Author Topic: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify  (Read 73511 times)

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1305 on: June 18, 2020, 02:54:05 pm »
As someone I admire a lot I am going to wait for his statement on this.

A writer being a sleeze with his fans is gross, and its possible. but some of the things being said on that thread dont add up.
While Ellis was a literary artistic success in the field of comic books he could never "make or break an aspiring career", he has made a modest living on his career as a writer but...
Just from reading around he has operated on the commercial perifery of the comics industry with a lot of indy work, the big two have always maintained contracts which mean the writer does not get rich, the first time that has happened for him ironically (despite an awesome catalogue of work) is when he made castlevenia a year ago.
He was not a publisher, and has had run ins with publishers like hellblazer ending because of the school shooting issue, he is not an industry darling like many other writers.

At best he could offer recommendation for writers and artists, but he was never in a position of control,  Not the equivalent of a producer like the others seen in #metoo.
Not a reciprocal arrangement where any of the womens careers depended on his opinion of them. This is not #metoo.

Seperately, if the allegations are true, what im seeing is a man who exploited his fanbase  cashing in on their admiration of him, but many of whom also happen to be his social group. It sucks if he did that, and sad they were devastated when he dropped them and moved on.
That would be disgusting and selfish and would lower my opinion of him as a person

I will wait and see what other stories come out and I want his side of the story too before I have an opinion one way or another

quick question, what the fuck do any of these women have to gain by lying about their experiences? because if you, admins on a forum that takes pride in rational thought, are going to fucking say well it's not the same because he doesn't have as much pull and therefore it's all possibly bullshit and i'll wait until ONE PERSON says something against ALL THESE WOMEN HE FUCKING VICTIMIZED, then you can damn well be sure the rabid fanboys are coming out of the woodwork to make rape threats, death threats, offer mockery and victim blaming, tell them to kill themselves, call them liars, and who knows what else. how fucking dare you fall into this trap of "i love this person's work so i don't want to believe it and i'll let his one privileged voice make an attempt to Make It Better somehow" when there are possibly dozens of victimized and traumatized young women coming forward in a culture where victim shaming and blaming is still disgustingly rampant? how dare you, when you're so much better than that? it doesn't matter that he's not as rich or famous or influential as movie producers or politicians, he still used his platform to take advantage of people, it's still Not Oh-Fucking-Kay.

No. Im going to be blunt about this:
I do not suppport him
I do not support them
I am not dismissing what they have said
I will not be making a judgement call on a person because of a twitter post
I will not be making a judgement of a person without hearing thier side of the story.

If that seems callous, tough. I expect more before I'm going to write someone off. I will not support an accusation without evidence or a chance for  both parties to respond, nor do I ignore it.

If you are asking for more you are asking for a leap of faith. Faith is something I have short supply of

What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Elder Iptuous

  • Professional Discordian and Physiognomist
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 5735
  • terribly tedious
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1306 on: June 18, 2020, 02:59:59 pm »
Sentence first; verdict afterwards!

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1307 on: June 18, 2020, 03:05:52 pm »
Sentence first; verdict afterwards!

All ways are Tumblr's ways.  :lol:
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Faust

  • Tyrannical Overlord
  • Deserved It
  • *
  • Posts: 10258
  • The Greasy Strangler
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1308 on: June 18, 2020, 04:00:06 pm »
As someone I admire a lot I am going to wait for his statement on this.

A writer being a sleeze with his fans is gross, and its possible. but some of the things being said on that thread dont add up.
While Ellis was a literary artistic success in the field of comic books he could never "make or break an aspiring career", he has made a modest living on his career as a writer but...
Just from reading around he has operated on the commercial perifery of the comics industry with a lot of indy work, the big two have always maintained contracts which mean the writer does not get rich, the first time that has happened for him ironically (despite an awesome catalogue of work) is when he made castlevenia a year ago.
He was not a publisher, and has had run ins with publishers like hellblazer ending because of the school shooting issue, he is not an industry darling like many other writers.

At best he could offer recommendation for writers and artists, but he was never in a position of control,  Not the equivalent of a producer like the others seen in #metoo.
Not a reciprocal arrangement where any of the womens careers depended on his opinion of them. This is not #metoo.

Seperately, if the allegations are true, what im seeing is a man who exploited his fanbase  cashing in on their admiration of him, but many of whom also happen to be his social group. It sucks if he did that, and sad they were devastated when he dropped them and moved on.
That would be disgusting and selfish and would lower my opinion of him as a person

I will wait and see what other stories come out and I want his side of the story too before I have an opinion one way or another

quick question, what the fuck do any of these women have to gain by lying about their experiences? because if you, admins on a forum that takes pride in rational thought, are going to fucking say well it's not the same because he doesn't have as much pull and therefore it's all possibly bullshit and i'll wait until ONE PERSON says something against ALL THESE WOMEN HE FUCKING VICTIMIZED, then you can damn well be sure the rabid fanboys are coming out of the woodwork to make rape threats, death threats, offer mockery and victim blaming, tell them to kill themselves, call them liars, and who knows what else. how fucking dare you fall into this trap of "i love this person's work so i don't want to believe it and i'll let his one privileged voice make an attempt to Make It Better somehow" when there are possibly dozens of victimized and traumatized young women coming forward in a culture where victim shaming and blaming is still disgustingly rampant? how dare you, when you're so much better than that? it doesn't matter that he's not as rich or famous or influential as movie producers or politicians, he still used his platform to take advantage of people, it's still Not Oh-Fucking-Kay.

No. Im going to be blunt about this:
I do not suppport him
I do not support them
I am not dismissing what they have said
I will not be making a judgement call on a person because of a twitter post
I will not be making a judgement of a person without hearing thier side of the story.

If that seems callous, tough. I expect more before I'm going to write someone off. I will not support an accusation without evidence or a chance for  both parties to respond, nor do I ignore it.

If you are asking for more you are asking for a leap of faith. Faith is something I have short supply of

What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.

That's what I'm not liking about this, I said I reserve judgement, and question "Coercive control", because he was not in a position of control for them, not an employer, at best someone who could plug theirs stuff to his audience. I'm open to the information on it.

There are people who I would be interested in their opinion on it like zoetica (an artist I was following who did show up in warrens stuff) who have responded since substantiating some of what is being said, I'd value her opinion a lot. She had not responded... 15 hours ago, when I said I will wait and see.

The stories I am reading about is how he has been incredibly manipulative, and that he has been dating his fans (which is gross). I'm what to see what they describe as coercive control, and if he abused his position as a writer to do that, or was he just a manipulative boyfriend.

I'm not going to engage in what Freeky describes as victim blaming, and I am sure comic fans are causing these girls unfair abuse.  I am not one of those fans, but I am holding them to a standard to be clear as to what happened, because there is hyperbole in the descriptions: as one person points out the description of preying on a naive doe eyed young girl, who was 27 when she alleges he led her on, manipulated her and then dropped her all of a sudden.

It's an emotional issue, but I react badly to being told I have to take a side prior to at least hearing from the person who's personal and career development I've followed for the last 15 years.
And it may be my monkey reflex, but being told to think a certain way makes me want to throw my toys out of the pram.

Sleepless nights at the chateau

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1309 on: June 18, 2020, 04:04:30 pm »


The stories I am reading about is how he has been incredibly manipulative, and that he has been dating his fans (which is gross). I'm what to see what they describe as coercive control, and if he abused his position as a writer to do that, or was he just a manipulative boyfriend.

While I'm not disagreeing with that statement, why is a writer dating a fan in and of itself gross?

Quote
I'm not going to engage in what Freeky describes as victim blaming, and I am sure comic fans are causing these girls unfair abuse.  I am not one of those fans, but I am holding them to a standard to be clear as to what happened, because there is hyperbole in the descriptions: as one person points out the description of preying on a naive doe eyed young girl, who was 27 when she alleges he led her on, manipulated her and then dropped her all of a sudden.

Freeky has memorized the formula.  She even went into "performative allies" as if she is anything ELSE (while a the exact same time hijacking a conversation about Altered's position to talk about how "fragile" she (freeky) is.), so there is no need to justify your response to me; I agree with you.  To there's that.

Quote
It's an emotional issue, but I react badly to being told I have to take a side prior to at least hearing from the person who's personal and career development I've followed for the last 15 years.
And it may be my monkey reflex, but being told to think a certain way makes me want to throw my toys out of the pram.

Exactly.  Precisely.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Nyborj the Priest

  • Rook of Eris
  • Known & Noted
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • If you meet the Goddess on the road, high-five her
    • View Profile
    • my games
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1310 on: June 18, 2020, 04:04:47 pm »
What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.

Nobody in this forum, as far as I know, has the authority to convict anyone.
I make silly games: http://versificator.itch.io

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1311 on: June 18, 2020, 04:07:21 pm »
What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.

Nobody in this forum, as far as I know, has the authority to convict anyone.

You're correct.  So I'm just going to be one of those non-performative non-allies by assuming he's innocent until his guilt is proven.

I'm an asshole that way.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1312 on: June 18, 2020, 04:09:28 pm »
Here's a bit on it.  The word coercion is thrown around as an accusation, but the details seem to indicate that he was just an Alty-style user.  Which ain't good, assuming it's true, but it's not Bill Cosby level or even close to it.

http://www.multiversitycomics.com/news/warren-ellis-allegations/
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Faust

  • Tyrannical Overlord
  • Deserved It
  • *
  • Posts: 10258
  • The Greasy Strangler
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1313 on: June 18, 2020, 04:16:30 pm »
The stories I am reading about is how he has been incredibly manipulative, and that he has been dating his fans (which is gross). I'm what to see what they describe as coercive control, and if he abused his position as a writer to do that, or was he just a manipulative boyfriend.

While I'm not disagreeing with that statement, why is a writer dating a fan in and of itself gross?

Oh its not a problem if the motives are ok, its depends if the motivation is genuine romance, or looking to bang and discard them. The latter is gross cult leader stuff.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

  • Tyrannical Overlord
  • Deserved It
  • *
  • Posts: 10258
  • The Greasy Strangler
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1314 on: June 18, 2020, 04:23:24 pm »
What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.

Nobody in this forum, as far as I know, has the authority to convict anyone.
No, just shun, which is perfectly fine, with good reason. But it's polite to at least want to hear from the person who the accusations are being leveled at.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

  • Tyrannical Overlord
  • Deserved It
  • *
  • Posts: 10258
  • The Greasy Strangler
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1315 on: June 18, 2020, 04:48:49 pm »
quick question, what the fuck do any of these women have to gain by lying about their experiences?
Not in the scope of what I have said, I have not suggested they have lied about their experiences.

Quote
because if you, admins on a forum that takes pride in rational thought,
I am a member of that forum with my own opinions, being an admin has no bearing in the conversation, furthermore I have gone out of my way to neglect any admin tasks duties or responsibilities.

Quote
are going to fucking say well it's not the same because he doesn't have as much pull and therefore it's all possibly bullshit and i'll wait until ONE PERSON says something against ALL THESE WOMEN HE FUCKING VICTIMIZED
Yes, generally waiting for someone who is accused of something to at least respond is the right thing to do, ESPECIALLY IF HE HAS VICTIMIZED PEOPLE, as it legitimises their complaints.

Quote
then you can damn well be sure the rabid fanboys are coming out of the woodwork to make rape threats, death threats, offer mockery and victim blaming, tell them to kill themselves, call them liars, and who knows what else.
For sure, gamergate and comic fans will have a big overlap. They are vicious little shits, but that doesn't automatically mean those making the accusations are right by virtue of the abuse they received from these. I am interested in what they have to say, as much if not more so than the person they are accusing. I probably care about their opinion of Ellis far more than the fan boys you are describing.
Quote
how fucking dare you fall into this trap of "i love this person's work so i don't want to believe it and i'll let his one privileged voice make an attempt to Make It Better somehow" when there are possibly dozens of victimized and traumatized young women coming forward in a culture where victim shaming and blaming is still disgustingly rampant?
How the fuck dare you assume that by wanting to hear that persons side of the story I am going to absolve them of this If I think they did. Furthermore how the fuck dare you put a culture of victim shaming and blaming on my doorstep, I am not responsible for other peoples shameful behavior, I didn't build this dumpster fire of a world, all I do is live in it.

Quote
how dare you, when you're so much better than that? it doesn't matter that he's not as rich or famous or influential as movie producers or politicians, he still used his platform to take advantage of people, it's still Not Oh-Fucking-Kay.
And that is the crux of the matter, I want clarity and a response on what is the accusation is. Because I see "coercion and control" and "manipulation and exploitation" are the accusations here. It is what I want to know more about: The first is reprehensible and part of the systemic problem and leveled at the writer, the latter is shitty behavior and leveled at the person.
Now it remains to be seen if it is the former, latter, both, whatever.
But my point was: if it is the former then specifics of what those are should be clear, because he was not in the direct path of their professional development, he was a writer not a decision maker. In contrast Weinstein wielded coercive control to make and break unfortunate women who crossed his path.
If the same claim is at Ellis if it were being coerced for plugs on his email or blog, then they got short changed. I am not saying the same thing about Manipulation and exploitation though, and based on what I am reading, from other people I've trusted for a long time, that part is probable.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 04:51:43 pm by Faust »
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Cramulus

  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 22254
    • View Profile
    • Cramul.us
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1316 on: June 18, 2020, 04:59:47 pm »
my stance is to trust, but verify

by default, I believe women when they come forward with these things

maybe more data will change my mind and convince me that this is a baseless hit-job,
but I'll wait for that to appear before considering it


I agree that 'having sex with fans' isn't a problem in of itself (and if it is, the music industry is fucked), but if they're much younger than him? and if he's enticing them by giving them career advice and access to industry people? And then abandoning them as soon as he gets off? that's gross.

from what we know so far -- on the #metoo scale, I'd put this somewhere in the ballpark of Louis CK. Nobody's consent was violated, but he's left a long trail of sad, confused women who feel like he used his status and rep to take advantage of them.


the real clincher?

Will Ellis say "these women are all lying for personal gain"
or "I was an asshole, I'm sorry, and I'd like to be better"    ?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 05:16:07 pm by Cramulus »

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1317 on: June 18, 2020, 06:12:42 pm »
Quote

because if you, admins on a forum that takes pride in rational thought,
I am a member of that forum with my own opinions, being an admin has no bearing in the conversation, furthermore I have gone out of my way to neglect any admin tasks duties or responsibilities.


Now she can't fite teh power   :cry:
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

Doktor Howl

  • Hostile Technology Geek
  • One-Armed Jizz Moppers
  • Deserved It
  • **
  • Posts: 36167
  • Horrible Bastard
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1318 on: June 18, 2020, 06:15:51 pm »
my stance is to trust, but verify

by default, I believe women when they come forward with these things

maybe more data will change my mind and convince me that this is a baseless hit-job,
but I'll wait for that to appear before considering it


I agree that 'having sex with fans' isn't a problem in of itself (and if it is, the music industry is fucked), but if they're much younger than him? and if he's enticing them by giving them career advice and access to industry people? And then abandoning them as soon as he gets off? that's gross.

from what we know so far -- on the #metoo scale, I'd put this somewhere in the ballpark of Louis CK. Nobody's consent was violated, but he's left a long trail of sad, confused women who feel like he used his status and rep to take advantage of them.


the real clincher?

Will Ellis say "these women are all lying for personal gain"
or "I was an asshole, I'm sorry, and I'd like to be better"    ?

Knowing Warren Ellis, his response will not resemble either of those two possibilities.

My money is either on

"Go fuck yourself" and

"I am in fact an asshole and have never promised otherwise."

He still wants a career, so it's probably the second.
"It's how we roll,
Dunning-Krueger out of control
(Girl, look at that gross margin)"
- TGRR

Evil doesn't work without good people. Good people will do the most repugnant, nasty shit for what they think are "the right reasons"

The Johnny

  • did nots
  • Deserved It
  • ****
  • Posts: 4399
    • View Profile
Re: Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify
« Reply #1319 on: June 18, 2020, 07:43:41 pm »
What is being asked demanded is a conviction without trial.

Nobody in this forum, as far as I know, has the authority to convict anyone.

Yes we do, you don't know us. By the way, "Discordia is not nice", just not in the 4-chan sense.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner