populations... that's a whole other conversation about social segregation, exclusion, and gentrification.

It's sort of "seeing race" through a white filter, if you only notice the white ones. It's a more extreme, literal version of "not seeing color" when you just can't see the brown people. Yeah, Portland is about 70% white, and if you stick to certain neighborhoods you can (hypothetically, albeit unlikely in reality) go days without seeing a brown person. However, I think it might be worth noting that I never have, even though I have worked and lived in some of the whitest parts of town. If you're used to a much browner town, yes, Portland has a startlingly high percentage of white people. But anyone who is walking around and literally not seeing the 1/3 of the population who isn't white is, by the odds, more likely to be operating under a filter that disappears brown people than actually in an environment devoid of blacks, native north and south americans, and asians.

Tigard is only 15% non-white, so, yeah, that's a lot whiter. But also, it is not Portland. Because it is Tigard. Which is literally a different city from Portland.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

Shhh. Now just sit there and let the men talk about the best way to notice and approach women.

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

But how else are alpha-males going to get laid if not by approaching women in totally inappropriate circumstances.

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

But how else are alpha-males going to get fodder for their blogs in which they sing their praises for complimenting the obviously available woman on her choice of reading material rather than her physical appearance, and simultaneously excoriate that same woman for being a rude, bitch who is full of herself and is actually just a fake nerd and ugly?

[Reginald Ret]

Just LOOK at all that virtue you're assigning to yourself. And the flip side, the malignment of those terribly shallow people who don't have the virtue of not noticing people's appearance.

I'm quite aware that I am a bad person, I just don't think that my attempts to not judge by appearance is one of the reasons.

If someone sees me sitting there reading, I prefer that they notice that I'm reading and leave me the fuck alone. Why would YOU approach a stranger who is reading? I can tell you why I'm approached while I'm reading 99% of the time, and it isn't because they failed to notice my gender or appearance.

I would want to be left alone as well so I wouldn't approach reading people.
If most approaches while you are reading happen because they assign greater value to your looks than to your book and that annoys you, that means you would prefer people to notice your book? Are you saying that books are more important than looks? Because that would be nice but it doesn't fit the general tone of your other posts.

But please, continue to tell women and brown people why they're lame and shallow to find "I don't see gender" and "I don't see race" facile, disingenuous, and insulting.

Isn't assigning a large value to superficial traits like skin color the definition of shallow?
I'm telling people who assign a large value to superficial traits that they are shallow. That usually hits bigots harder than brown women.
I see skin color just fine, I just don't assign it a large value.

I get the impression we are not fighting on the same battleground, I'm trying to tell you that broad-brush superficial categories don't matter to me and that I hope many other people think that way as well.
You are trying to tell me I am lying because other people tend to lie about that. OK, so you don't believe me. I can accept that. Just don't expect me to be quiet when you call me a liar.

My last attempt at clarifying what I mean:
I think superficial and trivial should have a large overlap so I try to shape my thought processes to make that true.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Ret: if you're trying to say you notice traits like race and gender, but make a conscious effort to avoid judging people based on those traits, you probably don't want to express that by saying you "don't notice" those traits.