Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:02:35 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 05:12:53 PM
FWIW: http://www.connectwithkids.com/tipsheet/2005/250_oct12/party.html
That link states such parties exist, but provides no evidence. The quotes from teenagers basically say that they took prescription drugs and shared some with their friends, at parties. That's wildly different from mixing up random pills in a bowl and popping them like smarties. The former seems to be a real and pressing concern, the latter doesn't.
No. They are different degrees. The larger point is that kids are doing this, whether it is a bunch of kids or just two are three. Kids are getting their hands on Rx drugs, that aren't for them, and are abusing them alone, and together.
QuoteBut moreover - if "pharm parties" are just another media invention, then stating them as fact seems likely to only inspire copy-cat incidences?
But it isn't an invention. Is it exaggerated perhaps in some news stories for dramatic effect? Sure, show me any news topic where that doesn't happen. But it IS real.
QuoteMind you, I don't suppose that danger is high as market forces - the limited supply kids have to prescription drugs, and the different desirability of different drugs - makes it unlikely they'd just give away their stash anyway.
I can assure you, the supply is anything but limited.
http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2005/youth-trade-drugs-at-pharming.html
QuotePrescribed Ritalin, OxyContin stolen from medicine cabinets at home, and other psychoactive prescription drugs are the stock in trade at so-called "pharming parties," where young people trade medicines and often mix pills with alcohol to get high.
Time reported July 24 that even as use of "hard" illicit drugs like heroin and cocaine has declined in recent years, abuse of narcotic painkillers and stimulants has skyrocketed. An estimated 2.3 million kids ages 12-17 abused legal medications last year, according to the Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University.
"It's a hidden epidemic," says Dr. Nicholas Pace of New York University Medical Center. "Parents don't want to admit there's a problem out there."
At pharming parties like one recently held in suburban New Jersey, painkillers like OxyContin -- which can produce a strong high, but also present a great danger of overdose -- are highly valued. "If I have something good, like Oxycontin, it might be worth two or three Xanax," said a 17-year-old at the New Jersey party. "We rejoice when someone has a medical thing, like, gets their wisdom teeth out or has back pain, because we know we'll get pills. Last year I had gum surgery, and I thought, 'Well, at least I'll get painkillers.'"
Part of the allure of prescription drugs is that they can be easier for kids to get than illicit drugs. Some trade on their own prescriptions (obtained legitimately or by faking symptoms), while others steal from family members or order drugs from online pharmacies.
"When adults and medical professionals treat medications casually, we need not be surprised that adolescents are treating them casually," said Francis Hayden, director of the adolescent mental-health center at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City.
"My friend told me to save the painkillers for when I'm drinking or getting high," says the 17-year-old at the suburban party. "I know a lot of people who live by pills. They take a pill to wake them up, another pill to put them to sleep, one to make them hungry and another to stop the hunger. Pills can dictate your life -- I've seen it."
RWHN, no one is saying that teenage prescription drug abuse is not a problem. It's well documented that kid have been abusing prescription pain killers for years now. What we are disputing is the fact that "pharm parties" are a common occurrence or an "epidemic". The idea of kids putting an assortment of pills in a bowl and popping them like candy seems very far fetched. There may be isolated incidents of that happening but there is a low probability of it being a common occurrence nationwide. It smells like media scare tactics that can often pull the focus off of the real problems that are happening. There's no reason to lie about something like this when the truth is just as scary.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:16:30 PM
http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2005/youth-trade-drugs-at-pharming.html
Notice that the quotes from the girl doesn't say anything about pharm parties, just that her friends have been sharing prescription painkillers with one another. Subtle difference, but you have to admit that it's there.
Again, not that I'm stating that these parties don't happen anytime, ever. But giving out OxyContin at these parties? They sell for pretty good money so I don't really see dealers just handing handfuls of these things around. Though, I have heard they're cheaper out west. Percs and Vics maybe since they're not as strong/pure, but even then most people are going to try to make a buck out of it if they can.
Though, I still agree it's not good for kids to be doing, whether buying them from a dealer or getting them at a "party"
Quote"My friend told me to save the painkillers for when I'm drinking or getting high," says the 17-year-old at the suburban party. "I know a lot of people who live by pills. They take a pill to wake them up, another pill to put them to sleep, one to make them hungry and another to stop the hunger. Pills can dictate your life -- I've seen it."
That sounds almost exactly like what was in one of the letters of discord.
:horrormirth:
Also, with regard to the Drug Council and related commercials, I already think that their anti-weed ones are ridiculously laughable, but that's not the subject here.
The prescription pills one that I can remember is some "drug dealer" telling parents not to blame him that their kids are using drugs because they've found an easier source right in their bathroom cabinets.
If I was a kid watching this, I'd be like "Hey! What a great idea! Instead of seeking out a drug dealer to pay money to get some weed, I'll just raid mom & dad's/grandma's/etc. medicine cabinet for free! It's so easy! Thanks commercial! I never thought of this before!"
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 08, 2009, 06:24:21 PM
RWHN, no one is saying that teenage prescription drug abuse is not a problem. It's well documented that kid have been abusing prescription pain killers for years now. What we are disputing is the fact that "pharm parties" are a common occurrence or an "epidemic". The idea of kids putting an assortment of pills in a bowl and popping them like candy seems very far fetched. There may be isolated incidents of that happening but there is a low probability of it being a common occurrence nationwide. It smells like media scare tactics that can often pull the focus off of the real problems that are happening. There's no reason to lie about something like this when the truth is just as scary.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:16:30 PM
http://www.jointogether.org/news/headlines/inthenews/2005/youth-trade-drugs-at-pharming.html
Notice that the quotes from the girl doesn't say anything about pharm parties, just that her friends have been sharing prescription painkillers with one another. Subtle difference, but you have to admit that it's there.
This.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Oh, I know. Just remarking that it's pretty counter-productive to their goals, rather than, you know, being honest.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 08, 2009, 06:24:21 PM
RWHN, no one is saying that teenage prescription drug abuse is not a problem. It's well documented that kid have been abusing prescription pain killers for years now. What we are disputing is the fact that "pharm parties" are a common occurrence or an "epidemic". The idea of kids putting an assortment of pills in a bowl and popping them like candy seems very far fetched. There may be isolated incidents of that happening but there is a low probability of it being a common occurrence nationwide. It smells like media scare tactics that can often pull the focus off of the real problems that are happening. There's no reason to lie about something like this when the truth is just as scary.
While there is, as yet, no quantitative data on the phenomenon, there have been focus groups done, and other forms of qualitative research that show it is happening. So please tell me what amount is okay and what amount is too much. I mean, if you look at all drug abuse amongst adolescents, compared to the overall adolescent population, most kids don't do drugs. So, does that mean we don't pay attention to it when it happens? No. So why is that different when we hear about kids engaging in this kind of risky behavior with Rx drugs. It's not worth concern and attention because only a small percentage are doing it?
That sounds like something a health insurance company would say about the tiny minority of people not getting health insurance. It's not an epidemic, so why do anything about it, right?
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Well, mine for starters. jackass.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Well, mine for starters. jackass.
I haven't seen any examples which don't fit that pattern - so it is an honest question.
Is there some history I'm missing here RWHN? There seems to be an awful lot of hyperbole when we seem to be in almost complete agreement.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:44:02 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Well, mine for starters. jackass.
I haven't seen any examples which don't fit that pattern - so it is an honest question.
Okay, then please list for me all of the anti-drug charities and agencies that you know of who use scare tactics to get their funding. Keeping in mind there are hundreds of agencies in America alone that specialize in substance abuse prevention and treatment. I will be awaiting your findings.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:44:02 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 06:33:45 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on October 08, 2009, 06:31:08 PM
To be honest, a lot of anti-drug commercials seem to be over the top ridiculous and/or give kids new ideas of ways to get high they might not have considered before.
Which anti-drug charities and agencies don't rely on scare/fear tactics for funding?
Well, mine for starters. jackass.
I haven't seen any examples which don't fit that pattern - so it is an honest question.
Okay, then please list for me all of the anti-drug charities and agencies that you know of who use scare tactics to get their funding. Keeping in mind there are hundreds of agencies in America alone that specialize in substance abuse prevention and treatment. I will be awaiting your findings.
The United States Justice Department, the BATF, the DEA, and the office of the Presidency.
I was thinking more along the lines of agencies, like mine, that are on the front lines actually doing the educating. And we typically develop our own curriculum and do not rely upon the federal government. That is, I assume, what fictionpuss was referring to, or maybe not.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of agencies, like mine, that are on the front lines actually doing the educating. And we typically develop our own curriculum and do not rely upon the federal government. That is, I assume, what fictionpuss was referring to, or maybe not.
I just saw "Agencies". Sorry.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:10:34 PM
Is it exaggerated perhaps in some news stories for dramatic effect? Sure, show me any news topic where that doesn't happen.
Missing women who are either not white, or unattractive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome).
You're welcome.
I just don't understand why we spend so much money and effort on keeping idiots alive until they're old enough to make more idiots.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 08, 2009, 07:24:18 PM
I just don't understand why we spend so much money and effort on keeping idiots alive until they're old enough to make more idiots.
Them hods ain't gonna carry themselves.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of agencies, like mine, that are on the front lines actually doing the educating. And we typically develop our own curriculum and do not rely upon the federal government. That is, I assume, what fictionpuss was referring to, or maybe not.
I have no problem at all with substance abuse and prevention agencies who deal on the front lines, helping people who need that help.
I do have a problem with the more memorable campaigns such as "this is your brain on drugs" or "do a line of coke and you'll have a heart attack". I understand the motivation to exaggerate and distort - but as a kid likely has friends who already have first hand accounts of drug X,Y or Z, then such fear tactics are easily identified as lies. You can debate whether this actually makes kids more likely to take drugs when they know they are being lied to, but at the very least it's a wasted opportunity for real education.
It does generate a culture of fear, and I'm not sure how you'd even begin to separate that from funding decisions. But that said, just because I don't recall seeing any adverts from anti-drug charities or agencies which didn't use scare-tactics, it doesn't mean to say that there aren't any examples out there somewhere.
For me, its an issue of evidence. I use some drugs, I hang out with people that use party drugs... Hell, I have friends that are a decade or so younger than me that play far more heavily in the drug scene than I do.
I agree 100% that kids are stealing prescription drugs and abusing them... in some cases, kids are getting prescription for drugs and sharing/selling those. I've SEEN that. In my opinion, that is a far more concerning and scary issue than all the weed in Miggs County.
Further, I agree that kids share drugs that they get.
However, since the first time I heard of pharma parties, I've never heard anyone in the scene talk about them. That seems off to me. It may only be popular in some area of the country and I just haven't experienced it.... but it doesn't sound all that reasonable. While I respect you my dear RWHN and the work you do... I must say that this sounds more like the exaggerated bullshit used by some anti-drug groups than something real... sorta like the discussion we had awhile back where someone at a conference said pot growers were sneaking drugs into the growing and spiking the product. It's just doesn't seem credible for those of us that have interacted with the real world as participants. I don't mean that as an insult either... or as a statement that rx-drugs aren't being abused or aren't a major problem.
However, again, in my limited experience with young people that do drugs... this sort of thing (if they've never experienced anything like it) seems more likely to make them think the whole Drug treatment/prevention thing is a pack of lies and a bad joke. I mean, that's how the whole "OMGZ tainted Pot" meme got treated by people I know.
Could it be happening? Sure... Is it happening? I don't know. Are the warnings considered credible by people involved in the drug scene? Doesn't seem like it from my perspective.
I think that about covers my view... :wink:
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of agencies, like mine, that are on the front lines actually doing the educating. And we typically develop our own curriculum and do not rely upon the federal government. That is, I assume, what fictionpuss was referring to, or maybe not.
I have no problem at all with substance abuse and prevention agencies who deal on the front lines, helping people who need that help.
I do have a problem with the more memorable campaigns such as "this is your brain on drugs" or "do a line of coke and you'll have a heart attack". I understand the motivation to exaggerate and distort - but as a kid likely has friends who already have first hand accounts of drug X,Y or Z, then such fear tactics are easily identified as lies. You can debate whether this actually makes kids more likely to take drugs when they know they are being lied to, but at the very least it's a wasted opportunity for real education.
It does generate a culture of fear, and I'm not sure how you'd even begin to separate that from funding decisions. But that said, just because I don't recall seeing any adverts from anti-drug charities or agencies which didn't use scare-tactics, it doesn't mean to say that there aren't any examples out there somewhere.
D.A.R.E.
End of story.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of agencies, like mine, that are on the front lines actually doing the educating. And we typically develop our own curriculum and do not rely upon the federal government. That is, I assume, what fictionpuss was referring to, or maybe not.
I have no problem at all with substance abuse and prevention agencies who deal on the front lines, helping people who need that help.
I do have a problem with the more memorable campaigns such as "this is your brain on drugs" or "do a line of coke and you'll have a heart attack". I understand the motivation to exaggerate and distort - but as a kid likely has friends who already have first hand accounts of drug X,Y or Z, then such fear tactics are easily identified as lies. You can debate whether this actually makes kids more likely to take drugs when they know they are being lied to, but at the very least it's a wasted opportunity for real education.
Yeah, here's the thing. Those ads you see on TV...they represent a tiny portion of the overall drug education that goes on in this country. Most of the education is undertaken by outfits such as my own. We are the ones schools call to come in and do the education. They don't phone up the guy who did the "this is your brain on drugs" commercials. They call the people who are actually educated and have backgrounds in the field.
QuoteIt does generate a culture of fear, and I'm not sure how you'd even begin to separate that from funding decisions.
Because the drug commercials you see on TV have nothing to do with the grant proposal I send in to the state.
QuoteBut that said, just because I don't recall seeing any adverts from anti-drug charities or agencies which didn't use scare-tactics, it doesn't mean to say that there aren't any examples out there somewhere.
But your prior statement was implying that EVERY or at least a majority of the agencies were doing so. But you don't actually have any information to back that up other than a generalized opinion based upon advertisements created by federal agencies.
Quote from: Doctor Rat Bastard on October 08, 2009, 07:28:58 PM
However, since the first time I heard of pharma parties, I've never heard anyone in the scene talk about them. That seems off to me. It may only be popular in some area of the country and I just haven't experienced it.... but it doesn't sound all that reasonable. While I respect you my dear RWHN and the work you do... I must say that this sounds more like the exaggerated bullshit used by some anti-drug groups than something real... sorta like the discussion we had awhile back where someone at a conference said pot growers were sneaking drugs into the growing and spiking the product. It's just doesn't seem credible for those of us that have interacted with the real world as participants. I don't mean that as an insult either... or as a statement that rx-drugs aren't being abused or aren't a major problem.
However, again, in my limited experience with young people that do drugs... this sort of thing (if they've never experienced anything like it) seems more likely to make them think the whole Drug treatment/prevention thing is a pack of lies and a bad joke. I mean, that's how the whole "OMGZ tainted Pot" meme got treated by people I know.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 06:37:59 PM
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 08, 2009, 06:24:21 PM
RWHN, no one is saying that teenage prescription drug abuse is not a problem. It's well documented that kid have been abusing prescription pain killers for years now. What we are disputing is the fact that "pharm parties" are a common occurrence or an "epidemic". The idea of kids putting an assortment of pills in a bowl and popping them like candy seems very far fetched. There may be isolated incidents of that happening but there is a low probability of it being a common occurrence nationwide. It smells like media scare tactics that can often pull the focus off of the real problems that are happening. There's no reason to lie about something like this when the truth is just as scary.
While there is, as yet, no quantitative data on the phenomenon, there have been focus groups done, and other forms of qualitative research that show it is happening. So please tell me what amount is okay and what amount is too much. I mean, if you look at all drug abuse amongst adolescents, compared to the overall adolescent population, most kids don't do drugs. So, does that mean we don't pay attention to it when it happens? No. So why is that different when we hear about kids engaging in this kind of risky behavior with Rx drugs. It's not worth concern and attention because only a small percentage are doing it?
That sounds like something a health insurance company would say about the tiny minority of people not getting health insurance. It's not an epidemic, so why do anything about it, right?
Hey, slow down there, buddy. I think we are talking past each other. Here's the stuff we agree on: A large number of teenagers are stealing and abusing prescription drugs from the family medicine cabinet. These kids will sometimes share these drugs with their friends during parties. The part that I disagree with is the story of kids dumping a random assortment of drugs into a community bowl, grabbing out a handful and popping them into their mouth before determining what they are. That's the only thing I was calling bullshit on because it seems implausible as an epidemic especially since there is no evidence right now to back it up. Take a chill pill, dude. ;)
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:37:08 PM
QuoteBut that said, just because I don't recall seeing any adverts from anti-drug charities or agencies which didn't use scare-tactics, it doesn't mean to say that there aren't any examples out there somewhere.
But your prior statement was implying that EVERY or at least a majority of the agencies were doing so. But you don't actually have any information to back that up other than a generalized opinion based upon advertisements created by federal agencies.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
I think it makes a difference. I recall that when I realised that my drug education had been riddled with scaremongering and misinformation, that made me feel more liberated to experiment more and make up my own damn mind.
If it's an easily detectable falsehood or exaggeration, then I think it does more harm than good, because then everything that messenger says is suspect.
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
In the long run there isn't much difference, which is why it makes no sense that they would push a questionable meme about Pharming Parties. It's better to tell the truth about what is going on rather than pushing urban legends with almost no backing. As Roger allude to, there is the DARE effect when it comes to stuff like this. If you push too many exaggerations and flat out lies you will lose all of your credibility when they discover the truth. They will think "Hey, they lied about how bad marijuana is so they must have been lying about cocaine and meth too."
i doubt it is random as well, there may be some kids doing that, but i would bet that kid are attaching social status to being knowledgeable about effects and dosages of drugs, (the kids that "knew stuff " were the cool ones way back when, and i suspect it still works like that)
if the number of kids swallowing random sized hand fulls of random prescriptions were high so would overdose and death rates, kids are surely taking risks but common sense must keep the amounts of truly random drug mixing limited
Quote from: fomenter on October 08, 2009, 08:12:38 PM
i doubt it is random as well, there may be some kids doing that, but i would bet that kid are attaching social status to being knowledgeable about effects and dosages of drugs, (the kids that "knew stuff " were the cool ones way back when, and i suspect it still works like that)
if the number of kids swallowing random sized hand fulls of random prescriptions were high so would overdose and death rates, kids are surely taking risks but common sense must keep the amounts of truly random drug mixing limited
Has anyone bothered checking with the CDC's website? They track shit like this.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.
You're splitting hairs here. Whether they are putting them in a bowl or a small pile on a table, social Rx abuse is social Rx abuse. It's the same idea. Put some Rx drugs together and treat it like a buffet. And even when they "know" what they are taking, do you really think they have any idea of what the drug is going to do to them? Sure, they know it's a Nexium pill, but do they really know what's going to happen when they take it? No. Of course not. There is no such thing as "relatively more responsible" in either scenario.
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 08, 2009, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
In the long run there isn't much difference, which is why it makes no sense that they would push a questionable meme about Pharming Parties. It's better to tell the truth about what is going on rather than pushing urban legends with almost no backing. As Roger allude to, there is the DARE effect when it comes to stuff like this. If you push too many exaggerations and flat out lies you will lose all of your credibility when they discover the truth. They will think "Hey, they lied about how bad marijuana is so they must have been lying about cocaine and meth too."
THIS EXACTLY.
QuoteIs there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs?
Is there a big difference between Saddam being an evil dictator who killed people and should probably not run a country... and Saddam having WMD's that he could shoot at friendly countries in 20 minutes?
Both say he's a bad guy and shouldn't run the country...
For me that's the key... Scary honest facts versus Scary maybes and Scary hyperbole.
I KNOW that some drugs can destroy lives, I've seen it happen. I don't want kids to think there's no risk or problem... but, if they can't trust the intel, then who will back the war?
Oh, for fuck's sake.
As far back as '92 (personal story):
Party. Alcohol. Pot. Some LSD. Maybe some coke. A handful of underage kids. Door opens, some guy comes in with that iconic amber plastic bottle with the white cap. Hands outstretched. No questions asked Small white pills placed in palms.
Does it really matter if it's a pharm party or a party with pharms?
Quote from: Iason Ouabache on October 08, 2009, 08:09:08 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
In the long run there isn't much difference, which is why it makes no sense that they would push a questionable meme about Pharming Parties.
Well, I'm not sure there is really a lot of "pushing" of the meme. Maybe on the internet and on blogs, etc., but in the actual education, most of what happens is researched. When we educate on Rx abuse we focus on the central facts around the harm it does. And we do talk about social use, which DOES happen. But it's not like we get in front of kids and start shouting about "teh evil pharm parties" or anything like that. And I haven't seen any ads on TV about them either.
QuoteIt's better to tell the truth about what is going on rather than pushing urban legends with almost no backing. As Roger allude to, there is the DARE effect when it comes to stuff like this. If you push too many exaggerations and flat out lies you will lose all of your credibility when they discover the truth. They will think "Hey, they lied about how bad marijuana is so they must have been lying about cocaine and meth too."
DARE is on the outside looking in at this point. The current trend in substance abuse prevention is evidence based strategies. All of the funding these days requires evidence based programs and practices. Which means the education that is going out now, the education not the TV ads, is based upon science and research. Meanwhile, there IS a lot of disinformation on the web, on BOTH sides of the issue. In my experience for every exaggerated claim about the evils of marijuana there are claims that heroin is no big deal.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 08, 2009, 08:13:48 PM
Quote from: fomenter on October 08, 2009, 08:12:38 PM
i doubt it is random as well, there may be some kids doing that, but i would bet that kid are attaching social status to being knowledgeable about effects and dosages of drugs, (the kids that "knew stuff " were the cool ones way back when, and i suspect it still works like that)
if the number of kids swallowing random sized hand fulls of random prescriptions were high so would overdose and death rates, kids are surely taking risks but common sense must keep the amounts of truly random drug mixing limited
Has anyone bothered checking with the CDC's website? They track shit like this.
i just took a look but i cant find/separate out overdose from recreational overdose or find kids partying specific stats .. they may be there its hard to search out for someone who is unfamiliar with the site
Quote from: fomenter on October 08, 2009, 08:12:38 PM
i doubt it is random as well, there may be some kids doing that, but i would bet that kid are attaching social status to being knowledgeable about effects and dosages of drugs, (the kids that "knew stuff " were the cool ones way back when, and i suspect it still works like that)
if the number of kids swallowing random sized hand fulls of random prescriptions were high so would overdose and death rates, kids are surely taking risks but common sense must keep the amounts of truly random drug mixing limited
Sure, you have the "pharmacists" who know what they are taking, and selling/giving away. Those are the drug addicts. They seek out what they like.
The kids who will pop whatever is in front of them are the experimenters. Eventually they'll become a "pharmacist".
Quote from: fomenter on October 08, 2009, 08:24:37 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 08, 2009, 08:13:48 PM
Quote from: fomenter on October 08, 2009, 08:12:38 PM
i doubt it is random as well, there may be some kids doing that, but i would bet that kid are attaching social status to being knowledgeable about effects and dosages of drugs, (the kids that "knew stuff " were the cool ones way back when, and i suspect it still works like that)
if the number of kids swallowing random sized hand fulls of random prescriptions were high so would overdose and death rates, kids are surely taking risks but common sense must keep the amounts of truly random drug mixing limited
Has anyone bothered checking with the CDC's website? They track shit like this.
i just took a look but i cant find/separate out overdose from recreational overdose or find kids parting specific stats .. they may be there its hard to search out for someone who is unfamiliar with the site
SAMHSA is a better site for federal stats on substance use. Be forwarned, it is a bitch to navigate.
to many acronyms :asplode:
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.
You're splitting hairs here. Whether they are putting them in a bowl or a small pile on a table, social Rx abuse is social Rx abuse. It's the same idea. Put some Rx drugs together and treat it like a buffet. And even when they "know" what they are taking, do you really think they have any idea of what the drug is going to do to them? Sure, they know it's a Nexium pill, but do they really know what's going to happen when they take it? No. Of course not. There is no such thing as "relatively more responsible" in either scenario.
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 08, 2009, 07:24:18 PM
I just don't understand why we spend so much money and effort on keeping idiots alive until they're old enough to make more idiots.
(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8266/125472891878.jpg)
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Please say you're kidding me.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.
You're splitting hairs here. Whether they are putting them in a bowl or a small pile on a table, social Rx abuse is social Rx abuse. It's the same idea. Put some Rx drugs together and treat it like a buffet. And even when they "know" what they are taking, do you really think they have any idea of what the drug is going to do to them? Sure, they know it's a Nexium pill, but do they really know what's going to happen when they take it? No. Of course not. There is no such thing as "relatively more responsible" in either scenario.
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ?? Really?
Quote from: LMNO on October 08, 2009, 08:21:31 PM
Oh, for fuck's sake.
As far back as '92 85 (personal story):
Party. Alcohol. Pot. Some LSD. A LOT OF ACID!!! Maybe some coke. A handful of underage kids. Door opens, some guy comes in with that iconic amber plastic bottle with the white cap. Hands outstretched. No questions asked Small white pills placed in palms.
Does it really matter if it's a pharm party or a party with pharms?
My changes, and I agree that kids using pharm drugs is a serious issue here in the US!!
Quote from: LMNO on October 08, 2009, 08:44:31 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Please say you're kidding me.
Not at all.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ?? Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ?? Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?
You didn't answer the question. If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do? Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking? Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment. I would additionally propose that you clearly need to do more research on the Rx abuse phenomenon because I don't think you realize how dangerous it is for someone to be taking, even one, unprescribed medication. Nevermind the fact that often times these are also being mixed with alcohol and other drugs as LMNO described. Someone can take a swig of alcohol to experiment and be okay. Someone can take a drag off a joint and be okay. But if a kid pops a Celebrex or a VIOXX, the night could end up being very short.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
There is a huge difference, actually. They may not be familiar with what they're taking, but they know the name of it, and the dosage. I've never been anywhere drugs were being ingested, even as a kid, where the question "how much do I take?" wasn't asked. Another typical question is "can I take x with y?" Speaking as an (occasional) drug user, eating a random handful of pills out of a bowl is stupid and terrifying, whereas trading a couple Xanax for an Oxycontin is, well, if not reasonable, completely plausible.
In my opinion hyperbole and sensationalism, which is what "eating random handfuls of pills like candy" sounds like, makes light of the real problem, which is kids stealing pills and swapping them at parties.
My experience thus far with 'young people & drugs' has been that (around these parts) they're using Heroin more often than anything else because it's cheaper and very easy to find in CT. The one prescription med that gets a lot of use is Suboxone.
It would appear that they're using it to ameliorate the affects of withdrawal sickness or to generally just use it as a 'breather' between buying bundles of heroin. It's like: 'I'm going to just get a couple of subs today, but I'll blow a few bags on the weekend'.
Suboxone is being bought off the street but is more likely to come via a fellow addict who has a legal script from a rehab program and is selling off spare pills to make some extra $$s on the side.
As a side point (and further to LMNO's 1992 experience*) I've known plenty of drug users who took shit they had not investigated simply because it was 'there'.
And as for kids who become 'pharmacists' my experience has been that their knowledge is partly accurate in some areas but woefully inadequate in others. It's like they know a few 'factoids' embedded within a matrix of self-justifying drug culture nonsense. Eg:
1: Meth? I'd never take it....too many chemicals and shit in it. (yes, because buying bags of heroin is an entirely safe activity).
2: Spends most of his time high but won't 'drink & drive' because, you know, it's dangerous.
3: Can tell you all sorts of interesting things about THC but has little understanding of basic physiological processes.
Maybe there are some young 'experts' out there, but much of what I've encountered has been in the :x and :facepalm: category.
* Great name for a band
I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue. News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language. Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 08:15:24 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
And while it's neither desirable or responsible for kids to be taking recreational drugs, it is relatively more responsible for kids to be swapping/trading known drugs than putting them into a bowl and grabbing random handfuls.
You're splitting hairs here. Whether they are putting them in a bowl or a small pile on a table, social Rx abuse is social Rx abuse. It's the same idea. Put some Rx drugs together and treat it like a buffet. And even when they "know" what they are taking, do you really think they have any idea of what the drug is going to do to them? Sure, they know it's a Nexium pill, but do they really know what's going to happen when they take it? No. Of course not. There is no such thing as "relatively more responsible" in either scenario.
The RX abusers that I have known read all the information that comes with the drugs. There's usually quite a bit of it, and it tells you, roughly, what is going to happen if you take more than the reccomended dosage.
That's the ones who aren't just taking opiates or barbituates, those are in common enough usage that the effects are pretty well known already.
That is relatively more responsible, knowing what you put into your body. That's a huge difference from grabbing a handful of pills out of a bowl.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:16:42 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:00:08 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 08:42:41 PM
It sounds like you're speaking from a background of "zero tolerance" - where there is no benefit to be gained from distinguishing between "stupid" and "incredibly stupid" behaviour.
So, you think I'm going to stand up in front of a bunch of kids and say, "Well, if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, at least know what you're taking." ?? Really?
1) You're not talking in front of a bunch of kids right now
2) If you give kids inferior advice, to that which you would give adults, then aren't they just going to bypass you as a source of information and go straight to the internet anyway?
You didn't answer the question. If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do? Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking? Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment.
Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
I would additionally propose that you clearly need to do more research on the Rx abuse phenomenon because I don't think you realize how dangerous it is for someone to be taking, even one, unprescribed medication. Nevermind the fact that often times these are also being mixed with alcohol and other drugs as LMNO described. Someone can take a swig of alcohol to experiment and be okay. Someone can take a drag off a joint and be okay. But if a kid pops a Celebrex or a VIOXX, the night could end up being very short.
For sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.
Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later. Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest. This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.
RWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me. Living to do it a second time does. I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:40:46 PM
I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue. News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language. Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting.
I am talking about the sensationalistic articles that use inflammatory verbiage like that, and wording that states that they put them in a bowl and eat random handfuls, while drinking alcohol. That's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2009, 09:30:21 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
There is a huge difference, actually. They may not be familiar with what they're taking, but they know the name of it, and the dosage. I've never been anywhere drugs were being ingested, even as a kid, where the question "how much do I take?" wasn't asked. Another typical question is "can I take x with y?" Speaking as an (occasional) drug user, eating a random handful of pills out of a bowl is stupid and terrifying, whereas trading a couple Xanax for an Oxycontin is, well, if not reasonable, completely plausible.
In my opinion hyperbole and sensationalism, which is what "eating random handfuls of pills like candy" sounds like, makes light of the real problem, which is kids stealing pills and swapping them at parties.
This.
www.erowid.org
www.wikipedia.com
All the drug education kids need.
maybe I can shed some light ..
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 07:56:10 PM
Is there really a big difference between a group of kids dumping Rx drugs in a bowl and swapping and a group of kids swapping a small handful of drugs? Especially when, depending on what you are taking, the first one or two pills could put you in the ER anyway? Either way what is happening is kids are randomly taking random Rx drugs without concern of what they are and what they will do to them. Seriously, we're arguing about a label when the important thing is the behavior and the negative impacts it can have on kids.
It's the "they put it in a bowl first" bit that just seems very unlikely to me. You ever noticed that where at (young) adult aged parties the hosts tend to neatly place chips, nuts in bowls and snacks onto plates etc, whereas teenagers parties simply pass some bags of chips around?
That's not to say Rx abuse is not a problem, it's just that, well you can already see it from the average reactions ITT, if the initial example sounds a bit dubious or far-fetched, people will focus on whether that particular example is true or not, instead of the real problem, which is that kids are taking Rx drugs!
It's kind of like describing the alcoholism problem by "and they pour PURE RUM in a glass filled with brown sugar, bruised mint leaves, pressed lime parts and crushed ice and a cherry on top!! and they drink it with a STRAW to prevent the mint leaves entering their mouths!!"
Which is not to say it doesn't happen, nor that alcoholism is not a problem, just that giving such a specific example gives people an excuse to dismiss it with "Pff that sounds like nonsense, everybody knows that mojito's don't have a cherry on top."
Which of course is stupid, because alcoholism is the problem, and not whether mojitos have a cherry on top or not, but that's why the devil's in the details. With mass media lying and exaggerating about so much (i mean in general, not drugs ed). there has appeared a particular strain of skeptics (of which PD.com probably contains a disproportionally large amount), especially among the younger generation. Very quick to judge, if they can even poke the tiniest hole in whatever you have to say, they will dismiss you instantly.
Why? Partly because they are information junkies and consume/are bombared with so much info every day that lightning-quick evaluation/judgement is a necessary survival skill. And partly because they have simply been had too many times and operate on a zero-tolerance bullshit policy.
And if you want to reach that group, you gotta be very very careful and accurate with what you do and what you don't tell them, because you only got a few milliseconds, you blink and
zap they're gone.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on October 08, 2009, 09:42:14 PM
The RX abusers that I have known read all the information that comes with the drugs. There's usually quite a bit of it, and it tells you, roughly, what is going to happen if you take more than the reccomended dosage.
That's the ones who aren't just taking opiates or barbituates, those are in common enough usage that the effects are pretty well known already.
That is relatively more responsible, knowing what you put into your body. That's a huge difference from grabbing a handful of pills out of a bowl.
Sorry, that's bullshit. And let's remember, the focus of this discussion is on adolescents, not adults. Some kids may read labels and have some general "knowledge" about what they
think will happen. But let's also remember, most of these Rx drugs are being taken from adults, which means they were prescribed to adults, with adult ailments, which means the prescriptions are based on ADULT body chemistry.
It is NOT going to do the same thing to a healthy 15 year old kid that it will do to a 40 year old with a specified condition. If a kid pops the wrong pill, it is very likely that they could end up in the ER that night. And that DOES happen. Throw alcohol into the mix....
No, in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this. There just isn't.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
You didn't answer the question. If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do? Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking? Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment.
Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.
That is a stupid analogy. Safe sex is, well, safe. There is no such thing as safe Rx misuse, for the reasons I stated in my response to Babylon. One pill could put you in the hospital, depending on what it is. They are prescribed to adults in adult dosages for adult ailments. And again, when this use happens in a social setting, aka a party, you can be damned sure alcohol is in the mix. What you are suggesting WILL result in death. No question about it.
QuoteFor sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.
No, indeed you are not aware of the real danger. And what I do is not as menial as "just say no". It's about educating, giving science-based facts on substance abuse. It is all researched. And from what I know, and what I've read, and what I've heard, it simply would be irresponsible to even hint to an adolescent that it would be okay to abuse Rx drugs, just so long as they know the name of the pill they are swallowing. Nevermind the facts but can you imagine the lawsuits I would be exposing my agency too? I suggest that YOU need to do some more research yourself. You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about.
Quote from: GA on October 08, 2009, 10:44:42 PM
Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later. Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest. This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.
It's because there are assumptions that everyone here is going to think the same way when it comes to drugs. And I will be frank and say that is more than a little annoying. Especially the reactions I get from some when it becomes apparent that I don't hold the same "conventional" wisdom. And it is also a little annoying when I am not afforded the same benefit of the doubt, when I speak from my experience, as other posters get in their knowledge base.
QuoteRWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me. Living to do it a second time does. I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.
This discussion has kind of snowballed and I know there isn't anywhere where I said they were "eating large handfulls of pills". I've described what I have heard about from PROFESSIONALS where kids will bring pills to a party or social situation, put them on a table or in some other manner, and sort of take turns drawing from this community stash. Sometimes they know what they are taking, sometimes not, in either case it is extremely dangerous especially where alcohol is being mixed. It's sort of the drug-using equivalent of Russian Roulette. Markedly more survivable than Russian Roulette, but, the "empty chambers" have more negative impacts on a body.
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2009, 11:30:49 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:40:46 PM
I'm not sure anyone who does legitimate work in the field is in the business of making light of this issue. News organizations will exaggerate stories and use crass phrases like "eating handfulls of pills", but anyone doing any kind of evidence-based work or research is generally more measured in their language. Yeah, in that other thread I mentioned "popping them like skittles", which was meant to mean, one at a time, but this is on a message board, I certainly don't use that kind of language in a professional setting.
I am talking about the sensationalistic articles that use inflammatory verbiage like that, and wording that states that they put them in a bowl and eat random handfuls, while drinking alcohol.
Well, when this happens in a social setting it very frequently WILL involve alcohol, so that part is not false. Again, I personally am not aware of a plethora of articles that literally write, "kids are eating them by the handful". But, then again, I read mostly articles written by professionals in the field. Not hack journalists from local newspapers. And we have no control over them. But I don't really think they are that prominent. Or maybe I just live in a state where we have more reasonable journalists, I don't know.
QuoteThat's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.
Sure. But I submit what you are describing is not all that prevalent, compared to the reasonably stories and articles and studies that describe what is happening which IS at parties. And they aren't handfulls, but even at one at a time, the dangers are very real.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 10:57:59 AM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 08, 2009, 09:43:13 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
You didn't answer the question. If you think a "zero tolerance" approach is inadequate for Rx abuse, what would you have someone like me do? Say, well if you're going to abuse Rx drugs, make sure you know what you are taking? Because that is what you are suggesting with your comment.
Or a variation thereof, yes. For similar reasons as to why I don't think abstinence-only sex-education is effective, and counter-productive when kids don't end up knowing anything about contraception.
That is a stupid analogy. Safe sex is, well, safe. There is no such thing as safe Rx misuse, for the reasons I stated in my response to Babylon. One pill could put you in the hospital, depending on what it is. They are prescribed to adults in adult dosages for adult ailments. And again, when this use happens in a social setting, aka a party, you can be damned sure alcohol is in the mix. What you are suggesting WILL result in death. No question about it.
No. The only "safe sex" is abstinence, as there are risks associated with every form of contraception. But the analogy only goes as far as "this is something your child may attempt, despite your wishes - if so, it might be better if they know enough to choose behaviour which is relatively less risky".
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 10:57:59 AM
QuoteFor sure. Look, I am aware of the danger, just from my own experiences I'm not convinced that "just say no"/zero tolerance is the best approach.
No, indeed you are not aware of the real danger. And what I do is not as menial as "just say no". It's about educating, giving science-based facts on substance abuse. It is all researched. And from what I know, and what I've read, and what I've heard, it simply would be irresponsible to even hint to an adolescent that it would be okay to abuse Rx drugs, just so long as they know the name of the pill they are swallowing. Nevermind the facts but can you imagine the lawsuits I would be exposing my agency too? I suggest that YOU need to do some more research yourself. You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about.
Bolded the parts I don't dispute, for your convenience.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 11:11:26 AM
Quote from: Nigel on October 08, 2009, 11:30:49 PM
That's so dangerous it's more or less a guarantee of at least one serious overdose per party, and articles that spread that kind of incredible hyperbole really do a disservice, IMO, to people in your line of work who are trying to find solutions to the real problem. I think people hear stories like that and tend to dismiss them out of hand, because an epidemic of kids eating mixed handfuls of unknown prescription drugs (without a commensurate epidemic of OD deaths from those parties) is fairly difficult to find plausible.
Sure. But I submit what you are describing is not all that prevalent, compared to the reasonably stories and articles and studies that describe what is happening which IS at parties. And they aren't handfulls, but even at one at a time, the dangers are very real.
I agree with this too. This is where it originated:
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 10:48:10 AM
There is this thing that some kids do where they will snag random medications from friends, family, etc., dump them all in a bowl and pop them like they are skittles. Pill Party. Also called Pharm Parties, or fish bowling.
When I ate skittles I'd take a small handful and pop them over the course of a minute or so - if I were to hazard a guess, this is where the "handfuls of pills" imagery came from.
Then what Triple Zero said, because I think he hit it on the head. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it's "okay" for kids to experiment with any amount of prescription drugs.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 11:04:33 AM
Quote from: GA on October 08, 2009, 10:44:42 PM
Fictionpuss:
Just about every new user with an opinion on drugs, (which is just about everybody, given that this site hosts the Principia Discordia,) tangles with RWHN over this sooner or later. Often, the new user makes a strong statement disparaging the work that RWHN does, without understanding what exactly it is that he does in the slightest. This is one of those "happy fun hidden deathtraps" of PD.com.
It's because there are assumptions that everyone here is going to think the same way when it comes to drugs. And I will be frank and say that is more than a little annoying. Especially the reactions I get from some when it becomes apparent that I don't hold the same "conventional" wisdom. And it is also a little annoying when I am not afforded the same benefit of the doubt, when I speak from my experience, as other posters get in their knowledge base.
I think this is because you are tending to rely on hyperbole to express your passion on this subject. You say "
in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this. There just isn't." and I immediately think something like "
So taking one known pill is not 'relatively better' than ten random pills - wtf?"
Yes either case can
kill you right dead before you make it to ER, and it is a serious issue, but with that line of argument you don't have a leg to stand upon. Which is a shame, because you obviously do know what you are talking about.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 11:04:33 AM
QuoteRWHN:
Speaking as someone with zero drug culture knowledge (I'm so square I have trouble walking through round doors), the idea of kids taking and eating a large handful of assorted, potent prescription medications doesn't seem all that farfetched to me. Living to do it a second time does. I think you'd need a lot of "filler" in the bowl to make that a survivable experience.
This discussion has kind of snowballed and I know there isn't anywhere where I said they were "eating large handfulls of pills". I've described what I have heard about from PROFESSIONALS where kids will bring pills to a party or social situation, put them on a table or in some other manner, and sort of take turns drawing from this community stash. Sometimes they know what they are taking, sometimes not, in either case it is extremely dangerous especially where alcohol is being mixed. It's sort of the drug-using equivalent of Russian Roulette. Markedly more survivable than Russian Roulette, but, the "empty chambers" have more negative impacts on a body.
That sounds entirely plausible. If you'd written this in the first place I doubt this thread would have spawned.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 12:49:34 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 08, 2009, 10:48:10 AM
There is this thing that some kids do where they will snag random medications from friends, family, etc., dump them all in a bowl and pop them like they are skittles. Pill Party. Also called Pharm Parties, or fish bowling.
When I ate skittles I'd take a small handful and pop them over the course of a minute or so - if I were to hazard a guess, this is where the "handfuls of pills" imagery came from.
Yeah, that.
It seems to me that most people responding had their doubts on the "handfuls of pills" imagery.
Which you then (mis)took as doubts on the entire problem of Rx abuse among adolescents.
are we clear now?
So this is a semantics, gotcha game. To me when you "pop" something, it is a one at a time thing. If I'm popping skittles I'm not swallowing handfuls, I am popping them, one at a time. I used "skittles" to convey the idea that kids treat the pills like they are something other than pills. Like they are candy. If I had meant to give the imagery of kids eating handfuls vs. one-at-a-time, I would've fucking said "handfuls".
Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 12:49:34 PM
No. The only "safe sex" is abstinence, as there are risks associated with every form of contraception. But the analogy only goes as far as "this is something your child may attempt, despite your wishes - if so, it might be better if they know enough to choose behaviour which is relatively less risky".
No. Because when it comes to kids using unprescribed medications, that were prescribed to adults, there is no such thing as "relatively less risky". There just isn't. And then there is the other problem that you are not considering which is this little thing we in the field call
validation. As soon as you validate their use, in anyway, you've lost them. If you give them a hint that some level of Rx abuse is "okay", you've lost them. And even if you say "less harmful", they will still translate that into "okay". And what do kids do? They test boundaries. So if you set up some arbitrary bullshit line of how it is okay to use Rx drugs, they will test and cross that line. Guaran-fucking-teed! What you are suggesting is playing with fire.
QuoteThen what Triple Zero said, because I think he hit it on the head. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it's "okay" for kids to experiment with any amount of prescription drugs.
Um, no, actually you said that as long as they know what they are taking, it is less risky. And when you say something like that to a kid you ARE saying it is okay. Remember, the human brain takes a long time to fully develop. It is still developing well into our mid 20's. This means kids don't have the same decision-making capacity that adults do. They will not reason in the same manner.
Quote
I think this is because you are tending to rely on hyperbole to express your passion on this subject. You say "in my experience, there is no such thing as "relatively better" when it comes to this. There just isn't." and I immediately think something like "So taking one known pill is not 'relatively better' than ten random pills - wtf?"
Yes either case can kill you right dead before you make it to ER, and it is a serious issue, but with that line of argument you don't have a leg to stand upon. Which is a shame, because you obviously do know what you are talking about.
Um, so if "either case can kill you right dead", it isn't exactly hyperbole, now is it? How many years have you spent in the field? How much research have you done on the subject? And you think you are qualified to judge the legitimacy of how I convey information?
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 09, 2009, 01:31:43 PM
Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.
Right, and did I say "down pills like a bag of skittles?"
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
*Full disclosure: I've done this with Valium, Vicodin, Percoset, Ritalin, and Oxy. On one occasion, we had to hold a mirror up to a guy's face to make sure he was still breathing (was, barely). On another, some guy jumped out the window on a dare, dislocated his shoulder, didn't notice, and left it like that for an hour or so. His shoulder's now permanently fucked up because of it. When I was young and stupid, I was really fucking stupid.
Good advice. Taken.
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
RWHN seems to agree to some extent, but is reluctant to actually state it, presumably in case some kid reads through this whole discussion and decides that they should suddenly start raiding some medicine cabinets. I conclude this only because when pressed on the risk issue above, RWHN started putting it in the context of what message should he be telling kids in schools.
There is no "pro-drugs crowd" who have argued at any point that kids abusing Rx is anything other than incredibly stupid. But nice straw-man. As such there is no "saving face" - pretty much everyone has been trying to find areas of agreement with RWHN and figure out where the disagreements stem from, which has been a one-sided effort it seems. It's either "submit to my authority, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
Shut up.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 01:34:18 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 09, 2009, 01:31:43 PM
Ok no, I'm like FP, I always down the entire baggie of skittles in one go.
Right, and did I say "down pills like a bag of skittles?"
No, but I (and I think a bunch of others) misinterpreted it as such.
I have always thought Rx abuse is stupid, which is why I didnt participate much in the discussion except to try to clear the misinterpretation.
Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 03:24:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC. It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children.
QuoteRWHN seems to agree to some extent, but is reluctant to actually state it, presumably in case some kid reads through this whole discussion and decides that they should suddenly start raiding some medicine cabinets. I conclude this only because when pressed on the risk issue above, RWHN started putting it in the context of what message should he be telling kids in schools.
I'm reluctant to state it, how you state it, because you are completely wrong.
QuoteThere is no "pro-drugs crowd" who have argued at any point that kids abusing Rx is anything other than incredibly stupid. But nice straw-man. As such there is no "saving face" - pretty much everyone has been trying to find areas of agreement with RWHN and figure out where the disagreements stem from, which has been a one-sided effort it seems. It's either "submit to my authority, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
The disagreement stems from games of semantics. And that you don't know what your are talking about has nothing to do with my authority or knowledge on the subject. It has to do with you really not knowing what the fuck you are talking about.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 03:41:45 PM
Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 03:24:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC. It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children.
The only point is that they do not pose an
equal risk of overdose and death.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 03:41:45 PM
The disagreement stems from games of semantics. And that you don't know what your are talking about has nothing to do with my authority or knowledge on the subject. It has to do with you really not knowing what the fuck you are talking about.
Your sloppy use of language "pop them like they are skittles", which most people who responded seemed to take one particular way, is now a group-conspiratorial game of semantics?
What is so hard to understand about the straightforward explanation of how I came to misunderstand your skittles reference, and why must you assume it is anything more than that? I'm happy to let this drop, but I won't while you're ascribing a motive to it which simply isn't there.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 03:41:45 PM
Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 03:24:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC. It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children.
The only point is that they do not pose an equal risk of overdose and death.
Shades of grey. Something, that even if true, is not something kids can sift through and decipher. Again, remember there is a HUGE difference, usually, between the reasoning and comprehension abilities of a 15 year old brain compared to a 35 year old brain. So if you really want to argue with me that 5.5 is less than 5.6. Knock yourself out. But when it comes to me dealing with real kids and the real world, that isn't a margin of error that does me, or the kids, any damned good.
QuoteYour sloppy use of language "pop them like they are skittles", which most people who responded seemed to take one particular way, is now a group-conspiratorial game of semantics?
I didn't say anything about it being conspiratorial.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 04:25:02 PM
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 03:41:45 PM
Aw fuckit I'll give in to impulse.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 03:24:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
They both pose the risk of overdose and death. There's a reason Rx drugs are Rx drugs and not OTC. It's to protect people who should not be taking them, especially children.
The only point is that they do not pose an equal risk of overdose and death.
Shades of grey. Something, that even if true, is not something kids can sift through and decipher. Again, remember there is a HUGE difference, usually, between the reasoning and comprehension abilities of a 15 year old brain compared to a 35 year old brain. So if you really want to argue with me that 5.5 is less than 5.6. Knock yourself out. But when it comes to me dealing with real kids and the real world, that isn't a margin of error that does me, or the kids, any damned good.
I'm going to take this as agreement that they do not pose equal risk.
But let's not conflate this with what message we should be giving to the kids. Not least because the bulk of what I know about the changes in brain development over age is contained by the extent of your summary above. Although I still do not understand why it is so abhorrent to tell a kid that while taking any one type of Rx is stupid and dangerous, that the risk increases non-linearly when mixing different Rx.
I do think that myself and my friends were able to make such distinctions at that age.
Because, again, what you end up do is validating one kind of use. When you start talking about degrees of danger, about an activity that on balance is danger through and through, in the mind of a young person, you are offering validation. "Well, at least what I'm doing isn't THAT dangerous." It would be like telling a 17 year old kid, with his license, "Well if you only drink one beer, you will be better able to operate a car versus if you drank 6 beers." While technically it is true, is that a message we really want to convey? No, it is not.
"So, if I bring a six pack to a party, and only have five beers, it's safer for me to drive home than if I had all six... Where are my keys?"
\
:mullet:
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Um. No. I am not pro-drugs, at least not for children. I am not pro-drugs for adults either, I'm simply not against marijuana and I have tried a few things myself. That is different from being pro-drugs, and I'd rather you not paste on me an agenda to mask my actual motive.
At least in my case, I was simply doubting the overblown "epidemic" that children are mixing random drugs in bowls and taking a whole bunch at random without knowing what anything was. It is an implausible image, and rang to me about as true as the old reefer madness propaganda.
IMO, using imagery or claims that patently defy credulity does harm to the credibility of the entire anti-drug effort. It makes people doubt the professionals when they use sensationalistic claims. If a parent believes that this behavior is epidemic and goes to their 14-year-old with something ridiculous like that, the 14-year-old is likely to laugh at their parent and say "no, I'd never do that, I've never heard of anyone doing that, that's totally retarded", whereas if a parent confronts their 14-year-old with something realistic like "I've heard that some kids are trading prescription medications, that's dangerous, let me tell you why and I hope you'll avoid anything like that" they might actually be able to have a dialogue. I also think it's important for parents to be able to recognize the difference between "Hey, can I try one of your Ritalin?" and swallowing a bunch of unknowns. Kids do know the difference, and if parents come off as stupid or ill-informed, their kids won't respect what they have to say.
Especially as a parent, whenever I see overblown sensationalistic hyperbole about drugs, it makes me angry because my children are not stupid, and they recognize it as fucking tabloidesque bullshit, and then I have to explain to them that while yes, that particular piece of propaganda is full of exaggeration or outright lies, there is a kernel of truth, or otherwise valid reasons to not use drugs. They know that a lot of people use marijuana without any particular ill effects, for instance, so I have had to explain to them that some people can use it and be just fine, but some people use it all the time and it makes them lazy and useless, or thoughtless of others, and that marijuana is unlike many other drugs which can have deadly or devastating effects. Growing up the way I did in the era I did, I knew a lot of kids who smoked marijuana, realized very quickly that the anti-drug propaganda of the time was full of lies and exaggerations, and then went right ahead and tried heroin or cocaine because they assumed they'd been lied to about that, too. Consequently, an awful lot of people I knew when I was young are dead, have AIDS, or are permanently damaged ex-junkies. Oops. WTG, Nancy Reagan, you stupid bitch. Thanks for inventing that gateway.
Hyperbole about drugs helps no one. Especially not kids. Kids need parents to know the difference between marijuana and meth, and between trying someone's mom's Xanax and eating random, unknown pills at a party. Kids need to be able to trust their parents to trust them, and to be able to talk to their parents if they get in a situation they need to be rescued from.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
Because, again, what you end up do is validating one kind of use. When you start talking about degrees of danger, about an activity that on balance is danger through and through, in the mind of a young person, you are offering validation. "Well, at least what I'm doing isn't THAT dangerous." It would be like telling a 17 year old kid, with his license, "Well if you only drink one beer, you will be better able to operate a car versus if you drank 6 beers." While technically it is true, is that a message we really want to convey? No, it is not.
So Lysergic was right then? If, as an authority figure, you are completely unable to give kids the truth - mixing Rx randomly is much more dangerous than just taking one type of Rx, even though either option can kill you - wouldn't you'd be better off pointing them to wikipedia and erowid and let them read the horror trip stories there?
No, I'm better off telling kids that taking (unprescribed obviously) Rx drugs can kill you or make you seriously ill, period. You seem unable to wrap your head around the validation idea. What part of that do you not understand?
I am part of the Safety and Wellness Coalition in my local school district, through my work in the PTA. And yes, this is the latest trend, like X was at raves back in my day--the Pharm Parties, where you take whatever's in your friend's, neighbor's, mom's, dad's, gramma's, step-mom's, baby sister's Rx bottles and dumpt them in a bowl. Pass bowl, everyone gets what they want. And they call them "skittles." Because it's like a candy bowl.
And there have been many cases of kids od'ing and dying on the spot because 1) no one could gather the wits or balls to call 911 and 2) no one knew wtf s/he took to tell the doc how to reverse its effects.
Yes, this is real. Yes, this is statistically provable and the antidrug NGO's are spreading this far and wide so that parents lock up their Rx's like they do the liquor cabinet. They say to not even leave Rx drugs out and accessible during houseparties and OPEN HOUSES because the kids get them from there as well.
Hyperbole is useful, unfortunately, because most kids, I've found, think you're so dumb you're stupid. And the hyperbole does, unfortunately, have some effect in scaring them straight. Just like the hyperbole sometimes, unfortunately, scares the parents into giving a shit what their dipfuck kid is doing out on a Friday, Saturday etc. night or the odd Tuesday, Wednesday afternoon.
I had forgotten how stupid kids and young adults could be until I went back to college. One time, I was sitting on the smokers porch, and some girl was talking about finding some random pills in a plastic bag at some type of music festival, and taking them.
They had no noticeable effect, but who knows what the fuck she took. She certainly didn't.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on October 09, 2009, 05:42:38 PM
No, I'm better off telling kids that taking (unprescribed obviously) Rx drugs can kill you or make you seriously ill, period. You seem unable to wrap your head around the validation idea. What part of that do you not understand?
I don't think anybody is talking about what *you* say. This is about what somebody else said.
Also the reasoning and comprehension of 15 year olds is fine. Its the impulse control/decision making that sucks. Which must make your job a bitch since that basically means kids will understand perfectly that something is incredibly dangerous then do it anyway.
Quote from: fictionpuss on October 09, 2009, 03:24:24 PM
Quote from: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 01:34:29 PM
This argument has now gotten retarded.
The pro-drugs crowd has realized that on the subject of Rx abuse, it is an incredibly stupid thing for kids to do*, and they can't really argue otherwise.
So, to save face, they start picking apart descriptions of how some kids swap and take Rx.
That is retarded. RWHN, I'd suggest you ignore the rest of this thread until they come up with something substantial.
Uh, no.
This entire thread started because of the skittles/pharm party comment. It has rattled on for five pages because RWHN asserts that there is no difference between mixing up drugs in a bowl then taking them randomly, and kids sharing known drugs between themselves. Each case is undesirable, but they do not pose equal risk.
RWHN seems to agree to some extent, but is reluctant to actually state it, presumably in case some kid reads through this whole discussion and decides that they should suddenly start raiding some medicine cabinets. I conclude this only because when pressed on the risk issue above, RWHN started putting it in the context of what message should he be telling kids in schools.
There is no "pro-drugs crowd" who have argued at any point that kids abusing Rx is anything other than incredibly stupid. But nice straw-man. As such there is no "saving face" - pretty much everyone has been trying to find areas of agreement with RWHN and figure out where the disagreements stem from, which has been a one-sided effort it seems. It's either "submit to my authority, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."
Actually there is. That'd be me.
I really don't think that reading through all the available documentation and then making an informed decision to take more than the prescribed dosage is incredibly stupid. You want to make sure you know what dosage is likely to be lethal at your body mass, and you don't want to do something incredibly stupid like mixing it with alcohol, but I did this when I was a teen, I don't regret it, I wouldn't do it again because the lesson I learned from it was I didn't particularly enjoy any of the pills that were available to me, but I don't feel stupid about it at all
I'm pretty against the abuse of scrip drugs. I've been given Oxycontin, oxycodone (Vicodin), and hydrocodone (Percoset) before legitimately for injuries and post-op from my ankles, how kids can use these and not turn into vegetables like I did on Oxycontin at the same age is beyond me. I don't find sitting in a puddle of my own drool a fun way to spend a Friday night.
When I would mention that my brother is on Ritalin and Concerta, I can't mention how many people would push money in my face. He needed that medication to stay still in school (severe ADHD to this day). When I would tell them no, I'd get called a loser and a dork left and right, but I didn't care. I knew and understood the power of these medications and wouldn't be responsible for a bunch of stupid teenagers abusing them.
Another big argument of mine is forced-use of ADHD medications on children who don't need them by parents incapable of doing their job properly, but I'll save that rant for another day.
Quote from: Jenne on October 10, 2009, 04:48:29 AM
I am part of the Safety and Wellness Coalition in my local school district, through my work in the PTA. And yes, this is the latest trend, like X was at raves back in my day--the Pharm Parties, where you take whatever's in your friend's, neighbor's, mom's, dad's, gramma's, step-mom's, baby sister's Rx bottles and dumpt them in a bowl. Pass bowl, everyone gets what they want. And they call them "skittles." Because it's like a candy bowl.
And there have been many cases of kids od'ing and dying on the spot because 1) no one could gather the wits or balls to call 911 and 2) no one knew wtf s/he took to tell the doc how to reverse its effects.
Yes, this is real. Yes, this is statistically provable and the antidrug NGO's are spreading this far and wide so that parents lock up their Rx's like they do the liquor cabinet. They say to not even leave Rx drugs out and accessible during houseparties and OPEN HOUSES because the kids get them from there as well.
Hyperbole is useful, unfortunately, because most kids, I've found, think you're so dumb you're stupid. And the hyperbole does, unfortunately, have some effect in scaring them straight. Just like the hyperbole sometimes, unfortunately, scares the parents into giving a shit what their dipfuck kid is doing out on a Friday, Saturday etc. night or the odd Tuesday, Wednesday afternoon.
I wasn't ready to accept that this was happening based on only one person's observation but with Jenne's above corroboration I think this thread is over.
Quote from: Jenne on October 10, 2009, 04:48:29 AM
I am part of the Safety and Wellness Coalition in my local school district, through my work in the PTA. And yes, this is the latest trend, like X was at raves back in my day--the Pharm Parties, where you take whatever's in your friend's, neighbor's, mom's, dad's, gramma's, step-mom's, baby sister's Rx bottles and dumpt them in a bowl. Pass bowl, everyone gets what they want. And they call them "skittles." Because it's like a candy bowl.
And there have been many cases of kids od'ing and dying on the spot because 1) no one could gather the wits or balls to call 911 and 2) no one knew wtf s/he took to tell the doc how to reverse its effects.
Yes, this is real. Yes, this is statistically provable and the antidrug NGO's are spreading this far and wide so that parents lock up their Rx's like they do the liquor cabinet. They say to not even leave Rx drugs out and accessible during houseparties and OPEN HOUSES because the kids get them from there as well.
Hyperbole is useful, unfortunately, because most kids, I've found, think you're so dumb you're stupid. And the hyperbole does, unfortunately, have some effect in scaring them straight. Just like the hyperbole sometimes, unfortunately, scares the parents into giving a shit what their dipfuck kid is doing out on a Friday, Saturday etc. night or the odd Tuesday, Wednesday afternoon.
I did a focus group with some female inmates in one of the county prisons. There was this one young woman who told me about her scam to gather various Rx drugs. She was in her early 20s, and if you took swapped the orange jumpsuit for regular clothes, she looked like a bookworm. Not your "typical" druggie. Anyway what she would do is go to little old ladies houses, knock on the door, and pretend like she was travelling and had to go to the bathroom really bad. Looking very unsuspecting, the little old ladies would let her in. She would go to the bathroom, and steal a few of the meds that were in the medecine cabinet. She would only need to hit a few houses and she'd be set for awhile, and have enough to sell to make money for her future scores.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on October 10, 2009, 10:02:17 AMyou don't want to do something incredibly stupid like mixing it with alcohol, but I did this when I was a teen, I don't regret it, I wouldn't do it again because the lesson I learned from it was I didn't particularly enjoy any of the pills that were available to me, but I don't feel stupid about it at all
no?
I mean, regardless of enjoying it or not, you ran a very real risk of either dying or getting severe organ damage.
A very, very real risk. And apparently you (and perhaps your friends--you sure none of them got irrepairable liver damage?) were lucky. Very lucky, because the risk is real.
How is that not stupid?
I mean, unless you really don't care about organ damage or your life.
But zero, you run a very real risk of organ damage every time you get behind the wheel of a car. How is that any different?
[/argumentative pedant]
Quote from: Kai on October 10, 2009, 06:44:49 PM
But zero, you run a very real risk of organ damage every time you get behind the wheel of a car. How is that any different?
[/argumentative pedant]
i dont have a drivers license and always sit in the passengers seat 8)
Quote from: Triple Zero on October 10, 2009, 08:48:22 PM
Quote from: Kai on October 10, 2009, 06:44:49 PM
But zero, you run a very real risk of organ damage every time you get behind the wheel of a car. How is that any different?
[/argumentative pedant]
i dont have a drivers license and always sit in the passengers seat 8)
Well played.