Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 02:28:19 pm

Title: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 02:28:19 pm
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=219284

Quote

Ok, I've been asked enough times, here it is -- my view and analysis of "Bitcoin", which I have taken to calling "Bitcon."  That probably deserves an explanation....

Let's first define what an ideal currency would be.  Currency serves two purposes; it allows me to express a preference for one good or service over another, and it allows me to express time preference (that is, when I acquire or consume a good or service.)

All currencies must satisfy at least one of these purposes, and an ideal currency must satisfy both.

The good and service preference is what allows you to, possessing a dozen eggs from a chicken, to obtain a gallon of gasoline without finding someone who has gasoline and wants eggs.  That is, it is the ability to use the currency as a fungible intermediary between two goods and services, one of which you possess and the other of which you desire.  Without this function in an economy you have only barter and poor specialization, with it you have excellent specialization and a much-more-diverse economic picture.

Time preference is the ability to choose to perform a service or sell a good now but obtain and consume the other part of the transaction for yourself later.  With a perfect currency time preference has no finger on the scale; that is, the currency neither appreciates or depreciates over time against a reasonably-constant basket of goods and services.  Since technological advancement tends to make it easier to produce "things" in real terms, a perfect currency reflects this and makes time preference inherently valuable.  This in turn forces the producers of goods and services to innovate in order to attract your economic surplus from under the mattress and into their cash registers, since not spending your economic surplus is in fact to your advantage.  Today's fiat currencies intentionally violate the natural time preference of increasing productivity, but even yesterday's metallic standards did a poor job of representing it.  The problem here is the State, which always seeks (like most people) to get something for nothing and what it winds up doing instead (since getting something for nothing is impossible) is effectively stealing.

Unfortunately Bitcoin, as I will explain in detail, also does a*****-poor job of satisfying either of these requirements.

But before I get to that, I want to first demolish the argument for using it that is going around in various circles and media these days -- the idea that it is stateless (that is, without a State Sponsor) and this is somehow good, in that it allows the user to evade the tentacles of the State.

This is utterly false and, if you're foolish enough to believe it and are big enough to be worth making an example of you will eventually wind up in prison -- with certainty.

All currencies require some means of validation.  That is, when you and I wish to transact using a currency I have to be able to know that you're not presenting a counterfeit token to me.  Gold became popular because it was fairly difficult to "create" (you had to find it and dig it out of the ground) and it was reasonably-easy to validate.  The mass and volume were easily verified and other materials of similar mass and volume had wildly-disparate physical properties and could be easily distinguished.  (The recent claims of "salted" bars with tungsten notwithstanding!)  With only a scale and a means of measuring displacement of a known thing (e.g. water) I could be reasonably-certain that if you presented to me something claiming to be one ounce of gold that it in fact was one ounce of gold.  It therefore was "self-validating."

Likewise, dollar bills are reasonably self-validating.  I can observe one and if it appears to be a dollar bill, feels correct and has the security features I can be reasonably certain that it is not counterfeit.  The Secret Service can determine with a fairly high degree of certainty (and very quickly too) whether a particular bill is real as they can verify the serial number was actually issued and that a bunch of the same serial numbers are not being seen in circulation, but for ordinary commerce this is not necessary; the bill itself has enough unique features so for ordinary purposes it is self-validating.

Bitcoin and other digital currencies are different -- they're just a string of bits.  To validate a coin, therefore, I must know that the one you are presenting to me is unique, that it wasn't just made up by you at random but in fact is a valid coin (you were either transferred it and the chain is intact or you personally "mined" it, a computationally-expensive thing to do), and has not been spent by you somewhere else first. 

In order to do this the system that implements the currency must maintain and expose a full and complete record of each and every transfer from the origin of that particular coin forward!

This is the only way I can know that nobody else was presented the same token before I was, and that the last transfer made of that token was to you.  I must know with certainty that both of these conditions are true, and then to be able to spend that coin I must make the fact that I hold it and you transferred it to me known to everyone as well.

Now consider the typical clandestine transaction -- Joe wishes to buy a bag of pot, which happens to be illegal to transact.  He has Bitcoins to buy the pot with.  He finds a dealer willing to sell the pot despite it being illegal to do so, and transfers the coins to the dealer.  The dealer must verify the block chain of the coins to insure that he is not being given coins that were already spent on gasoline or that Joe didn't counterfeit them, and then he transfers the pot to Joe.  There is now an indelible and permanent record of the transfer of funds and that record will never go away.

This creates several problems for both Joe and the dealer.  The dealer can (and might) take steps such as using "throw-away" wallets to try to unlink the transfer from his person, but that's dangerous.  In all jurisdictions "structuring" transactions to evade money laundering or reporting constraints is a separate and unique crime and usually is a felony.  Therefore, the very act of trying to split up transactions or use of "throw-away" wallets in and of itself is likely to be ruled a crime, leaving any party doing that exposed to separate and distinct criminal charges (along with whatever else they can bust you for.)

Second, due to the indelible nature of the records you're exposed for much longer that with traditional currencies to the risk of a bust and in many cases you might be exposed for the rest of your life.  In particular if there is a tax evasion issue that arises you're in big trouble because there is no statute of limitations on willful non-reporting of taxes in the United States, along with many other jurisdictions.  Since the records never go away your exposure, once you engage in a transaction that leads to liability, is permanent.

Third, because Bitcoin is not state-linked and thus fluctuates in value there is an FX tax issue.  Let's say you "buy" Bitcoins (whether for cash or in exchange for a good or service you provide) at a time when they have a "value" of $5 each against the US dollar.  You spend them when they have a "value" of $20 each.  You have a capital gain of $15.  At the time of the sale you have a tax liability too, and I'm willing to bet you didn't keep track of it or report it.  That liability never goes away as it was wilfully evaded and yet the ability to track the transaction never goes away either!

Worse, most jurisdictions only permit the taking of a capital loss against other gains, and not against ordinary income taxes.  This really sucks because it's a "heads you pay tax, tails you get screwed" situation. This is the inherent problem that gold and other commodities have as "inflation hedges"; the government always denominates its taxes in nominal dollars, not inflation-adjusted ones.  The only currency against which there is no FX tax exposure is the one the government you live under uses and denominates its taxes in.  That is why the government's issued currency will always be the preferred medium of exchange irrespective of all other competing currencies.

Incidentally, all of this exposure which you take with Bitcoin is very unlike transacting a bag of pot for a $100 bill -- or a gold coin.  Unless you're caught pretty much "in the act" once the pot is smoked and the dealer spends the $100 the odds of an ex-post-facto investigation being able to disclose what happened and tie you to the event fades to near-zero. 

This never happens with a Bitcoin transaction -- ever.

If that dealer is caught some time later, but still within the statute of limitations for the original offense, you could get tagged.  And if the statute of limitations has expired you're still not in the clear if you had a capital gain on the transaction.

There isn't any way to avoid these facts -- they're structural in all digital currencies.  And they don't just apply to buying or selling drugs -- they apply to any act that is intended to evade a government's currency or transaction controls.  The very thing that makes Bitcoin work, the irrefutable knowledge that a coin is "good" predicated on digital cryptography, is the noose that will go around your neck at the most-inappropriate time.

Those who are using Bitcoin as a means to try to foil currency controls or state prohibitions on certain transactions are asking for a criminal indictment not only for the original evasion act itself but also the possibility of a money-laundering indictment on top of it, and the proof necessary to hang you in a court of law is inherently present in the design of the currency system!

Now let's talk about the other problems generally with all such currency systems in terms of an ideal currency and how Bitcoin stacks up.

First, the ability to use Bitcoin to express good and service preference.

Here the fundamental problem of wide acceptance comes into view.  This is the problem that the proponents of the system are most-able to address through various promotional activities.  Unfortunately it also leads to deception -- either by omission or commission -- of the flaw just discussed.  To the extent that the popularity of the currency is driven by a desire to "escape" state control promotion of that currency on those grounds when in fact you are more likely to get caught (and irrefutably so!) than using conventional banknotes is an active fraud perpetrated upon those who are insufficiently aware of how a cryptocurrency works.

Cryptocurrencies have a secondary problem in that because they are not self-validating there is a time delay between your proposed transaction using a given token and when you can know that the token is valid.  Bitcoin typically takes a few minutes (about 10) to gain reasonable certainty that a given token is good, but quite a bit longer (an hour or so) to know with reasonable certainty that it is good.  That is, it is computationally reasonable to believe after 10 minutes or so that the chain integrity you are relying on is good.  It approaches computational impracticality after about an hour that the chain is invalid.

This is not a problem where ordering of a good or service and fulfillment is separated by a reasonable amount of time, but for "point of transaction" situations it is a very serious problem.  If you wish to fill up your tank with gasoline, for example, few people are going to be willing to wait for 10 minutes, say much less an hour, before being permitted to pump the gas -- or drive off with it.  This makes such a currency severely handicapped for general transaction use in an economy, and that in turn damages goods and service preference -- the ability to use it to exchange one good or service for another.  What's worse is that as the volume of transactions and the widespread acceptance rises so does the value of someone tampering with the block chain and as such the amount of time you must wait to be reasonably secure against that risk goes up rather than down.

Then there is what I consider to be Bitcoin's fatal flaw -- the inherent design and de-coupling of the currency from the obligation of sovereigns.  Yes, obligation -- not privilege.

Bitcoins are basically cryptographic "solutions."  The design is such that when the system was initialized it was reasonably easy to compute a new solution, and thus "mine" a coin.  As each coin is "mined" the next solution becomes more difficult.  The scale of difficulty was set up in such a fashion that it is computationally infeasable using known technology and that expected to be able to be developed in the foreseeable future to reach the maximum number of coins that can be in circulation.  Since each cryptographic solution is finite and singular, and each one gets progressively harder to discern, those who first initiated Bitcoin were rewarded with a large number of easily-mined coins for a very cheap "investment" while the computational difficulty of "extracting" each additional one goes up.

That means that if you were one of the early adopters you get paid through the difficulty of those who attempt to mine coins later!  That is, your value increases because the later person's expenditure of energy increases rather than through your own expenditure of energy.  If that sounds kind of like a pyramid scheme, it's because it is very similar to to how the "early adopters" in all pyramid schemes get a return -- your later and ever-increasing effort for each subsequent unit of return accrues far more to the early adopter than it does to you!

The other problem that a cryptocurrency has is that it possesses entropy. 

Entropy is simply the tendency toward disorder (that is, loss of value.)  A car, left out in the open, exhibits this as it rusts away.  Gold has very low entropy, in that it is almost-impossible to actually destroy it.  It does not oxidize or react with most other elements and as such virtually all of the gold ever dug out of the ground still exists as actual gold.

Fiat currencies, of course, have entropy in both directions because they can be emitted and withdrawn at will.  We'll get to that in a minute, and it's quite important to understand.

Bitcoin exhibits irreversible entropy.  A coin that is "lost", that is, which the current possessor loses control over either by physically losing their wallet or the key to it, can never be recovered.  That cryptographic sequence is effectively and permanently abandoned since there is no way for the entity who currently has possession of it to pass it on to someone else.  This is often touted as a feature in that it inevitably is deflationary, but whether that's good or bad remains to be seen.  It certainly is something that those who tout the currency think is good for the value of what they hold, but the irreversible loss of value can also easily lead people to abandon the use of the currency in which case its utility value to express goods and service preference is damaged, quite-possibly to the point of revulsion.

This is not true, incidentally, for something like a gold coin.  The coin can be lost or stolen but unless it's lost over the side of a boat at irretrievable depth it can be recovered and the person who recovers it can spend it.  What constitutes "irretrievable depth" has a great deal to do with exactly how many coins might be there too -- what's impractical for one coin is most-certainly not when the potential haul reaches into the thousands of pounds!

I mentioned above about fiat currencies being able to be issued and withdrawn.  There is often much hay made about the principle of seigniorage, which is the term for the "from thin air" creation of value that a state actor obtains in creating tokens of money.  Seigniorage is simply the difference in represented value between the cost of emitting the token (in the case of paper money, the paper, security features and ink) and the "value" represented in the market.  There is much outrage directed at the premise of fiat currency in this regard but nearly all of it is misplaced because people do not understand that in a just and proper currency system the benefit of seigniorage comes with the responsibility for it as well, and it is supposed to be bi-directional.

That is, in order for time preference to be neutrally expressed, less the natural deflationary tendency from productivity improvement, the government entity issuing currency gets the benefit of seigniorage when the economy is expanding.  But -- during times of economic contraction they also get the duty to withdraw currency (or credit) so as to maintain the same balance, as otherwise the consequence is inflation -- that is, a generalized rise in the price level and the destruction of the common person's purchasing power.

That this is honored in the breach rather than the observance does not change how these functions are supposed to work, any more than the fact that we have bank robbers means we shouldn't have banks.  This, fundamentally, is why currency schemes like Bitcoin will never replace a properly functioning national currency and are always at risk of becoming worthless without warning should such a currency system arise, even ignoring the potential for legal (or extra-legal) attack.

Simply put there is no obligation to go along with the privilege that the originators of a crypto-currency scheme have left for themselves -- the ability to profit without effort by the future efforts of others who engage in the mining of coins.

Those who argue that state actors creating currencies get the same privilege are correct, but those state actors also have the countervailing duty to withdraw that currency during economic contractions associated with their privilege, whether they properly discharge that duty or not.

For these reasons I do not now and never will support Bitcoin or its offshoots, nor will I accept and transact in it in commerce.  I prefer instead to effort toward political recognition of the duties that come with the privilege that is bestowed on a sovereign currency issuer in the hope of solving the underlying problem rather than sniveling in the corner trying to evade it.

The latter is, in my opinion, unworthy of my involvement.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 02:32:39 pm
Quote
The very thing that makes Bitcoin work, the irrefutable knowledge that a coin is "good" predicated on digital cryptography, is the noose that will go around your neck at the most-inappropriate time.

I wondered about this myself, when looking into Bitcoin a while ago.

Good to see someone else saying it.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 02:36:25 pm
Quote
The very thing that makes Bitcoin work, the irrefutable knowledge that a coin is "good" predicated on digital cryptography, is the noose that will go around your neck at the most-inappropriate time.

I wondered about this myself, when looking into Bitcoin a while ago.

Good to see someone else saying it.

Yeah he does an excellent job of explaining how regular currency is a safer method for drug dealers and druggies to use then the bitcoin.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 03:18:45 pm
That was an excellent find, Faust.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 04:12:59 pm
Love this. I'm spreading it to my zOMG SilkRoad! frennies.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 04:28:14 pm
I had only a vague idea of what a bitcoin even was.

This made it pretty clear.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 06:23:15 pm
It's a great concept but currency is a social contract whose strength relies on faith, adherence to its rules and exploitable flaws.

I'd like to see this go down in history as the first but flawed attempt at something great that comes along later. I don't have faith in that but I respect the attempt.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 06:25:48 pm
It's a great concept but currency is a social contract whose strength relies on faith, adherence to its rules and exploitable flaws.

I'd like to see this go down in history as the first but flawed attempt at something great that comes along later. I don't have faith in that but I respect the attempt.

wat

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg?1315930535)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States#The_era_of_free_banking
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 09, 2013, 06:31:28 pm
Nav, I eventually ended up at that wikipedia page a while ago when alternative currencies came up somehow.

It's well worth a read, it's a bad road.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 06:36:41 pm
Like that Liberty Dollar thing I almost lost my shirt in years ago?

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Basically, financial shit (and this is why working for National Discount Brokers was a poor fit for me) is like a giant shell-game with math. I can't keep track of where the aluminum foil ball is even when they use clear cups.

Poor choice of words on my part.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 06:39:40 pm
Like that Liberty Dollar thing I almost lost my shirt in years ago?

We Reverend Doktors have a technical term for that sort of thing.

"Investing like a fan", which is a subcondition of "Betting like a fan".  In layman's terms, Canada Bill Jones said it best, more than a hundred years ago:  "It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."

Having BEEN a sucker is not a shameful thing.  Lessons are learned, and they are never learned for free.  They may cost you money or pride or both.  It's only shameful when you run off and make the same fucking sucker bet a second time.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 06:48:13 pm
well, hey.  they're at least still worth spot.  (i haven't looked at it in a while, but there's a little bit of numismatic value to them as well, i believe)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 06:55:34 pm
Like that Liberty Dollar thing I almost lost my shirt in years ago?

We Reverend Doktors have a technical term for that sort of thing.

"Investing like a fan", which is a subcondition of "Betting like a fan".  In layman's terms, Canada Bill Jones said it best, more than a hundred years ago:  "It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."

Having BEEN a sucker is not a shameful thing.  Lessons are learned, and they are never learned for free.  They may cost you money or pride or both.  It's only shameful when you run off and make the same fucking sucker bet a second time.

Agreed.

And luckily, I didn't buy too much of the paper certificates. I bought the coins and got rid of them before it became out-and-out illegal to possess them.

My friend Karl Riele, however, committed suicide after he lost EVERYTHING. Not only did he have faith and place his bets, but he dragged a lot of loved ones and friends into the casino. Ruined his reputation, self-esteem, everything. Before the Fed took his entire life savings away and brought him up on charges, he'd established a thriving market for the things in Western NY based on his faith in the Rochester currency.

He was a very, very good, kindhearted man and until just a couple years ago, I believed, a survivor. I've known a lot of people (a LOT) who have snuffed themselves out over the last few years over far less. Karl was a shock.

Bitcoin is going to do this to people. The Fed won't tolerate competition.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 06:58:31 pm
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=186397

Quote
Sad day regarding Karl Reile
I am very sad to report that Karl Reile, a very close friend and one of Liberty Dollar's best Regional Currency Officers, died on Sunday, October 10, 2010 in Elma, New York.
Karl was not just a big supporter for Liberty Dollar and the ideals it represents, Karl was a close friend and a person I loved. I know his father, his three brothers and was a guest of his family on several occasions when I attended the Reile's annual "Pig Roast." There is simply no way to measure how much Karl is already missed. I loved that guy.
While the Liberty Dollar attracted many elderly supporters who have died over the years with much sadness, to lose Karl in such a tragic way is the most painful loss to his family, friends, fellow RCOs, me personally and for the whole Liberty Dollar organization.
Please join me as I send my deepest sympathy to Karl's recently married wife, his family, his many friends and all the RCOs. Karl was a spark plug, a doer and is already greatly missed. This is indeed a very sad day.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:01:40 pm
Like that Liberty Dollar thing I almost lost my shirt in years ago?

We Reverend Doktors have a technical term for that sort of thing.

"Investing like a fan", which is a subcondition of "Betting like a fan".  In layman's terms, Canada Bill Jones said it best, more than a hundred years ago:  "It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."

Having BEEN a sucker is not a shameful thing.  Lessons are learned, and they are never learned for free.  They may cost you money or pride or both.  It's only shameful when you run off and make the same fucking sucker bet a second time.

Agreed.

And luckily, I didn't buy too much of the paper certificates. I bought the coins and got rid of them before it became out-and-out illegal to possess them.

My friend Karl Riele, however, committed suicide after he lost EVERYTHING. Not only did he have faith and place his bets, but he dragged a lot of loved ones and friends into the casino. Ruined his reputation, self-esteem, everything. Before the Fed took his entire life savings away and brought him up on charges, he'd established a thriving market for the things in Western NY based on his faith in the Rochester currency.

He was a very, very good, kindhearted man and until just a couple years ago, I believed, a survivor. I've known a lot of people (a LOT) who have snuffed themselves out over the last few years over far less. Karl was a shock.

Bitcoin is going to do this to people. The Fed won't tolerate competition.

It really can't.  The institutional memory of the articles of confederation disaster is far more vivid than the public's memory, as can be seen by all the states' rights advocates running around.

Again, if a method failed due to an inherent flaw, trying it again only HARDER is just another way of - as Cracked put it - "painting racing stripes on your underwear, putting them on your head, and charging into a wall."

Sucks about your friend, though.  That was a disproportionate response on the government's part.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Salty on April 09, 2013, 07:22:48 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:25:42 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Salty on April 09, 2013, 07:30:21 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

That's a good point.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:31:21 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

That's a good point.

There's about 30 million people shitting themselves in terror because Gay people might get to marry.

WHERE IN THE FUCK IS THE THREAT IN THAT?

Oh, yeah.  To their ideologies.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:33:56 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

why, quite a few things, actually.  due to my time on this board, i am quite afraid of your fair city, and feel that it is rationally justified.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Salty on April 09, 2013, 07:35:15 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

That's a good point.

There's about 30 million people shitting themselves in terror because Gay people might get to marry.

WHERE IN THE FUCK IS THE THREAT IN THAT?

Oh, yeah.  To their ideologies.

Yeah, but do you think the Fed is actually worried about Bit coin more than, say, any other band of nerds with or without guns? The fear is supposed to be for us alone.

It hit me real hard recently, just how deep they give you the fear. And just how deeply it is fabricated.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:35:26 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

why, quite a few things, actually.  due to my time on this board, i am quite afraid of your fair city, and feel that it is rationally justified.

I didn't say NO fears had a rational basis.

But there's no need to fear Tucson.  It loves you, and it wants you to come and live forever.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:42:29 pm
well, it's not specifically the city that i fear.  it's just that i have heard tales of  a yeti living there capable of defecating incredible volumes, and has venereal diseases which are so vicious that they wrangle the local ostriches into great herds and ride them rip-shod around town.  and they have a particular penchant for running down anyone from TX that may be in town.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:44:51 pm
well, it's not specifically the city that i fear.  it's just that i have heard tales of  a yeti living there capable of defecating incredible volumes, and has venereal diseases which are so vicious that they wrangle the local ostriches into great herds and ride them rip-shod around town.  and they have a particular penchant for running down anyone from TX that may be in town.

Historically speaking, Tucson goes to Texas when that's necessary.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:46:29 pm
it would please me if you gave me a heads up next time this were to occur.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:47:56 pm
it would please me if you gave me a heads up next time this were to occur.

Sure.  But I mostly get sent to Houston and San Antonio.

Dallas is far too cool for a business trip.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:51:39 pm
 :?
as in 'too hip', or 'doesn't get enough 110 degree days in a row'?
i can assure you those are both innacurate.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:52:38 pm
:?
as in 'too hip', or 'doesn't get enough 110 degree days in a row'?
i can assure you those are both innacurate.

Too hip, when compared to Houston.  Or Westlake, LA.  Or Goddamn Pittsburg.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:55:27 pm
heh...
cooler than houston. that makes me chuckle.
 :)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 07:56:00 pm
heh...
cooler than houston. that makes me chuckle.
 :)

It's sort of like "wetter than Sonora".
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 09, 2013, 07:57:03 pm
right.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 08:22:49 pm
Oh I'm so glad to know Bitcoin is as crooked as it is stupid. It reaffirms my larger worldview, especially considering the FEAR the Fed has about it, if my Internets read accurate.

Which is to say, why would anyone be afraid of something so foolish? And obviously flawed? And just...just stupid.

How many things do people fear that have a rational basis for that fear?

They're not afraid of anything that leaves a paper trail and chomps readily at the hook. They just ain't had a reason to start reeling yet. Saving that for the big 'un, I think.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 08:24:43 pm
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the orders here are "Stand down. We wanna catch these Silk Road junkies first...but not until we clean up this Tor problem."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 08:35:24 pm

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Which is funny because no matter what a persons beliefs, the finance side basically dictates the reality of what is and is not possible.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 09:25:03 pm

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Which is funny because no matter what a persons beliefs, the finance side basically dictates the reality of what is and is not possible.

That doesn't make my ideas less valid.

Look, as I see it, this world is made up of number-crunchers, ideas people, philosophers, etcetera. Leaving all the decisions about how "reality" should be defined up to the money people is part of why my country's in this mess.

I do the best I can to keep myself informed. Some areas are easier than others but I'm no idiot, either.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 09:31:36 pm

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Which is funny because no matter what a persons beliefs, the finance side basically dictates the reality of what is and is not possible.

That doesn't make my ideas less valid.

Look, as I see it, this world is made up of number-crunchers, ideas people, philosophers, etcetera. Leaving all the decisions about how "reality" should be defined up to the money people is part of why my country's in this mess.

I do the best I can to keep myself informed. Some areas are easier than others but I'm no idiot, either.

No, what made the country a mess is that we didn't demand accountability from the money people.  Any system without oversight will garner the EXACT same results.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 09:32:38 pm

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Which is funny because no matter what a persons beliefs, the finance side basically dictates the reality of what is and is not possible.

That doesn't make my ideas less valid.

Look, as I see it, this world is made up of number-crunchers, ideas people, philosophers, etcetera. Leaving all the decisions about how "reality" should be defined up to the money people is part of why my country's in this mess.

I do the best I can to keep myself informed. Some areas are easier than others but I'm no idiot, either.

I'm not saying it makes anyone's ideas less valid. But it's a complicated mess, and with finance there are hidden pitfalls everywhere. The game is loaded in their favour.
The bitcoin is tragic because it uses peoples mistrust of the systems that have fucked up their respective countries, and in turn robs them blind. It's not just a misstep on a first attempt, it's a cruel and cynical way of stopping people from ever trying again.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 09:34:52 pm

Finance is a really BAAAAD area for me to for hard-and-fast opinions. I realize this and moderate myself. I probably won't understand half the shit on that wiki because OFUK MATH.

Which is funny because no matter what a persons beliefs, the finance side basically dictates the reality of what is and is not possible.

That doesn't make my ideas less valid.

Look, as I see it, this world is made up of number-crunchers, ideas people, philosophers, etcetera. Leaving all the decisions about how "reality" should be defined up to the money people is part of why my country's in this mess.

I do the best I can to keep myself informed. Some areas are easier than others but I'm no idiot, either.

I'm not saying it makes anyone's ideas less valid. But it's a complicated mess, and with finance there are hidden pitfalls everywhere. The game is loaded in their favour.
The bitcoin is tragic because it uses peoples mistrust of the systems that have fucked up their respective countries, and in turn robs them blind. It's not just a misstep on a first attempt, it's a cruel and cynical way of stopping people from ever trying again.

Also, why on Earth would I trust some currency created by some internet slob?  That has even LESS accountability than the current system.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 09:38:48 pm
Because internet buddy trust lol, "we shared a meme once. might as well have been in 'nam together."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 10:08:33 pm
Because internet buddy trust lol, "we shared a meme once. might as well have been in 'nam together."

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 10:21:11 pm
Hrmmm...I think some brilliant ideas and brilliant minds come from the people who use the technology. There are plenty of enlightened, educated hopefuls who earnestly try to change the world from behind a screen. That's not what troubles me about ideas like Bitcoin. It's the equally-brilliant, black-hat exploiters that keep the shit-factory running. The unabashed takers who feel the weak and naive have it coming to them and rely on non-victims to agree and validate them ("You can't cheat an honest man! Yuk yuk!")...often for the same reasons the NOPD dispatcher suggested it was my own fault when my vehicle was smashed and burglarized this weekend.

Only in this case, there are more opportunities to be informed. That doesn't put the victims at fault, nor does it make them complicit in their own victimization. It just gives you a little more time to catch that dude walking towards your window with a spark-plug in his hand.

I think it's entirely possible Satoshi had the best of intentions here. I've heard it said that the safeguards against inflation were deliberate but at its best, it's a social experiment and that means someone's got to be the guinea pigs.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 10:30:55 pm
Hrmmm...I think some brilliant ideas and brilliant minds come from the people who use the technology. There are plenty of enlightened, educated hopefuls who earnestly try to change the world from behind a screen. That's not what troubles me about ideas like Bitcoin. It's the equally-brilliant, black-hat exploiters that keep the shit-factory running. The unabashed takers who feel the weak and naive have it coming to them and rely on non-victims to agree and validate them ("You can't cheat an honest man! Yuk yuk!")...often for the same reasons the NOPD dispatcher suggested it was my own fault when my vehicle was smashed and burglarized this weekend.

Only in this case, there are more opportunities to be informed. That doesn't put the victims at fault, nor does it make them complicit in their own victimization. It just gives you a little more time to catch that dude walking towards your window with a spark-plug in his hand.

I think it's entirely possible Satoshi had the best of intentions here. I've heard it said that the safeguards against inflation were deliberate but at its best, it's a social experiment and that means someone's got to be the guinea pigs.

But it doesn't have to be me.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 11:09:18 pm
Nope. But it's not entirely dishonorable either for the experiment to reward its subjects (the early adopters) for taking the gamble by participating if it turns out the new drug works.

That's fine for them, not for you and me and if it gets corrupted, some people are going to be pretty fucked.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 11:10:55 pm
Hrmmm...I think some brilliant ideas and brilliant minds come from the people who use the technology. There are plenty of enlightened, educated hopefuls who earnestly try to change the world from behind a screen. That's not what troubles me about ideas like Bitcoin. It's the equally-brilliant, black-hat exploiters that keep the shit-factory running. The unabashed takers who feel the weak and naive have it coming to them and rely on non-victims to agree and validate them ("You can't cheat an honest man! Yuk yuk!")...often for the same reasons the NOPD dispatcher suggested it was my own fault when my vehicle was smashed and burglarized this weekend.

Only in this case, there are more opportunities to be informed. That doesn't put the victims at fault, nor does it make them complicit in their own victimization. It just gives you a little more time to catch that dude walking towards your window with a spark-plug in his hand.

I think it's entirely possible Satoshi had the best of intentions here. I've heard it said that the safeguards against inflation were deliberate but at its best, it's a social experiment and that means someone's got to be the guinea pigs.

Someone who's car gets burgled: not at fault.
Someone who gets swindled out of their savings: Not their fault.
Someone who puts their money into bitcoin: At fault, just as the man who sits down at blackjack table is at fault.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 09, 2013, 11:15:26 pm
Nope. But it's not entirely dishonorable either for the experiment to reward its subjects (the early adopters) for taking the gamble by participating if it turns out the new drug works.

That's fine for them, not for you and me and if it gets corrupted, some people are going to be pretty fucked.

Early adopters at the top of a pyramid scheme didn't gamble on the success of the bitcoin. The way it works is it gets progressively more difficult to get bitcoins based on these cryptographic hashes, they could do this without ever investing any of their own money (read up on bitcoin mining).
They took little to NO risk, the currency rises based on the larger investment pool of people below them in the pyramid. They sell off and cash out their earnings that they never had to invest in.

It was worse then negligent or dishonerable, it is a calculated effort to separate people from their money.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 11:35:18 pm
Nope. But it's not entirely dishonorable either for the experiment to reward its subjects (the early adopters) for taking the gamble by participating if it turns out the new drug works.

That's fine for them, not for you and me and if it gets corrupted, some people are going to be pretty fucked.

Early adopters at the top of a pyramid scheme didn't gamble on the success of the bitcoin. The way it works is it gets progressively more difficult to get bitcoins based on these cryptographic hashes, they could do this without ever investing any of their own money (read up on bitcoin mining).
They took little to NO risk, the currency rises based on the larger investment pool of people below them in the pyramid. They sell off and cash out their earnings that they never had to invest in.

It was worse then negligent or dishonerable, it is a calculated effort to separate people from their money.


Yeah, actually it's worse than that.

It's everything we detest about the current American economy since in order to own a slice of the pie, you either had to get there first or be able to afford a supercomputer to mine all day for you.

So, it's a system where the rich get richer and the poor get nothing. Poor, blacks with no access to adequate computers on the bottom. Again.

Consider me officially disillusioned.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 11:38:43 pm
HFT is hilariously full of con men.  Everything from "Quantum Touch Healing" ( :lulz: ) to Free Energy Devices (Cold Fusion, LOL).  The bit coin pimps were just starting to run all over the joint when Broze banned us all in a fit of free thinking (ie, we called out the con men...And Broze is the king-hell con man/Jim Jones daddy).

In fact, I'm reasonably sure that it was calling out THAT con (based on Faust's earlier article) that got us banned.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 10, 2013, 12:41:10 am
It was worse then negligent or dishonerable, it is a calculated effort to separate people from their money.

Or, as we call it here in 'Murrka, "Honest business."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 10, 2013, 12:49:10 am
heh...
cooler than houston. that makes me chuckle.
 :)

It's sort of like "wetter than Sonora".

Or "smells better than the restroom at the Arlan's supermarket in Seguin."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 11, 2013, 09:42:00 am
No one wants stability in a currency either, right? RIGHT?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/apr/10/bitcoin-new-high-losing-160

Quote
digital currency, lost more than $160 (£104) in value on Wednesday, just hours after hitting a record high.

The currency hit a new high of $266 before falling to $105 and then bouncing back to $130. The fall is unlikely to put off speculators. Two months ago, a Bitcoin was worth $20.

With Europe racked by economic uncertainty following the banking crisis in Cyprus, there have been fears that a "bubble" is being created with speculators piling into the four-year-old digital currency. But Bitcoin has crashed before only to bounce back. It hit a low of $7 in August 2011 after hitting a high of $32 two months earlier.

Jon Matonis of the Bitcoin Foundation, the currency's promoter, denied a euro-bubble was being created in an interview with Der Spiegel this week.

"Most transactions are still coming from affluent regions, like the United States and northern Europe. What we are seeing is not a Cyprus bubble," he said.

Until recently Bitcoin had been a largely obscure currency used by the tech-savvy, libertarians wishing to thumb their noses at central bankers and people involved in more nefarious activities such as online gambling (often illegal in the US) or drug deals.

There are around 11m Bitcoins in circulation, 25 new bitcoins are produced every 10 minutes, and they are traded through online exchanges like Mt.Gox.

Quote
Wednesday's wild ride came as someone gave away thousands of dollars worth of Bitcoins on Reddit, the social news site. News blog Business Insider calculated a Reddit user under the name "Bitcoinbillionaire" had given away $13,627.69896 worth of Bitcoins to Reddit users over the day. The mystery donor signed off with a quote from Ron Paul, libertarian politician and one-time would-be presidential candidate: "It's no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 11, 2013, 10:17:59 am
The best comment I've seen on it now is that it is the only currency that dramatically drops in value in the time between you click buy, and the are you sure prompt.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 11, 2013, 10:35:03 am
Zimbabwe must have been pissed to lose that claim to infamy.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 11, 2013, 10:41:06 am
Zimbabwe must have been pissed to lose that claim to infamy.
Yeah, they are now only the second most unstable joke currency in the world.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on April 11, 2013, 10:55:54 am
Quote
"It's no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of central banking."

What, the 18th century?  :|
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 11, 2013, 04:08:47 pm
It's totally not a "Cyprus bubble"! It's a good thing he said that, to set my mind at ease.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Shtik on April 11, 2013, 06:31:41 pm
Zimbabwe must have been pissed to lose that claim to infamy.
Yeah, they are now only the second most unstable joke currency in the world.

What do you mean? I don't see the problem there. I for one would love to buy a stack of these for five bucks!

(http://www.significancemagazine.org/SpringboardWebApp/userfiles/sig/image/ChampkinUploads/Zimbabwe_$100_trillion_2009_Obverse(1).jpg)

Come to think of it, we should just add a few zeroes to the end of every dollar. Lets all be trillionaires!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 11, 2013, 09:13:07 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22110345

BBC Tech correspondant appears woefully uninformed about the actuals Cons.

As do the comments section. I really hope this catches onto to more people now. It probably will. The current generations still remember the "dot com" boom (Or as it actually was- Having a geocities site filled with ads and malware) but were just too young to get in on it. This is going to grab all those lazy entrepreneurs and fuck them rigid.


As an aside, I actually managed to get hold of a couple of Zimbabwe banknotes a few years back. The motivation was just to have a couple to pass around the group as a nominal favour token done for "ONE BILLION DOLLARS".


Things done for ONE BILLION DOLLARS:

The dishes
Walking the dog
Lift to the shop
A pint
Shut up for 5 minutes
Etc, you get the idea

It amused us for quite a while. People get interested when you actually pass a note about for things too. Ended up in some interesting conversations. Give it a go.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on April 12, 2013, 12:19:33 am
The Winklevoss twins are heavily invested in bitcoin.

As if you needed another reason to avoid it like the plague.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 15, 2013, 09:59:25 am
So it also seems that not only is this a scam but it is an incredibly eco unfriendly one.

Bitcoin mining which is the process of solving cryptographic hashes and regulating how much new currency comes on the market is taking up more and more cpu time as people across the world attempt to get free money out of this, leaving a nasty carbon footprint without actually creating anything of real value at all.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/13/the-cost-of-a-bitcoin/
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on April 15, 2013, 01:06:07 pm
Well, in that sense, Bitcoin is mirroring the international financial system perfectly.

Also:

Quote
"It's no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of the miniskirt."

Quote
"It's no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of the theory of relativity"

Quote
"It's no coincidence that the century of total war coincided with the century of synthetic plastics."

Are all equally valid as Ron Paul's above assertion.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 17, 2013, 08:52:29 am
The chuckles just keep on coming:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22152213

Quote
Who would have thought one of the tech wizards behind a global currency would live in a squat.

Amir Taaki is a developer who works with a virtual currency called Bitcoin. His home and office is an abandoned Buddhist temple. The dwelling is covered in brightly painted but slowly decaying murals of Buddha, with the odd makeshift bunk bed and flotsam furniture like a couch with no pillows.

His fellow squatters are members of the Occupy movement and Mr Taaki's Bitcoin philosophy is very much in line with theirs.

"Bitcoin is for pure financial freedom of speech," he says. "It really changes the dynamics of how money works."

His voice exudes passion for the currency.

"Bitcoin is the proper perfect economy," he says. "The technology needed to participate is open, the entry and exit is basically very cheap or free, there's no barriers to competing in that network."

The currency exists exclusively online and is independent of any government or company.

It was spawned in 2009 by an unknown person or group of people calling themselves Satoshi Nakamoto. Early adopters, including Mr Taaki, were mostly tech-minded people with distrust in regulated banking institutions.

I'm starting to suspect that a couple of folk at the BBC have bought some and are seeing if they can pump the price.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on April 18, 2013, 10:42:02 am
Why Bitcoin is more stupid (http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-bitcoin-bubble-bad-hypothesis-8353) than fiat currency (and also a bubble):

Quote
It might seem that Bitcoin is just like a fiat currency issued by governments. Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Jack Hough says precisely that it's a purely online currency with no intrinsic value; its worth is based solely on the willingness of holders and merchants to accept it in trade. In that respect, it's not so different from fiat currencies like the dollar or Euro, but whereas governments back such money, Bitcoins lack central control.

But this is a misunderstanding of what money does and where it came from. The “fiat” (meaning “let there be”) in “fiat money” reflects the power of governments to command and tax. Because of their power to tax, governments can make money by fiat, simply by declaring their willingness to accept that money in repayment of tax debts.

Historically, money arose from, and in conjunction with, this power. (This point has been made repeatedly over the years, most recently in David Graeber’s controversial Debt: The First 5000 Years, a surprise publishing hit for an anthropologist. )

By contrast, Bitcoin looks more like the “just so” story, commonly told in economics textbooks, in which money arises to simplify what would otherwise be complex and cumbersome barter transactions.

That would be fine if Bitcoin were simply a unit of account, used to keep track of transactions. But all the interest in Bitcoin is in the idea that it is a store of value, one that may be expected to show steady appreciation rather than depreciation. So Bitcoin needs to be evaluated as a financial asset.

Viewed in this way, Bitcoin is perhaps the finest example of a pure bubble. It beats the classic historical example, produced during the 18th century South Sea Bubble of "a company for carrying out an undertaking of great advantage, but nobody to know what it is." After all, the promoter of this enterprise might, in principle, have had a genuine secret plan. Bitcoin also outmatches Ponzi schemes, which rely on the claim that the issuer is undertaking some kind of financial arbitrage (the original Ponzi scheme was supposed to involve postal orders). The closest parallel is the fictitious dotcom company imagined in Garry Trudeau’s Doonesbury, whose only product was its own stock.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 06:16:36 pm

this might sound dumb or simplistic but:

the more people buying bitcoin, the more valuable it becomes, therefore, the day, which will ultimately come, when people start to cash out or trade their currency for real one, the bubble will explode? for the act of less people backing it or having trust in it since it doesnt have gold or whatever to back it up
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 18, 2013, 08:34:26 pm

this might sound dumb or simplistic but:

the more people buying bitcoin, the more valuable it becomes, therefore, the day, which will ultimately come, when people start to cash out or trade their currency for real one, the bubble will explode? for the act of less people backing it or having trust in it since it doesnt have gold or whatever to back it up

Yes exactly, but it has a knock on effect because it's trading value wont go 1:1 proportion dip, the loss of confidence sends it soaring down.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on April 18, 2013, 08:39:30 pm

this might sound dumb or simplistic but:

the more people buying bitcoin, the more valuable it becomes, therefore, the day, which will ultimately come, when people start to cash out or trade their currency for real one, the bubble will explode? for the act of less people backing it or having trust in it since it doesnt have gold or whatever to back it up

Yes exactly, but it has a knock on effect because it's trading value wont go 1:1 proportion dip, the loss of confidence sends it soaring down.

i think the term is "investment/capital flee"... well im not sure its called that but like... the snowball effect of decline in a company's stock value... company sinking? everyone bails out and sells their stock, thus the cost dipping out.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 29, 2013, 03:34:24 pm
This weeks reason not to use bitcoin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186902.msg1936161#msg1936161

Another Bitcoin exchange hacked.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 24, 2013, 10:42:46 am
Related update:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/24/bitcoin-cease-desist-california

Quote
California's Department of Financial Institutions has issued a cease and desist letter to the Bitcoin Foundation for "allegedly engaging in the business of money transmission without a license or proper authorisation,"  according to Forbes. The news comes after Bitcoin held its "Future of Payments" conference in San Jose, California, in May.  (The license information is available on CA.gov and Forbes placed the cease and desist letter on  Scribd.)

If found in violation, penalties range from $1,000 (£650) to $2,500 (£1,625) per violation per day plus criminal prosecution (which could lead to more fines and possibly imprisonment). Under federal law, it's also a felony "to engage in the business of money transmission without the appropriate state license or failure to register with the US Treasury Department," according to Forbes. Penalties under that law could be up to five years in prison and a $250,000 (£160,000) fine.

It'll be interesting to see if they make it to the end of the year. I'm currently thinking at least one or two people are going to be in jail soon for something.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on July 02, 2013, 09:41:10 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23140904

Quote
yler and Cameron Winklevoss, famed for their legal dispute with Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg, have unveiled plans to float a Bitcoin trust.

The Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust will initially sell $20m (£13m) worth of shares to investors, according to a filing with the US regulators.

The twins are among the key backers of Bitcoin, a virtual currency traded independent of monetary authorities.

Anyone want to guess how this will end?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on July 02, 2013, 04:42:04 pm
Lawsuits?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on September 10, 2013, 02:50:15 pm
Probably.

And still there's MORE:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/09/05/follow-the-bitcoins-how-we-got-busted-buying-drugs-on-silk-roads-black-market/

Quote
With the data from just 344 of their own transactions, they were able to label the owners of more than a million Bitcoin addresses. And by making just four deposits and seven withdrawals into accounts held on Silk Road, Meiklejohn says the researchers identified 295,435 addresses as belonging to that drug market.

HO HO HO. This is what an interested party can do. Anyone else think the NSA may just have a big list of everyone involved in the silk road somewhere? Times, dates, purchases..... If the prisons got quiet I bet I know who's getting a call.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2013, 09:23:29 am
Adopting this thread as the BITCOIN UNLIMITED BULLSHIT THREAD

Why?

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/8/5080774/fec-to-allow-bitcoin-contributions-in-political-campaigns

Quote
The Federal Election Commission (FEC) is moving to allow Bitcoin donations as a campaign contribution in national races. Under the rules, Bitcoin donations would be considered "in-kind contributions" rather than direct money contributions, because the digital currency isn't the official currency of any nation and doesn't entitle holders to the ability to exchange it for cash like a check or money order might. The rules were proposed in a draft yesterday, and according to The Hill, they'll likely be approved later this month.

A mechanism to assist varied awkward to trace donations? Who could possibly have such an incentive?

The future: Brought to you by the Koch brothers and anyone else with cash and political goals.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on November 11, 2013, 09:38:17 am
Or, this is the continuation of an FBI program.

The FBI seized what is believed to be the vast majority of existing BitCoins in their raid on the Silk Road.  The FBI would therefore control what many consider the currency of choice for illicit activities.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2013, 10:02:08 am
I hadn't considered that angle.

Would bitcoins fall under the federal asset seizure regulations? If so, that could get quite amusing as those funds seem to get spent with practically no oversight anyway.

It would be in their own self interest to fund candidates and campaigns sympathetic to them. Which surely creates a fuckton of conflicts of interest.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on November 11, 2013, 01:54:29 pm
Or, this is the continuation of an FBI program.

The FBI seized what is believed to be the vast majority of existing BitCoins in their raid on the Silk Road.  The FBI would therefore control what many consider the currency of choice for illicit activities.

The funny thing is the transactions are publicly available and searchable forever. I don't know how easy it is to look at party donations in the states, but here in Ireland if you start asking about that you disappear.

They still haven't been able to do anything with the Silk road bitcoin, they have the wallet but without the password it's useless to them. And because of the peer to peer nature of currency, the community has to approve the transactions.

I think the bitcoin is utterly useless, barring this slim satisfaction that the assets that were seized can't be redistributed.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Telarus on November 13, 2013, 06:28:50 pm
Hrm, interesting.. I hadn't thought of that angle. Didn't the Silk Road guy cop to a plea deal? I wonder if that involved divulging his wallet password...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on November 13, 2013, 06:55:00 pm
I wonder if that involved divulging his wallet password...

(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2013, 09:59:32 am
Rubber-hose cryptanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis) is best cryptanalysis
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on November 14, 2013, 03:20:40 pm
Rubber-hose cryptanalysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis) is best cryptanalysis

Reasons I love wikipedia #2 - Shit like that.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on November 18, 2013, 10:52:57 am
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/11/bitcoin_feds/

Seems important, posting to remind myself to read this when less busy.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on November 19, 2013, 01:05:20 pm
Yet more:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24986264

Quote
The value of virtual currency Bitcoin has soared to over $900 (£559), after a US Senate committee hearing.

The committee was told that virtual currencies were a "legitimate financial service" with the same benefits and risks as other online payment systems.

The Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee is exploring the "promises and risks" of Bitcoin for "government and society at large".

No idea where this could go.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on November 19, 2013, 01:54:19 pm
Incredibly volatile, it tanked a few hours ago, it will have recovered most of that 900 in another few. The worrying thing is people are going to see this as a chance to make quick money on this without an easy way to convert that BC back to regular cash when they want to.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on November 28, 2013, 12:11:42 pm
Just a thought http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/15/bitcoin-companies-and-entrepreneurs-cant-get-bank-accounts/
if the banks are getting scared then maybe there is a bright side to all of this. Robespierre was arguably worse than Louis XVI but he was still an important step in outgrowing a dated system. If BC can hold on long enough to do lasting damage to the big boys then just maybe the whole edifice will start to crumble hopefully leaving enough room in the ruins to introduce a smarter system of global exchange.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on November 28, 2013, 12:24:10 pm
Private currencies aren't anything new, though.

They've been tried repeatedly in the past, and the outcomes have often been pretty terrible.  I mean, banks probably think a nuclear holocaust is a bad idea too, are you going to advocate for one because they dislike it?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 28, 2013, 02:16:04 pm
I saw it more as 'Even the rats won't touch that shit.'
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2013, 09:51:25 pm
Just a thought http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/15/bitcoin-companies-and-entrepreneurs-cant-get-bank-accounts/
if the banks are getting scared then maybe there is a bright side to all of this. Robespierre was arguably worse than Louis XVI but he was still an important step in outgrowing a dated system. If BC can hold on long enough to do lasting damage to the big boys then just maybe the whole edifice will start to crumble hopefully leaving enough room in the ruins to introduce a smarter system of global exchange.

Like what?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on November 28, 2013, 09:52:19 pm
Private currencies aren't anything new, though.

They've been tried repeatedly in the past, and the outcomes have often been pretty terrible.  I mean, banks probably think a nuclear holocaust is a bad idea too, are you going to advocate for one because they dislike it?
For some reason I'm inclined to think that a nuclear holocaust would be much worse for the human race than a global financial meltdown.
I would also point out the fact that Bitcoin has entered the consciousness of a far larger portion of the current global population than any other private currency project to date.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on November 28, 2013, 09:52:50 pm
Just a thought http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/15/bitcoin-companies-and-entrepreneurs-cant-get-bank-accounts/
if the banks are getting scared then maybe there is a bright side to all of this. Robespierre was arguably worse than Louis XVI but he was still an important step in outgrowing a dated system. If BC can hold on long enough to do lasting damage to the big boys then just maybe the whole edifice will start to crumble hopefully leaving enough room in the ruins to introduce a smarter system of global exchange.

Like what?
I was hoping you could answer that question
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on November 28, 2013, 11:20:29 pm
Private currencies aren't anything new, though.

They've been tried repeatedly in the past, and the outcomes have often been pretty terrible.  I mean, banks probably think a nuclear holocaust is a bad idea too, are you going to advocate for one because they dislike it?
For some reason I'm inclined to think that a nuclear holocaust would be much worse for the human race than a global financial meltdown.
I would also point out the fact that Bitcoin has entered the consciousness of a far larger portion of the current global population than any other private currency project to date.
The Bitcoin has been integrated into the system that's what these congressional hearings are about. It's not a viable alternative to the existing system because the people currently making money off it were the early investors, they are cashing out their amounts for the inflated prices brought on by new investment.

That's where the YoYo pattern is coming from. It breaks a thousand today, it drops to 400 tomorrow, repeat until dilution. When dilution reaches a certain point it will be a stable currency but at that point it will have been subjected to the following:
Criminalisation for failure to declare income in bitcoin (read goodbye anonymous money transfer).
Regulation on how much bitcoin you can have.
And an attempt at taxation by various nation states.

Everyone thinks this is a great thing that it's currently being discussed in goverment, when in reality it is a discussion that will lead to it being crippled if not its complete demise.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2013, 02:19:36 am

I would also point out the fact that Bitcoin has entered the consciousness of a far larger portion of the current global population than any other private currency project to date.

So has Amway.  What's your point?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2013, 02:21:08 am
Just a thought http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/15/bitcoin-companies-and-entrepreneurs-cant-get-bank-accounts/
if the banks are getting scared then maybe there is a bright side to all of this. Robespierre was arguably worse than Louis XVI but he was still an important step in outgrowing a dated system. If BC can hold on long enough to do lasting damage to the big boys then just maybe the whole edifice will start to crumble hopefully leaving enough room in the ruins to introduce a smarter system of global exchange.

Like what?
I was hoping you could answer that question

I am a Holy Man™, sir.  It is not the job of said Holy Men™ to answer questions.  Our job is to ASK questions, pester with questions, hound people into an early grave with questions, etc, until someone finally martyrs us.

Thomas Paine, for example.  He STILL hasn't shut the fuck up, and he's been dead for 200 years or so.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2013, 02:21:48 am
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 29, 2013, 07:16:05 am
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2013, 07:19:16 am
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...

Exactly my point.  Go to a new currency, the same fuckers will do the same damn thing.

This sort of shit is worse than people saying "we need to restore the constitution", ignoring the rather HUGE and fatal flaw in the argument itself...That is to say, the constitution got us where we are now.  "reset" it, and we're RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED.

DUMBASSES.  ALL OF THE HUMANS.  GET OFF OF MY PLANET.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Payne on November 29, 2013, 08:38:04 am
Zimbabwe must have been pissed to lose that claim to infamy.
Yeah, they are now only the second most unstable joke currency in the world.

What do you mean? I don't see the problem there. I for one would love to buy a stack of these for five bucks!

(http://www.significancemagazine.org/SpringboardWebApp/userfiles/sig/image/ChampkinUploads/Zimbabwe_$100_trillion_2009_Obverse(1).jpg)

Come to think of it, we should just add a few zeroes to the end of every dollar. Lets all be trillionaires!

http://theworstthingsforsale.com/2013/04/13/one-hundred-trillion-dollars/
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 29, 2013, 09:09:37 am
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...

Exactly my point.  Go to a new currency, the same fuckers will do the same damn thing.

This sort of shit is worse than people saying "we need to restore the constitution", ignoring the rather HUGE and fatal flaw in the argument itself...That is to say, the constitution got us where we are now.  "reset" it, and we're RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED.

DUMBASSES.  ALL OF THE HUMANS.  GET OFF OF MY PLANET.
Yep.
Though i feel inclined to add that i have nothing against alternative currencies, I just think this one is impressively stupid. Especially since it is not an alternative, it is just a product you can buy with real money that does some of the things real currency does. Mostly the bad things for some reason.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 01, 2013, 03:13:23 pm
The Bitcoin has been integrated into the system that's what these congressional hearings are about. It's not a viable alternative to the existing system because the people currently making money off it were the early investors, they are cashing out their amounts for the inflated prices brought on by new investment.

That's where the YoYo pattern is coming from. It breaks a thousand today, it drops to 400 tomorrow, repeat until dilution. When dilution reaches a certain point it will be a stable currency but at that point it will have been subjected to the following:
Criminalisation for failure to declare income in bitcoin (read goodbye anonymous money transfer).
Regulation on how much bitcoin you can have.
And an attempt at taxation by various nation states.

Everyone thinks this is a great thing that it's currently being discussed in goverment, when in reality it is a discussion that will lead to it being crippled if not its complete demise.
I never suggested that Bitcoin might be a viable alternative(I thought my French Revolution analogy made that pretty clear). My only point was to suggest that if the banks are getting worried then the perhaps the process you just described might considerably shake up the system and perhaps leave the way open to a truly viable alternative.
I am no economics expert but a system of global exchange whereby an hour of menial work in one city earns you the right to purchase several kilos worth of highly manufactured plastic junk that took many many menial man hours to produce, while the same hour of menial work in another city barely earns you a half a kilo of grain, can not possibly be considered an efficient and viable system.
The global information network opens up myriad possibilites for new systems of exchange which we should be actively exploring at every opportunity instead of trying to mutate some centuries old model that was originally designed to work in a world of clearly divided nation states AND with a gold standard which has since been quite unceremoniously discarded in order to achieve a level of corruption and resource control that is grander in scope and reach than any known 'economic system' that has ever existed.
Bitcoin may not have the answers, I certainly don't and apparently neither do the Holy Men™ but if Bitcoin and its squatter knights can strike a blow at the big banks then maybe someone who does might get the chance to step up.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 01, 2013, 03:14:08 pm
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...

Exactly my point.  Go to a new currency, the same fuckers will do the same damn thing.

This sort of shit is worse than people saying "we need to restore the constitution", ignoring the rather HUGE and fatal flaw in the argument itself...That is to say, the constitution got us where we are now.  "reset" it, and we're RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED.

DUMBASSES.  ALL OF THE HUMANS.  GET OFF OF MY PLANET.
I think the point is to get beyond the idea of currency.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 01, 2013, 03:21:15 pm

I would also point out the fact that Bitcoin has entered the consciousness of a far larger portion of the current global population than any other private currency project to date.

So has Amway.  What's your point?
Cain pointed out that private currencies were nothing new and he reasoned that because of their past failure Bitcoin would follow suit, I was merely responding to this statement by pointing out that although the idea was nothing new Bitcoin is unique in being the Private Currency Experiment with the widest reach to date thus suggesting that Cain's reasoning was flawed.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 01:31:25 am
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...

Exactly my point.  Go to a new currency, the same fuckers will do the same damn thing.

This sort of shit is worse than people saying "we need to restore the constitution", ignoring the rather HUGE and fatal flaw in the argument itself...That is to say, the constitution got us where we are now.  "reset" it, and we're RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED.

DUMBASSES.  ALL OF THE HUMANS.  GET OFF OF MY PLANET.
I think the point is to get beyond the idea of currency.

Okay.  The only alternative I can think of is barter, and I'd really rather not go back to the 18th century, standard of living-wise.

Did you have something else in mind?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 01:31:55 am

I would also point out the fact that Bitcoin has entered the consciousness of a far larger portion of the current global population than any other private currency project to date.

So has Amway.  What's your point?
Cain pointed out that private currencies were nothing new and he reasoned that because of their past failure Bitcoin would follow suit, I was merely responding to this statement by pointing out that although the idea was nothing new Bitcoin is unique in being the Private Currency Experiment with the widest reach to date thus suggesting that Cain's reasoning was flawed.

It's more like the world's most successful pyramid scheme.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on December 02, 2013, 12:21:40 pm
More people use Bitcoin than existed in the USA during the Free Banking Era, than in 19th century Switzerland, than in 19th century Sweden and Australia?

 :lulz:

Yeah, please point out the "flaws in my logic" with your completely ahistorical conception of private currencies.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:18:50 pm
And on THAT note, what the fuck is wrong with the currency we have now?
The currency is fine. The organisations controlling it however...

Exactly my point.  Go to a new currency, the same fuckers will do the same damn thing.

This sort of shit is worse than people saying "we need to restore the constitution", ignoring the rather HUGE and fatal flaw in the argument itself...That is to say, the constitution got us where we are now.  "reset" it, and we're RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED.

DUMBASSES.  ALL OF THE HUMANS.  GET OFF OF MY PLANET.
I think the point is to get beyond the idea of currency.

Okay.  The only alternative I can think of is barter, and I'd really rather not go back to the 18th century, standard of living-wise.

Did you have something else in mind?
Barter = yes but how in the fuck does that equate to "going back to the 18th century"?, did the average citizen of the 18th century have near instantaneous textual access to a large percentage of the world population?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 10:21:23 pm
Barter = yes but how in the fuck does that equate to "going back to the 18th century"?, did the average citizen of the 18th century have near instantaneous textual access to a large percentage of the world population?

I wish to buy a computer.  The parts for that computer are made in 6 different countries.

I have a load of chickens to trade for said computer.

HOW DO?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 10:27:00 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:28:49 pm
Barter = yes but how in the fuck does that equate to "going back to the 18th century"?, did the average citizen of the 18th century have near instantaneous textual access to a large percentage of the world population?

I wish to buy a computer.  The parts for that computer are made in 6 different countries.

I have a load of chickens to trade for said computer.

HOW DO?
Finally an intelligent question.
Obviously some form of 'currency' is required however I fail to see
A) why we need 182 of them
B) Why they must be subject to inflation
can you provide me with a satisfactory answer to either of those questions or will you hide behind the Holy Man™ robes again?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:29:56 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 10:31:55 pm
Barter = yes but how in the fuck does that equate to "going back to the 18th century"?, did the average citizen of the 18th century have near instantaneous textual access to a large percentage of the world population?

I wish to buy a computer.  The parts for that computer are made in 6 different countries.

I have a load of chickens to trade for said computer.

HOW DO?
Finally an intelligent question.

I'm kinda dumb, you have to bear with me.

Quote
Obviously some form of 'currency' is required however I fail to see
A) why we need 182 of them

Quite right.  Those smudgy foreigners in their "countries" should all use our currency.

Quote
B) Why they must be subject to inflation

Because economies expand, and a $0.10 candy is not as valuable as a $5.99 book.

And because sometimes real items and commidities have scarcities.

Quote
can you provide me with a satisfactory answer to either of those questions or will you hide behind the Holy Man™ robes again?

I can do BOTH.  See above.  Except I don't hide BEHIND THEM, I hide INSIDE them.  With all the horrible parasitic creatures that also live inside them.  You don't want to know.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2013, 10:32:55 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:41:28 pm
Ok as previously stated I am drunk and so trying to figure out all those goddamn 'quote' markers is proving beyond my powers (clearly your speed of response indicates you are of untainted mind)

However

1)Who the fuck are these 'smudgy foreigners' ? As far as I'm concerned the only "our currency" equates "our" with "humanity"

2) Although you are only 'kinda dumb' I am 'very dumb' so I'm afraid you will have to back up "I can do BOTH." with more than "See above"
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:42:43 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
actually I'm inclined to accept your sarcasm as truth.
I farm. I have a lot of free time.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 02, 2013, 10:54:31 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 03, 2013, 12:13:39 am
Barter = yes but how in the fuck does that equate to "going back to the 18th century"?, did the average citizen of the 18th century have near instantaneous textual access to a large percentage of the world population?

I wish to buy a computer.  The parts for that computer are made in 6 different countries.

I have a load of chickens to trade for said computer.

HOW DO?
Finally an intelligent question.
Obviously some form of 'currency' is required however I fail to see
A) why we need 182 of them
B) Why they must be subject to inflation
can you provide me with a satisfactory answer to either of those questions or will you hide behind the Holy Man™ robes again?
[/qoute]
A) Because a single currency would be under control of a single organisation. This is VERY BAD. Also known as Totalitarian. OK, under the current system we have 182-ish smaller scale totalitarian currencies, a few pyramid schemes and a few relatively independent currencies. These independent currencies are neccesarily small scale, you would not want to trade internationally with something that is only usable in a few small towns in germany. Any larger and they start to suffer from inflation and such, on account of localized differences in perceived value. (As DOUR already (sort of) said)
Anyway, an increase in scale of a currency leads to three things:
1) Inflation, can be annoying but not usually a big problem.
2) An increase in totalitarian control, not really a problem with the right checks and balances but for everyone's sake: Don't let this one get too bad.
3) Increased viability for international trade, this is something we need to have any level of luxury.
Hmm, my format is wonky but i think i made my points clearly.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 03, 2013, 12:20:44 am
If I had a background in economics, like even one starter class to fill me in on theory and what other people have already figured out, I might be able to contribute intelligently to this discussion.

Alas, I do not, so I am pretty sure that  any ideas I have are both half-baked and fail to take into consideration almost all of the ideas everyone else already knows about.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on December 03, 2013, 12:37:08 am
I have no economics training, but I don't need any to notice a global economy that turns on a single point of failure makes it massively fragile, and wide open to corruption by any sufficiently powerful interest. Which, in capitalism, is inevitable.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:03:24 am
Ok as previously stated I am drunk and so trying to figure out all those goddamn 'quote' markers is proving beyond my powers (clearly your speed of response indicates you are of untainted mind)

However

1)Who the fuck are these 'smudgy foreigners' ? As far as I'm concerned the only "our currency" equates "our" with "humanity"

2) Although you are only 'kinda dumb' I am 'very dumb' so I'm afraid you will have to back up "I can do BOTH." with more than "See above"

I stated my case AND hid inside the sanctity of my office.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:04:11 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:05:44 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
actually I'm inclined to accept your sarcasm as truth.
I farm. I have a lot of free time.

You farm, you say?  Care to elaborate?  Because having grown up in a farming community, I noticed that farmers work their fingers to the fucking bone 6-1/2 days a week.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Ben Shapiro on December 03, 2013, 02:06:51 am
How many chickens do I trade the bandits so they leave me alone?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:09:39 am
I have no economics training, but I don't need any to notice a global economy that turns on a single point of failure makes it massively fragile, and wide open to corruption by any sufficiently powerful interest. Which, in capitalism, is inevitable.

I also have no economics training, but I do know how monkeys operate.  The only thing keeping our civilization trundling along right now is inertia.  Tradition.  So the obvious thing to do is make HUGE CHANGES.

I mean, it's not like the money men will take advantage of the confusion of a currency change, right?  And it's not like you don't have the ability to do gymnastics when you're running downhill on ice.

So let's change the currency just because.  To show how clever we are.

And yes, let's have just ONE worldwide currency, so we don't have any sort of cushion effect when one economy goes down the shitter.  Remember Greece and Italy and Spain and Ireland and Iceland and half of Germany and and and

Neither do I.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:10:22 am
How many chickens do I trade the bandits so they leave me alone?

There's going to be about 30 of them.  Hold them off with your trusty squirrel rifle. 

ARE YOU A MOUSE OR ARE YOU RAMBO?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 03, 2013, 02:46:34 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?

I think he means to say "I have three chickens and some tomato plants".
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 02:47:44 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?

I think he means to say "I have three chickens and some tomato plants".

Or has beaten the mortal shit out of Farmville.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Ben Shapiro on December 03, 2013, 06:18:07 am
How many chickens do I trade the bandits so they leave me alone?

There's going to be about 30 of them.  Hold them off with your trusty squirrel rifle. 

ARE YOU A MOUSE OR ARE YOU RAMBO?

My God you're right!
Here I am fucking chickens like a jackass!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Ben Shapiro on December 03, 2013, 06:18:42 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?

I think he means to say "I have three chickens and some tomato plants".

He sells pot.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on December 03, 2013, 08:44:27 am
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

It's lucky that the world is filled with people just like the people you know.

 
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Pæs on December 03, 2013, 08:41:34 pm
I don't think bitcoin is going to save the world, but I do like it as an experiment, which is how they frame it here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ
The part where there's an open source, decentralised network in which all of the nodes agree on what's going on, in a fairly secure way, is pretty cool and I think currency is a clever use of this tech, even if the founders admit to having no idea how a currency like this actually interacts with our existing economic systems.

Also, shut up about farmers having spare time to fight bandits, you clown.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on December 03, 2013, 08:46:26 pm
Apparently, The Magnificent Seven was a documentary.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 08:48:54 pm
One man against 30.  It could happen.   :lulz:

Because, you know, they're going to attack when he's ready for them, machine gun loaded, in his bunker.  Not when he's out working the fields or asleep or anything.

Because bandits fight fair.  It's right in their code of ethics.

When the farmer runs out of bullets, he will then resort to his extensive kung fu training, with which he filled all those long, long hours of downtime that farmers are saddled with.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2013, 08:49:20 pm
Come to think of it, how do I pay for police to keep the roads clear of bandits so I can move my chickens?
KILL THE FUCKING BANDITS! are you a man or a rodent?

Why, sure.  With all that free time I have as a farmer, I have LOADS of time and resources to practice marksmanship and small unit tactics.

That's WAY more efficient than, say, having everyone kick in for a professional police force.
Also regardless of your estimation of my own purported farming/small unit tactics skills I am confident in proclaiming that most of the real farmers I know are all excellent marksmen...

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?

I think he means to say "I have three chickens and some tomato plants".

He sells pot.

WINNAR.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on December 03, 2013, 08:55:25 pm
Hey now, just because farmers have the skills to take out crows and the occasional coyote with a Winchester, it totally follows that they could work as a team against people who rely on their skill at violence for a living and have almost certainly fought side by side on numerous occasion, and probably have at least semi-decent quality weapons.

I mean, are you seriously suggesting bandits are smarter than crows?  Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 04, 2013, 01:09:34 am
A) Because a single currency would be under control of a single organisation. This is VERY BAD. Also known as Totalitarian. OK, under the current system we have 182-ish smaller scale totalitarian currencies, a few pyramid schemes and a few relatively independent currencies. These independent currencies are neccesarily small scale, you would not want to trade internationally with something that is only usable in a few small towns in germany. Any larger and they start to suffer from inflation and such, on account of localized differences in perceived value. (As DOUR already (sort of) said)
Anyway, an increase in scale of a currency leads to three things:
1) Inflation, can be annoying but not usually a big problem.
2) An increase in totalitarian control, not really a problem with the right checks and balances but for everyone's sake: Don't let this one get too bad.
3) Increased viability for international trade, this is something we need to have any level of luxury.
Hmm, my format is wonky but i think i made my points clearly.

A) Unless the 'single organisation' is not subject to human weakness i.e. a well programmed algorithm a la Google search

As previously stated I am "very dumb" and I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Telarus on December 04, 2013, 01:17:25 am
A) Unless the 'single organisation' is not subject to human weakness i.e. a well programmed algorithm a la Google search

:spittake:

"SANTORUM"
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 04, 2013, 01:30:15 am

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?
about a dozen and in all honesty it's a long, long way from perfect, we are barely able to produce 50% of what we consume.
However I am fully aware of "inherent laziness" and feel confident that were I no longer to be blessed with the lifetime efforts of god knows how many third world chumps the 50% could quickly become 200

As for the the real farmers who usually produce around 100000% their small unit tactics (ditto size of armory) is roughly on par if not a little higher than the local police force
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 04, 2013, 01:34:17 am
Hey now, just because farmers have the skills to take out crows and the occasional coyote with a Winchester, it totally follows that they could work as a team against people who rely on their skill at violence for a living and have almost certainly fought side by side on numerous occasion, and probably have at least semi-decent quality weapons.

I mean, are you seriously suggesting bandits are smarter than crows?  Ridiculous.
no you got it all wrong! bandits are definately smarter than crows but farmers are smarter than bandits
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Pæs on December 04, 2013, 01:54:57 am

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?
about a dozen and in all honesty it's a long, long way from perfect, we are barely able to produce 50% of what we consume.
However I am fully aware of "inherent laziness" and feel confident that were I no longer to be blessed with the lifetime efforts of god knows how many third world chumps the 50% could quickly become 200

As for the the real farmers who usually produce around 100000% their small unit tactics (ditto size of armory) is roughly on par if not a little higher than the local police force

What country are you from, simple farmboy turned warrior-king? I am from New Zealand which is MADE of farmers and their small unit tactics are limited to convincing dogs to chase sheep and pummeling each other in bar brawls.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2013, 03:03:27 am

How many acres do you farm?

And how much training do these farmers you know do in small unit tactics?
about a dozen and in all honesty it's a long, long way from perfect, we are barely able to produce 50% of what we consume.
However I am fully aware of "inherent laziness" and feel confident that were I no longer to be blessed with the lifetime efforts of god knows how many third world chumps the 50% could quickly become 200

As for the the real farmers who usually produce around 100000% their small unit tactics (ditto size of armory) is roughly on par if not a little higher than the local police force

"We?"

You wouldn't happen to be in Texas, would you?

Also, you're full of shit.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2013, 03:04:13 am

What country are you from, simple farmboy turned warrior-king? I am from New Zealand which is MADE of farmers and their small unit tactics are limited to convincing dogs to chase sheep and pummeling each other in bar brawls.

Bullshitlandia.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2013, 03:06:03 am
Oh, yes, France.  Known for well-armed farmers.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Ben Shapiro on December 04, 2013, 07:32:11 am
One man against 30.  It could happen.   :lulz:

Because, you know, they're going to attack when he's ready for them, machine gun loaded, in his bunker.  Not when he's out working the fields or asleep or anything.

Because bandits fight fair.  It's right in their code of ethics.

When the farmer runs out of bullets, he will then resort to his extensive kung fu training, with which he filled all those long, long hours of downtime that farmers are saddled with.

The HFT do it all the time!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on December 04, 2013, 09:20:53 am
Ah yes, France, that nation with so many problems with bandits swarming over the Belgian, Swiss, Italian, German and Spainish borders.

Hotbeds of instability and criminality, one and all.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 04, 2013, 09:21:04 am
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 04, 2013, 01:53:14 pm
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.

Um, it can also mean increasing the money supply so that a novel has a higher value than a piece of candy, for example.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on December 04, 2013, 02:00:43 pm
(http://www.marriedtothesea.com/120413/beauty-of-bitcoin.gif)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 04, 2013, 08:40:19 pm
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.

Um, it can also mean increasing the money supply so that a novel has a higher value than a piece of candy, for example.
I already consider this a complicated subject and that isn't helping me.
Now, by 'increasing the money supply' I assume you mean printing more money?
How does increasing the money supply make novels more expensive than candy?
Why are you assuming they weren't more expensive already?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 06, 2013, 11:06:23 am
Also, you're full of shit.

What country are you from, simple farmboy turned warrior-king? I am from New Zealand which is MADE of farmers and their small unit tactics are limited to convincing dogs to chase sheep and pummeling each other in bar brawls.

Bullshitlandia.

I can't help but feel this discussion is getting a little off topic and as much as I enjoy defending my integrity (and the fighting skills of french farmers) to a band of faceless Discordian avatars would it be ok with you guys if we got back to economics?

I still maintain that the current economic system is deeply flawed.
This assumption is based on my observation of the highly innefficient and volatile distribution of labour and resources.
I beleive this is because we are using an economic system which was formulated on the philosophies of Adam Smith and Thomas Hobbes both undoubtedly intelligent men but who happened to lived on an earth which was very very different to the one we live in today.
For those who disagree I would like to know why? That is "Why is the current system not inefficient or volatile?" not "I can't think of a better one"
Admitting there is a problem is the first step towards finding a solution. Looking at an inefficent/immature/outdated process and simply stating 'well I can't think of a better way to do this therefore the current way MUST be the BEST way" is tantamount to a crime against evolution and not a very healthy way of thinking if you believe in the continued survival of the human race.

p.s. If anyone is genuinely interested in my personal life rather than the fine sport of NoobBaiting I'd be more than happy to answer any questions and send you some photos of the farm via email or PM.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 06, 2013, 11:08:45 am
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.

That makes sense. So I guess that means we should be looking for a system that's harder to tamper with, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the idea behind the gold standard?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 06, 2013, 12:29:24 pm
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.

That makes sense. So I guess that means we should be looking for a system that's harder to tamper with, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the idea behind the gold standard?
Hmmm, not comparing gold to fiat but gold is no longer as stable a standard as it used to be. New techniques are continuously being implemented to mine more gold destabilizing the input of gold into the market and thus the goldprice. Add to that the huge size of the economy (as understood by those who buy and sell currencies for profit1) being used as leverage against the gold value, allowing changes not related to gold to greatly influence the price of gold. For example: If a company or corporation could boom and/or crash the economy and buy/sell gold in just the right sequence then they could make crazy amounts of money. Of course, the same technique can be used against fiat currencies.



1 perception is important here
Title: This is totally not a government honeytrap
Post by: Cain on December 18, 2013, 11:40:13 am
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/11/18/meet-the-assassination-market-creator-whos-crowdfunding-murder-with-bitcoins/

Quote
As Bitcoin becomes an increasingly popular form of digital cash, the cryptocurrency is being accepted in exchange for everything from socks to sushi to heroin. If one anarchist has his way, it’ll soon be used to buy murder, too.

Last month I received an encrypted email from someone calling himself by the pseudonym Kuwabatake Sanjuro, who pointed me towards his recent creation: The website Assassination Market, a crowdfunding service that lets anyone anonymously contribute bitcoins towards a bounty on the head of any government official–a kind of Kickstarter for political assassinations. According to Assassination Market’s rules, if someone on its hit list is killed–and yes, Sanjuro hopes that many targets will be–any hitman who can prove he or she was responsible receives the collected funds.

For now, the site’s rewards are small but not insignificant. In the four months that Assassination Market has been online, six targets have been submitted by users, and bounties have been collected ranging from ten bitcoins for the murder of NSA director Keith Alexander and 40 bitcoins for the assassination of President Barack Obama to 124.14 bitcoins–the largest current bounty on the site–targeting Ben Bernanke, chairman of the Federal Reserve and public enemy number one for many of Bitcoin’s anti-banking-system users. At Bitcoin’s current rapidly rising exchanges rate, that’s nearly $75,000 for Bernanke’s would-be killer.

Kuwabatake Sanjuro is, of course, the ronin hero of the story Yojimbo, who poses as a bodyguard to play corrupt warlords against each other and cause the factions to kill each other off.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on December 18, 2013, 12:33:49 pm
Is it that people are that ignorant of one of the 20th century's greatest filmmakers, or is that a bit TOO obvious?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Pæs on December 18, 2013, 09:36:43 pm
"bounties have been collected" is misleading wording if nobody has been assassinated yet.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on December 18, 2013, 10:44:27 pm
Coinbase fucked up a transaction of $38,000 dollars and delayed it since last Saturday.

One: because of the volatility of the currency the person got fucked on the new rates.

Two: They had no way of telling that something went wrong with the transaction.

That is assuming everything is above board because it certainly isn't possible that coinbase could be trying something illegal.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on December 19, 2013, 04:05:49 am
Ok, as someone who works in the financial sector, I can't believe this hadn't occurred to me before: if exchange rules haven't been set, it's all open to interpretation.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 19, 2013, 04:59:26 am
Ok, as someone who works in the financial sector, I can't believe this hadn't occurred to me before: if exchange rules haven't been set, it's all open to interpretation.

YEP.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2013, 08:53:52 am
"bounties have been collected" is misleading wording if nobody has been assassinated yet.

Yeah, I thought that too.

Also reinforces my suspicion this is a honeytrap.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on December 19, 2013, 08:57:20 am
Charles Stross also wrote an article (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html#rssowlmlink) on his blog about BitCoin and why it is a bad idea recently:

Quote
Like all currency systems, Bitcoin comes with an implicit political agenda attached. Decisions we take about how to manage money, taxation, and the economy have consequences: by its consequences you may judge a finance system. Our current global system is pretty crap, but I submit that Bitcoin is worst.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on December 19, 2013, 09:18:45 am
Charles Stross also wrote an article (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html#rssowlmlink) on his blog about BitCoin and why it is a bad idea recently:

Quote
Like all currency systems, Bitcoin comes with an implicit political agenda attached. Decisions we take about how to manage money, taxation, and the economy have consequences: by its consequences you may judge a finance system. Our current global system is pretty crap, but I submit that Bitcoin is worst.
Interesting.
Bitcoins do too much 'collateral' damage.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Telarus on December 19, 2013, 09:07:43 pm
Bitcoin was supposed to be beyond the reach of governments, but investors in the virtual currency are realizing that is not the case.

The price of a Bitcoin slumped Wednesday after China's largest exchange for the virtual currency said it would stop accepting deposits in yuan — China's local currency.

The much-ballyhooed Bitcoin currency has lost more than half its value since hitting records above $1,100 at the end of November. On Wednesday, the price of a Bitcoin fell 18% to $558 and traded as low as $422.50 earlier in the day, according to an index run by CoinDesk, a website focused on digital currencies.

The exchange, BTC China, had to "temporarily stop its yuan account recharging functions," according to comments it made on Weibo, a popular Chinese micro-blogging service similar to Twitter.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2013/12/18/bitcoin-price/4107831/
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on December 20, 2013, 12:03:52 am
Its even been proven that the anonymity aspect of it is completely false, so pretty much all of its core principles have been invalidated.

Saw this on tumblr
(https://24.media.tumblr.com/9522a1fa3c053278e909fb265d08249c/tumblr_my0hkjHkuH1qbeyf1o1_500.png)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 20, 2013, 12:43:17 am
Gone from 1000 to 500 in less than 24 hours.

There are 50 suckers on FB screeching about how they're going "all in" on the slump, since for some reason they can't seem to get authentication to get actual money OUT (gee).

 :lulz:

HERPADERP!  The product that does exactly what it says on the label.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 20, 2013, 04:56:48 pm
Gone from 1000 to 500 in less than 24 hours.

There are 50 suckers on FB screeching about how they're going "all in" on the slump, since for some reason they can't seem to get authentication to get actual money OUT (gee).

 :lulz:

HERPADERP!  The product that does exactly what it says on the label.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 25, 2013, 12:47:00 am
Hmmm, not comparing gold to fiat but gold is no longer as stable a standard as it used to be. New techniques are continuously being implemented to mine more gold destabilizing the input of gold into the market and thus the goldprice. Add to that the huge size of the economy (as understood by those who buy and sell currencies for profit1) being used as leverage against the gold value, allowing changes not related to gold to greatly influence the price of gold. For example: If a company or corporation could boom and/or crash the economy and buy/sell gold in just the right sequence then they could make crazy amounts of money. Of course, the same technique can be used against fiat currencies.
1 perception is important here

Obviously gold is no longer a valid option and there are at least 15 good reasons why. It's the concept I'm interested in i.e. an objective standard(weight, density... mathematical equation?) surely we can do better than this...
"Fiat money has been defined variously as:
any money declared by a government to be legal tender.[1]
state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.[2]
money without intrinsic value.[3][4]"


Meanwhile what happened old uncle roger? The conversation was just starting to get interesting and you disengage like some kind of frightened rodent...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:38:34 am


Meanwhile what happened old uncle roger? The conversation was just starting to get interesting and you disengage like some kind of frightened rodent...

What the fuck are you talking about, asshole?

I didn't disengage from shit.  But I can promise you a very "interesting" conversation from this point forward, asswart.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:47:05 am
Wisa1 hasn't replied yet.  That must, by his own standards, mean he has disengaged like some form of vermin.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on December 25, 2013, 02:51:43 am
haha and we're back still awaiting a response to this post

I can't help but feel this discussion is getting a little off topic and as much as I enjoy defending my integrity (and the fighting skills of french farmers) to a band of faceless Discordian avatars would it be ok with you guys if we got back to economics?

I still maintain that the current economic system is deeply flawed.
This assumption is based on my observation of the highly innefficient and volatile distribution of labour and resources.
I beleive this is because we are using an economic system which was formulated on the philosophies of Adam Smith and Thomas Hobbes both undoubtedly intelligent men but who happened to lived on an earth which was very very different to the one we live in today.
For those who disagree I would like to know why? That is "Why is the current system not inefficient or volatile?" not "I can't think of a better one"
Admitting there is a problem is the first step towards finding a solution. Looking at an inefficent/immature/outdated process and simply stating 'well I can't think of a better way to do this therefore the current way MUST be the BEST way" is tantamount to a crime against evolution and not a very healthy way of thinking if you believe in the continued survival of the human race.

p.s. If anyone is genuinely interested in my personal life rather than the fine sport of NoobBaiting I'd be more than happy to answer any questions and send you some photos of the farm via email or PM.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:53:31 am
haha and we're back still awaiting a response to this post


Balls.  That isn't the conversation you just asked for.

This one is.  Asshole.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:54:28 am
The rest of us are talking about bitcoin.  You came in tonight looking for something else entirely.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:56:34 am
Also, you have 4 minutes remaining to change that NSFW avatar.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 02:58:24 am
tick, tock
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 25, 2013, 03:00:55 am
Banned, avatar removed.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: inode_buddha on December 25, 2013, 03:48:48 am
I still don't understand why increase in scale = inflation I would actually be extremely grateful if you could explain this one for me(no sarcasm intended).
Let's just leave it at people are complicated stupid assholes. This leads to changes in perceived value. This leads to people doing complicated stupid assholish things to money (think of stocks or investing capital but not time and hogging all the results of other people's labor, or some of the more complicated tricks banks pulled that are fucking is over now). The effects of this gets bigger with increased scale. people cheating to make themselves richer lead to inflation, people cheating to make themselves poorer lead to deflation. People are slightly more cunning than stupid so ergo inflation.

That makes sense. So I guess that means we should be looking for a system that's harder to tamper with, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this is the idea behind the gold standard?
Hmmm, not comparing gold to fiat but gold is no longer as stable a standard as it used to be. New techniques are continuously being implemented to mine more gold destabilizing the input of gold into the market and thus the goldprice. Add to that the huge size of the economy (as understood by those who buy and sell currencies for profit1) being used as leverage against the gold value, allowing changes not related to gold to greatly influence the price of gold. For example: If a company or corporation could boom and/or crash the economy and buy/sell gold in just the right sequence then they could make crazy amounts of money. Of course, the same technique can be used against fiat currencies.



1 perception is important here

Isn't this basically what the Rothschilds did? I'm not really up on this part of history...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Wisa1 on January 01, 2014, 04:42:07 pm
Banned, avatar removed.
yet despite your best efforts I'm back and drunk to boot!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on January 01, 2014, 05:00:14 pm
Banned, avatar removed.
yet despite your best efforts I'm back and drunk to boot!

Yeah but don't push it, he was right to ban you. Next time you wont be back.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on January 01, 2014, 05:13:26 pm
Banned, avatar removed.
yet despite your best efforts I'm back and drunk to boot!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the rest of the admin team agreed with the decision.

But please, keep making an arse of yourself.  It'll just make it that much easier to go for a permament ban the next time you decide to be an idiot.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 01, 2014, 05:58:33 pm
Banned, avatar removed.
yet despite your best efforts I'm back and drunk to boot!

Okay, I banned you because you violated one of the 6 rules, and refused to fix the problem.

Now I WANT to ban you.  I won't until you do something ban worthy, but I'll be paying attention now.  Not because of your stupid post-begging happy dance, but because I hate a sloppy drunk.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on January 06, 2014, 10:07:22 am
Amusing developments abound.

"Coinye West" due to launch soon, Because another crypto currency is the best way to solve existing problems.

There's this too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25617931

Quote
The value of Bitcoin has topped $1,000 (£610) again after social gaming firm Zynga said it would start accepting the virtual currency as a payment option.

Zynga is perhaps the most significant video games firm to accept bitcoins to date
#

Quote
Alan Greenspan, former US Federal Reserve chairman, has called the rapid rise a "bubble".

A randroid who presided over various bubbles including the sub-prime one would know.

Back to the first part, Zynga accepting it. I suspect this is equal parts Zynga's shitty and failing business model looking to get any additional revenue it can. What's going to be interesting here is if Zynga (And by extenstion, Facebook) convert Bitcoins to cash and the mechanisms they use to do so.

If the intention is not to convert to cash, then I'm not exactly sure of the goal here.I doubt they can acquire enough to manipulate or control the market and that seems pointless again if the goal is not to cash out.

I am starting to suspect a few high level Zynga/facebook execs threw a significant sum at bitcoin pre-crash and are using company statements to inflate the price so they can then cash out at comparable levels losing little or making a small amount before dropping the company stance on bitcoin. If the policy changes in a month or so I'd put money on this being the motivation.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on January 08, 2014, 08:48:48 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25647913

Quote
The developers of a new virtual currency originally called "Coinye West" have launched it despite receiving a legal threat from the celebrity who inspired its name.

Musician Kanye West's lawyer had sent them a cease and desist letter saying: "Consumers are likely to mistakenly believe that Mr West is the source of your services

Quote
"There's been a number of people who have put out 'joke' currencies in the past," said Johnathan Turrall, chief technology officer at Metalair, a start-up developing currency exchange software at the University of Sussex.

"In one case, the original developers launched on obscure websites, but when they took it mainstream, and the price spiked, they sold up and disappeared."

You know, we might just be missing a trick here.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on January 28, 2014, 12:23:19 pm
My house mate is doing the bitcoin thing and lately he has been asking me questions like 'do you want to make X amount of money with no effort?'
My answer usually is 'No. I don't like money.'  though i do that mostly to annoy him.
Yesterday i asked what he was offering and he was talking about buying one virtual currency that he thinks he can exchange for bitcoins and following that by selling the bitcoins.
With my money, yeah NO. I don't trust this shit and if people are getting rich then someone else is getting fucked, I'm just trying to make sure I don't run that risk.

PD halp, how do i esplain to my housemate that he shouldn't borrow money to do thiskind of stupid shit? Borrowing is for houses, cars, medical bills or education. Those are the only options, the rest you pay out of your paycheck.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on January 28, 2014, 02:02:25 pm
He has a gambling addiction and should be treated accordingly.

Also if that one virtual currency is the dogecoin it's been subject to price fixing and pump/dump schemes and he going to get fucked if he has invested in it.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on January 28, 2014, 02:10:22 pm
He has a gambling addiction and should be treated accordingly.

Also if that one virtual currency is the dogecoin it's been subject to price fixing and pump/dump schemes and he going to get fucked if he has invested in it.
So far he has just put in around 100-150 euro, afaik, doing that and playing with it is fine by me, that is just a hobby. But i'll take your advice to heart,  gambling problems are quite serious and would fit his spending pattern. I need to become quite harsh when it comes to money then. I'd prefer not to play the hardass but it is for both his and my own good.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on January 28, 2014, 02:35:00 pm
Gambling addiction was the wrong word sorry.
100 - 150 isn't a problem as long as its within his means, but if he is talking about get rich schemes it does sound like he enjoying the novelty of it rather than approaching this with any kind of plan.

To mitigate risk and ground his notions for it he needs to follow a few basic rules:

Never borrow for this, even for small amounts.
Never put in more than he is willing to lose all of.
Set a target*, have an exit strategy and a rough end time. The natural feeling when something is doing well is that it will do better, this feeling will last right until the price crashes.
Accept his losses. If it doesn't work and he loses his money chances are it wont be better the next time. Plan when to buy again, if to ever buy again.

*Setting  a reasonable target and a timeframe allows you to exit and measure your success. 15 -20 % is good returns, not exactly get rich quick but the higher your target the higher your risk.

If making money on this is what he wants to then he is probably barking up the wrong tree. Bitcoin is incredibly volatile, as it's infrastructure, a whim of the courts and his investment is suddenly worthless.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 29, 2014, 06:40:06 am
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on January 29, 2014, 08:18:44 am
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Dogecoin is worse than the bit coin, it's pricehas been deliberately driven down by a pack of clowns on IRC, it's like all the problems of bitcoin with shady activities that will stop it ever being recognised as legitimate.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7126153
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on January 29, 2014, 08:47:47 am
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Like this?
https://www.casascius.com/
Quote
Casascius Bitcoins are physical coins you can hold - and each one is worth real digital bitcoins.


However, due to myriad legal issues:
Quote
As of Nov 27, 2013, I suspended sales of items that contain digital bitcoins.  Current items for sale do not contain bitcoins.

I wonder, would a physical launch followed by an online/open mining system be open to more or less manipulation?

I suppose the other avenue open at this point would be just crank out a bunch of different ones and run them like HYIP's with a different face.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 29, 2014, 05:42:39 pm
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Dogecoin is worse than the bit coin, it's pricehas been deliberately driven down by a pack of clowns on IRC, it's like all the problems of bitcoin with shady activities that will stop it ever being recognised as legitimate.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7126153

Yeah, but at least it's funny.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 29, 2014, 05:43:52 pm
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Like this?
https://www.casascius.com/
Quote
Casascius Bitcoins are physical coins you can hold - and each one is worth real digital bitcoins.


However, due to myriad legal issues:
Quote
As of Nov 27, 2013, I suspended sales of items that contain digital bitcoins.  Current items for sale do not contain bitcoins.

I wonder, would a physical launch followed by an online/open mining system be open to more or less manipulation?

I suppose the other avenue open at this point would be just crank out a bunch of different ones and run them like HYIP's with a different face.

No, like a physical alternative currency that's not connected with bitcoin in any way. But is funny. I would buy shit that was funny.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 29, 2014, 06:15:04 pm
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Like this?
https://www.casascius.com/
Quote
Casascius Bitcoins are physical coins you can hold - and each one is worth real digital bitcoins.


However, due to myriad legal issues:
Quote
As of Nov 27, 2013, I suspended sales of items that contain digital bitcoins.  Current items for sale do not contain bitcoins.

I wonder, would a physical launch followed by an online/open mining system be open to more or less manipulation?

I suppose the other avenue open at this point would be just crank out a bunch of different ones and run them like HYIP's with a different face.

No, like a physical alternative currency that's not connected with bitcoin in any way. But is funny. I would buy shit that was funny.

Junkenstien is just channeling my coworkers, I think.

JUNK:  "NOVELTY CURRENCY".

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on February 01, 2014, 02:02:33 pm
Article on Naked Capitalism (http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/01/bitcoin-plays-hands-central-bankers-will-facilitate-use-negative-interest-rates.html#rssowlmlink) about how BitCoin is helping to reduce the stigma over e-money and moving towards a cashless society

Quote
If you believe the hype, you’ve been had. As Izabella Kaminska of the Financial Times tells us, you all are really just doing free/underpaid R&D for central banks, since you are debugging and building legitimacy for one of their fond projects, making currencies digital and getting rid of cash altogether.

Quote
This is important because, in the current economic climate, the introduction of a cashless society empowers central banks greatly. A cashless society, after all, not only makes things like negative interest rates possible, it transfers absolute control of the money supply to the central bank, mostly by turning it into a universal banker that competes directly with private banks for public deposits. All digital deposits become base money.

Consequently, anyone who believes Bitcoin is a threat to fiat currency misunderstands the economic context. Above all, they fail to understand that had central banks had the means to deploy e-money earlier on, the crisis could have been much more successfully dealt with.

Among the key factors that prevented them from doing so were very probable public hostility to any attempt to ban outright cash, the difficulty of implementing and explaining such a transition to the public, the inability to test-run the system before it was deployed.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 01, 2014, 04:22:26 pm
All your base are belong to us!

 I feel like some people still haven't read Jennifer Government.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on February 01, 2014, 05:15:22 pm
Great link, Cain!

It does well to see how far the ripples actually go.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 03, 2014, 02:07:43 pm
I would totally have bought some dogecoin if it had been physically printed coin.

Why isn't anyone doing THAT for alternative novelty currency? I mean, c'mon.

Like this?
https://www.casascius.com/
Quote
Casascius Bitcoins are physical coins you can hold - and each one is worth real digital bitcoins.


However, due to myriad legal issues:
Quote
As of Nov 27, 2013, I suspended sales of items that contain digital bitcoins.  Current items for sale do not contain bitcoins.

I wonder, would a physical launch followed by an online/open mining system be open to more or less manipulation?

I suppose the other avenue open at this point would be just crank out a bunch of different ones and run them like HYIP's with a different face.

No, like a physical alternative currency that's not connected with bitcoin in any way. But is funny. I would buy shit that was funny.

Junkenstien is just channeling my coworkers, I think.

JUNK:  "NOVELTY CURRENCY".

To be honest, I'm seeing a situation where eventually there's hundreds of these things kicking around all their sole purpose is to wash money. I mentioned HYIPS specifically, for anyone who's not had the chance to laugh at these yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-yield_investment_program

Quote
A high-yield investment program (HYIP) is a type of Ponzi scheme, an investment scam that promises unsustainably high return on investment by paying previous investors with the money invested by new investors. Most of these scams work from anonymous offshore bases which make them hard to track down.

With this in mind, and with how iffy the setup is anyway, I can see a business model in 5 years along the following lines:

Days before launch - Hype with a side of bullshit
Day 0 - Launch, pump price as hard and fast as possible
Day 5- Exit, walk away with profit, let currency/coin collapse or continue, it won't last a month anyway now you've crashed the price
Day 6 - While the above was happening, you've been hyping currency #2 and can move back to day 0 shortly.

Rinse, repeat and wait for regulation to catch up with you. If this isn't already happening to some extent I'd be quite surprised. Faust's earlier links seem to indicate that something exactly like this is happening now.

Somewhat unrelated, I can't see a time in the near future where society is totally cashless. Some goods and services will never take credit or debit cards and cash is the only realistic and sensible payment option.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 03, 2014, 03:18:04 pm
While thinking about HYIPS, I recalled this little gem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studiotraffic

Quote
Forums[edit]

It is significant that the program had a forum at all. Many other programs online would not do it, as a lot of them were organized scams which would run off after a certain period of time. John Horan posted regularly on Studiotraffic's forums, often every day.[2]
To date, out of the tens of thousands of forum posts, there seem to be little if none at all posts by people not being paid, and hundreds of posts by people who have been paid. The cause of this is strict moderation and anti-negativity rules in the forum - any complaints about a lack of payment were deleted as "account issues", and general negative comments resulted in banning. Adding links or sharing messages sent by admin to a user could also result in banning or instant thread deletion. Since there were a large number of moderators this usually took only moments. In this way, the forums did not present a balanced discussion of Studiotraffic and it would have been inadvisable to judge the site based on them. But on the other hand there were other forums where anyone could openly discuss Studiotraffic and it was in one of those a crusade to stop Studiotraffic started.

I'd bet actual currency that a lot of e-currency forums use this as their blueprint.

I'd also bet that this type of thing will make a comeback in the near future. There's a bullshit pitch about netfix and advertisers just waiting to take cash from people.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 26, 2014, 02:01:01 pm
Mentioned in another thread, worth adding here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-26352442

Quote
The head of troubled Bitcoin exchange MtGox has made his first statement since the service went offline.

Mark Karpeles said he was "working very hard with the support of different parties" to address issues with the service, which went offline on Tuesday.

An estimated 744,000 bitcoins - about $350m (£210m) - are believed to have been stolen thanks to a loophole in Tokyo-based MtGox's security.

Japanese authorities are investigating the company.

"I understand that ministries and agencies concerned - financial services, police and the finance ministry - are looking into the matter to learn the full scope of the issue," said Yoshihide Suga, Japan's chief cabinet secretary.

"Once we have full knowledge of what happened, we will take action if necessary."

Quote
A leaked report - which Mr Karpeles has confirmed is authentic - said the huge theft had made MtGox insolvent.

Supporters of Bitcoin as an alternative currency have said they are working together to "re-establish" trust among users and were "committed to the future of Bitcoin".

The fact that some believe that this could end well just shows you just how powerful blind optimism can be. When I was in sales I used to call people like this "True believers" as they had bought into the pitch hook, line, sinker and copy of angling times. Any evidence you presented them that this wasn't all rosy in the garden was dismissed as unimportant, irrelevant or lies.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on February 26, 2014, 02:19:34 pm
I'm still seeing comments like that. "How dare people use this as an example of why bitcoin wont work" or "people are always focusing on the negative"
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on February 26, 2014, 03:17:50 pm
You have to admit it had an extremely good run, im surprised it took so long.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on February 26, 2014, 03:23:41 pm
You have to admit it had an extremely good run, im surprised it took so long.
It's not gone yet, It will probably stick around in some form, though I'm not sure what will happen now that one guy is holding 6% of the currency.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2014, 03:37:47 pm
I'm still seeing comments like that. "How dare people use this as an example of why bitcoin wont work" or "people are always focusing on the negative"

When it comes to money, I ALWAYS focus on the negative.  We have a term, here in the Southwest, for people who focus on the positive.  We call them "rubes" or "suckers", depending on circumstances.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 26, 2014, 03:41:31 pm
You have to admit it had an extremely good run, im surprised it took so long.
It's not gone yet, It will probably stick around in some form, though I'm not sure what will happen now that one guy is holding 6% of the currency.
Scams and "Investment schemes" will proliferate around it. I won't even take bets on that.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on February 26, 2014, 08:00:16 pm
You have to admit it had an extremely good run, im surprised it took so long.
It's not gone yet, It will probably stick around in some form, though I'm not sure what will happen now that one guy is holding 6% of the currency.
Scams and "Investment schemes" will proliferate around it. I won't even take bets on that.
That one guy will soon hold more than 20% of the currency.
Soon after that things will get weird.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Pæs on February 26, 2014, 08:01:08 pm
What we learned: if you make a single target have a payout of $350m in anonymous digital currency, the strength of that anonymity protocol weakens the currency's security.

Next time we do this experiment, let's assume our systems are compromised and work from there, what is becoming the standard position for cybersecurity.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 27, 2014, 10:33:02 am
For your consideration, 2 very short videos and a quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UP1YsMlrfF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GRIJ_jpmwzo

An impressive example of how not to be charismatic.

Quote
"The best part about bitcoins is that you get to watch libertarians slowly discover why financial regulations exist to begin with."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 27, 2014, 10:48:22 am
Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on February 27, 2014, 12:10:20 pm
I think I just threw up a little.  I wonder what Rands opinion of the bitcoin would have been.

My housemate was suggesting I set up the Bison dollar and try get it up to the worth of 5 British pounds.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on February 27, 2014, 12:17:47 pm
I was curious myself, so I did a bit of Googling.

Unsurprisingly, Rand was one of those "gold is money" types.  Unless the currency was backed by a tangible physical aspect, she thought it was dangerous and irresponsible.

Given Bitcoin et al are such fiat currencies that look practically imaginary when compared to central banks suggests she would not have approved.  But she was batshit insane, so who knows?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 27, 2014, 06:53:14 pm
Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/

WOW WOW WOW WOW

Amazing on SO MANY LEVELS!  :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on February 27, 2014, 07:10:08 pm
PAES/FAUST/ANYONE TECH - Please tell me you are thinking of ways to fuck with this. Not that it won't implode anyway, I'd just like to give it a helping kick if possible.

If anything was ever begging for it, it's this.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 06, 2014, 04:00:05 pm
I assume most of you have seen this...

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0306/Autumn-Radtke-bitcoin-entrepreneur-found-dead
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on March 06, 2014, 04:03:18 pm
Yeah.  Bitcoin's a shady game at that level, and stuff like this and the constant thefts are doing absolutely nothing to dispel that notion.  Even though it was probably just a suicide, how much of it may have been motivated by bitcoin-derived losses?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on March 06, 2014, 04:10:48 pm
I assume most of you have seen this...

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0306/Autumn-Radtke-bitcoin-entrepreneur-found-dead

Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that. If she killed herself I hope it wasn't over the worthless cryptocurrency, not like it matters that much why she would kill herself, theres no good reasons.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: hirley0 on March 07, 2014, 10:31:10 am
maybe 2:34 maybe not
i have taken to reading this hp?board=25?
in place of BBC, DW.de  & NHK at 7
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?board=25.0
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: inode_buddha on March 08, 2014, 12:45:33 am
Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/

WOW WOW WOW WOW

Amazing on SO MANY LEVELS!  :lulz:

The thing I love about this is, you get to sit back and watch as Libertarians slowly discover for themselves the reasons why we have banking regulations.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 08, 2014, 03:06:32 am
Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/

WOW WOW WOW WOW

Amazing on SO MANY LEVELS!  :lulz:

The thing I love about this is, you get to sit back and watch as Libertarians slowly discover for themselves the reasons why we have banking regulations.  :lulz:

It's really quite priceless!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on March 08, 2014, 03:36:04 am
Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/

WOW WOW WOW WOW

Amazing on SO MANY LEVELS!  :lulz:

The thing I love about this is, you get to sit back and watch as Libertarians slowly discover for themselves the reasons why we have banking regulations.  :lulz:

 :lulz: :lulz:

HEY!  STOP MAKING ME STOP HATING YOU!

:crankey:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Reginald Ret on March 08, 2014, 07:59:39 am
Hell, even most anarchists think banking regulations are a good thing.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 04, 2014, 11:47:31 am
http://www.theverge.com/2014/4/1/5570984/alleged-silk-road-owner-says-he-cant-be-guilty-of-money-laundering

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on April 04, 2014, 12:48:40 pm
It was classified as property, so if he wants to push to down that road at best he'll get slapped with failure to pay taxes on transaction of goods and get just as long in prison.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on April 30, 2014, 07:57:39 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELA91d_mx80

"He's making Eight million dollars of bitcoin every month"

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 10, 2014, 11:51:06 pm
ATTN PNT/FAUST:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/ars-buys-bitcoins-at-one-of-the-countrys-only-bitcoin-atms/

BOX THAT PEOPLE PUT MONEY INTO TO GET NOTHING OUT.

HELP ME HELP YOU BECOME VERY RICH.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 10, 2014, 11:58:07 pm
HA HA HA HA HA
http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/05/bitcoin-miner-maker-fires-half-its-staff-declares-were-not-scammers/

Quote
HashFast, an embattled Bitcoin mining startup, announced on Thursday that it has fired half of its employees as a way to save money.

“In order to improve our cash flow, as well as focus on ASICs, we made the difficult decision to reduce our workforce by eliminating marketing and customer service roles, as well as some engineering functions,” Amy Abascal, the company’s director of marketing, wrote in a blog post. “The total reduction was 50 percent of the current staff. This was a fiscally responsible way for us to slow our burn rate, get customers hashing, and continue developing amazing technology.”

Quote
On Tuesday, Ars profiled the San Francisco startup and chronicled the numerous arbitration cases and lawsuits that the company has pending against it. Many customers have accused the firm of outright fraud, and some are upset that when the company failed to fulfill its orders, it would not refund the amount in bitcoins as it had previously promised.
Abascal also penned a second post on Thursday, entitled: “On Why We’re Not Scammers.”
HA HA HA
http://hashfast.com/on-why-were-not-scammers/

Quote
I think it’s time to publicly address the notion that HashFast scammed our customers.  Let me tell you that nobody is lying on the beach sipping Mai Tais with your money. While that would make for a great Wolf of Wall Street type feature film, it’s simply not the reality.

“So, what the hell is going on over there?” is probably what you’re asking.  That’s a reasonable question.

We pre-sold mining systems.  Based on the immediate demand for our systems, we took those funds and invested in inventory to satisfy that demand, specifically on ASICs.  We built out our first board.  We told you that story.  That first board was a dud.  We just plain out haven’t recovered.

Our cash is tied up in inventory, but we have finally been able to begin regularly shipping again.  It’s true that we are struggling, but we are struggling to do the right thing.  As we turn our focus to chip sales, we will free up more cash to ship more systems and process more refunds.  Each lawsuit sets us back, though.

Not scammers, just incompetent. Or incompetent scammers.

Incompetence is a feature at any rate.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 11, 2014, 12:07:34 am
For your consideration, 2 very short videos and a quote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UP1YsMlrfF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GRIJ_jpmwzo

An impressive example of how not to be charismatic.

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"The best part about bitcoins is that you get to watch libertarians slowly discover why financial regulations exist to begin with."

Words fail me:
http://galtco.in/

WOW WOW WOW WOW

Amazing on SO MANY LEVELS!  :lulz:

The thing I love about this is, you get to sit back and watch as Libertarians slowly discover for themselves the reasons why we have banking regulations.  :lulz:

Is it just me or is that quote totally stolen from a few posts up?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 11, 2014, 12:26:16 am
Also wanted to mention, that despite the likely sort of replies this may generate, I quite like Bitcoin and use it often.  I never keep more than a few Bitcoins at a time (all purchased at around $30 per coin, and just traded since then, no further buying in), just in case the value drops, but I do really like the idea of taking the power of currency out of the hands of corporate bankers.

Yes, I know how that sounds.  I can already hear the replies.  Thing is, unlike some of those making posts in this thread that were totally made atop Mount Stupid (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2475), I've been researching and keeping up with Bitcoin for years.  I fully understand the risks, the sides of the debate, etc.  However, while it is of course only prudent to exercise extreme caution in an unregulated market like Bitcoin, it CAN be used very effectively as a replacement currency, and can be kept completely safe from thieves and scammers.  I get dozens of emails a day from Nigerian princes and other scammers, trying to get cash out of me.  ID theft and other shit abounds.  It gets more attention when it's Bitcoin-related, thanks to the word "Bitcoin" and all the press it's been getting in general, but that shit happens to ANY currency.

It is possible, and if you just take the time to learn (like you do when having to, oh I don't know, understand how BANKS work, what with checking and interest and all sorts of policies and fees and options, etc), Bitcoin can be stored, used, and even spent on drugs (though SilkRoad was a terrible idea from the get-go), entirely safely and anonymously.  Especially with the impending release of DarkWallet (https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/) and other similar auto-anonymous methods.

Ok this is a terribly written post and I'm tempted to just remove the whole thing with a "fuck it, nevermind" attitude, but it bothers me to see the Bitcoin thread appear so one-sided, considering the potential.  Also, one thing I notice almost everywhere, is that there is more misinformation and bad reporting on Bitcoin than accurate reporting, giving the majority of non-technical folks all sorts of wrong ideas about what it is and how it works.  And unfortunately, too many people read one or two articles and go "Oh, so that's what that bitcoin thing is, yeah it sounds stupid".  Nevermind the fact that the article in question is often completely wrong and/or biased.

I'd think a bunch of Discordians would have more Devil's Advocates standing against the popular opinion.  Guess I gotta grab the flag myself, though honestly after this post I probably wont bother.  Bitcoin conversations almost seem like pro-life vs pro-choice "conversations" or religious nutjob vs asshole athiest battles, in that people seem to already have their opinion and that's it.  In general I mean, here there's not even a battle just an echo chamber.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 11, 2014, 05:48:03 am
Also wanted to mention, that despite the likely sort of replies this may generate, I quite like Bitcoin and use it often.  I never keep more than a few Bitcoins at a time (all purchased at around $30 per coin, and just traded since then, no further buying in), just in case the value drops, but I do really like the idea of taking the power of currency out of the hands of corporate bankers.

Yeah, but into whose hands have you placed it?  If you say your own, then you obviously didn't even read the OP.

I'd think a bunch of Discordians would have more Devil's Advocates standing against the popular opinion.  Guess I gotta grab the flag myself, though honestly after this post I probably wont bother.  Bitcoin conversations almost seem like pro-life vs pro-choice "conversations" or religious nutjob vs asshole athiest battles, in that people seem to already have their opinion and that's it.  In general I mean, here there's not even a battle just an echo chamber.

Taking a stand against popular opinion only helps if popular opinion is wrong.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 11, 2014, 07:20:18 am
Also wanted to mention, that despite the likely sort of replies this may generate, I quite like Bitcoin and use it often.  I never keep more than a few Bitcoins at a time (all purchased at around $30 per coin, and just traded since then, no further buying in), just in case the value drops, but I do really like the idea of taking the power of currency out of the hands of corporate bankers.

Yeah, but into whose hands have you placed it?  If you say your own, then you obviously didn't even read the OP.

I read the OP, and it was well written enough to deserve a full response, but such a response would invariably be as long as that big ass article is and tbh I can't be assed to do it myself.  I like Bitcoin but I'm far from evangelical about it, especially so much so to take on that article, even if I really think it has a lot of things wrong.

To answer your question, the Bitcoins are in a "cold storage" wallet that was created using vanitygen on an old laptop I don't use anymore because the wifi is broken.  The private key went into a safe physical location and the public key is on my phone.  I don't spend coins often enough to warrant a "hot wallet" so I don't bother with one.  Nor do I use any sort of exchange or service or program.

That said, while it's possible the value could drop to 0 at any moment and I don't have shit, I think the potential is worth the risk, as long as the risk is mitigated with knowledge and forethought.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on May 11, 2014, 07:58:01 am
Also wanted to mention, that despite the likely sort of replies this may generate, I quite like Bitcoin and use it often.

Ok, there is one reason to use bitcoins, its not one I would do but it's valid: putting a small amount of money in to anonymously buy drugs was the primary reason the bitcoin flourished.

It's still a flawed concept in that the anonymity doesn't exist, it is very hard to get money into bitcoin without being observed in some digital trace and there are records of every bitcoin transaction so its simply a matter of linking the transaction to a person.

Other than that there is very little that using bitcoin adds.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 12, 2014, 03:04:56 pm
I'm kind of leaning toward the pro-bitcoin camp, just a teeny bit, on account of - no matter how much of a scam it might be, it's nowhere even close to capitalism which I've been saying for years has to go. Sooner rather than later.

Bitcoin is not perfect but it's a tiny step in the right direction, toward decentralising control. This is one small area which needs to be addressed before we can tackle this utter clusterfuck we currently have going on.

Whilst there is merit in recognising ways in which new tech can be abused, this rarely turns out to be a valid argument against the tech itself. However, it does seem to generate quite a bit of angsty condemnation regardless. PD is no exception to this rule.

When human beings recognise a threat and take steps to avoid it, their brain gives them a cookie ;)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2014, 03:24:32 pm
I'm kind of leaning toward the pro-bitcoin camp, just a teeny bit, on account of - no matter how much of a scam it might be, it's nowhere even close to capitalism which I've been saying for years has to go. Sooner rather than later.

There's an analogy for this that involves swapping a clubhammer for a clawhammer for when you want to smash your junk, but I can't remember how it's worded.  Running from one scam to another isn't an answer, it's just more powerful bad signal.

Quote
Bitcoin is not perfect but it's a tiny step in the right direction, toward decentralising control.

Can't speak for Scotland, but we tried decentralized currency here in the USA, for a few years.  It was so bad, we scrapped our first constitution and started over.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on May 12, 2014, 03:28:07 pm
I'm kind of leaning toward the pro-bitcoin camp, just a teeny bit, on account of - no matter how much of a scam it might be, it's nowhere even close to capitalism which I've been saying for years has to go. Sooner rather than later.

Bitcoin is not perfect but it's a tiny step in the right direction, toward decentralising control. This is one small area which needs to be addressed before we can tackle this utter clusterfuck we currently have going on.

Whilst there is merit in recognising ways in which new tech can be abused, this rarely turns out to be a valid argument against the tech itself. However, it does seem to generate quite a bit of angsty condemnation regardless. PD is no exception to this rule.

When human beings recognise a threat and take steps to avoid it, their brain gives them a cookie ;)

I'm going to disagree, not coming from a vested interest in bitcoin, or bitcoin bashing (though that IS fun). In that I believe that because of the missteps of the bitcoin, the fact that it entered common usage primarily because of it's role in drug purchasing has tarnished the idea of decentralised currencies by making them seem farcical, volatile, insecure, and in this specific incarnation a pyramid scheme.

In doing so they have made it that much harder for a legitimate decentralised currency to be established. One step forward, two steps back and all that.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2014, 03:30:12 pm
I don't see that a decentralized currency is the answer.  I see hanging a bunch of bankers from lamp posts to be the answer, for the encouragement of the others.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on May 12, 2014, 05:21:13 pm
I don't see why you cant have both.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 12, 2014, 05:27:45 pm
I don't see why you cant have both.

To my mind, a new currency just means that people who are paid to find the loopholes will see them before the rest of us do.  Instead, keep the known system, and ruthlessly prosecute the people who are caught with their hand in the till.

Not gonna happen?  Maybe.  But no alternative currency is going to make the nut, either.  And judging from early American history (articles of confederation), it SHOULDN'T.  Between the end of the revolution and the ratification of the current constitution, our country was a mess.  Money didn't spend right, because there were dozens of different forms of it.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2014, 05:50:26 pm
P3nt, you say bitcoin is nowhere near as big a scam as capitalism.

Yet, some of the biggest proponents of unfettered capitalism are also proponents of deregulated and private currency markets ie; bitcoin.  In fact, many of the most vocal bitcoin supporters are exactly the kind of crude American lolbertarians that make everyone around them cringe with their full-throttled support of unfettered capitalism - including other libertarians.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on May 12, 2014, 07:57:13 pm
I don't see why you cant have both.

To my mind, a new currency just means that people who are paid to find the loopholes will see them before the rest of us do.  Instead, keep the known system, and ruthlessly prosecute the people who are caught with their hand in the till.

Not gonna happen?  Maybe.  But no alternative currency is going to make the nut, either.  And judging from early American history (articles of confederation), it SHOULDN'T.  Between the end of the revolution and the ratification of the current constitution, our country was a mess.  Money didn't spend right, because there were dozens of different forms of it.
I imagine it would almost certainly be a disaster and that the first thing that would happen would be a derailment by banking institutions, property developers and the like. Not that they would to dismantle or weaken it, but to exploit it for their own gains, I can imagine a bank would be the FIRST to jump on an opportunity to circumvent regulation.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on May 12, 2014, 07:58:08 pm
Rumour has it some banks may have quietly encouraged bitcoin as a test run for their own digital currencies.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on May 12, 2014, 08:04:36 pm
That wouldn't surprise me in the least. The banking crash led to a few paltry regulations on banks but the only one that really spit in their eye was capping bonus's. If a fast method existed of transferring assets into bitcoin and back would act as the perfect loophole to circumvent both the bonus rule and a million and one other things that they can't get away with at the moment.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 12, 2014, 08:06:35 pm
I get what everyone's saying about this having been attempted before but two things were very different now.

The first thing - Quality of Life. The industrial revolution that sorta morphed into the technological revolution has made us much more comfortable, in a relativistic sense, when taken as a global average. Basic needs are increasingly taken care of. It's no longer a subsistence planet.

The other thing is a product of that same revolution - we can come up with a fully autonomous distributed system to administer this. That system might not be bitcoin but whatever it is, it's on it's way. Wouldn't it be funny if it was already here? One of the more obscure crypto currency formats? Couple of Geeks, sitting in their uni dorm room, like how modern revolutions increasingly seem to happen?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 12, 2014, 08:51:00 pm
I'd say part of the fundamental problem with cryptocurrencies is that they're trying to solve too many problems at the same time resulting in being able to solve none.

Look at even the most basic aspect which would tempt most - The Anon currency to buy bags of drugs. Most, if not all, can't even make that claim with a straight face. When you factor in the other possible problems with scams and exploitation it just becomes untenable.



 
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 13, 2014, 07:01:59 am
The key seems to be something that inspires trust in the system itself. Couple this with a growing lack of trust in the existing setup and/or potential collapse of said system and it might be just about time for the right format to enter the picture.

What I like about bitcoin is not bitcoin, it's the fact that it hints at a viable alternative even though it doesn't exactly demonstrate it.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 13, 2014, 07:33:12 am
Can't speak for Scotland, but we tried decentralized currency here in the USA, for a few years.  It was so bad, we scrapped our first constitution and started over.

Looking that up was a very interesting history lesson.
Thank you.

--
I'd say part of the fundamental problem with cryptocurrencies is that they're trying to solve too many problems at the same time resulting in being able to solve none.

Look at even the most basic aspect which would tempt most - The Anon currency to buy bags of drugs. Most, if not all, can't even make that claim with a straight face. When you factor in the other possible problems with scams and exploitation it just becomes untenable.

But one problem it does appear to solve is the print-money-at-will governmental power, especially when fiat is created as a loan with interest owed... that whole "not enough USD exists in the world to pay all the debt in the world" problem.  Worth the other issues?  Who knows.  Bitcoin definitely ain't perfect, but neither is what we have now.  The question is which is better.

The biggest problem I see with bitcoin, leading to all the scams and most of the bullshit, is the current state of computer security.  If technology can catch up to the ability of hackers to break into systems, and protect stupid people from themselves better, bitcoin could mitigate much of its problems.  Currently however, exploits and software vulnerabilities account for a huge portion of the problem, and people falling for social engineering are the other.  Those problems aren't solvable, but they are reducible.  So how much does this situation have to improve before bitcoin is considered an improvement upon the status quo?

I think that answer is different for different folks.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 13, 2014, 09:52:34 pm
Quote
But one problem it does appear to solve is the print-money-at-will governmental power, especially when fiat is created as a loan with interest owed

Why exactly is this a problem and specifically a problem for you?

Quote
The question is which is better.

Not really, I'd say it's more important to recognize a bad option when it's being presented as a good one. Look at the financial backers of these assorted currencies. Consider who currently owns the largest share of bit coins.

Quote
If technology can catch up to the ability of hackers to break into systems, and protect stupid people from themselves better, bitcoin could mitigate much of its problems.

Good luck with that. I'm sure the trend will change any second now.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 13, 2014, 10:00:11 pm
Quote
But one problem it does appear to solve is the print-money-at-will governmental power, especially when fiat is created as a loan with interest owed

Why exactly is this a problem and specifically a problem for you?

Inflation is a problem for everyone that uses the money being endlessly inflated...

Quote from: Junkenstein
Quote
The question is which is better.

Not really, I'd say it's more important to recognize a bad option when it's being presented as a good one. Look at the financial backers of these assorted currencies. Consider who currently owns the largest share of bit coins.

Quote
If technology can catch up to the ability of hackers to break into systems, and protect stupid people from themselves better, bitcoin could mitigate much of its problems.

Good luck with that. I'm sure the trend will change any second now.

Point and Point, though the people who own the largest share of USD aren't any better than those who own the most bitcoins, and with bitcoins, it's far less of a landslide.

"good option" or "bad option" isn't what I think the comparison should be.  "Better" or "Worse" than current, is more useful I think.  I still think Bitcoin can be better than what we are using now.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on May 13, 2014, 10:25:09 pm
Funny, the US had a higher rate of inflation before it adopted the current financial model it operates under.  Centralised banks, while terrible in many respects, are actually, compared to other historical methods, much better at controlling inflation.

And let's not pretend bitcoin's own deflation is any less economically troubling.  In fact it is much more so, and there is compelling evidence for deflationary debt theory.  In fact, a deflationary spiral perfectly describes the state of the economy post-2008, when deflationary debt is considered as a key cause.

But, you know, Hong Kong prospered after the Asian Financial Crisis (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EG04Ad04.html), so obviously deflation's not an issue.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on May 13, 2014, 10:28:26 pm
Fucking economics, how does it work?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on May 13, 2014, 10:31:29 pm
Magnets, uh Austrian fascist sympathisers, uh guys who admire Pinochet as the model of effective government, uh glorious selfish visionaries who will take their ball home if you fail to recognise their genuis you moocher.

Maths or something, I guess.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 13, 2014, 10:32:14 pm
So the problem is inflation? And you think this will be less of a problem within a system with currently no real checks or balances and an arbitrary inflation/distribution mechanism? And this sounds like a better system because why? The only places I can see such kind of currencies having a real use would be in economies already FUBAR'd. Zimbabwe springs to mind. That said, it still solves nothing to solve the underlying problem of nation states largely needing/wanting control of currency to stop internal economies turning to shit.

Quote
I still think Bitcoin can be better than what we are using now

Have you even read this thread? I ask as the problems are, well, there's a fucking few and I can't see how you get to this conclusion at all.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on May 13, 2014, 10:33:21 pm
Magnets, uh Austrian fascist sympathisers, uh guys who admire Pinochet as the model of effective government, uh glorious selfish visionaries who will take their ball home if you fail to recognise their genuis you moocher.

Maths or something, I guess.

:potd:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 13, 2014, 10:44:18 pm
Funny, the US had a higher rate of inflation before it adopted the current financial model it operates under.  Centralised banks, while terrible in many respects, are actually, compared to other historical methods, much better at controlling inflation.

And let's not pretend bitcoin's own deflation is any less economically troubling.  In fact it is much more so, and there is compelling evidence for deflationary debt theory.  In fact, a deflationary spiral perfectly describes the state of the economy post-2008, when deflationary debt is considered as a key cause.

But, you know, Hong Kong prospered after the Asian Financial Crisis (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EG04Ad04.html), so obviously deflation's not an issue.

Thanks for the economic lessons, I didn't know any of this.  After looking up deflationary debt theory and your link, I agree you have a very good point I had not considered.

So the problem is inflation? And you think this will be less of a problem within a system with currently no real checks or balances and an arbitrary inflation/distribution mechanism? And this sounds like a better system because why? The only places I can see such kind of currencies having a real use would be in economies already FUBAR'd. Zimbabwe springs to mind. That said, it still solves nothing to solve the underlying problem of nation states largely needing/wanting control of currency to stop internal economies turning to shit.

I wouldn't call the bitcoin distribution mechanism arbitrary, nor do I think inflation is the only problem with the current model.

In the end I just want a better system that doesn't channel money from the bottom to the top, at least not as much as today.  After this thread though, you guys are starting to convince me it's not Bitcoin.

I still hold out some hope though that good can come of it.  I guess I haven't fully succeeded in killing off the wishful thinker inside of me, despite my best efforts.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 14, 2014, 07:00:06 am
You're a wishful thinker. Me too. What I'm hoping for is something better than capitalism which I've always seen as simply the best of a really bad bunch. They talk about "capitalist societies" and the implications of this are huge. A simple metric for exchange of goods and services actually defines and dictates the fundamental way our society works, on all levels, most not even related to the exchange of goods and services.

It's infectious and pervasive and it's going to take a pretty big cataclysm to shift the fucker. Luckily it's currently going through a pretty big cataclysm, right now, and there's some stuff on he horizon that looks like it could add grease to the wheels of it's self destruction. Changing currency is about more than changing currency - it's about changing everything.

I'll go out on a limb and say that bitcoin isn't the answer. What bitcoin is, is a demonstration of a completely different method of measurement. Problem with bitcoin is it's trying to be capitalism. The solution is something that is trying to be whatever it is that's  coming to replace capitalism.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on May 14, 2014, 12:20:05 pm
Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on May 14, 2014, 03:42:25 pm
Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.

So lets do the ultimate Operation Mindfuck and run a campaign to try and get Steven Colbert elected president.

Even if that solves nothing, still worth doing.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 14, 2014, 05:17:36 pm
Here's the thing -- Capitalism works really well so long as you can keep it under control and don't let it run it's own course.  That means regulations and oversight.  What we're seeing right now are unenforced regulations and shitty oversight, with a bunch of greedy assholes who are manipulating the markets for their own ends.

No matter what the monetary scheme, there will be greedy assholes who will try to game the system.  A given economic model in itself won't fix that problem, it takes people with guts in power to slap those fuckers around.

Capitalism can't be controlled it's an unpatched (unpatchable?) exploit - Money = power. Enough money = enough power to control the regulation and legislation governing the money itself.

This would not be possible without the consumer mantra -  more money = more stuff = a good thing. This meme is the cornerstone of consumerism which drives Capitalism to it's logical end-game - one monkey with all the bananas. Most players hit their own natural wealth ceiling, they look at people who have more and think one of two things - envy and/or resolve to get that much or more, or disdain - "Those bastards have too much." The former are "selected for" by capitalism.

This disparity in ownership and the greed factor of massive stockpiling will become irrelevant in the next couple of decades. In case nobody has noticed yet we are on a roadmap to the invention of Star-Trek Replicatorstm. Anything that can be manufactured, sold and consumed will be manufactured and consumed on the spot. There's no middleman. There's no "sold".

A molecular printer spits out any consumable on command. The only time a human gets involved is ordering then using the output. No-one sources the components, no-one assembles it, no one delivers it, no one manages the process of coordinating supply to production to order fulfilment. Who get's paid? What costs money? How does one earn money? Who's going to want to collect money? What use is it to them? These are the kinds of questions that come with replication.

The honest truth is, IMO, right now there is enough infrastructure and enough capacity to totally do away with money but it would involve the world, en masse, figuring out that if everyone gets as much as they realistically want and all they have to do is operate co-operatively, from individuals right up to corporations and governments, there should be no secrets and everything should be collaborative rather than combative.

We'd be sailing in so much abundance that none of us, from the frugal to the ultra-greedy, would even be able to get close to utilising the staggering surplus that constituted our own fair share. This doesn't happen because of the capitalism meme, itself a product of a no-longer relevant bio-survival meme that pretends everything is hard to get, like it was back when that part of our brain was being programmed.

The lie that capitalism hangs on - that there isn't enough shit to go around, is increasingly exposed in light of new production and delivery technologies regularly emerging, since the dawn of the industrial revolution. Replication is the endgame. If we haven't figured it out before then, it becomes incontrovertible with replication.

It was on starting to figure this out that capitalism started to bug me :argh!:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on May 14, 2014, 05:47:18 pm
Capitalism can't be controlled it's an unpatched (unpatchable?) exploit - Money = power. Enough money = enough power to control the regulation and legislation governing the money itself.

Sorry to interrupt you just when you started to get going, but nope.

Capitalism is a system where the means of production are controlled by private interests for profit.

What you're describing is Consumerism, which is an ideology that encourages the acquisition of goods and services in ever-greater amounts.

What I think you may actually be upset with is how particular private interests are influencing the markets.  That's not Capitalism.  That's the exploit.  Literally.

And you can find that exploit in every econimic model I can currently think of, including Communism and Barter.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on May 14, 2014, 05:49:33 pm
Quote
This disparity in ownership and the greed factor of massive stockpiling will become irrelevant in the next couple of decades. In case nobody has noticed yet we are on a roadmap to the invention of Star-Trek Replicatorstm. Anything that can be manufactured, sold and consumed will be manufactured and consumed on the spot. There's no middleman. There's no "sold".

A molecular printer spits out any consumable on command. The only time a human gets involved is ordering then using the output. No-one sources the components, no-one assembles it, no one delivers it, no one manages the process of coordinating supply to production to order fulfilment. Who get's paid? What costs money? How does one earn money? Who's going to want to collect money? What use is it to them? These are the kinds of questions that come with replication.

I'd say you're being pretty optimistic about the timescale involved though I'd be delighted if you were right. If you're talking about a full on post scarcity society, I can only think of a couple of theoretical models off-hand and both pretty much change it into a reputation/social standing tool.

The main problem before reaching this stage is getting everyone in the position of relative privilege to stop fucking over several nations and actually co-operate on a long term basis. Probably worth a new thread to discuss this further if you care to?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 16, 2014, 01:09:11 pm
"Stinks like a dead whale left on a beach all summer and it's just getting really fucking ripe" files:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27830566

Quote
The US government will auction $18m (£11m) worth of the virtual currency Bitcoin, which was seized by the FBI when it shut down the Silk Road online marketplace in October last year.

Quote
Prospective bidders will have to put forward a deposit of $200,000, and all offers must be made in cash.

The price of Bitcoin, as measured by CoinDesk, fell following news of the sale, but has since made a modest recovery.

The bidding process will begin on 27 June.

Looks to me like a nice legal way for the US government to transfer the coins into private hands leading to one investor with a near monopoly and cash for the seller. Everyone wins, apparently.

No.

What this indicates to me, if it wasn't already apparent is that you'd have to be a damn fool to go anywhere near bitcoins.

Taking bets on the eventual winner of the auction. I bet it's going to be a name we know and loathe.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2014, 01:43:24 pm
Its really funny timing,

This announcement came a day before this:

http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/06/bitcoin-security-guarantee-shattered-by-anonymous-miner-with-51-network-power/

When 51% of the bitcoins distributed network is controlled by a single entity they have the power to control how transactions are executed.

This was the Nightmare scenario that was never supposed to happen, it means the decentralized currency is no longer that.

The Gov should sell those to Ghash and give them complete control over the bitcoin network.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on June 16, 2014, 02:01:06 pm

It's kind of the equivalent of the government seizing 10 tons of krokodil, THEN auctioning it off.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2014, 02:20:24 pm
I'm not sure they will be able to find a buyer for the going rate of the bitcoin.

If they sell it off for cheap the bitcoin gets diluted and the price goes through the floor. If they try sell it for a high amount they will be stuck with it and will have effectively burned a huge pile of cash.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on June 16, 2014, 03:49:06 pm
Yeah, I was just reading about that earlier myself.  So much for "decentralised currency"...looks like another way to create a cartel outside of any regulatory power.  Which I'm not entirely convinced was not the point of the project in the first place.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Ben Shapiro on June 17, 2014, 03:30:20 am
Reading this made me lawl.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 17, 2014, 03:34:17 am
Yeah, I was just reading about that earlier myself.  So much for "decentralised currency"...looks like another way to create a cartel outside of any regulatory power.  Which I'm not entirely convinced was not the point of the project in the first place.

You call it a "cartel", I call it a Freedom-Syndicate.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 17, 2014, 05:14:21 am
Yeah, I was just reading about that earlier myself.  So much for "decentralised currency"...looks like another way to create a cartel outside of any regulatory power.  Which I'm not entirely convinced was not the point of the project in the first place.

You call it a "cartel", I call it a Freedom-Syndicate.

 :lulz: :lulz:  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on June 17, 2014, 08:46:37 am
Yeah, I was just reading about that earlier myself.  So much for "decentralised currency"...looks like another way to create a cartel outside of any regulatory power.  Which I'm not entirely convinced was not the point of the project in the first place.

You call it a "cartel", I call it a Freedom-Syndicate.

 :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 17, 2014, 09:22:30 am
I'm not sure they will be able to find a buyer for the going rate of the bitcoin.

If they sell it off for cheap the bitcoin gets diluted and the price goes through the floor. If they try sell it for a high amount they will be stuck with it and will have effectively burned a huge pile of cash.



It's kind of the equivalent of the government seizing 10 tons of krokodil, THEN auctioning it off.  :lulz:

I was wrong. Everyone does win for these exact reasons.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 20, 2014, 07:47:31 am
hxxp://www.usmarshals.gov/assets/2014/bitcoins/

One week to go to scrape together $200K deposit to even be able to bid. This also seems to put the lower level value at $67ish/ coin. I've honestly got no idea what's going to happen to the price over the next week but it sure as fuck won't be stable. 

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Telarus on June 22, 2014, 06:01:08 pm
http://thehill.com/policy/technology/209894-marshals-service-accidentally-reveals-bitcoin-bidders-identities

Quote
Marshals Service accidentally reveals bitcoin bidders’ identities
By Julian Hattem - 06/19/14 09:37 AM EDT
In a slip-up on Wednesday, the U.S. Marshals Service accidentally released the list of dozens of bidders trying to get their hands on $18 million worth of bitcoin seized by the government last year.

An agency official made a mistake common to many office workers by accidentally cc'ing 40 bidders on a message that meant to bcc the recipients.

As a result, the bidders’ email addresses become public and many of their identities were revealed, even though the auction was supposed to be anonymous.
“The message was intended to blind copy everyone with an attached document that contained frequently asked questions and answers on the subject,” Marshals spokeswoman Lynzey Donahue explained in a statement.

“The USMS apologizes for this mistake which was in no way intentional.”

Among the reported bidders revealed by the email is the public policy director at Yelp, a co-founder of bitcoin firm Coinbase and a finance professor at Rowan University.

The Marshals Service is in the process of auctioning off nearly 30,000 bitcoins that were seized from the Internet black market Silk Road when the government shut it down last year. The marketplace operated solely in bitcoin, which people can use relatively anonymously, and offered a wide range of drugs and other illicit goods.

The 12-hour auction is set to take place on June 27, and winners are due to be notified on June 30. The service is selling off nine blocks of 3,000 bitcoins each and one block of 2,656 bitcoins.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 22, 2014, 06:37:30 pm
 :lulz: It's such an amazing clusterfuck!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 22, 2014, 07:08:59 pm
Total accident  :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Telarus on June 22, 2014, 08:37:40 pm
 :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on June 22, 2014, 08:42:00 pm

"... in no way intentional..." cynical fucks  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on June 23, 2014, 02:11:57 am
 :drama1:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 09:32:12 am
Anyone stand out to you?
http://www.coindesk.com/list-possible-silk-road-bitcoin-bidders-allegedly-leaked-us-marshals/

Quote
Daniel Folkinshteyn, assistant professor at Rowan University
Barry Silbert, CEO for SecondMarket
Luther Lowe, director of public policy for Yelp
Malcolm Oluwasanmi, chairperson of Little Phoenix Investment Group
Fabrice Evangelista, quantitative arbitrage at BNP Paribas
Michal Handerhanm, co-founder and COO of Bitcoin Shop
Dave Goel, managing general partner of Matrix Capital Management
Dinuka Samarasinghe, investment professional
Chris DeMuth Jr., Rangeley Capital
Fred Ehrsam, co-founder, Coinbase
Jonathan Disner, corporate counsel at DRW Trading Group
William Brindise, head investment manager at DigitalBTC
Michael Moro, director at SecondMarket
Jennifer R. Jacoby, lawyer at WilmerHale
Sam Lee, co-founder, Bitcoins Reserve
Shem Booth-Spain, artist and musician
Avarus Corporation

There appears to be more that have been unlisted for whatever reason. I'll do some searches on those later and see if anything interesting appears.

Quote
The USMS indicated that the email was sent to anyone who had emailed to learn about the auction, and suggested that not all of the parties had necessarily expressed an interest in bidding on the bitcoins, though all expressed an interest in the process.

Also, spare your brain and don't read the comments.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 09:58:17 am
Secondmarket (two listings) is worth a look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SecondMarket

Quote
econdMarket (formerly Restricted Stock Partners) is an American online marketplace for buying and selling illiquid assets, including auction‐rate securities, bankruptcy claims, limited partnership interests, private company stock, restricted securities in public companies, structured products, and whole loans.

SecondMarket's participants include global financial institutions, hedge funds, private equity firms, mutual funds, corporations and other institutional and accredited investors.

The website was created in 2004.[1]

SecondMarket says it is the world's biggest broker of venture-backed private-company stock by the value of shares traded.

Quote
Government IOUs[edit]
SecondMarket’s government warrant market facilitates transactions in registered warrants (IOUs) issued by state governments. When the state of California issued warrants to its creditors in mid-2009, SecondMarket opened up a market place to facilitate the trading of government IOUs.[19]

Bitcoin[edit]
The Bitcoin Investment Trust (BIT) is a private, open-ended trust that derives its value solely from the price of bitcoin. It enables investors to gain exposure to the price movement of bitcoin without the challenges of buying, storing and safekeeping large quantities of bitcoins. SecondMarket acts as the custodian and the trust is audited by Ernst & Young.[4][5] The trust is managed through a subsidiary of SecondMarket.[20]

SecondMarket announced in February 2014 that it planned to open a regulated, US-based bitcoin exchange.[20] It was planning to spin off a separate company for all its Bitcoin activities.

BNP Paribas expressing an interest is worth watching given associated finanical/legal fuckery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNP_Paribas#Controversies

Quote
On 30 May 2014, The Wall Street Journal reported that the United States Department of Justice is negotiating with BNP Paribas over the size of a fine plus a possible guilty plea by the bank for violation of U.S. regulations regarding the bank's alleged evasion of sanctions on dealings with Iran. The Department of Justice reportedly wants the bank to pay the largest fine in history, US$10,000,000,000. The bank is expected to negotiate a fine of no more than US$8,000,000,000. This would still be the largest fine of this kind for violation of U.S. sanctions regulations, with the prior record being approximately US$1,500,000,000.[31]

The size of the fine exceeds the entire profit of the bank during 2013, about US$6,000,000,000, and far exceeds the amount the bank set aside for an expected U.S. fine, approximately US$1,000,000,000

Possibly looking at a way to avoid regulations violations.

Rangely Capital have difficulty understanding words as you or I use them:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/118830139/Rangeley-Capital-Best-Ideas-from-2009-through-the-end-of-2012

Quote

 Best Investment Ideas
At the beginning of each calendar year, Rangeley Capital publishes two “Best Investment Ideas” for that year. Thefollowing chart shows each idea we have published dating back to 2009, and the simple price appreciation of thatinvestment from January 1 – December 31 for that respective year.Since we began publishing our best ideas, we have never had an idea fail to earn a positive return, and ouraverage return on these ideas is over 45%

Quote
2012
Buy - Ocean Shore Holding Company (OSHC)+ 47.1%Short - Direxion 20+ Year Treasury Bull 3X (TMF) - 0.5%

Those with "bitcoin" or such as part of the name I have assumed to be of no interest or value. I would strongly suspect them to be unable to raise the required capital to complete the purchase at auction, particularly since the T+C's of it seem to demand cash within a few days.

Booth-Spain the artist/Musician appears to be a DJ of no real note. Unless he's shifting substantial levels of drugs as part of his work I can't see him having the funds, probably a "social experiment" angle but does help show that this is a list of people who expressed interest, not necessarily put up the required deposit.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 10:18:33 am
Hmm

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/company/avarus-inc-841122-65957

Quote
Status   Withdrawn (12/16/2010)

Super risky IPO for a product that has limited appeal to a niche audience at a premium price. Not really surprising that it didn't go ahead.

Who's this Howarth chap? Could he be the same Paul Howarth linked to:
http://www.graystone1.com/
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=36215974&ticker=FTER&previousCapId=34264356&previousTitle=The%20M%C3%A9zey%20Howarth%20Group%2C%20Inc
http://www.graystone1.com/projects/gorilla#

Quote
In June 2011, the Company acquired the Gorilla Project. The purchase price for the property was $44,000 USD.  The project consists of 400 hectares (one hectares equals 2.47 acres) located in Loreto, Peru (Northern Peru).   

The Gorilla Project operation involves alluvial mining of gold from the deposits of sand and gravel usually left from modern or ancient stream beds.

American Mining firm with a strong presence in Peru. I'm having to assume up to no good here because it's an American mining firm in Peru.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 10:39:24 am
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 09:58:07 pm
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.

Well I know how Im spending tonight.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 10:13:26 pm
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.

The Dark Enlightenment people are all basically role-playing trust fundies, aren't they?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 10:15:12 pm
First post in Dark Enlightenment thread:

Quote
Warning, this will exceed the intellectual capacity of most readers here. This is intended for the high IQ audience of Eric's blog.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 10:23:02 pm
Yeah, after that line I knew I'd need a couple of changes of pants to get through the first page, let alone the thread.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 10:27:04 pm
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.

The Dark Enlightenment people are all basically role-playing trust fundies, aren't they?

Its a bunch of libertarian who decided being a garden variety Ayn Rand sociopath wasnt edgy enough. Also skimming their manifesto (http://www.thedarkenlightenment.com/the-dark-enlightenment-by-nick-land/) about half of it is about the genetic inferiority of black people with mentions of "states rights" sprinkled in.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on June 23, 2014, 10:36:20 pm
Dark Enlightenment weenies are fun.

I will say this: many are surprisingly open to civil conversation, even with people they are obviously never going to convert to the "cause".  Which does make me wonder how much of their pompous posturing is a desperate plea for attention....
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 11:57:17 pm
First post in Dark Enlightenment thread:

Quote
Warning, this will exceed the intellectual capacity of most readers here. This is intended for the high IQ audience of Eric's blog.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 11:57:49 pm
Dark Enlightenment weenies are fun.

I will say this: many are surprisingly open to civil conversation, even with people they are obviously never going to convert to the "cause".  Which does make me wonder how much of their pompous posturing is a desperate plea for attention....

WON'T SOMEBODY TALK TO MEEEEEEE
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on June 24, 2014, 12:08:24 am
I know someone we could send over who is desperate for attention...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 24, 2014, 01:36:05 am
I know someone we could send over who is desperate for attention...

Ooooh... I'm sure they would LOVE her.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2014, 02:58:10 am
I know someone we could send over who is desperate for attention...

Ooooh... I'm sure they would LOVE her.

FUCK THAT.

They need KITTY PARSONS.  Poetry is good for the soul.  :)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 24, 2014, 02:58:44 am
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.

The Dark Enlightenment people are all basically role-playing trust fundies, aren't they?

Its a bunch of libertarian who decided being a garden variety Ayn Rand sociopath wasnt edgy enough. Also skimming their manifesto (http://www.thedarkenlightenment.com/the-dark-enlightenment-by-nick-land/) about half of it is about the genetic inferiority of black people with mentions of "states rights" sprinkled in.

We had one here for a bit.  "Brother Nihil".
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 24, 2014, 06:30:02 am
I just ended up in a bitcoin forum and now I'm covered in shit and dumb.

If anyone wants a link to gawp at, hxxps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=34.0

Try "politics". Notice the "Dark enlightenment" thread. Prepare to extend jaw to tabletop.

The Dark Enlightenment people are all basically role-playing trust fundies, aren't they?

Its a bunch of libertarian who decided being a garden variety Ayn Rand sociopath wasnt edgy enough. Also skimming their manifesto (http://www.thedarkenlightenment.com/the-dark-enlightenment-by-nick-land/) about half of it is about the genetic inferiority of black people with mentions of "states rights" sprinkled in.

We had one here for a bit.  "Brother Nihil".

This is gold.

I pity Westerners who have never experienced Russia, land of the free, the straight, and the sexy!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 24, 2014, 09:20:24 pm
I know someone we could send over who is desperate for attention...

Ooooh... I'm sure they would LOVE her.

FUCK THAT.

They need KITTY PARSONS.  Poetry is good for the soul.  :)

 :lulz: Oh lord. Lordy lord lord. Kitty could write them an ode or two.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2014, 09:23:33 am
Bitcoin sale has been completed, no immediate details about sale prices/buyers/anything pertinent.

Should be amusing to watch the price over the next few days, as always "stable" is not going to be a word used to describe it.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on July 01, 2014, 09:37:44 am
http://www.coindesk.com/price/

Possibly of use, probably worthless. Either way, seems like a relatively fair way of judging the apparent value of bitcoin.

Taking bets on the the price in say, a week. Currently "at" $650, I'm guessing it'll be pushing $800 with a lovely drop at around 850-900.

It'll be good to see what the auctioned coins were sold for, because if they are at anywhere near this level then someone's throwing some serious cash around. "Pump and Dump" anyone?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on July 04, 2014, 02:30:58 pm
Pyramid scheme or not I put $10 into Bitcoin awhile back, which is worth something like $45 right now, just in case it goes insane.  If Bitcoin fails, I lose $10.  If it goes super global mega whatever, I could make quite a nice chunk of change.

It's like the lottery, but I think the odds are a bit better, and I can change my mind and collect my current $35 winnings any time I want.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on July 04, 2014, 04:40:20 pm
That's very Black Swan of you.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on July 08, 2014, 03:56:28 pm
That's very Black Swan of you.

I've spent quite an enormous amount of time and effort trying to understand what you mean by this.  I suppose I'm not just smart enough.

Whipping out my best Google-Fu (or rather, duckduckgo-Fu) led me to both that recent movie, and the black swan context of logic (all swans are white, unless Australia counts for some reason).  I can't seem to find an apt context from that movie that would apply to your response, so I discounted that and am left with the only other reference I could locate, aside from all the sexual connotations at urbandictionary, which is the logic one.

So thinking on it further, all I can come up with is that you might either be saying that my post was a demonstration of the falsification of some sort of tautology, or I'm just too stupid, tired, and distracted to figure out what you meant by that.

Anyway this entire process caused me, at the same time, to revisit my opinions on the whole Bitcoin thing and realize a bit more than I did previously that there is no logic or rationalization behind my support of bitcoin like I pretend, rather I want it to succeed and make it big because I had a better-than-most chance of Bitcoin making me a millionaire, and I blew it, and now I'm jealous and want my $10 worth to hurry up and become a billion friggin dollars already.  Pretty much regardless of anything else.

I don't think this was your intention, but your response made me re-evaluate a bar of my cell that I had been avoiding staring directly at, and by doing so I learned that I don't really "believe in bitcoin" as much as I like to pretend, I just want it to make me rich =/

So thank you, LMNO.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: LMNO on July 08, 2014, 04:00:20 pm
You're welcome, even if it was unitentional.

What I was talking about was a Black Swan event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory), in regards to Nassim Nicholas Taleb's book of the same name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_(Taleb_book)), where he suggests an investment strategy of buying a few very risky shares, while leaving the majority of your investments in very stable stocks and bonds.  If the risky stock fails, you've lost very little, but if it becomes the next Apple computer, you're much, much richer.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: trix on July 08, 2014, 04:23:05 pm
You're welcome, even if it was unitentional.

What I was talking about was a Black Swan event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory), in regards to Nassim Nicholas Taleb's book of the same name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_(Taleb_book)), where he suggests an investment strategy of buying a few very risky shares, while leaving the majority of your investments in very stable stocks and bonds.  If the risky stock fails, you've lost very little, but if it becomes the next Apple computer, you're much, much richer.

Ah, thanks for that!  Yeah that was kind of the idea I was going for.  That plus being broke $10 was all I had to play with =P.

Actually that's not true, I did originally put $50 into bitcoin, but then I discovered bitcoin backjack and my gf and I blew it all gleefully like a couple of gambling addicts.  I'm the kind of idiot that will walk into a casino with $150 earmarked for a full night of gambling, and be unable to resist putting the whole damn thing down on Black 19 because WHAT IF I WON?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on July 21, 2014, 10:50:12 am
http://cthulhu.tk/

Quote
As the equinox approaches we begin the ritual; four weeks and five days long it builds until Cthulhu awakens and one worshipper is rewarded greatly!
The time draws near, the return of The Great Old One is upon us. Join us in our ritual.
During the first and second weeks of the ritual, sacrificial amounts are placed in special, once a day blocks. These blocks are a reward to the worshipper for sacrifice made. During the third and fourth weeks of the ritual the rewards build, small at first, then larger as the worship increases with fervor. During the last five days, the 'Tharanak shagg,' or "promise of dreamland," the ritual reaches final pitch and the daily special blocks are highly increased. Finally Cthulhu will return after the xxx665th offering has paid tribute to the Great Old One and he will bestow a bounty deserving of Him upon one lucky worshiper. The ritual can be repeated after six months time, following the great halving.

WILL THE RESPONSIBLE PARTY PLEASE MAKE THEMSELVES KNOWN. I HAVE MONEY FOR YOU.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on July 21, 2014, 02:24:49 pm
hxxps://qex.la/market/OFF_USD

Stunning. Taking bets on how long this lasts until it gets hacked.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on September 24, 2014, 07:42:49 am
Remember, it's not just bitcoin that's a scam, pretty much everything related to it is also a scam:

http://uk.pcmag.com/personal-finance-products/35953/news/ftc-shuts-down-bitcoin-mining-firm-butterfly-labs

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According to the FTC, however, Butterfly Labs failed to deliver bitcoin-mining computers to approximately 20,000 consumers as of September 2013. Those who did receive them, meanwhile, found them to be ineffective due to the changing nature of bitcoins.

"While more bitcoins are being mined each day, the total number of bitcoins available to mine is reduced in half each year," the FTC explained. "Combined with the fact that each new generation of computing technology used to mine bitcoins renders previous generations essentially obsolete, the delay in delivering computers to consumers meant that the bitcoin-mining computers could never generate the amount of Bitcoins that Butterfly Labs promised consumers."
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2014, 09:21:00 am
The mining is actually kind of disgusting.

It's using the GPU of a machine in some intense bruteforce calculations. It increases energy consumption of the machine and generates heat.

Now imagine that distributed over a million plus devices, there have even been malware that do so on an unsuspecting targets machine as part of a botnet.

Bitcoin is not just a worthless joke, but it's bad for the environment too.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Junkenstein on September 24, 2014, 10:19:23 am
Oh, without a doubt. When you see the various shoddy rigs idiots cobble together the main issue they have is heating/ventilation. Fans everywhere, the cost in electric alone to produce a bitcoin is probably pushing closer to the actual "value" of a bitcoin daily.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: The Johnny on September 24, 2014, 12:56:31 pm
Such wasted processing power when it could be used for important things such as brute force hacking wifi passwords... alternately, i recall some playstation thingy that clouded processing power for some kindof research and modelling, anyone remember?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2014, 01:00:45 pm
I don't know about that...but allegedly Hezbollah used Playstation 3 processors to act as guidance systems in their more sophisticated rockets.

That seems a sensible and efficient use of processing power.  And quite impressive, given how terrible the PS3 can be.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2014, 01:14:06 pm
Such wasted processing power when it could be used for important things such as brute force hacking wifi passwords... alternately, i recall some playstation thingy that clouded processing power for some kindof research and modelling, anyone remember?

There's several:
SETI (Probably less useful than bitcoin, but I'd prefer people waste CPU time with SETI than bitcoin)

and Foldit which had an excellent track record, most notably this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2014, 01:19:08 pm
I don't know about that...but allegedly Hezbollah used Playstation 3 processors to act as guidance systems in their more sophisticated rockets.

That seems a sensible and efficient use of processing power.  And quite impressive, given how terrible the PS3 can be.

It makes sense, even with sophisticated algorythms to reduce calculations you are still going to need a strong processor to crunch the calculations.

Whatever about the the PS3 Hardware is still incredibly powerful. The problems with console gaming comes from optimization.
For consoles the games are optimized well before release (as bad initial sales are worse on consoles than pc), and then slow patches that are often entirely overlooked.

On PC you can have disastrous launches and patch the fuck out of it every day if needs be and as time goes by the game becomes more and more stable. Consoles tend to reach a certain point where updates are abandoned much faster than PC games.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Cain on September 24, 2014, 01:34:55 pm
True, I was just thinking of some of the infamous bugs reported on some of the game forums I played.  Like the infamous "no more than 8 enemies spawning" problems.

Which the US military should take full advantage of.  9 pieces of chaff will totally fry those missiles, at least until they upgrade to PS4
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on September 24, 2014, 01:44:37 pm
True, I was just thinking of some of the infamous bugs reported on some of the game forums I played.  Like the infamous "no more than 8 enemies spawning" problems.

Which the US military should take full advantage of.  9 pieces of chaff will totally fry those missiles, at least until they upgrade to PS4

It's entirely down to the game optimization, Hitman blood money is nearly a decade old now and it rendered an entire Mardi Gras parade with floats and hundreds of NPC's.

It was meant to be difficult to design for though because of the weird architecture, so it would be very easy for rendering/spawning/etc bugs to creep in.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2019, 01:05:23 am
https://www.ccn.com/bloodbath-crypto-market-11-billion-in-minutes?fbclid=IwAR0DRRhZqfRq6LTvkNJ8oenV2o7munuKPki9F77i4QT59TYewSma-qH3K_4


BOOM
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 25, 2019, 03:34:32 am
On a semi-related topic, the founder of Quadriga, a Canadian cryptocurrency exchange, died recently, and $250M worth of "assets" just sort of...disappeared.  Nobody can find the passwords, or something. :lulz:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/quadriga-mystery-deepens-with-little-evidence-of-cold-wallets-containing-250m-1.5011573
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: TaylorDadly on June 29, 2019, 02:03:35 pm
On a semi-related topic, the founder of Quadriga, a Canadian cryptocurrency exchange, died recently, and $250M worth of "assets" just sort of...disappeared.  Nobody can find the passwords, or something. :lulz:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/quadriga-mystery-deepens-with-little-evidence-of-cold-wallets-containing-250m-1.5011573

I didn’t find enough information confirming everything described. But I know several facts against this theory The most important one is about the connection to HIMEOBS

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: navkat on November 08, 2020, 09:16:20 pm
Like that Liberty Dollar thing I almost lost my shirt in years ago?

We Reverend Doktors have a technical term for that sort of thing.

"Investing like a fan", which is a subcondition of "Betting like a fan".  In layman's terms, Canada Bill Jones said it best, more than a hundred years ago:  "It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."

Having BEEN a sucker is not a shameful thing.  Lessons are learned, and they are never learned for free.  They may cost you money or pride or both.  It's only shameful when you run off and make the same fucking sucker bet a second time.

Agreed.

And luckily, I didn't buy too much of the paper certificates. I bought the coins and got rid of them before it became out-and-out illegal to possess them.

My friend Karl Riele, however, committed suicide after he lost EVERYTHING. Not only did he have faith and place his bets, but he dragged a lot of loved ones and friends into the casino. Ruined his reputation, self-esteem, everything. Before the Fed took his entire life savings away and brought him up on charges, he'd established a thriving market for the things in Western NY based on his faith in the Rochester currency.

He was a very, very good, kindhearted man and until just a couple years ago, I believed, a survivor. I've known a lot of people (a LOT) who have snuffed themselves out over the last few years over far less. Karl was a shock.

Bitcoin is going to do this to people. The Fed won't tolerate competition.

Ooooh...this aged...weirdly.

Since this, 3 more friends committed suicide after the Bitcoin Bust a few years back.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 18, 2021, 04:27:19 am
We're getting pretty close to this thread looking spectacularly wrong

All going well (for a fucking shitload of us at least) we're only three months or so from the beginning of the end

All j00r economics are belong to us

Anyone holding dynocurrency a couple of years from now is in serious danger of getting burned and, even before then, you're in for a hell of a heatwave.

From what I can make out pretty much everyone using the ponzi argument (and it's ponzi they're talking about - pyramid doesn't even make sense in this context) against crypto is generally using the word "bitcoin"

Problem with "bitcoin sucks cos..." positions is that Bitcoin is pretty much established now. It's a mature, 1st gen platform, tried and tested, it does exactly one thing at this point and that's act as instantly teleportable gold. As a hedge against $1.9 trillion stimulus packages, financial fuckery, organic inflation and the like devaluing paper it's currently storing about 1/10th as much money as the shiny yellow metal and gaining. So maybe it doubles in value this year or maybe it triples or even quadruples like last year. Maybe the rabid fanboys are right and it finally does an annual 10x. Sure, there's plenty of headroom but who gives a fuck? Few more millionaires and maybe the odd trillionaire. Nothing to write home about. It's settling down, reducing in volatility by the minute. Another couple of years and you'd be as well buying bonds.

After bitcoin came Defi, in the form of Etherium. This 2nd gen technology is often mistaken as a competitor to bitcoin or even a successor. It's not. BTC is to ETH as Gold is to every networked system currently in existence that's handling any kind of transactional or contractual financial business. BTC's potential growth is limited to metal, precious stones and the rest and it's unlikely to hoover up all those markets in their entirety. Diamonds will probably remain a girls best friend for the forseeable future. ETH/Defi on the other hand has the potential to swallow up all 100-odd trillion of the global capitalism apparatus. It's the internet all over again, only this time it's money but here's the rub, ETH has some serious fucking issues.

Since the institutional investors jumped onboard at the arse end of last year, more or less doubling my portfolio in the space of a couple of months, the cracks have begun to really appear in the creaky old second gen platform. Daily trading volume across the chain has spiked like a motherfucker. And this has caused insane levels of network congestion to the point where transaction fees are spiking close to the equivalent of 100USD during the busy times. This isn't anything you'd even notice if you're shifting a couple of hundred grand but if all you want to do is buy fifteen quids worth of cryptokitty to complete your collection it's a fucking serious showstopper.

Enter third generation. Massively scalable solutions with a side order of ffs we really ought to do something about the global warming thing. Third gen solves network bandwidth, transaction fees and energy consumption in one fell swoop. Right now we have a couple of contenders in the running, shiny new, 3rd gen protocols in direct competition with Etherium but the old workhorse might not be ready for the knackers just yet. There's an upgrade in the process of being rolled out, imaginatively titled "ETH2.0" which, if it goes smoothly and arrives in time, will effectively turn ETH into a 3rd gen platform with the kind of first mover advantage that would have made the late steve Jobs piss his pants back when i-phone launched. A thriving ecosystem of dapps and smartcontracts and layer2 solutions with hundreds of billions of dollar value already locked in and trading. Those Non-Fungible Tokens you keep hearing about in the news right now? All running on Etherium network. So from here it goes one of two ways. Either the ETH2.0 rollout progresses smoothly and in a timely manner or one or more completing protocols end up replacing it.

Either way, old fashioned virtual paper and those cute little trading cards with the pictures of presidents on, those are gone. They're not really even any use as collectibles since there's fucking trillions of them in circulation and the firm that prints them keeps flooding the market with more so, as an investment, they're fucking useless cos they devalue way quicker than you can possibly "catch them all".

So no, Bitcoin isn't a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin is shaping up to be the new gold. It's also going to be the new gold standard. Yup - that concept was good enough for your grandad and the whole world has kinda gone to shit since it was dumped so it's made a comeback. I've used the term $USD a few times referring to the value of this and that token but, honestly, I hardly look at it any more. I have Sterling for paying the bills and collecting payments from clients who aren't interested in the ETH discount. I measure my holdings against BTC these days as the emerging global reserve. When the dust settles, and volatility with it, that's pretty much what we're looking at. The fed can piss and moan all they like but what they can't do is compete on profitability and a wave from the invisible middle finger of the market is the best that uncompetitive business models can ever hope to receive. You've had a nice run Benjamin, you've served us well over the centuries now will someone take this guy outside and shoot him in the head? They either rebrand as a hipster cafeteria chain or they go the same way Barnes and Noble did when young Jeff Bezos came along.

So that's my take and, yeah, I've been wrong about a few things in the past (although never with technological revolutions) so take this with the customary pinch of salt. I just wanted to point out the counter argument. If I'm right then it'd make sense to at least hedge some of your savings in this space. Yanno, just in case? Short to medium term, it's a purely speculative market right now and it's in one hell of a bubble so ffs do your research (especially with the altcoins) and don't put anything in there that you're likely to need back out in a hurry. Unfortunately, for anyone who doesn't have any spare money they can afford to lose, you're as good as fucked. Because from where I'm sitting you're going to lose it if it stays in fiat long term. We're a decade and change into yet another tech revolution and these things always leave a hell of a lot of carnage in their wake when they reach inflection.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: rong on March 18, 2021, 01:36:57 pm
how would you recommend someone go about buying and holding some bitcoin?
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 18, 2021, 06:29:49 pm
how would you recommend someone go about buying and holding some bitcoin?

If you're only interested in Bitcoin or Etherium then coinbase is dead easy. Binance has a bigger range of conversion options (other crypto tokens and exchange trading between then) but is a bit more fiddly to use.

You'll need legal photo ID like a driving license or passport for both and you'll need to take a selfie of you holding it and wait til it's verified their end. This felt a little shady and like trying to get a pornhub account or something when I did it but it's a legal requirement to prevent dodgy shit going down on their network that might get them into trouble with the SEC. Same Idea as when you sign up for a bank account only it's remote so the cashier can't see your face while you hand over the docs kinda deal.

From there just figure out how many tokens you want to buy and punch in your credit card number and either store it there for later or don't depending on how you feel about that kind of thing.

And that's pretty much it.

I'd advise you to do some research first, buy a couple of quids worth and keep an eye on the movement for a few weeks or months or whatever until you've lived through at least a couple of pumps and dumps and watched your $10 turn into $1 in the space of a day and jump up to 20 the next. The first time you wake up in the morning to find out that you've "lost" over a grand while you were sleeping can be a bit of a shock to the system. So ease in and make sure you understand how this is going to feel once you've chucked a fair chunk of your savings in there. Even though, like I said, the money I have in there is money I can ultimately live without, it's still a serious kick in the ballsack the first time you see it tank.

After you've watched the graphs for a bit on somewhere like coingecko or coinbase pro, you'll start to realise what's going on as it pingpongs between support and resistance bands and even occasionally busts through the floor then bounces back to all time highs. Right now we're in the middle of an epic bull run which means that most of the time when it dips, it dips to a higher position that it did the last dip and when it hits the top, the top is also higher so try to get your timing right and, when you finally feel you're ready to jump in with both feet, buy the next dip. It still might go down a bit further but you won't have as long to wait til it shoots back up and suddenly you're in profit. There's nothing as demoralising as sticking a couple of grand in there then watching it plummet from an ATH breakout, down to half or even a third of the value but, even if it does just hold the shit out of it. Stay frosty and wait for the uptick. This is all normal and you're going to gain long term regardless of emotional turmoil of the market.

Like any good tech revolution there are a couple of jargon words that we've come up with:

FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt like when they replaced the main character in the whitehouse pantomime and he immediately appointed some old biddy who can't work facebook to "investigate the terrorist/crime syndicate that is Bitcoin" and the market tanked as all the bubblegummers panicked left in droves.

FOMO - Fear of Missing Out - when Elon Musk announces he's just stuck 1.5 billion on Tesla's balance sheet, suddenly everyone and their dog is remortgaging the house to buy in and bitcoin tops a trillion US briefly before the overvaluation corrects as the big boys frontrun their cream off the top and then convert back in, on the inevitable resulting dip

and my personal favourite - HODL (it's not geek speak if there isn't a typo in there, right?) - Hodling is just holding and all it means is hang onto your coin while the price crashes and have a laugh at all the lesser monkey's overheated amygdala's directing their investment choices.

This guy on YT is probably worth a sub, since he explains all this shit a lot better than me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a0LGCMrjAA

Oh and in terms of onboarding I heard something about paypal enabling buying and selling of BTC only in the states. So if it's really only bitcoin you're after and you live in the US, you could try there. I wouldn't know cos I'm geo-blocked so I can't look but going by the pump we got when that announcement went out it's probably easy as hell to buy in from there.

Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: rong on March 18, 2021, 08:19:16 pm
thanks!
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 18, 2021, 10:54:40 pm
All going well (for a fucking shitload of us at least) we're only three months or so from the beginning of the end
What is the beginning of the end going to look like?  Give me a testable prediction, so that I can check in three months whether you were right or not.

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Anyone holding dynocurrency a couple of years from now is in serious danger of getting burned and, even before then, you're in for a hell of a heatwave.
There is practically nothing around here available for purchase using cryptocurrency.  The idea that cryptocurrency will supplant government-issued currency within two years is highly dubious.

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Another couple of years and you'd be as well buying bonds.
You can lose a hell of a lot buying bonds, don't you know.

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And this has caused insane levels of network congestion to the point where transaction fees are spiking close to the equivalent of 100USD during the busy times. This isn't anything you'd even notice if you're shifting a couple of hundred grand but if all you want to do is buy fifteen quids worth of cryptokitty to complete your collection it's a fucking serious showstopper.
Sounds exciting.  But to be successful, a currency needs to be boring.  It needs to be highly liquid, and it needs to have a stable value.

If a cryptocurrency is boring, it's not likely to catch anyone's interest.  But if it's not boring, it won't be successful as a currency.

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Either way, old fashioned virtual paper and those cute little trading cards with the pictures of presidents on, those are gone.
Why would they be?  I can already pay for doughnuts by waving my debit card at the plastic blob next to their till.  How would switching to a cryptocurrency make my life better?  How would it make anyone else's life better?

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they're fucking useless cos they devalue way quicker than you can possibly "catch them all".
The inflation rate isn't that bad.  Even with all the stimulus cash flowing around, I doubt we'll get up to 1980's levels.

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So that's my take and, yeah, I've been wrong about a few things in the past (although never with technological revolutions) so take this with the customary pinch of salt. I just wanted to point out the counter argument. If I'm right then it'd make sense to at least hedge some of your savings in this space. Yanno, just in case? Short to medium term, it's a purely speculative market right now and it's in one hell of a bubble so ffs do your research (especially with the altcoins) and don't put anything in there that you're likely to need back out in a hurry.
I am completely unconvinced.  I have a fair bit of free cash on hand, and I'd like to think that not buying into speculative bubbles is part of the reason for that.  I see no reason to put anything into any cryptocurrency.


After you've watched the graphs for a bit on somewhere like coingecko or coinbase pro, you'll start to realise what's going on as it pingpongs between support and resistance bands and even occasionally busts through the floor then bounces back to all time highs.
I was under the impression that "support" and "resistance" were just lines that people drew on the graph after the fact, and that they didn't have any significance in reality.  In finance, people like to construct narratives to explain what they've observed.  Often, there's no way to know if the explanations are true or not.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 19, 2021, 01:11:40 am
What is the beginning of the end going to look like?  Give me a testable prediction, so that I can check in three months whether you were right or not.

Hyperbole - guilty as charged. The beginning of the end has actually come and gone. You sound like you missed it. In 2009 Bitcoin launched at around $0.0008 per coin. That marked the start of the money exodus. At time of writing  $1,806,885,026,917 worth of money has transferred from various fiat currency platforms to blockchain. Yes, there is ebb and flow for now and probably always will be until the government banks lose the fight. At that point all the money will be on chain. This is what the end will look like. When it happens, I wouldn't like to guess. Governments can be very stubborn when they put their minds to it. I used the phrase beginning of the end to signify an acceleration of this process. Like - it's really going to fucking take off in a big way.

There is practically nothing around here available for purchase using cryptocurrency.  The idea that cryptocurrency will supplant government-issued currency within two years is highly dubious.

That's what changes around june/july. Couple of years and anyone not accepting crypto payments will be finding it as hard to turn a trade as anyone not accepting card payments does now. Couple of years. You can hold me to that.

You can lose a hell of a lot buying bonds, don't you know.

Congratulations, you caught the gag! Have a cookie.

Sounds exciting.  But to be successful, a currency needs to be boring.  It needs to be highly liquid, and it needs to have a stable value.

If a cryptocurrency is boring, it's not likely to catch anyone's interest.  But if it's not boring, it won't be successful as a currency.

Liquidity and stability are already here, just not with bitcoin. Defi platforms already host "stablecoins" tied to pretty much all the cool kid currencies. Ironically the stability of the old currencies is about to become mega wobbly only in part due to blockchain and in part due to manipulation so the stable coins will actually become less stable than the increasingly stable pure crypto options. This is to be expected. The transition doesn't really work unless all the old currencies approach zero as the value moves on chain.

Why would they be?  I can already pay for doughnuts by waving my debit card at the plastic blob next to their till.  How would switching to a cryptocurrency make my life better?  How would it make anyone else's life better?

Quite simply - it's more efficient. Tech revolutions always succeed because they are straightforwardly better at doing whatever it is they are designed to replace. Cars took over from horses because they were better at horse stuff. Microprocessors took over from buildings full of human bean counters because they were better at counting beans. The internet took over from retail because it was better at selling. Crypto is taking over from banking and finance because it's better at banking and finance. The value is in the efficiency and this translates directly to cost saving. As soon as someone can do something cheaper and faster, they outcompete their competitors, the competitors must either adopt the new method or lose the farm. Right now you wave your card and only a fraction of your money pays for donuts, the rest is skimmed off the top by middlemen who facilitate the transaction. What blockchain offers if cheaper donuts, cheaper ingredients, cheaper shipping of said ingredients. Cheaper lighting and heating in a cheaper bricks and mortar donut shoppe. With the banks out the way, everything gets cheaper. The compound effect is astronomical. 

The inflation rate isn't that bad.  Even with all the stimulus cash flowing around, I doubt we'll get up to 1980's levels.

Let's wait and see

I am completely unconvinced.  I have a fair bit of free cash on hand, and I'd like to think that not buying into speculative bubbles is part of the reason for that.  I see no reason to put anything into any cryptocurrency.

Remember the dotcom crash back in 95? Same deal. Tech revolutions always arrive with a kind of cambrian explosion of ideas. These ideas are 99% idiotic and 1% fucking paradigm shifting because humans but money is pumped into all of these ideas more or less equally, also because humans. Skepticism is always popular around these phases because only early adopters actually understand a) the technology and b) the potential. Eventually the bubble bursts and the sceptics all do that smug thing where they say - "See! Told you so! The internet was a fad! We all understood the whole thing better than the experts!" And then the entire world changes very profoundly and very suddenly and the sceptics stand there with their jaws hanging open and say "Well, yeah but nobody could have seen that coming" But we did see it coming, in large part because we were the ones who made it happen. I have no interest in convincing you, tho. It actually works out better for me long term if you remain unconvinced so lets agree to disagree and leave it there ;)

I was under the impression that "support" and "resistance" were just lines that people drew on the graph after the fact, and that they didn't have any significance in reality.  In finance, people like to construct narratives to explain what they've observed.  Often, there's no way to know if the explanations are true or not.

You should get under a new impression, that one's just straight up wrong as fuck. Human psychology and economic activity is actually much more mathematically predictable than a lot of people realise. Especially since the dawn of the microprocessor. Investment bankers and hedge funds have known this for hundreds of years and that's why they now own most of the money. It's not the inability to predict normal market trends that fucks them up it's a mixture of unsustainable criminal manipulation of the markets and black swan events. The invention of blockchain technology is such an event.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2021, 03:21:00 am
That's what changes around june/july.
What changes, exactly?  I've already asked you for a testable prediction.

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Quite simply - it's more efficient. [...] Right now you wave your card and only a fraction of your money pays for donuts, the rest is skimmed off the top by middlemen who facilitate the transaction.
How is it more efficient?
Interac fees appear to be $0.03 per transaction.  My bank doesn't charge me anything to make withdrawals, deposits, payments, or transfers.  It appears that small businesses might pay $5/month to the bank (that's the flat rate for electronic transactions; it's more if they have to move paper around).  $5 is like...one doughnut.

So who is skimming off the top here, and how much? 
In real terms, what fraction of my money is not paying for the doughnut?  I assume the transaction fees for blockchain are non-zero, so what would be the new fraction if all the transactions were done with a cryptocurrency?

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Remember the dotcom crash back in 95? Same deal. Tech revolutions always arrive with a kind of cambrian explosion of ideas. These ideas are 99% idiotic and 1% fucking paradigm shifting
Let's say then, that 99% of cryptocurrencies are going to bomb, and 1% will become a success.  Much as in the dotcom era, it doesn't make sense to invest in them at random....unless you can predict the next Microsoft, or Amazon.  I can't predict an Amazon, and I know it.  But I can rest comfortably with the knowledge that, if one of these cryptocurrencies is going to become a boon for mankind, someone else is already throwing huge amounts of money at it.  I can reap the benefits...modestly...once the dust settles.  It means I'm giving up the chance to become a multi-billionaire, but the chances were against that, anyway.

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Skepticism is always popular around these phases because only early adopters actually understand a) the technology and b) the potential. Eventually the bubble bursts and the sceptics all do that smug thing where they say - "See! Told you so! The internet was a fad! We all understood the whole thing better than the experts!"
Most of the early adopters don't know what they're getting into, any more than the skeptics who dismissed the whole thing in advance.  For every 1950s businessman who said "this data processing thing will never catch on" there's a naif who lost a fortune in a dot-com venture that went bust.  I wish to be neither of those people.

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And then the entire world changes very profoundly and very suddenly and the sceptics stand there with their jaws hanging open and say "Well, yeah but nobody could have seen that coming" But we did see it coming, in large part because we were the ones who made it happen.
Life isn't a bad kids movie.  When the skeptics turn out to be wrong, many of them pivot and try to figure out how to profit from the changing situation.  The people left with their mouths hanging open are the newscasters.

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I have no interest in convincing you, tho. It actually works out better for me long term if you remain unconvinced so lets agree to disagree and leave it there
How does it work out better for you if I'm unconvinced?  I wouldn't have thought it should have any material effect on you at all.

Really, if the whole world decided to move over to a cryptocurrency next week, then...my employer would start paying me with such, my stock portfolio would be revalued against it, and I'd transfer my cash over at the current exchange rate.   I don't see a downside to waiting for the dust to settle.  No, I won't get in "on the ground floor", but why do I need to?

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You should get under a new impression, that one's just straight up wrong as fuck. Human psychology and economic activity is actually much more mathematically predictable than a lot of people realise.
I actually have an interest in this area, so I would appreciate it if you could point me to a book, article, or lecture series discussing this.

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Especially since the dawn of the microprocessor. Investment bankers and hedge funds have known this for hundreds of years and that's why they now own most of the money. It's not the inability to predict normal market trends that fucks them up it's a mixture of unsustainable criminal manipulation of the markets and black swan events.
So...mathematically predictable, except when it isn't?  Hmm.

Hedge funds and investment bankers typically do worse than the market average, so...
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: rong on March 19, 2021, 12:03:13 pm
did a little more research and this (https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-halving-explainer) has me convinced that bitcoin will be essentially worthless within the next 10 years.

correct me if I'm wrong, but with no machines running the algorithms, bitcoin has no value.

bitcoin halving seems to disincentivise running the algorithms. 

this is different than gold in that once you've mined the gold, it exists and continues to exist.

i believe with bitcoin, there will come a time where large stakeholders will be buying computers just to run algorithms in order to maintain the value of their bitcoin.

eventually that will stop being cost effective.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2021, 02:46:26 pm
correct me if I'm wrong, but with no machines running the algorithms, bitcoin has no value.
Correct.  Without a third party to facilitate, no transactions can occur.

Quote
bitcoin halving seems to disincentivise running the algorithms. 
Maybe?  I'm not sure.  The people who run the processing infrastructure still get paid for every transaction they process.  (If you don't offer them enough, your transaction might be delayed...or not processed at all).

Quote
this is different than gold in that once you've mined the gold, it exists and continues to exist.
Also, the value placed on gold isn't purely imaginary; it has some industrial uses.

Quote
i believe with bitcoin, there will come a time where large stakeholders will be buying computers just to run algorithms in order to maintain the value of their bitcoin.

eventually that will stop being cost effective.
Seems plausible (although, they haven't been using regular computers for a while; the cost of electricity is too high to be cost-effective.  Custom hardware is necessary).
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2021, 03:25:51 pm
I'm on the "bitcoin is crap" bus, over here.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Faust on March 19, 2021, 03:30:43 pm
I no longer believe crypto is a pyramid scheme, though many different offerings were, things like bitcoin have established and other problems (such as an existential threat to the world with the Carbon and energy footprint from mining and the exchange being exponential over time) have grown.

What is the beginning of the end going to look like?  Give me a testable prediction, so that I can check in three months whether you were right or not.

Hyperbole - guilty as charged. The beginning of the end has actually come and gone. You sound like you missed it. In 2009 Bitcoin launched at around $0.0008 per coin. That marked the start of the money exodus. At time of writing  $1,806,885,026,917 worth of money has transferred from various fiat currency platforms to blockchain. Yes, there is ebb and flow for now and probably always will be until the government banks lose the fight. At that point all the money will be on chain. This is what the end will look like. When it happens, I wouldn't like to guess. Governments can be very stubborn when they put their minds to it. I used the phrase beginning of the end to signify an acceleration of this process. Like - it's really going to fucking take off in a big way.
If there is ever a systemic threat to currency the governements dont need to play fair:
In 2016 to combat tax evasion India, a population of 1.3 Bn changed their currency over night, billions in black market currency was lost right away.
Its possible to get money into crypto, but the nations will always be able to make it very hard to get it out, I dont see crypto every being able to overcome this regulation. Thats an extreme example, taxation on exchanges or regluation of anyone managing transactions will give them that long before an extreme measure is needed.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: altered on March 19, 2021, 03:31:12 pm
There's also infrastructure to consider. Like. Good luck switching rural Alaska to crypto. And Texas, since they learned the lesson very recently that when the power is out you can't use anything but cash. You aren't writing a transaction to the blockchain from the Khyber Pass.

Crypto as the money of the future is only viable in small countries with a lot of population density, so I can see why P3nt sees it as inevitable, but it's not realistic for most of the world, because poor people and rural folks need to engage in commerce too.

Blockchain as a replacement for the financial infrastructure of the world is one thing (the bonus features of Ethereum do legitimately have massive utility and something like that is a very good replacement for electronic funds transfer as we know it), but fiat currency will not go away, because it remains more useful than crypto in most circumstances no matter what happens in the future.

So. Yeah. Bitcoin and its relatives are no-hopers in the future. Blockchain has a chance, but it would replace the backend of plastic, not fiat currency.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: altered on March 19, 2021, 03:35:57 pm
All of that is of course ignoring the OTHER problems that crypto has, some of which Faust mentioned.

My issue with the idea that crypto is the future is based in the fundamental facts of surviving in reality as we know it. It loses more than it gains over fiat currency. This isn't a problem that can be solved, it's fundamental to the concepts.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 19, 2021, 05:24:25 pm
That the whole thing with the future. You're not going to be surviving in reality as you know it. Either you're not going to be surving in reality, period or that reality is going to be a whole nother kettle of fish ;)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: altered on March 19, 2021, 07:26:43 pm
I do not think a Singularity-level event is in our near future. There's no reason to believe it, none of the drivers of such a thing are reaching the point where they could shape the world.

Even if it is, unless it's a post-scarcity gay luxury space communism sort of future, it will not lead to crypto becoming a replacement for fiat currency. Anything else won't change the fundamental problems underlying crypto as a universal currency replacement. Crypto requires power and connectivity to use -- these are the barriers, and they are baked into the very concept of crypto. They're absolutely insurmountable until everyone has power and connectivity and can RELY on having those things EVEN IN AN EMERGENCY, like say, a freak ice storm stomping Texas flat. And you'd have to be a ridiculously idiotic optimist to believe that THAT future is only a few years away; that's Star Trek-tier.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: rong on March 19, 2021, 08:48:11 pm
although technically incorrect, because we are all existing in the same time (at least, i think we are).

I think it may be a better perspective to consider that we are not.  Some people live much farther into the future than others.

It also very much seems like the future is approaching at an ever increasing rate.

so, while a singularity event might not be in our near future, it is in all of our futures.  and it is closer for some than others.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2021, 09:49:25 pm
Since further discussion from P3nT is apparently not forthcoming, I'm going to quote the below for future amusement (on the odd chance I'm still on this forum in two years).

Today's date is Mar 19, 2021.

Couple of years and anyone not accepting crypto payments will be finding it as hard to turn a trade as anyone not accepting card payments does now. Couple of years. You can hold me to that.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 21, 2021, 11:14:30 pm
I do not think a Singularity-level event is in our near future. There's no reason to believe it, none of the drivers of such a thing are reaching the point where they could shape the world.

Even if it is, unless it's a post-scarcity gay luxury space communism sort of future, it will not lead to crypto becoming a replacement for fiat currency. Anything else won't change the fundamental problems underlying crypto as a universal currency replacement. Crypto requires power and connectivity to use -- these are the barriers, and they are baked into the very concept of crypto. They're absolutely insurmountable until everyone has power and connectivity and can RELY on having those things EVEN IN AN EMERGENCY, like say, a freak ice storm stomping Texas flat. And you'd have to be a ridiculously idiotic optimist to believe that THAT future is only a few years away; that's Star Trek-tier.

When did I say I thought this was going to be utopia? This is primates discovering a new technology. Think Facebook, google and amazon but infinitely more powerful. Blockchain started with currency back in 2012. Now it's moved on to all of economics and is starting to creep into contract law and government. This is bigger than just putting the banking system out of business, that's merely what happens first.

There you go chaotic - much better quote. Be a bit longer but, with a couple of miracles I'll still be here to crow 8)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 23, 2021, 02:27:08 pm
I found this interesting:

https://financialpost.com/news/economy/the-fire-has-been-lit-u-s-federal-reserves-push-for-digital-dollar-worries-wall-street

The Boston Fed, together with MIT, is developing a digital dollar; details are expected to surface around July.  This "Fedcoin" would operate alongside cash.  Fiat currency wouldn't disappear; it would take a new form.

If this is deployed, I wouldn't be surprised if it largely replaced the existing private competing cryptocurrencies as a means of exchange.  It would be stable, boring... and the government would let you pay your taxes with it.



Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 23, 2021, 03:42:30 pm
Most of these fiat-crypto projects are building on etherium. Not sure if the US are planning to go the same route but it wouldn't surprise me if they did something retarded instead
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: rong on March 26, 2021, 08:17:40 pm
Most of these fiat-crypto projects are building on etherium. Not sure if the US are planning to go the same route but it wouldn't surprise me if they did something retarded instead

It would surprise me if they didn't do something retarded
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2021, 09:46:52 am
Before I make a decision on something like this, I like to listen to as many for/against arguments as I can. I love you guys to death but regurgitated propaganda bullet points aint what I'm talking about when I say "arguments". With that in mind, this one flashed across my radar a couple of days back. Proxy wars are much more fun cos they're a lot less effort, right? Mike Green does a much better job than you guys and Pomp does a much better job than me.

Yeah, they're still talking about bitcoin so most of this is just covering basic principles that were hashed out half a decade ago but that's mainly just the clickbait factor. If they'd called it the best DeFi debate ever, they'd have been preaching to the choir and garnered a tenth of the ad impressions. Also Green wouldn't have understood the subject so wouldn't have been invited along ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA5jnK4v884 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA5jnK4v884)
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 29, 2021, 03:24:01 pm
Proxy wars are much more fun cos they're a lot less effort, right?
Nah.  Direct engagement is way more fun than watching youtube videos, and I find it's usually worth the effort.  But if you don't feel like refining your ideas in pitched battle, that's up to you; cno-brand discordianism isn't for everyone.


cno-brand discordianism may cause confusion, self-doubt, blind screaming paranoia, and mild skin rash.  Do not use together with placebo.  cno-brand discordianism may have been contaminated with nuts.  Ask your Doktor if cno-brand discordianism is right for you.
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 04, 2021, 11:40:25 pm
This week in crypto

Morgan Stanley - in.
Goldman Sachs - in - predicting $130 this year (they're nothing if not conservative)
Visa - in. Shifting USDC on Etherium network no less - go to the top of the class!
Mastercard - paddling like a bunch of little FOMO ducks trying to catch up

BTC Volatility down, no surprises there
BTC/S&P 500 correlation down, same with gold - side bonus, makes it a more attractive asset class for diverse portfolios

Mainstream adoption - never going to happen apparently :lulz:
Title: Re: Good article that details exactly why the bitcoin is a pyramid scheme
Post by: Lord Batwing Candlewaxxe on April 14, 2021, 03:38:30 pm
I haven't strictly perused the entire thread; but an old acquaintance of mine wrote what is probably the definitive work on Bitcoin history and viability, and cryptocurrencies in general.

Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain by David Gerard (https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/)

A pretty comprehensive explanation of why crypto-currencies in general, and Bitcoin in particular, are little more than a techno-libertarian pipe dream at best, and an outright scam at worst; and why they're technically not even a currency, but function more as unregulated securities.