I'm going to make generalizations in the following definition that will (probably) raise objections based on individualized ideas about what the BIP is. But for the purpose of the questions I ask, and to minimize thread-drift, please try to think of the BIP in the terms I set out here:
QuoteBlack Iron Prison:
The idea that the day-to-day reality we experience and participate in is largely defined by restrictions rather that possibilities -- that often what we would like to do must take second place to what we are allowed to do; furthermore, that many of these restrictions result from illusion.
Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions. My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are
not self-imposed? I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ? And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?
First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close. Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.
Secondly, in your definition, you could say that the illusion of restriction is simply the act of denying a possibility, so you could still flip it into something positive, if you wanted.
But I like your definition.
Yes. Bernays, Propaganda. Please to be reading.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 04:33:32 PM
First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close. Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.
I would extend that -
all culture is an illusion that arises from the machine.
For example - you can
either get a job
or be unemployed. That duality seems like a fact. But even by choosing one label or the other, you're climbing on
their semantic framework. If you subsist off wild animals and live in a cabin in the woods, you've essentially escaped that dichotomy, but you had to reject the entire cultural framework to do it.
Quote from: vexati0n on May 22, 2007, 04:27:02 PM
Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions. My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed? I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ? And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?
sorry to answer a question with a question, but
If there are externally imposed illusions that we
truly can't just disbelieve, is it worth it trying to escape them? The government is an illusion ... until they show up at your door with a warrant.
I'd say it seems to be important to consistantly say that the BIP isn't necessarily about breaking free from all restraints, it's about identifying and choosing, with responsibility and knowledge of consequences.
well said!
'Cultural taboos' :mittens:
Here's why I find these interesting.
If you look from culture to culture these are usually defined in terms of boundaries, especially when it comes to explicit legislation in the form of government.
Now when you look at a common one, a cultural taboo which is shared across disparate cultures (thou shalt not kill, steal etc) the boundaries change from culture to culture.
eg. age of consent
There's a gag from way back (forget the source - poss Dave Allen) about the fact (in the uk at least) that at the age of sixteen you can fight and die for your country, smoke yourself into an early grave but you have to wait until 18 til you're allowed to drown your sorrows. You can also legally fuck at 16 but you have to wait til 18 before you can check if you're doing it right.
In holland (I think - it's near there anyway) the age of consensual sex is 14. Now if a 20 year old guy was to hump a 14 year old in US or UK (most of this forum?) they'd be a pedo, without taking the individual case into consideration. In holland they'd just be another couple humping but here the dude would be up on all sorts of disgraceful charges and calls to bring back hanging would be heard in the tabloids
Truth be told there's prolly a lot of 14 year old females in the world who are a fucking sight more physically and emotionally mature than, say, a hell of a lot of other 20 year olds. I'm not saying its the norm but I'd be a significant number right? (significant = more than would fit in my house, shoulder to shoulder)
So some guy, who is just an ordinary Joe in the street, mid 20's, picks up a girl in a nightclub somewhere. Chick is done up to the nines, stepped right off the cover of a lads mag, looks 20-ish and, more importantly, comes across that way too. She's 14, ran away from home cos her family were all crackheads or some shit, got a job that didn't ask questions and some digs and basically just kept her shit going. Now, barring statistics, who's to say this couple couldn't live happily ever after if there wasn't a '16' law? (or whatever it is in the us 18? 21?)
Statistically it aint gonna work even if they're both legal.
This same examination can be pored over things like killing - when is it okay/not okay ... and other taboo stuff.
Maybe this is why some folks like to push taboos? Cos it lets them expand their cells.
*placeholder for answer, must take lunch in 3 mins*
That's bloody cheating that is! :lulz:
*edit* and this post is gonna make no sense now :eek:
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
*placeholder for answer, must take lunch in 3 mins*
Quote from: SillyDudeThat's bloody cheating that is!
*edit* and this post is gonna make no sense now
It was more of a personal reminder, Silly m'Dear. ;)
Besides, "cheat while you still can" should be a memebomb, imho.
Anyway, getting back to vex's op: yes, I think the answer is of course "They" forge some bars in your prison. While we live in a certain amount of a vacuum, a large part of the BIP really does seem to be about recognizing where nurture and nature have placed us in that institution we call Life.
I don't remember if it was in this thread or another (I'm suspecting another) where LMNO was saying to stop using the terminology of an "actual" IRL prison when thinking about the BIP. I think that this is ok if you're thinking in terms of the "other" phenomenon--the "They" in the OP, meaning the authorities, society, your parents, your teachers, anyone who has influence over you or taught you or could do anything to you IRL.
They are the ones that influence a large part of the BIP, because they matter. Inherently, indirectly, overtly, covertly...they are the basis on which a lot of our ideas and ideals come from. The "no man is an island" saying comes to mind, and this is very much the truth.
Trying to discard this presents certain psychopathic phenomena that make it, I'm conjecturing anyway, difficult to reside amongst people. You "get along" with others on the basis of how much you share with them: in ideals, dreams, philosophy, stake in community, likeness in habits, etc. And how close those come together with another individual seems to me the basis on which intimacy can be fostered and then preserved.
Those who are born into this situation are born, in essence, in "captivity." Just like the animals at the zoo.
Those not born into captivity (and think of how that phrase is so protective and yet unprepossessing at the same time) end up lacking in so many social skills as to be damaged intellectually. For how can you deal with yourself wholly if you don't deal with others as well?
As for the powers that be...those are just individuals and conglommerates that we bow to from an early age and then continue on bowing in what ways are necessary to preserve those small attachments we form while inside our institutions. Whether those be attachments to things, peoples and/or behaviors I think depends on the individual's cell.
Just realized I didn't explain the following:
Quote from: meI don't remember if it was in this thread or another (I'm suspecting another) where LMNO was saying to stop using the terminology of an "actual" IRL prison when thinking about the BIP. I think that this is ok if you're thinking in terms of the "other" phenomenon--the "They" in the OP, meaning the authorities, society, your parents, your teachers, anyone who has influence over you or taught you or could do anything to you IRL.
When talking about the institution that is the BIP...you have behaviors, situations, routines and relationships that are very much predicated on that particular institution. Growing up, your parents and teachers are your wardens and security guards, and they become your fellow inmates when you are older. Police, politicians, etc. become the "real" guards/wardens.
Sexual intimacy can be a LOT like conjugal visits--you have to plan them, like real-life conjugals (I perhaps know way more about this than many of you as my parents are subject to these constraints), you have to set aside time, etc. as your life gets busier and responsibilities keep you from fucking whenever, whoever, however.
*shrug* I think the BIP can overlap a LOT into real-life prison phenomena when you add in the people who shape that particular experience.
Jenne -
You bring an interesting point about how we get along with others. One of the difficult things about having a successful relationship, for me at least, is coming to terms with the fact that you must share some of the 'bars' in your prison with your partner. Even if they are particularly restrictive in your opinion, or make you uncomfortable. You have to be prepared to adapt to having those around now, as well as to having new ones you hadn't considered before, or even old ones you had already gotten past.
So, if saying your BIP is constructed with restraints you place on yourself is only half the story, then it's also not totally accurate to say you're responsible for breaking yourself out, at least not if you want to maintain relationships with people around you.
This also touches on Prof Cram's point about culture in general being a set of prepackaged BIP restraints. Maybe it does take a total rejection of culture to be free from its false dichotomies, but if you work with others on a few common bars you share, then you begin affecting the culture at large.
I'm rambling, sorry.
Not rambling, vex, just piecing it together.
I think you made rather valid points about intimacy...it's a particularly sticky wicket if you're someone who 1) REALLY likes that illusion of control to stay in place and 2) has problems sharing that illusion with someone else.
I fall into both 1 and 2, sadly.
Quote from: Professor Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 05:09:23 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 04:33:32 PM
First, to answer your question, I'd say that cultural taboo comes very close. Indoctrination from a very young age that you did not choose, and often cannot see.
I would extend that - all culture is an illusion that arises from the machine.
For example - you can either get a job or be unemployed. That duality seems like a fact. But even by choosing one label or the other, you're climbing on their semantic framework. If you subsist off wild animals and live in a cabin in the woods, you've essentially escaped that dichotomy, but you had to reject the entire cultural framework to do it.
Quote from: vexati0n on May 22, 2007, 04:27:02 PM
Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions. My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed? I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ? And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?
sorry to answer a question with a question, but
If there are externally imposed illusions that we truly can't just disbelieve, is it worth it trying to escape them? The government is an illusion ... until they show up at your door with a warrant.
Have to say, motorcycle on this. And this is the "blindest" part about the BIP (black = blindness, imo). You don't see these aspects of existence within these paradigms til they are really removed from you and you are truly placed in another part of the institution.
Damn, I need to print this out & take it home.
Great expansion on the subject.
Jenne: I think you just Starbucked the thing. Great use of metaphor.
Now I have to pick it apart & see what the hell is really going on.
Quote from: vexati0n on May 22, 2007, 04:27:02 PM
Now, in the material covered by the BIP project so far, we have focused on the idea that the bars in our prison are often self-imposed illusions. My question for the rest of the people here is this: Do you think that there are bars in the BIP that are not self-imposed? I don't mean laws of nature/physics, but illusions that are set up and actively maintained by (at the risk of sounding ridiculous) "Them" ? And if so, does it amount to the same thing anyway, since even if 'They' get you to believe a lie, it's still you imposing it on yourself?
I think I can sum it up in two words.
ambition and motivation
Someone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others. It's kind of like that quote I used in my contribution to the BIP. "A conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking." I say this pertains to your question. Someone who has concluded that there is an obstace before them that they have no control over has stopped thinking.
Of course, one could argue that you have to consider nature, human nature, in this equation. I know you want to take it out but there will be cases where someone perhaps doesn't have the mental capacity, for whatever reason, to properly consider the bars and what they mean, let alone who fucking made them in the first place.
You're dipping your toe into Natural Stupidity, there.
If you can tell, the bottom of that pond is Eugenics.
Just a warning.
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 07:45:26 PM
You're dipping your toe into Natural Stupidity, there.
If you can tell, the bottom of that pond is Eugenics.
Just a warning.
Yeah for people who are concerned enough about it that they think they have to come up with an "Ultimate Solution." Another option, is to just ignore them and keep on walking. I'm just making an observation. I'm not saying we have to fix everyone.
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Sure, it's like most cabbages: They see things the way they see them, it's not an option to question them.
The bars have always been the bars, they have no option but to obey.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 07:50:40 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Sure, it's like most cabbages: They see things the way they see them, it's not an option to question them.
The bars have always been the bars, they have no option but to obey.
So it's ambition and motivation that precludes them from seeing them as their own bars and not placed there by others?
Naw. I disagree fundamentally based on the human social experience.
Wait... Rephrase that. Right now, I can't make heads or tails of it.
The OP was about bars placed in our individual BIPs by Others, an unnamed "They"...
So, RWHN responded with saying it's only those lacking in motivation and ambition that would see it this way.
I said, in so many words, bullshit, because that thinking is way too isolationist for the human condition as I see it. We are not islands, so discounting others' direct influences on the BIP seems disingenuous (my fave word, that).
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it. They've stopped thinking at this conclusion. With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit. If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this. This bar is self-imposed after all.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 22, 2007, 08:01:17 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it. They've stopped thinking at this conclusion. With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit. If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this. This bar is self-imposed after all.
While that makes sense, I'm not sure if that aptly explains the process for me. Childhood and upbringing is much more rigorous and has many more repercussions than that. Defeating said bars are difficult in the extreme, as they shape your movements, your tastes and dislikes, your predilictions in most ways, actually.
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 08:00:15 PM
The OP was about bars placed in our individual BIPs by Others, an unnamed "They"...
So, RWHN responded with saying it's only those lacking in motivation and ambition that would see it this way.
I said, in so many words, bullshit, because that thinking is way too isolationist for the human condition as I see it. We are not islands, so discounting others' direct influences on the BIP seems disingenuous (my fave word, that).
I think I need to clarify a bit. When I say ambition and motivation I'm thinking of those as elements. In other words, I'm not talking solely about people with
no motivation and ambition. Someone could have quite a bit of ambition and motivation in many aspects of their life. But, in the event of contemplating a particular bar in their life, they've concluded that it's "they" that have made it so. But, if they employed more motivation to contemplate this particular bar they might find as I illustrated in a previous post, that it was self-imposed. does that make sense? In other words, what I'm saying, is that EVERYONE has the potential to fall down in the categories of ambition and motivation. Just like, anyone who becomes enlightened to the BIP, can fall back into the trappings of oblivion.
I'm getting a feeling you're both saying the same thing.
Jenne, you seem to be saying the social and parental blocks that are set up are hard to get around.
RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.
I think that's pretty much the same thing.
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 08:04:56 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 22, 2007, 08:01:17 PM
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
RWHN...your answer makes sense, but it's rather isolationist and makes no sense to me in terms of real-life experience...can you elaborate on the
QuoteSomeone without sufficient ambition and motivation will conclude, in their minds, that there are bars that have been imposed on them by others.
part?
Sure, the discussions as I've read them have talked about how a bar that someone thinks is imiposed by someone else, in a way, really isn't because they are simply accepting on face value that it was someone else that did it. They've stopped thinking at this conclusion. With more ambition and motivation, perhaps they would examine the bar more in their mind and discover, "Well, shit. If I just do x instead of all of this y and z shit I've been told about, then I could get around this. This bar is self-imposed after all.
While that makes sense, I'm not sure if that aptly explains the process for me. Childhood and upbringing is much more rigorous and has many more repercussions than that. Defeating said bars are difficult in the extreme, as they shape your movements, your tastes and dislikes, your predilictions in most ways, actually.
Right, and that's where my comment about nature came from. The OP says to not consider nature/physics but I think you kind of have to. I think there are cases in which people probably don't have the capacity to see everything and that they don't have the appropriate background information to move any further.
I think it's an iron bar, however, to believe you have been the only force shaping YOU.
I think the bar may originate in the "outside" (of yourself) forces that helped shape your prison, but once you recognize it (and woah! the average person rarely does this amount of introspection, I believe) for what it is, it's YOU that chooses to name its origins...not sure if that adds an additional bar to blame someone else for a bar you are keeping in place.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 08:09:46 PM
I'm getting a feeling you're both saying the same thing.
Jenne, you seem to be saying the social and parental blocks that are set up are hard to get around.
RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.
I think that's pretty much the same thing.
Ok...then I guess I totally misunderstoon RWHN. :lol: My apologies.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 08:09:46 PM
RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.
But again, I think lack of ambition and motivation are potentials in EVERYONE. I'm thinking of it in more episodic terms, rather than epidemic.
We Are All Grey.
Sometimes.
Quote from: Jenne on May 22, 2007, 08:11:26 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 08:09:46 PM
I'm getting a feeling you're both saying the same thing.
Jenne, you seem to be saying the social and parental blocks that are set up are hard to get around.
RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.
I think that's pretty much the same thing.
Ok...then I guess I totally misunderstoon RWHN. :lol: My apologies.
It's most likely my fault. I've been in strategic planning sessions all morning so my mind is still going a mile a minute. I'm sure I'm not adequately conveying what I'm actually thinking.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on May 22, 2007, 08:11:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 08:09:46 PM
RWHN says than people without ambition and motivation (which may be loaded terms) see those blocks as permanent and externally imposed.
But again, I think lack of ambition and motivation are potentials in EVERYONE. I'm thinking of it in more episodic terms, rather than epidemic.
Or endemic. I think a lot of the memes here presuppose that idea.
Quote from: vexati0n on May 22, 2007, 06:45:26 PM
Jenne -
You bring an interesting point about how we get along with others. One of the difficult things about having a successful relationship, for me at least, is coming to terms with the fact that you must share some of the 'bars' in your prison with your partner. Even if they are particularly restrictive in your opinion, or make you uncomfortable. You have to be prepared to adapt to having those around now, as well as to having new ones you hadn't considered before, or even old ones you had already gotten past.
So, if saying your BIP is constructed with restraints you place on yourself is only half the story, then it's also not totally accurate to say you're responsible for breaking yourself out, at least not if you want to maintain relationships with people around you.
This also touches on Prof Cram's point about culture in general being a set of prepackaged BIP restraints. Maybe it does take a total rejection of culture to be free from its false dichotomies, but if you work with others on a few common bars you share, then you begin affecting the culture at large.
I'm rambling, sorry.
Doesn't everything and everyone we are in contact or a relationship add to the bars? Rules of society, following the law when necessary, etc. A lot of things are out of our personal control. Even abandoning society and hiding in the mountains would have it's bars. In reality it is inescapable, but we can control parts, to shape certain things.
Funny thing is the bip is a necessity. It's another reason why I think of the name as being too much of a negative connotation but, at the same time it kind of became that so maybe its a phase that we're just now, perhaps, seeing the end of.
Think back ...
Back to when there was no law or society or any of that shit (the man made part of the prison) Just a bunch of apes running around, free to do whatever the fuck they pleased.
Our monkey friends had three options. Try to be the smallest, slowest, most successful predator in the surrounding area, be predated upon or group together and use the safety in numbers approach to survival.
I don't need BMW to remind me that this imperative was already in place before the homos went sapien but I'm telling a story here so fuck it.
Now these early societies were composed of small groups who relied on each other for pretty much everything. Continued survival depended on a bunch of primitives getting along and coordinating their actions.
At first this was a messy affair and there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Males fought for dominance and the smaller, less aggressive females were generally chucked about whenever the top dog felt it was time to get rid of a load.
Slowly but surely, over time, these smart little monkey tribes grew and grew by a process much faster than darwin's evolution but bearing striking resemblances in execution, nonetheless
This is the point where the Human facet of the BIP was born. Laws appeared, tentatively at first, to prevent behaviour which was deemed destructive to the group in general.
Somewhere along the line these laws became accepted as reality which is quite a shock when you examine some of the early ones. We've all heard stories about virgin sacrifice to the point where the term means nothing more than a clich?©, a joke. But that's not the way the monkeys saw it.
Fast forward a couple of thousand years and holy shit if the whole thing hasn't become retarded beyond belief. The smart monkeys have seized power from the stoopids and they have them building huge edifices to made up cartoon characters and obeying divine mandate because, for some reason, invisible man law carrys much more clout that monkey law (which it actually is when it comes right down to it)
Society grew out of this, not in accordance with invisible guy's divine agenda as has been maintained, but rather by that semi darwinistic process described previously - the most effective line in bullshit and pure brute strength endured.
Fast forward another couple of thousand years. There have been monkeys in space. Monkeys have accomplished feats of engineering and art that are truly breathtaking but monkeys are still ensconced in this prison they have built for themselves and a lot of them are so imprinted that their whole world would fall apart if they were ever forced into a position where they had to actually think for themselves.
Slowly but surely some monkeys are realising this fact. Some of them are angry about it, others just laugh but, if the trend keeps up like this, eventually there may come a time where most monkeys are in this enlightened position.
Until then I say gas the cabbages it'll help speed the process up :lulz:
I think we shape our vision but yet we still continue to live in the BIP. Our view and how we treat it and others is what's truly changeable.
Quote from: Hawk on May 22, 2007, 08:15:24 PM
Doesn't everything and everyone we are in contact or a relationship add to the bars? Rules of society, following the law when necessary, etc. A lot of things are out of our personal control. Even abandoning society and hiding in the mountains would have it's bars. In reality it is inescapable, but we can control parts, to shape certain things.
Remember point 5 from the Notice of Compulsory Immumination: You Agree Not To Obey Laws Simply Because They Are On The Books.
Quote from: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 22, 2007, 08:15:24 PM
Doesn't everything and everyone we are in contact or a relationship add to the bars? Rules of society, following the law when necessary, etc. A lot of things are out of our personal control. Even abandoning society and hiding in the mountains would have it's bars. In reality it is inescapable, but we can control parts, to shape certain things.
Remember point 5 from the Notice of Compulsory Immumination: You Agree Not To Obey Laws Simply Because They Are On The Books.
Agreed, but at the same time if a cop is standing there I'm not going to piss on the annoying guys leg.If the cop and no witnesses are around that could easily happen.
That fits perfectly in line with #5, if you ask me.
You have a reason to follow the law (gonna get caught & punished), then follow the law.
One reply at MA. I think it scared them. :lulz:
Quote from: SillyCybin on May 22, 2007, 05:30:26 PMIn holland (I think - it's near there anyway) the age of consensual sex is 14.
it's 16 afaik.
also, an added restriction is that it is still illegal if there is any sort of power-relationship between the two, such as teacher-student, doctor-patient, stuff like that. a teacher can have sex with a student if the student and the teacher are both at least 18.
we had a political party that wanted to lower the age of consent to 12, but since not enough ppl actually dared to publicly sign for that party (a requirement for a party to be able to be voted for) it never got off the ground. that, and the public stigma of being "the pedo party" (they had some other very interesting radical ideas besides this as well, but those did not get nearly as much attention).
Quote from: Hawk on May 22, 2007, 10:19:32 PM
One reply at MA. I think it scared them. :lulz:
More of a thread up there now...DS answered. It was a great idea to put that up on there, Hawk. Kudos!
Thanks Jenne, maybe it will get others involved as well.
LMNO joined, now it's starting to roll nicely.
I guess I really am the pointy-headed intellectual of Discordia, huh?
LMNO
-straightens his pocket protector.
Heh. A new breed, DISCOGEEK.
I do have to say though, it's kind of fun explaining all of this to someone who hasn't really heard it before.
The fuckers here are too damn jaded.
That and I'm not sure all avenues have been considered yet. New blood may well open up undisclosed doors.
Where is this happening again? You know, in case I want to shrug off work (some more) and watch.
http://littleshopofpagans.com/forum/index.php
Quote from: Hawk on May 24, 2007, 07:03:04 PM
That and I'm not sure all avenues have been considered yet. New blood may well open up undisclosed doors.
Troof.
I'm always open to figuring out new problems with the metaphor.
i came, i lailed, i joined.
a WHOLE FORUM full of fresh blood.
Fertile ground. Some of the (soon to be former) sheep seem to be growing teeth.
I'm gonna give it some time before I really lay it on.
Good idea, these are a lot of the recent ban victims from MW and they are really just learning they have a voice and how to use it. Spoon feeding is the right approach for now.
Quote from: LMNO on May 24, 2007, 07:18:08 PM
Quote from: Hawk on May 24, 2007, 07:03:04 PM
That and I'm not sure all avenues have been considered yet. New blood may well open up undisclosed doors.
Troof.
I'm always open to figuring out new problems with the metaphor.
Problems with any metaphor arise when it becomes entrenched and showing signs of dogma.
Not saying BIP is there yet but it'll happen soon enough. Best prepare the ego for a 'back to the drawing board' sooner rather than later.
I think I'm pretty safe as long as you're too lazy to come up with a new metaphor.
My laziness is legendary - don't put too much stock in that