Natural Patriotism

[Zurtok Khan]

The only patriotics any more are the radicals.  Or, at least that's what they would like you to think.  If you don't support President Bush, then you're not patriotic.  If you don't believe in the so-called American Ideals(TM), then you're not patriotic.  And, of course, if you're not patriotic, then you're not a Real American(TM).

America and this board have alot in common.  We are a melting pot of many different belief structures, and cultures, and above all people.  Of course, we're a small enough group that we can manage with minimal effort.  And, we're an intelligent enough group that we can each manage ourselves.  Sure, we get the occasional "i R 4 133t DiCoRdIaN u R P0sErzzz!"  But, we're smart enough to ignore it.  We're made up of a group of people that is mature enough to recognize differences, and handle them.  America is not.

We constantly mock the people that say "You are not real Discordians because I am chaos and you are not!"  Which, is neither here nor they.  These people spur us to greater hieghts, trying to get away from them.  They are messangers of Eris trying to show us a mirror of ourselves, so that we can look and laugh.  We don't always pay attention, but that's why she has to kick us in the shorts from time to time.

Real Americans(TM) want everyone to believe that they are the true holders of the American Spirit (whatever that is, I'm sure even the spouters of such drivel have no idea).  The Real Americans(TM) want everyone to believe in *ahem* good Christian values, like bigotry, violence, and ignorance.  They come in the guise of Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and all the other political parties.  They want to form the country into what they want, rather then allowing people to live their fucking lives.  Everyone has an agenda.  Everyone is out to get you.  Even me.  Especially me.

It is natural to feel Patriotism, but I do not feel that the syndicated piles of bullshit thrown in our face by everyone from Bush to O'Reily to Anne Culter to Billy Graham to Jessy Jackson is worth anything more then fertilizer.  This is not patriotism, it is emotional manipulation.  It is there only to gain control.  "If we can't have everyone on Ritalin, then we shall make them certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are correct, and any questions asked are to be subdued immediately.  We are their opinion, they cannot exist without depending on us," is the line of every Politician.  Poltics requires that one believe that statement.  That is the inevitablity of 1984 and Brave New World.

Patriotism is natural.  If the group in which one belongs prospers, then the individuals prosper.  It is a natural economic tendancy in which we all engage, it's hardwired into us.  You can call them value judgements, or you can call them survival judgements, or whatever word you'd like to substitute.  Of course, for anyone to prosper, then someone, somewhere has to suffer.  But, the Politicians won't remind you of that.  Stalin, afterall, was right.  "One death is a trajedy, one million deaths in a statistic."

We are at a point wherein our natural tendancies are in conflict.  We see all around us the danger of countinueing headlong done this path that we have been pointing down for a long time.  I'd like to blame the Shrubery, but if Aldous Huxley could see it so long ago, we can't give him all the credit.  We can merely credit him with pushing it harder down that path.  Clinton was a delicate lull, and if we'd been presented with a good strong choice for President (fat chance of that ever happening again), we may have had a chance to tip the scales back for a time.  We see the danger here, but at the same time we are caught in the net.  Sink or swim.

But, Eris is telling me it's time to be done now.  She's left the building, off for an Elvis convention (she's going to be a fat Elvis because it is deliciously fun).  She does have one last thing to say - If the ship's sinking you might as well a whole lotta fun before it goes.

[Great Teacher Largo]

Patriotism isn't a problem.  It's carrying it too far that is the problem.  Nationalism is the problem.  As human beings we are naturally inclined to identify with a group.  At worst, we identify we a horribly small group -- say, a gang, or our 'race' -- and react violently to everything else.  At the very best, we can extend this identification to the whole of life, not just humanity.  Although humanity is a good stepping stone.

I would also put it forward for consideration that this board and America have far much more common than maybe you intended to show.  Or maybe I just need to look a bit more deeply at one particular sentance and the meaning you are attempting to use it towards.  I would say that this board is much like America -- there are some of us who are mature adults who are able to ignore that which we do not wish to see and do not violently react to everything we dislike.  But, much like America, there are people who do just the opposite.  However, like America, I do have hope.  Tyrants are always overthrown, and the old guards of hatred and intolerance always fall.

[Cain]

Having been raised in two countries, and being of dual nationality myself, I have always found patriotism to be an odd thing.  Countries are made, by the process of history.  Your birth in any locale is chance. Hell, until the Peace of Westphalia, nationalism didnt realy exist at all, in Europe at least.  Its part of social cohesion, an ideal of unity, and so ultimately of social control.

That said, I view a patriot as someone who identifies with the core values of their nation. This generally means the betterment of their own people, freedom, liberty, justice and all those other nice things valued by the majority of humanity.  This also means disagreeing when your country is wrong, or runs contary to said core values.

Being a dittohead is not patriotic.  Blindly parrotting the leaderships current line (subject to change due to elections or circumstance) is not patriotism.  That's blind obedience.  Such ideas of "patriotism" should have died half a century ago.

Then again, what do I know?  As far as I am concerned, borders are errected to be crossed and I have more alleigance to my ideals than my passport.  Countries live and die, new ones appear all the time.  Take someon born in 1930 and compare world maps throughout their life to the present.  Constant change.  I'm too much of a historian to put faith in any territory.

[Great Teacher Largo]

Personally, it's very easy for me to be patriotic, because I don't have a homeland: more correctly, the land to which I claim allegiance to does not exist as a physical place.

But it's true.  Dittoheads and those who blindly support someone, have no place in the Democratic process.  They, and other cow-herd mentality individuals, are the reason democracy sucks, and in practice is impractical.  Which is probably why the United States is a Socialist Representative Republic.

[agent compassion]

"Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart
My land's only borders lie around my heart"

-"Anthem"

[LMNO]

Dittoheads and those who blindly support someone, have no place in the Democratic process.

But we weren't talking about Democracy, we were talking about Patriotism.

And it often seems that Patriotism almost always requires a bit of non-thinking, or blind support.

Advocating Democracy, on the other hand, seems to take a lot of hard work.  I would venture to say that being pro democracy requires advocating for people you disagree with.  Much like the ACLU and the KKK.

[Arcane Synonym]

Dittoheads and those who blindly support someone, have no place in the Democratic process.

But we weren't talking about Democracy, we were talking about Patriotism.

And it often seems that Patriotism almost always requires a bit of non-thinking, or blind support.

Advocating Democracy, on the other hand, seems to take a lot of hard work.  I would venture to say that being pro democracy requires advocating for people you disagree with.  Much like the ACLU and the KKK.

Democracy is not now, nor has it ever been, anymore real than the thought of a Unicorn.

The Question is not wether or not the thought of a unicorn is Real, but wether or not it has any bearing outside the imagination. Democracy is merely the Chrasmatic putting on a sideshow while The ugly ducklings hatch Dastardly deeds, that have as much to do with Peace and Justice, as  Industrialism has with environmentalism, and in Equal aspects.

There is no problem with patriotism, only with those who question and do not act. None who stand here are innocent, and all of you Windbags with Cajones the size of peas. Especially those among you talk about doing things. When you finally Do do something, i am sure we will all hear about it on the news. If it is worthwhile.

[Great Teacher Largo]

Dittoheads and those who blindly support someone, have no place in the Democratic process.

But we weren't talking about Democracy, we were talking about Patriotism.

And it often seems that Patriotism almost always requires a bit of non-thinking, or blind support.

Advocating Democracy, on the other hand, seems to take a lot of hard work.  I would venture to say that being pro democracy requires advocating for people you disagree with.  Much like the ACLU and the KKK.

Democracy is not now, nor has it ever been, anymore real than the thought of a Unicorn.

The Question is not wether or not the thought of a unicorn is Real, but wether or not it has any bearing outside the imagination. Democracy is merely the Chrasmatic putting on a sideshow while The ugly ducklings hatch Dastardly deeds, that have as much to do with Peace and Justice, as  Industrialism has with environmentalism, and in Equal aspects.

There is no problem with patriotism, only with those who question and do not act. None who stand here are innocent, and all of you Windbags with Cajones the size of peas. Especially those among you talk about doing things. When you finally Do do something, i am sure we will all hear about it on the news. If it is worthwhile.

You really should get that fluid drained out of your eye, as I think it's putting pressure on your optic nerve which is affecting your brain.

Firstly, in re: Unicorns, Anything that Cannot Be Imagined Does Not Exist.  Anything that Can Be Imagined Does Exist.  Thus, it follows that Unicorns exist.

And there is a problem with Patriotism.  There is a problem with any narrow sense of group belonging.  While all humans are disposed towards group identification, due to nature, via nurture we can change the scope of the identification.  Identifying solely with a country (which is a legal fiction that anyone with a real glimpse as to what is going on does not care for) tends to breed a 'Just Screw Them' attitude towards other people.

One should devote one's self to a set of ideals, not to an earthly manefestation of those ideals (because, like with everything else mortal, things change.)  Devotion to Liberty, Justice, Equality, these things will always be the same, no matter what group happens to be running the country at the time.

Also, Democracy is a very real thing.  It's called 'Mob Rule.'

The United States is not, nor has it ever been, a Democracy.  A Democracy is 51 people saying we will wear red shirts, and the other 49 pointing out that Red Shirts always die first, and then the 51 people kill the other 49 and say, "Now who's wearing red shirts?"

The from of Government that the United States is classified as is a Representative Republic, and it has Socialist Leanings.  I recall one debate with a man who was raililng against Socialism, and I pointed out that State-Run Police, Fire, and Emergency Services are socialist practicies.  I asked him if he was looking forward to Social Security, and pointed out that the Social in Social Security is the same as the Social in Socialist.

The Country is not a Democracy.

Representative Republic.  Thank youi.

[Arcane Synonym]

Dittoheads and those who blindly support someone, have no place in the Democratic process.

But we weren't talking about Democracy, we were talking about Patriotism.

And it often seems that Patriotism almost always requires a bit of non-thinking, or blind support.

Advocating Democracy, on the other hand, seems to take a lot of hard work.  I would venture to say that being pro democracy requires advocating for people you disagree with.  Much like the ACLU and the KKK.

Democracy is not now, nor has it ever been, anymore real than the thought of a Unicorn.

The Question is not wether or not the thought of a unicorn is Real, but wether or not it has any bearing outside the imagination. Democracy is merely the Chrasmatic putting on a sideshow while The ugly ducklings hatch Dastardly deeds, that have as much to do with Peace and Justice, as  Industrialism has with environmentalism, and in Equal aspects.

There is no problem with patriotism, only with those who question and do not act. None who stand here are innocent, and all of you Windbags with Cajones the size of peas. Especially those among you talk about doing things. When you finally Do do something, i am sure we will all hear about it on the news. If it is worthwhile.

You really should get that fluid drained out of your eye, as I think it's putting pressure on your optic nerve which is affecting your brain.

Firstly, in re: Unicorns, Anything that Cannot Be Imagined Does Not Exist.  Anything that Can Be Imagined Does Exist.  Thus, it follows that Unicorns exist.

And there is a problem with Patriotism.  There is a problem with any narrow sense of group belonging.  While all humans are disposed towards group identification, due to nature, via nurture we can change the scope of the identification.  Identifying solely with a country (which is a legal fiction that anyone with a real glimpse as to what is going on does not care for) tends to breed a 'Just Screw Them' attitude towards other people.

One should devote one's self to a set of ideals, not to an earthly manefestation of those ideals (because, like with everything else mortal, things change.)  Devotion to Liberty, Justice, Equality, these things will always be the same, no matter what group happens to be running the country at the time.

Also, Democracy is a very real thing.  It's called 'Mob Rule.'

The United States is not, nor has it ever been, a Democracy.  A Democracy is 51 people saying we will wear red shirts, and the other 49 pointing out that Red Shirts always die first, and then the 51 people kill the other 49 and say, "Now who's wearing red shirts?"

The from of Government that the United States is classified as is a Representative Republic, and it has Socialist Leanings.  I recall one debate with a man who was raililng against Socialism, and I pointed out that State-Run Police, Fire, and Emergency Services are socialist practicies.  I asked him if he was looking forward to Social Security, and pointed out that the Social in Social Security is the same as the Social in Socialist.

The Country is not a Democracy.

Representative Republic.  Thank youi.

...

You may wish to reread what I wrote, and perhaps reconsider your answer, since I was not debating the existence of unicorns, nor the thoughts thereof, I was debating the Effectuality they had upon their environemnt, Outside the manifestation of the mind.


The rest of your reply is incongruent with any sort of reality. "Social is the same word in socialist" ...?????? Does this mean that a Socialite is actually a Communist of some sort? Or that Democrats support Democracy more than Republicans?

Of course it does. Red is equivalent to Blue.

[Great Teacher Largo]

You're doing that thing where you willfully (or maybe not -- I could be not explaining myself correct because, duh, language isn't perfect for communicating ideas, or more likely, you're a stupid troll ) misconstrue what I say.  And as to your statement that I misinterpereted what you said, I would respond with, "Learn to express yourself better, 'cause them's the bumps."

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

Comes from watching fucking anime too much.

[Great Teacher Largo]

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

Comes from watching fucking anime too much.

What is your major malfunction, Roger?  Someone forget to take their "I'm an Adult therefore I don't act like a Child" pills this morning?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

Comes from watching fucking anime too much.

What is your major malfunction, Roger?  Someone forget to take their "I'm an Adult therefore I don't act like a Child" pills this morning?

No, not really.  I just plan to make this board as much fun for you, as you have made it for myself and a few others.

[Great Teacher Largo]

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

Comes from watching fucking anime too much.

What is your major malfunction, Roger?  Someone forget to take their "I'm an Adult therefore I don't act like a Child" pills this morning?

No, not really.  I just plan to make this board as much fun for you, as you have made it for myself and a few others.

If that's your game, I will give much better than I get, of that I can assure you.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, that avatar of yours is a picture of one of those diseases where by the eye fills up with milky fluid, right?

Comes from watching fucking anime too much.

What is your major malfunction, Roger?  Someone forget to take their "I'm an Adult therefore I don't act like a Child" pills this morning?

No, not really.  I just plan to make this board as much fun for you, as you have made it for myself and a few others.

If that's your game, I will give much better than I get, of that I can assure you.

I doubt that.  I don't plan to post much, except to snipe at you, etc, so I don't see how you can accomplish much.