Author Topic: Incel  (Read 4784 times)

Doktor Howl

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Re: Incel
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 07:18:57 pm »
Sure, and that’s your thing, and that’s fine.

My point was more “here are reasons not to”. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, this isn’t a place to evangelize, unless you’re using your ass to do it. I may have come across more forceful than that, but I think my reasons and my history explain why that would be the case. The intent was milder and I’m not going to call you all shitgoblins for not following my lead.

I might call Cramulus a shitgoblin anyway, but that’s for the Eastern Terror of 2019 more than for his opinions. I can’t be expected to forget the entire truck of radioactive ‘stache catching fire or the subsequent mutant Buddhists climbing buildings and howling for the end of dukkha. Nor can I be expected to FORGIVE.

Forgiving Cramulus is just another way of saying "To Cramulus is okay."  It's permission.  The Cramulus will say that he has changed, that he has turned over a new leaf.

But if he HAD, he wouldn't be Cramulus.  He'd be someone else entirely.
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Dunning-Krueger out of control
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Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Doktor Howl

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Re: Incel
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2019, 07:19:22 pm »
So is this too a toxic internet community that will ruin my mental health?

Sort of gilding the lily, though.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

The Johnny

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Re: Incel
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2019, 07:34:38 pm »
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people aren’t really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Doktor Howl

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Re: Incel
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2019, 07:36:45 pm »
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people aren’t really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Incel
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2019, 08:25:28 pm »
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people aren’t really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.

Cramulus

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Re: Incel
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2019, 08:26:27 pm »
Sure, and that’s your thing, and that’s fine.

My point was more “here are reasons not to”. I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here, this isn’t a place to evangelize, unless you’re using your ass to do it. I may have come across more forceful than that, but I think my reasons and my history explain why that would be the case. The intent was milder and I’m not going to call you all shitgoblins for not following my lead.

I might call Cramulus a shitgoblin anyway, but that’s for the Eastern Terror of 2019 more than for his opinions. I can’t be expected to forget the entire truck of radioactive ‘stache catching fire or the subsequent mutant Buddhists climbing buildings and howling for the end of dukkha. Nor can I be expected to FORGIVE.

Forgiving Cramulus is just another way of saying "To Cramulus is okay."  It's permission.  The Cramulus will say that he has changed, that he has turned over a new leaf.

But if he HAD, he wouldn't be Cramulus.  He'd be someone else entirely.

100 years from now, a tractor-feed printer next to your brain-vat will print out

10 I was just obeying Cramulus' mind control
20 Goto 10


this will be a valid legal defense because the entire legal system will be based on my mind control




altered

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Re: Incel
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2019, 08:32:43 pm »
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people aren’t really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.

There’s something I need to write someday about how the belief that there is no value in the output of a terrible person is incorrect and actively harmful.

For one thing, it’s another way of pretending they aren’t human, and thus that we couldn’t have possibly turned out Just Like Them.

For another, it’s another bullshit psychological bias like “only ugly people are bad” and so forth.

Blindly forsaking the entire output of anyone who has ever been bad only leaves a person culturally impoverished and easier to manipulate.

That’s not to say there is no value in leaving behind shit made by terrible people, but one must be aware of the reasons they’re doing that.

Even saying “my innate psychological biases make it difficult for me to enjoy now” is enough of a reason. Just be conscious of it, for fuck’s sake.
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The Johnny

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Re: Incel
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2019, 08:44:45 pm »

I just have friends that really like him, and i personally enjoy "The Man Who Sold the World" album... thanks for the input Dok, QGP.

And Null, practically nobody knows what they're doing and they're contradictory and incoherent, and from that perspective, bad people can do good things and good people can do bad things...

Maybe I could elaborate, but that's pretty much the fundamentals of it.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Incel
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2019, 08:55:43 pm »
There's a difference between "we should not give this person money" and "everything this person touched in any way is irredeemably tainted," too. That's where I tend to put my energy. I don't think we should sweep the bad things popular people have done under the rug, and I do think people should be held to account, but I'm not, for example, pulling Bowie off all my playlists.

Kevin Spacey I actually have more opinions on. We met once briefly on the House of Cards set, he was extremely busy between takes working remotely on the "I'm The Captain" movie, but he and the husband got on great. And later, well, we all found things out. The plot the husband and I worked on was centered on the low ranking shlubs who were trying and destined to fail at taking his character down. When you're doing that (or at least when my crazy ass does) you can't help but get invested. And they tell you from go "This show is about the Underwoods, they will always win," but it still breaks your heart a bit. You get kicked in the balls enough and eventually you just don't want to play anymore.

Then you find out the guy kicking you in the balls is an asshole IRL, too. And it starts to feel less like the game you signed up for. And then you have to confront the fact that your labor and investment and love have built up something that enriches an asshole, giving him more power and influence and straight up cash.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Incel
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2019, 09:15:26 pm »
I am not against canceling, but on a strictly personal level.

This, basically.

A lot of people aren’t really aware of what is bad about ContraPoints, so I definitely am trying to give them information they can use to make that decision themselves.

I gotta go with Faust on this one, though.  I will still listen to David Bowie, for example, though if he were alive, I would never want to meet him.

What about David Bowie?

During his coke years, he slept with a girl after a concert, who turned out to be 15, as I understand it.  I am told by a certain type of person that this means I cannot listen to his music anymore.

The overt nazi period is also An Issue.

There’s something I need to write someday about how the belief that there is no value in the output of a terrible person is incorrect and actively harmful.

For one thing, it’s another way of pretending they aren’t human, and thus that we couldn’t have possibly turned out Just Like Them.

For another, it’s another bullshit psychological bias like “only ugly people are bad” and so forth.

Blindly forsaking the entire output of anyone who has ever been bad only leaves a person culturally impoverished and easier to manipulate.

That’s not to say there is no value in leaving behind shit made by terrible people, but one must be aware of the reasons they’re doing that.

Even saying “my innate psychological biases make it difficult for me to enjoy now” is enough of a reason. Just be conscious of it, for fuck’s sake.

It ALSO means that you have to write of 99% of the world's art.  Because, strangely enough, damn near every major artist/author/musician was a complete shit in some manner.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Faust

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Re: Incel
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2019, 10:41:14 pm »
There's a difference between "we should not give this person money" and "everything this person touched in any way is irredeemably tainted," too. That's where I tend to put my energy. I don't think we should sweep the bad things popular people have done under the rug, and I do think people should be held to account, but I'm not, for example, pulling Bowie off all my playlists.

Kevin Spacey I actually have more opinions on. We met once briefly on the House of Cards set, he was extremely busy between takes working remotely on the "I'm The Captain" movie, but he and the husband got on great. And later, well, we all found things out. The plot the husband and I worked on was centered on the low ranking shlubs who were trying and destined to fail at taking his character down. When you're doing that (or at least when my crazy ass does) you can't help but get invested. And they tell you from go "This show is about the Underwoods, they will always win," but it still breaks your heart a bit. You get kicked in the balls enough and eventually you just don't want to play anymore.

Then you find out the guy kicking you in the balls is an asshole IRL, too. And it starts to feel less like the game you signed up for. And then you have to confront the fact that your labor and investment and love have built up something that enriches an asshole, giving him more power and influence and straight up cash.

That's a really cool headtrip to be in, just watching the show you simultaneously want him to get his comeuppance and wanting to see how he gets out of the ever escalating gambit.
I can't even imagine what the emotional investment in playing those characters would be like, and then watching him get embroiled in real life scandal.
When people talk about separating the art from the artist it was one where I couldn't do that at all: That was the ending for me, conflated reality merging of the characters with the show giving a conclusion that married the themes of that entitlement, he got caught and that was the ending for me, no more tension in the show.
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