ATTN: TAOISTS, ZENARCHISTS, EASTERN-THOUGHT SPAGS
This project is an attempt to re-translate the Tao Te Ching with a zenarchist/discordian bent. Anyone that enjoys this stuff is welcome to help. In the end, it'll be published as a Kopyleft PDF.
the project is taking place here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching
if you edit, please make a login so we know who we're talking to.
ETA:
PDF HERE: http://www.scribd.com/doc/34652650/Chao-te-Ching
So, are you suggesting a 1-to-1 rewording of the Tao te Ching?
Could be interesting. I may be able to tackle one or two chapters. Someone tell me what to transliterate, and I'll take a stab at it.
nah nothing so faithful as a 1-1 translation
it's more like, read a chapter of the Tao Te Ching, rewrite it how you want
It should feel basically the same, but -- edgier? sillier? funnier? more "relevant", I guess? it's really up to you and what you get from the chapter.
the link above has the first translation block - the first ten chapters of the Tao Te Ching. If you feel like taking a stab at it, click Edit on the page, and fill in one of those areas where it says TK. (which is editor slang for "text to come") (yes I know that acronym doesn't work)
this idea is still very much in the conceptual stage, so don't worry about "doing it wrong".
I'll take 4 and 7.
If work is slow, it'll be done by lunch.
I started on chapter 2... I have other ideas on that one, so maybe more later?
Though it seems so well written already, that I feel I'm doing a Bad Thing...
oh well...
Ok, 4 is done.
Working on 7 now.
Ok, done 7. Not as happy with the last line.
Fuck it, I'll just start at the beginning, skipping two (for TSo).
Someone stop me if they think I'm being too pushy.
[edit]
Looks like someone's already tackling these.
Question: If we have a very different Idea of how it should go, should we just put an alternate version below it?
[/edit]
oooh. I want ch5!
QuoteQuestion: If we have a very different Idea of how it should go, should we just put an alternate version below it?
yeah, that'd be fine. Eventually we'll synthesize everybody's ideas into one coherent chapter. But at this stage it's not necessary to pick the "correct" translation. Just list everything and we'll cut it up and remix it until it works.
I do advise people to look at a few different translations of each chapter. We don't want to be too loyal to one specific translation... I've a link to an alternate translation at the top of the page, & will be adding more if I find good ones.
Cool. I've already done 4, 5, and 7. I'll keep plugging away.
Question: my text doesn't seem to be registering my carriage returns. Is there some trick I need to know?
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 03:03:07 PM
Cool. I've already done 4, 5, and 7. I'll keep plugging away.
Question: my text doesn't seem to be registering my carriage returns. Is there some trick I need to know?
just a quirk of media wiki formatting. Use a double-carriage return and it should show up.
If you want to format it like the current translated blocks, add a single space* before each line.
How are you enjoying this so far? Any thoughts on the translations? I've been muddling through, and I find it kind of refreshing. It's been a while since I looked at the Tao Te Ching, and I'm surprised at how well some of it lends itself to translation.
Chapter 2 and 5 are favorites of mine. Surely we can update those metaphors in poignant ways.
*read: spacebar, not carriage return
:lulz: I like your chapter 5
QuoteLife is unfair, wear a helmet.
The wise spag wears a helmet, but also drops hammers.
Chaos never ends!
Even its vacuum has a presence.
To struggle against it,
Is like pissing in the wind.
That's a great translation!
I had wrestled with the bellows metaphor - a Bellows probably isn't as common of an image today as it was in ancient china.
Yeah, I'm having a pretty good time.
Just another application of the Lo5, innit?
I like in ch9:
QuoteTemper the truth to its very sharpest,
and you will cut both friend and foe.
if you wanna finish of chapter 2 then feel free, I really can't think of a way of updating the rest of the original with anything that I would find more relevant/meaningful.
x
2's a hard one, probably because it's one of the most direct.
my take on chapter 2
Chapter 2 talks about how once something exists, it implies the existence of its opposite. The Chinese conceptualize a duality in nature, a balance between masculine and feminine forces. This chapter talks about how you can't have a concept for "good" without a concept for "bad" - by seeking to actively create good, we passively create bad. Likewise our knowledge of the universe is based on duality - you don't know what "tall" means until you've got an idea what "short" means. They are reflexively related.
Discordia riffs on duality but pays more lip service to the Humorous/Serious duality. Maybe try reconceptualizing the opposites in that light.
I'll start poking at it...
Here's what I did:
When the people of the world all know Order as Order,
there arises the recognition of Disorder.
When they all know there is such a thing as Illusion,
there arises the idea of Reality.
Therefore Order and Disorder produce each other,
Reality and Illusion trick each other,
Authority and Freedom define each other,
Love and Hate fuck each other.
So the wise spags look for the balance,
And stick their wrench into the Machine™.
They organize, but they do not Order.
They break apart, but they do not Disorder.
They act, but they KTFMS.
And so are able to act again.
Ok, so we have a starting point for all 10 now.
With the possible exception of ch6, which is fairly inscrutable to me.
I LIKE THAT!
chapter six... yeah... not really sure on that one. I think it's just talking about femininity. If we can't grok it, it's okay to just make up something. :-P
Obviously order = masculine, disorder = feminine, right?
for us at least
I'll begin making a Page 2...
Chapter 6
Original:
The spirit of the valley never dies.
It is called the mystical female.
The door of the mystical female
is the root of heaven and earth.
It seems to be continuously within us.
Use it, and it will never fail.
Our Translation:
Says the prophet Old Dirty Bastard:
"I want pussy; pussy for me."
"I want pussy; pussy for free."
:spittake:
So we've got an Old Dirty quote AND a Biggie Smalls quote in the first 10 chapters
later on, we gotta get in a
"I ain't got a problem with you fuckin' me
but I got a little problem with you not fuckin' me."
We could probably start the whole thing off with:
Now stop what you're doin'
'Cause I'm a bout to ruin
The image and the style that you're used to.
Incidentally, ch11 should be about chaos theory.
Ugh. I might have used up my daily batch of cleverness for 1-10.
I tried to get ch12 to relate to circuits 1-4, but I'm not sure it works.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 04:36:17 PM
Ugh. I might have used up my daily batch of cleverness for 1-10.
I tried to get ch12 to relate to circuits 1-4, but I'm not sure it works.
Hmm yeah. I like the 1-4 circuit riff, but I'm not sure that it comes across.
This is a great chapter for the Law of Fives
the moral of the chapter seems to be saying that it's more important to nourish inner self
which has no connection to the world
like - you can't enlighten yourself through indulgence. Just like Siddhartha - he can't just listen to wise men and become wise -- he has to go out and learn the Way on his own.
Yeah. Lemme re-think this.
[edit]
Ah.
[/edit]
Here's my 16... I like how this one came out
Original
Empty yourself of everything.
Maintain a steady serenity.
All things take shape and become active,
but I see them return to their source,
like vegetation that grows and flourishes,
but returns to the root from which it springs.
Returning to the source is serenity;
it is to realize one's destiny.
To realize one's destiny is to know the eternal.
To know the eternal is to be enlightened.
Not to know the eternal
is to act blindly and court disaster.
Whoever knows the eternal is open to everything.
Whoever is open to everything is impartial.
To be impartial is to be universal.
To be universal is to be in accord with heaven.
To be in accord with heaven is to be in accord with the Way.
To be in accord with the Way is to be eternal
and to live free from harm even though the body dies.
Ours:
Forget about everything and be cool
When your work is over, everything returns to the cool, the quiet, the chill
To return to slack is relaxing;
It is to realize where you're going.
To know where you're going is to know eternity.
To know eternity you must find slack.
To act with no knowledge of slack
is to bumble and court disaster.
Whoever can find slack anywhere
is open to everything.
To be open to everything is to be impartial,
a well rounded renaissance.
If laughter is your slack, then laugh
If rage is your slack, then rage
If you can get slack from a stone, then get stoned.
If you can get slack from anywhere, go anywhere.
The mind may lose it
The body may die
return to the slack.
OH i'm on this! in fact i keep a copy of the TTC with me in my laptop case. what's next...chapter 21+
We're still cranking on 11-20.
and feel free to re-write stuff if you think it needs cleanup. If you don't want to modify, add your own translation under an existing translation. We want to get as much of the original nuance as possible, which is difficult when you remap these memes...
Most of our work has been based on the Beck Sanderson (http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Beck_TTK.html#Kap11) translation, but I'm worried about giving that one too much weight. What version do you carry?
Hey, what happens if two people are working on the same chapter at the same time?
What gets saved? The last to click?
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 05:11:02 PM
and feel free to re-write stuff if you think it needs cleanup. If you don't want to modify, add your own translation under an existing translation. We want to get as much of the original nuance as possible, which is difficult when you remap these memes...
Most of our work has been based on the Beck Sanderson (http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Beck_TTK.html#Kap11) translation, but I'm worried about giving that one too much weight. What version do you carry?
i actually own a couple translations..for maximum interpretation.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 05:19:01 PM
Hey, what happens if two people are working on the same chapter at the same time?
What gets saved? The last to click?
They will save in the order that people click Save. The second one will over-write the first, but it's preserved under the History tab. If you notice your work is gone, look at the page history and re-paste your section.
Cool. Just did ch14.
Original:
We look at it, and do not see it; it is invisible.
We listen to it, and do not hear it; it is inaudible.
We touch it, and do not feel it; it is intangible.
These three elude our inquiries, and hence merge into one.
Not by its rising, is it bright,
nor by its sinking, is it dark.
Infinite and eternal, it cannot be defined.
It returns to nothingness.
This is the form of the formless, being in non-being.
It is nebulous and elusive.
Meet it, and you do not see its beginning.
Follow it, and you do not see its end.
Stay with the ancient Way
in order to master what is present.
Knowing the primeval beginning is the essence of the Way.
Our Translation:
We cannot see it, for it blinds us.
We cannot hear it, for it deafens us.
We do not know it exists, for we have built it.
If not seen, we forget it is there.
If not remembered, binds our choices.
Even if unnoticed, it is inescapable.
There is neither shape nor form,
But it is as immovable as Iron.
Fight it, and there shall be no victory.
Run from it, and you shall die tired.
So the wise spag moves it,
Brick by brick,
And sees a new sunrise every day.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 05:11:02 PM
Most of our work has been based on the Beck Sanderson (http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Beck_TTK.html#Kap11) translation, but I'm worried about giving that one too much weight. What version do you carry?
Mitchell translation or GTFO!!! http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
I want to help with this but I don't know if I'll have the time today. You guys move too fast for me.
Mitchell's was the first translation I read. I have a soft spot for it. :)
how could we be working too fast? there's 81 chapters and we're only like 15 in. And we're not going in order. :p
also, we'll probably be revising these a lot. Again, we're still in the "first draft" stage. So don't feel like you're getting left behind because LMNO and I have tons of free time at work or something. (although the rest of the day is looking sorta busy for me)
If you've got a favorite chapter, Iason, I'd love to hear your discordian spin on it.
lol@lmno's capter six.
My take is that the feminine represents ideas like the Great Mother. The foundation of existence that supports object. It refers to the background on which the foreground rests. The Great Feminine is that universal womb which nourishes form...that apparent separation/space/maya that creates the illusion between subject and object. When you drop the figure and remember the background you're with the Great Feminine. It refers to the void before form. The valleys imply peaks. The trough of a wave. IOW, you can't have half a wave, or half a mountain. Valleys and mountains make each other. There is wisdom in understanding the background, the space of things. In terms of the mind, we always seem to be looking out at things, but really we're looking in/out at things.
edit: the whole: you can change the world (difficult) or you can change your mind (easier ... maybe).
That sort of thing.
Chapter 20
Original:
Abandon memorizing, and vexations end.
How much difference is there between yes and no?
How much difference is there between good and evil?
Is what people fear really to be feared?
How very remote the actual occurrence!
The people of the world make merry
as though at a holiday feast or a spring carnival.
I alone am inactive and desireless,
like a new-born baby who cannot yet smile,
unattached, as though homeless.
The people of the world possess more than enough.
I alone seem to have lost all.
I must be a fool, so indiscriminate and nebulous.
Most people seem knowledgeable and bright.
I alone am simple and dull.
Most people see differences and are sharp.
I alone make no distinctions,
seeming aimless, drifting as the sea,
like the wind blowing about, seemingly without destination.
People of the world all have a purpose.
I alone seem impractical and out of place.
I am different from others,
and value drawing sustenance from the Mother.
Our Translation:
Abandon Reality, and Illusions end.
How much difference is there between True and False?
How much difference is there between Order and Disorder?
Is what people Believe really to be believed?
Not fucking likely!
The people know from Right and Wrong,
As if they can see the Universe.
I am unsure, and seek more information.
The people of the world know Sacred from Sinful,
Punishing and praising all around them.
I raise a challenge with "I Don't Know,"
And lay myself down with sleep undisturbed.
Most people have reached a conclusion,
And move on to the next shiny object.
I keep my thoughts alive,
And tucked in my head,
Waiting for the next Observation.
You beat me to Chapter 20!! :argh!: Fuck it. I'm putting mine in there anyways.
I am not Attached™ to any of these. Feel free to edit.
Original:
Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.
The Master observes the world
but trusts his inner vision.
He allows things to come and go.
His heart is open as the sky.
---------------------------------
Chao te spag:
Too much TV clouds the eyes.
Shitty music kills the radio.
Foodies can't appreciate a cracker.
Fantasies provide false hope.
Craving hardens emotion.
The Wise Spag enjoys these things
but remembers to think for himself,
He knows better than to come or go
Because he doesn't whistle while pissing.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 05:59:03 PM
I am not Attached™ to any of these. Feel free to edit.
I just added it as an "alternate version". We can go through later and fight over which versions are better.
Just finished ch15.
47
Without opening your door,
you can open your heart to the world.
Without looking out your window,
you can see the essence of the Tao.
The more you know,
the less you understand.
The Master arrives without leaving,
sees the light without looking,
achieves without doing a thing.
----
You don't need to go to a comedy club to laugh at the world.
Life is still funny even when the joke's on you.
Fuck what you think you know about Chaos.
The wise Spag laughs at her own jokes.
Chuckles at slapstick.
Doesn't give a shit.
:lulz:
When we get to the 40's, we'll have to remember to put that in there.
I think 'Wise Spag" is probably the funniest term I've heard all week. :lol:
BTW
http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/
71 original:
To know that you do not know is the best.
To think you know when you do not is a disease.
Recognizing this disease as a disease is to be free of it.
The wise are free of disease,
because they recognize the disease as a disease.
Therefore they are free of disease.
---------------------------------------------------
SPAG:
Being really REAL for realness is self-imprisonment.
A Pinealist looks at his bars and sees iron.
A Wise Spag looks at her bars and sees reflection.
As the mirror grows deeper the inquiry increases.
The Wise Spag doesn't come to a conclusion
but plays mind games for fun and profit.
I like that one.
Cram, you need to upload the rest of the chapters!
Incidentally Burns, we could use some help with 13, 17, and 19.
QuoteA Pinealist looks at his bars and sees iron.
:?
I don't follow that line
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 06:48:39 PM
Cram, you need to upload the rest of the chapters!
will do soon, just don't have time at the moment. For now, if you're translating a later chapter, paste the text on that [currently blank] page. I'll insert it into the manuscript when it's prepared.
in general:try to avoid using unexplained acronyms and terms
I saw a few TFYS and KYSFTBs in there, which will mystify many of our readers
"pinealist" is very local slang
I disagree. The Tao is full of vague and undefined terms. "The 10,000 things" for example.
As far as "A Pinealist looks at his bars and sees iron," I read that as all the people who read the BIP and see it as Depressing; they read that there is No Escape, and find it pessimistic.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 06:54:02 PM
QuoteA Pinealist looks at his bars and sees iron.
:?
I don't follow that line
It's pretty basic. Pinealism, or the act getting caught up in the discordian symbols rather than the idea itself. Falling into the trap of 'knowing' rather than inquiry. the BIP isn't really a prison with Iron bars but a method of self-reflection/discovery...etc.
is there a better term for pinealist?
and i'll go ahead and expand my earlier TFYS acronym.
ah I get it now, but the meaning "someone who takes symbols literally" doesn't come through from the word Pinealist (unless you post at PD)
The "eating the menu" metaphor (used elsewhere) may need a bit more explanation too. I'm sure we'll find a suitable chapter for it somewhere.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 06:59:02 PM
I disagree. The Tao is full of vague and undefined terms. "The 10,000 things" for example.
Mm, yes, but there's a difference.. the TTC lets people come to their own conclusions about the meaning of certain concepts.
in contrast, we're using short hand ("pinealist", "eating the menu", "barstool") to reference discussions that we've had. I think we should avoid that kind of stuff where possible -- it's equivalent to referencing an in-joke that we haven't filled them in on.
Quote
Some tinkering on 71:
Trying not to be a poser is self-imprisonment.
The Wise Spag doesn't come to a conclusion
but plays mind games for fun
A conclusion is just where she stopped thinking
oh and as far as Pinealist goes:
I tend to look at the TTC as a sort of guide for not getting in one's own way. (among other things).
It might be useful to have a symbol, like Pinealist or something else, to help differentiate one who gets in ones own way with something like the Wise Spag who flows with the way of things better. Chapter 71 compares those who are sick with knowledge as opposed to those who are not. I'm just saying that having a few reoccurring symbols might actually help to clarify our discordian themes while still maintaining the integrity of the original message.
I agree. How can we sum up "doing it wrong" from a zenarchist perspective?
Grayface?
Cabbage?
Bureaucrat?
they all have their own flavor
Again, I disagree.
The TTC doesn't spell it out for people. It makes vague poetic references, and then forces the reader to think it through.
If we are not allowed to use shorthand terms for extremely complex discussions, this will get extremely long-winded.
There's some chapter in the TTC that talks about the wise man, the regular man, and the fool.
In fact, there are several passages that define the Fool.
Can't we use those chapters to define Pinealist?
The TTC isn't linear; later chapters refine previous ones.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 07:05:20 PM
Quote
Some tinkering on 71:
Trying not to be a poser is self-imprisonment.
The Wise Spag doesn't come to a conclusion
but plays mind games for fun
A conclusion is just where she stopped thinking
I see you're moving away from the BIP metaphor....are the BIP ideas not really fitting with this sort of project because they're specific to this website? I guess I'm just looking for some more specific criteria to follow for any possible future posts. Again i think the personal PD.com touch would be nice provided that the ideas can stand on their own.
Quote from: Crampulus on April 14, 2009, 07:10:30 PM
I agree. How can we sum up "doing it wrong" from a zenarchist perspective?
Grayface?
Cabbage?
Bureaucrat?
they all have their own flavor
I think Cabbage is apt as it can apply to everyone. Greyface is more toward a specific individual and Bureaucrat is more in line a specific role.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 07:13:37 PM
There's some chapter in the TTC that talks about the wise man, the regular man, and the fool.
In fact, there are several passages that define the Fool.
Can't we use those chapters to define Pinealist?
The TTC isn't linear; later chapters refine previous ones.
I definitely think outlining specific symbols for everyone to use on this project will establish consistency. That could be a big hurdle since there is more than one author.
I'm using BIP and PD.com metaphors all over the place, because that's how I understand Discordia.
I'm guessing my chapters are headed for the circular files, huh?
But some of these terms
aren't self explanatory. how can someone (who doesn't hang out at PD) think about the word "pinealist" and come to the conclusion we intended?
We're probably in agreement that there's a fine line we have to walk between spoonfeeding the reader information and leaving it frustratingly vague.
That being said, we certainly don't want longwinded discussions in this intentionally minimalistic book. I'd say that if a concept is too complex to explain in one chapter, it probably didn't belong in the TTC anyway, no? I mean, I'm positive that there's a way to explain "eating the menu" (for example) without being tied to that exact metaphor.
I agree fully with what burns said here:
Quotei think the personal PD.com touch would be nice provided that the ideas can stand on their own.
Ok, here's ch7:
Original:
Heaven is eternal, and the earth is very old.
They can be eternal and long lasting,
because they do not exist for themselves,
and for this reason can long endure.
Therefore the wise put themselves last,
but find themselves foremost.
They are indifferent to themselves,
and yet they always remain.
Is it not because they do not live for themselves
that they find themselves fulfilled?
Our Translation:
The Universe outside your Prison Cell has gone on before you, and goes on after you.
It is as unfeeling and uncaring about itself as a barstool in midflight,
Approaching your head; your thoughts inside it affect nothing.
So the wise Spags look outside their own brains,
And grasp the surrounding minds.
They see the Bars of their Black Iron Prison,
And so are able to see around them.
Because isn't the other way
Tatamount to masturbation?
It shows the Barstool as the Reality of the Situation that's gonna happen, whether you believe it isn't there or not. It also shows that to live inside your own head and forget about existential reality is the same as wanking off; in this way, the Barstool is defined.
The way I see it, if we make it to 81 chapters, we're going to be able to cross-reference our terms.
The first time someone sees "Barstool", they might be confused.
The next 5 times they see it, however, it will gradually become defined. Then they'll have to go back and re-read the earlier chapters. That's what I did with the TTC.
I strongly feel that if someone understands what we're getting at too quickly, we're not doing it right.
Im going to list a few things i think are key to remember:
1. Symbols, and metaphors can stand on their own through either being obvious or by the context in which it's used.
---i think the prison metaphor is pretty straightforward.
2. Specific references should support that same specific reference elsewhere.
3. Since it is Discordian, i think this project should assume, at the very least, that the reader has read the PD which allows any and all symbols outlined in the book fair game.
Thats all i can think of, atm, i'm at work too so i'm not able to give this my FULL attention (even though thats what i've been doing for the last hour).
Further defence: CH12
What is Seen distracts from what Is Not;
What is Heard diverts from what Can Not;
What is Believed subverts what Should Not.
The Cell walls we have built
Comfort us into ignorance.
But the wise spag does not eat the menu,
And seeks to re-write the map.
In this case, the "eat the menu" reference should be pretty obvious, or at least lead the thinking person to the same conclusion: What we immediately see and hear builds false impressions that we believe in. The wise spag doesn't go to a restaraunt and eat the menu; which is to say he doesn't believe only what he perceives at a base level.
I'm with you guys. :thumb::
like I said a few pages ago - we're going to have to experiment until we get it right. I certainly don't have the master blueprint! :mrgreen:
It sounds like we're in agreement that the goal is not to produce wankmaterial that will only be appreciated by the Peedy Dotcom cabal.
Due to the nature of this project, I don't think we'll be able to define exactly how we're going to reach our nebulous goal. At some point, it'll just feel right.
Good discussion so far! I'm really enjoying this. I just wish I could focus on it, but work etc etc etc.
Amusingly enough, this reminds me of ch15:
The wise spag understands Chaos,
In that it cannot be understood.
Because of that, they must use metapors,
Which are piss-poor ways of communicating.
Surfing the waves of Chaos;
Attempting a Jailbreak;
Preparing for aftermath;
Changing their filters;
Making their own luck.
Who can make sense of two contradicting Illusions?
Seeing through the spin, a direction becomes clear.
Adapting to the situation, the goals are realized.
Amending the theory, understanding grows.
In this way, the wise spag is not troubled.
also i'd like to point out a few themes from the TTC that maybe we can use corresponding discordian terms for them:
So what is a Discordain way of expressing ideas such as:
-Non-action/Non-interfearance (Wu-wei)
-Spontaneity
-Non-duality
-Fluidity
-Emptiness
-Humility
-Self-knowledge
-acceptance
-confusing the symbol for the value.
-simplicity
there are a shitload of others, but i thought It might be a start for establishing just a teeny bit of consistency.
Original 13:
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.
What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.
What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
SPAG 13:
Having and not having
Both create frustration.
When you have, you're afraid to lose
When you have not, you're afraid you won't have.
Kill the cycle by expanding your definition of Self
To encompass the Universe.
Then, your soul is not inside you, and you are inside your soul.
You can have it all with nothing to lose.
----
The tough thing about chapter 13 is i can't find any discordian correspondences.
Sure there are; in a larger sense, the chapter is about opposites and extremes.
there are plenty of opposites in the PD; order/disorder/creation/destruction/love/war/eris/greyface/illusion/reality...
Just pick a couple, and describe how each compliments the other, or how too much of one leads you astray.
I'll drag my copy of the Tao Teh Ching out tonight then. However, since I intend to finish Twilight as well, don't be surprised if it ends up reading as:
The vampire that can withstand sunlight is not a vampire
The Mary Sue who is made of nothing but flaws is but still a Mary Sue
The dream that from which good literature is made is just a dream
The series is but a mother that rears ten thousand slashfics of its kind.
:horrormirth:
Ok, 17's down.
19's the last one on this page needs doing.
On second thought, does this even need tweaking?
Abandon religion and discard cleverness,
and people will benefit a hundredfold.
Abandon humanity and discard morality,
and people will rediscover love and duty.
Abandon skill and discard profit,
and there will be no thieves or robbers.
These three things relate to externals and are inadequate.
People need what they can depend on:
reveal simplicity; embrace the natural;
control selfishness; reduce desires.
no that's pretty good as it is. A lot of these chapters don't need too much tinkering - the early Discordians were way hip to these ideas, and that's reflected in the Principia.
but things to consider: the translation we're working from is (c), so the bare minimum we need is a retelling
Chapters 21-30 posted:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30
I know. We should paraphrase.
Quote from: LMNO on April 14, 2009, 08:25:51 PM
On second thought, does this even need tweaking?
Abandon religion and discard cleverness,
and people will benefit a hundredfold.
Abandon humanity and discard morality,
and people will rediscover love and duty.
Abandon skill and discard profit,
and there will be no thieves or robbers.
These three things relate to externals and are inadequate.
People need what they can depend on:
reveal simplicity; embrace the natural;
control selfishness; reduce desires.
That's just beautiful.
I tweaked it anyway:
Abandon blind faith and pseudointellectual bullshit,
The spags will benefit.
Abandon absolute morality,
The spags won't try to kill the Other.
Abandon intellectual copyright,
And there will be nothing to steal.
Spags will always be distracted by their imagination:
Religion; Territory; Morals; Politics.
Needs more tweaking. :wink:
Anyway, with one day's work, we hit 20 chapters. Woot!
yeah, this is coming along very nicely! I didn't think we'd get to 20 so quickly...
I can't wait to have a sexy little PDF of this thing to carry in my back pocket.
here's my latest...
Chapter 29
Original:
Those who take over the world and act upon it,
I notice, do not succeed.
The world is a sacred vessel, not to be tampered with.
Those who tamper with it, spoil it.
Those who seize it, lose it.
Some lead, and some follow.
Some blow hot, and some blow cold.
Some are strong, and some are weak.
Some are up, and some are down.
Therefore the wise avoid excess, extravagance, and pride.
Our Translation:
Those that would take over the world
and bend it to their will,
will get bent
The world is full of would-be superheroes and would-be supervillains
maybe the world would be better off without them
Some lead, and some follow
some shout, and some whisper
some cry, and some laugh
some win, some fail
Therefore the wise avoid excess, extravagance, and pride.
suggestions for the final line?
what does a Discordian avoid through inaction?
The wise keeps their head down, and let the cannon fodder do their jobs.
:lulz: perfect
:mittens::mittens::mittens::mittens::mittens:
I especially love how the symbology set has tightened up throughout the thread. I'm interested, and will start toying with some chapters or possibly editing some of the existing ones.
Good work here.
Quote from: Cain on April 14, 2009, 08:15:30 PM
I'll drag my copy of the Tao Teh Ching out tonight then. However, since I intend to finish Twilight as well, don't be surprised if it ends up reading as:
The vampire that can withstand sunlight is not a vampire
The Mary Sue who is made of nothing but flaws is but still a Mary Sue
The dream that from which good literature is made is just a dream
The series is but a mother that rears ten thousand slashfics of its kind.
:spittake:
I like everything about this! Except for the fact that I can't seem to figure out that wiki page thingie? :? :x
I was afraid I was gonna wipe out what came before by editing/adding?
Also, I like Mitchell's translation best so was working off that. I did something for 13, 15, 21, 25, 70, 71, 72, 74, 76 & 78 (was jumping around a bit). Help!
This is an amazing project.
*still has their old beat up marked up Lin Yutang translation*
I also wrote a full word by word commentary of it for an english class in high school.
Quote15
The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.
They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapeable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.
Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?
The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
Not seeking, not expecting,
she is present, and can welcome all things.
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
The old guys were curious & playful.
Their humor often corny.
Guess you had to be there;
now all we see is their raging libidos.
They were clever
as only horny old men can be.
More aware of their short-comings.
Malleable as play-doh.
Flexible as gymnasts.
Charming as dice.
Open as oysters.
& cranky as hell.
Do you know
your ass from your elbow?
Can you still be moved to wonder
or are you too cynical?
Eris seeks diversion, amusement (& now & then a good boff).
No plodding pedantics.
What can you expect from puny homers?
Quote21
The Master keeps her mind
always at one with the Tao;
that is what gives her her radiance.
The Tao is ungraspable.
How can her mind be at one with it?
Because she doesn't cling to ideas.
The Tao is dark and unfathomable.
How can it make her radiant?
Because she lets it.
Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
TGGR keeps his mind
always at one with Chaos;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chaos is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
Chaos is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
Chaos was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
QuoteTGGR keeps his mind
always at one with Chaos;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chaos is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
Chaos is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
Chaos was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
:lulz:
I created blank spots for each chapter all the way up to 81. I haven't had time to paste in "original translations" yet, so if you work on that chapter and have a digital copy open, paste in the source you're working from.
please paste in your work! :mrgreen: there are a number of chapters ITT that aren't added to the wiki yet
Just announcing I'm gonna try to bust through a bunch more today, because I'm on vacation for a week starting tomorrow, and won't have much computer time.
Hopefully, we'll have enough momentum to get all 81, and then, the tough part: editing.
I tried doing this about a year ago, but having looked at what you guys did yours are MUCH much better than mine... good idea - keep it up!
This one's for RWHN:
Chapter 32
Original:
The Way is absolute and undefined.
Like natural uncarved wood in simplicity,
yet none in the world can overcome it.
If leaders would hold to it,
the whole world would serve them spontaneously.
Heaven and earth join, and gentle rain falls,
beyond the command of anyone, evenly upon all.
When civilization arose, names began.
With names, one should know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop, frees one from danger.
The Way in the world is like
rivers and streams flowing into the sea.
Our Translation:
Chaos cannot be labled,
Because it contains all lables.
Therefore, all definitions are incomplete.
It's Gödels, all the way down.
Order and Disorder unite,
And Illusion slips into Chaos.
When spags learn language, labels begin.
With labels, one should know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop, the wise spags see the Illusion;
And are free to create as they see fit.
I'm gonna try giving it a go anyway, but you spags set the bar pretty fucking high... I like a low bar...
I jumped to 35, just in case anyone else was already working in 33 or 34... I'm not sure if the two parts gel very well...
Chapter 35
Original:
All men will come to him who keeps to the one,
For there lie rest and happiness and peace.
Passers by may stop for music and good food,
But a description of the Tao seems without substance or flavor.
It cannot be seen, it cannot be heard,
And yet it cannot be exhausted.
Our Translation:
Everyone digs the one who balances the chao
because within it live shits, giggles, and 3D movies
The Cabbage on the street may be starving
but the chao on the menu still doesn't taste like hamburger
Nice. Added.
Quote from: LMNO on April 15, 2009, 03:32:14 PM
This one's for RWHN:
Chapter 32
Original:
The Way is absolute and undefined.
Like natural uncarved wood in simplicity,
yet none in the world can overcome it.
If leaders would hold to it,
the whole world would serve them spontaneously.
Heaven and earth join, and gentle rain falls,
beyond the command of anyone, evenly upon all.
When civilization arose, names began.
With names, one should know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop, frees one from danger.
The Way in the world is like
rivers and streams flowing into the sea.
Our Translation:
Chaos cannot be labled,
Because it contains all lables.
Therefore, all definitions are incomplete.
It's Gödels, all the way down.
Order and Disorder unite,
And Illusion slips into Chaos.
When spags learn language, labels begin.
With labels, one should know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop, the wise spags see the Illusion;
And are free to create as they see fit.
:thumb:
Ok, I did 31 - 40, with the exception of and 36, 38, and 39.
Going to lunch now.
Quote from: Burns on April 14, 2009, 07:47:24 PM
also i'd like to point out a few themes from the TTC that maybe we can use corresponding discordian terms for them:
So what is a Discordain way of expressing ideas such as...
heres a few ideas I've been riffing on,
and things I think we ought to include... feel free to disagree :)
The Master =
The Wise Spag - we might want to draw a bit of attention to Spag = Fool, since that's not entirely self evident.
The Way is similar to
the Chao.In Discorida the chao represents the primal state, the source of order and disorder. It balances itself naturally. It is formless, indescribable, separate from matter or energy.
Power and
Leadership are common themes in the Tao Te Ching.. to a Discordian, I'd say that power comes from striking the right balance between order and disorder. In this rather bureaucratic world, that often means breaking the rules or generating your own rules, but that's never the bottom line.
If it comes up, we should mention
The Five Seasons, which are an allegory about how stuff starts off in a state of disorder and chaos, and then moves slowly towards order, then the tide takes any ordered state back into a chaotic state. the transition and transcendence from Bureaucracy to the Aftermath is of particular importance to Discordians.
I really liked the earlier riffing on the
8-circuit model, though I think we really only need concern ourselves with the first five circuits or so. (they get kind of fuzzy after that IMHO) Each circuit has a way of "transcending" it, in a manner of speaking, that we should be sensitive to. For example, the first circuit is like a test to see if your environment is dangerous or not. The wise spag transcends the neophobic/neophilic programming.
I like all that except Wise Spag. What about Wise Ass? It sort of says the same thing?
that works too
This whole project makes me wonder what it'd be like to remix the Tao Te Ching with crowley's Book of Lies...
compare/contrast:
Quote from: Lao TzuCHAPTER 17
The best leaders the people barely know.
The next best they love and praise.
The next they fear.
And the next they hate.
Those who lack trust will not be trusted.
Then they resort to promises.
But when they accomplish their task and complete their work,
the people say, "We did it ourselves."
Quote from: crowleyCHAPTER 17
PEACHES
Soft and hollow, how thou dost overcome the hard
and full!
It dies, it gives itself; to Thee is the fruit!
Be thou the Bride; thou shalt be the Mother here-
after.
To all impressions thus. Let them not overcome thee;
yet let them breed within thee. The least of the
impressions, come to its perfection, is Pan.
Receive a thousand lovers; thou shalt bear but One
Child.
This child shall be the heir of Fate the Father.
...if you mixed them together, it might actually be coherent!
in other news, I pasted a ton of source translations into the wiki.
I would reccomend that we finish the thing before we start to settle on terms.
I'm not trying to smear my thumbprint too heavily here, but I feel that, even though The OPDC (Original Principia Discordia Crew) lifted heavily from the TTC, the subsequent result and evolution is definitively not the TTC v2.0.
To try and directly relate TTC terms with PD terms seems to me that we are simply trying to translate the TTC into PD terms, rather than using the TTC as a template to express Discoridan ideas.
But that's just me. I'll keep plugging away at chapters, if you feel we need to edit to make it more in line with the TTC ideals, feel free.
I just don't personally like the term 'spag', but that's just me. It was y'alls idea, so I say go with whatever you think works best.
I think it's cool to want to get rid of "spag" (I did notice with a smile, that when Cram said that some PD terms might be confusing, he completely neglected to mention "spag"), I just think we should focus on getting the first step done before editing.
I agree. Like we all learned from NaNoWriMo... write first, edit later.
James Joyce apparently used abstract notation for certain characters in Finnegan Wake (many relating to the symbols that equate to the Hodge, the Podge, and the Synthesis of both~Chaos). He then would identify the character/archetype later on while editing the scene, if necessary (according to RAW, who saw some of JJ's notebooks).
:mittens:
This is awesome.
THE TAO TEH KING (LIBER CLVII)
A New Translation By
KO YUEN
(ALEISTER CROWLEY)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib157.htm
Tao Te Ching
Written by Lao-tzu
From a translation by S. Mitchell
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html
So... uh...
[pause]
What are we planning to do with this after we finish it?
In light of recent events, I think it's a fair question.
WE'LL BE RICH, MOTHERFUCKER. RICH BEYOND OUR MILDEST DREAMS!!
no srsly though - this thing should be free
Define "free" please.
You don't understand what "free" means?
QuoteLove Minus Zero/No Limit
-Bob Dylan
My love she speaks like silence,
Without ideals or violence,
She doesn't have to say she's faithful,
Yet she's true, like ice, like fire.
People carry roses,
Make promises by the hours,
My love she laughs like the flowers,
Valentines can't buy her.
In the dime stores and bus stations,
People talk of situations,
Read books, repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the wall.
Some speak of the future,
My love she speaks softly,
She knows there's no success like failure
And that failure's no success at all.
The cloak and dagger dangles,
Madams light the candles.
In ceremonies of the horsemen,
Even the pawn must hold a grudge.
Statues made of match sticks,
Crumble into one another,
My love winks, she does not bother,
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
The bridge at midnight trembles,
The country doctor rambles,
Bankers' nieces seek perfection,
Expecting all the gifts that wise men bring.
The wind howls like a hammer,
The night blows cold and rainy,
My love she's like some raven
At my window with a broken wing.
Copyright ©1965; renewed 1993 Special Rider Music
I dunno? I always thought this song might have been inspired by the Tao Te Ching? Y'think? anyway, I like it.
I have a couple of different translations of the Tao, some for the words, some for the illustrations, but I never read Aleister Crowley's version. I like that one too, is interesting.
Are you referring to the Book of Lies? It's not a version of the Tao Te Ching... its a rip off of the Tao Te Ching. There's a difference.
I think AC has a translation of the Tao te Ching (called it the Tao teh King):
http://deoxy.org/taowley.htm
Yup.
Well, color me wrong.
Puce?
That'll work.
Status check:
Chapters 1 - 50 have been given first drafts. More than halfway through; this is easier than I thought.
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 23, 2009, 12:40:58 AM
You don't understand what "free" means?
Is this another one of your episodes where you just didn't realize you were baiting people or are you aware of how douchey you sound by asking that question, considering what just happened with Intermittens?
For the record: Since it appears I have been doing the majority of the first drafts, if somebody makes money off this and doesn't give me a cut, I will do horrible things to their existence.
Quote from: NeT@uNGr0t on April 23, 2009, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 23, 2009, 12:40:58 AM
You don't understand what "free" means?
Is this another one of your episodes where you just didn't realize you were baiting people or are you aware of how douchey you sound by asking that question, considering what just happened with Intermittens?
Perhaps you didn't realize that I'm one of the people who think that entire episode was douchey, as was dragging it into this conversation in the first place.
Tao or GTFO, respectfully.
Agreed. Sorry for the derailment.
Holy chao you guys did a lot fast.
I was on a roll. In the 60s now.
heh, i can't keep up with him.
Holycrap. Well, at least I can help you guys edit.
Even though LMNO has ripped through them, I think I'm still going to do a few them for my own edification.
I lost a little steam in the higher chapters. Feel free to chip in, I want to get the first pass done by the end of the week, at the latest.
Did I say end of the week?
I meant end of the day.
LMNO
-on the last 11 as we speak.
[triple post]
Ok, it's done.
SUGGESTION FOR EDITING:
Now that we have stolen the structure of the Tao te Ching to hang our thoughts on it, I propose to delete the original translations.
That way, we can focus on what our version is trying to say, rather than seeing how closely it matches the "original".
For me, it doesn't matter if we get some drift, it only matters that we get our ideas right.
All those interested in editing, please respond to this.
interested. I just have too much on my plate ATM to give it as much attention as I'd like. I'm glad to see the initial draft completed! I will make some edits, but I can't promise full investiture.
I support your notion of removing the original translations. We can always re-look them up if we have a chapter which seems too ":?"
Since you've written the bulk of these -- how do you feel about it? What themes did you manage to capture, vs which themes/symbols eluded you? What advice would you give to editors (ie "needs moar jokes" or "text should better address wu-wei" or whatever)?
Broader questions for the editorial process:
Can you come up with a few adjectives to describe what "type" of Discordia we're presenting here?
ie People critiqued the BIP for its "darkness" - what kind of critique would this receive from other Discordians? from Taoists?
1) I think other people should edit mine, to maintain balance; so long as they don't mind me editing theirs.
2) Honey, I'm not sure if name dropping TGRR is appropriate... I was thinking this could be slightly more universal than directly relating to a poster at PD.com.
3) I may not have given good enough definitions of our shorthand: Barstool, Prison Cell, Bars, Pinealist, spag, et al. The editors should keep an eye out for poorly-defined terms.
4) As far as my verses go, I think the phrase "not that silly" would be appropriate to describe the kind of Discordia I'm presenting. Other people's verses ar a bit more light-hearted. Maybe that's an editing goal we could look towards.
Quote from: LMNO on April 27, 2009, 06:23:42 PM
1) I think other people should edit mine, to maintain balance; so long as they don't mind me editing theirs.
agreed. Editing each other's work is part of this engine - people need to be comfortable seeing their work edited. Knowing when and what to edit is a bit tricker...
Quote2) Honey, I'm not sure if name dropping TGRR is appropriate... I was thinking this could be slightly more universal than directly relating to a poster at PD.com.
agreed. All of this stuff should make sense to people who don't know us. And TGRR doesn't really evoke the notion of a zenarchist to me.
Quote3) I may not have given good enough definitions of our shorthand: Barstool, Prison Cell, Bars, Pinealist, spag, et al. The editors should keep an eye out for poorly-defined terms.
Cool - the trouble being that we won't know if the term is poorly defined until somebody reads the whole thing cover to cover...
So I think one of the ways we could handle the editing would be to dump the whole book (as it currently stands) into a PDF. then give that PDF to some uninvolved parties who can give us feedback from an outsider point of view. Then we'll have some perspective to keep in mind when editing.
Quote4) As far as my verses go, I think the phrase "not that silly" would be appropriate to describe the kind of Discordia I'm presenting. Other people's verses ar a bit more light-hearted. Maybe that's an editing goal we could look towards.
I always like the "Discordia as a form of sillyness" vibe, and I think that's essential to keeping a dense, heavy text like this not so "weighed down". The book needs to be able to laugh at itself. The more jokes and surprises we put in, the better IMHO. We might even want to insert a totally unrelated (albeit hilarious) chapter just so we don't get stuck in the trap of trying to reinvent the Tao Te Ching.
Should we post individual chapters in this thread and discuss them, or should we keep this to the wiki?
Now that a majority of the base writing is done, definitely drag chapters into this thread.
Okaaay... Chapter 1:
The Universe that can be described is not the real Universe;
the name that can be given is not an accurate name.
Nameless it is the source of order and disorder;
Named... Well, we pretty much covered that, yeah?
Whoever is disordered, sees that patterns do not exist
Whoever is ordered, sees every pattern.
These two are the same,
but what is produced has names.
They both may be called Illusion.
from the comic to the tragic
is the door to the essence of all life.
I'm just reading over chapters 61-70 ATM...
initial comments:
Dang, LMNO, you did some great work here! definitely a very meticulous job of cross-mapping nuances of both philosophies.
I'm still a bit uncertain about the "pinealist" metaphor - I think it could be better defined. In chapter 62 I changed it to the Philosopher, what do you think about this edit? revision history (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_61-70&diff=819&oldid=817)
Chapter 65 has this line:
QuoteUnderstanding the choices means the Lady IS the Tiger.
went over my head. Lady is the tiger? reference to the Lady or the Tiger? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady,_or_the_Tiger%3F) right? Need a more accessible metaphor.
As for posting chapters here - definitely! But we should pick out the difficult, ambiguous, or important chapters - we'll never get through all 81 discussing them in-thread one at a time.
I think chapter 24 and chapter 41 define Pinealist pretty well -- at least, that's where I decided to explain it the most thoroughly.
But "Philosopher" works well in 62.
Yeah, "Lady or the Tiger" is what I was referencing. It's shorthand for "Two unknowable choices." My point it that an either/or decision is the same choice, if you play by someone else's rules.
At least, that's what I think I was talking about.
been wading through the texts
again, I really like how LMNO handled a lot of these chapters
I'm noticing, however, some redundancy (which is probably present in the TTC too)
basically the bit about the Chao being made of both the order and disorder
and both of those are illusions
and you should reject those illusions
^
that bit is probably in four or five different chapters. 34, 40, 55, & numerous others are all shades of the same basic idea.
One of those chapters might be a good place to inject a definition for one of our more nebulous terms.
I'd like to nominate Chapter 41 for more discussion. There are three definitions here and I'm not really clear on them.
QuoteWhen the Discordian hears of Chaos, they Act.
When the Erisian hears of Chaos, they think about it, at great length.
When the Pinealist hears of Chaos, they say, "FNORD! PINEAL23!"
If it were not for the Pinealist, Chaos would not be what it is.
Order appears calming and sensible.
Disorder appears unsettling and unstable.
Doubt appears ignorant.
Certainty appears true.
Agression appears confident.
Mirth appears uncaring.
Horror appears powerless.
All these are lies.
Uncertainty reveals itself as a narrow footbridge,
But with its heart in Chaos, the path is clear.
So the first "stanza" defines three things-
*the Discordian (who does stuff)
*the Erisian (who thinks about stuff)
*and the Pinealist (who acts without thinking?)
I think we might need clearer terms here. There's nothing about being "Erisian" in my mental dictionary that corresponds with "thinking but not acting". These attitudes defined in that chapter are present in the general population, not specifically Discordia, so maybe we should pick non-Discordian terms?
I don't want to belabor this point, but if we're going to use the word "pinealist", I think it still needs to be better defined. Outside of this forum, I can't think of anybody who would get the connection between "eating the menu" and saying "FNORD! PINEAL23!". I'm not fond of the word "pinealist" even outside of this context. When I have to explain it to someone, it seems to make best sense in the context of newbies vs jaded discordians. And then even once you understand the word - its usually sounds (to me) like a very picky and condescending way to refer to someone who just hasn't figured it out yet.
but that's just me
I remain open to the Chao. I'm new here & know very little of Discordia. I'm not attached to any of my own interpretations, it was fun writing them & reading the others. I will always love the Tao Te Ching, it plucks my heart strings. To me, the Chao seemed much like the Tao. The concept of wei wu wei seems, to me, to be difficult to translate in both but I think it's somehow key. The idea of a sort of "muscle memory" where the body knows what the mind does not also seems to come into play (big time) in my thoughts on this. The game plays the game. It plays you as you try to play it. It plays you. You laugh at the absurdity. Kinda like "push hands." Or jumping in & out of the various paradoxes. How opposites create each other without devouring one another. In some sense like an Ouroboros.
Anyway I'm failing to express but I remain open to whatever. :)
41 is one of mine, so I'll hold off comment until tomorrow, so anyone else who wants to take a shot can get their ideas in.
Quote from: Honey on April 28, 2009, 12:46:07 AM
I remain open to the Chao. I'm new here & know very little of Discordia. I'm not attached to any of my own interpretations, it was fun writing them & reading the others. I will always love the Tao Te Ching, it plucks my heart strings. To me, the Chao seemed much like the Tao. The concept of wei wu wei seems, to me, to be difficult to translate in both but I think it's somehow key. The idea of a sort of "muscle memory" where the body knows what the mind does not also seems to come into play (big time) in my thoughts on this. The game plays the game. It plays you as you try to play it. It plays you. You laugh at the absurdity. Kinda like "push hands." Or jumping in & out of the various paradoxes. How opposites create each other without devouring one another. In some sense like an Ouroboros.
Anyway I'm failing to express but I remain open to whatever. :)
If you've ever tried to shoot a basketball into a net (or, if you're like me a crumbled up piece of paper into a wastebasket) you'll notice that if you think about making the basket too hard---you'll never make it. you have to shoot for the hoop before you think about shooting for the hoop. or as the one fella said in zen and the art of archery (iirc) you have to let go of the arrow before you think about letting go of the arrow. I think the key term here that really helps to define wu wei is spontaneity. What's nice about spontaneity is that you can NEVER be spontaneous on purpose. it's something that arises from the moment. and so when you TRY (as opposed to non-doing or non-interfearance) you put yourself in a double bind. you become too busy TRYING instead of simply doing. You find yourself TRYING to be spontaneous.
or think of the kid playing and being silly making adults laugh without any self-awareness. Then grandma and grandpa come in and mom says "hey, now do that cute dance you were doing for gram and grandpa!" and the kid gets all shy because he was too busy just expressing himself.
or like in school you HAVE to read all of these books...and you never want to because it's required. then you pick up The Sound and the Fury years later when you really WANT to and realize just how awesome it is.
Anyway, that's my usual way of explaining it, fwiw.
Quote from: Burns on April 28, 2009, 03:29:53 AM
Quote from: Honey on April 28, 2009, 12:46:07 AM
I remain open to the Chao. I'm new here & know very little of Discordia. I'm not attached to any of my own interpretations, it was fun writing them & reading the others. I will always love the Tao Te Ching, it plucks my heart strings. To me, the Chao seemed much like the Tao. The concept of wei wu wei seems, to me, to be difficult to translate in both but I think it's somehow key. The idea of a sort of "muscle memory" where the body knows what the mind does not also seems to come into play (big time) in my thoughts on this. The game plays the game. It plays you as you try to play it. It plays you. You laugh at the absurdity. Kinda like "push hands." Or jumping in & out of the various paradoxes. How opposites create each other without devouring one another. In some sense like an Ouroboros.
Anyway I'm failing to express but I remain open to whatever. :)
If you've ever tried to shoot a basketball into a net (or, if you're like me a crumbled up piece of paper into a wastebasket) you'll notice that if you think about making the basket too hard---you'll never make it. you have to shoot for the hoop before you think about shooting for the hoop. or as the one fella said in zen and the art of archery (iirc) you have to let go of the arrow before you think about letting go of the arrow. I think the key term here that really helps to define wu wei is spontaneity. What's nice about spontaneity is that you can NEVER be spontaneous on purpose. it's something that arises from the moment. and so when you TRY (as opposed to non-doing or non-interfearance) you put yourself in a double bind. you become too busy TRYING instead of simply doing. You find yourself TRYING to be spontaneous.
or think of the kid playing and being silly making adults laugh without any self-awareness. Then grandma and grandpa come in and mom says "hey, now do that cute dance you were doing for gram and grandpa!" and the kid gets all shy because he was too busy just expressing himself.
or like in school you HAVE to read all of these books...and you never want to because it's required. then you pick up The Sound and the Fury years later when you really WANT to and realize just how awesome it is.
Anyway, that's my usual way of explaining it, fwiw.
:mittens:
once i finish reading Tao of Pooh
i might understand enough to not have things tossed at me when i edit.
also have a newspaper article that explains the differences of eastern teachings.
as well as a copy of I chong that might be useful
"Wei developed from the symbols for clawing hand and a monkey, since the term Wu Wei means no going against the nature of things; no clever tampering; no monkeying around." tao of pooh pg 68
Quote from: Cramulus on April 27, 2009, 09:58:30 PM
I'd like to nominate Chapter 41 for more discussion. There are three definitions here and I'm not really clear on them.
QuoteWhen the Discordian hears of Chaos, they Act.
When the Erisian hears of Chaos, they think about it, at great length.
When the Pinealist hears of Chaos, they say, "FNORD! PINEAL23!"
If it were not for the Pinealist, Chaos would not be what it is.
Order appears calming and sensible.
Disorder appears unsettling and unstable.
Doubt appears ignorant.
Certainty appears true.
Agression appears confident.
Mirth appears uncaring.
Horror appears powerless.
All these are lies.
Uncertainty reveals itself as a narrow footbridge,
But with its heart in Chaos, the path is clear.
So the first "stanza" defines three things-
*the Discordian (who does stuff)
*the Erisian (who thinks about stuff)
*and the Pinealist (who acts without thinking?)
I think we might need clearer terms here. There's nothing about being "Erisian" in my mental dictionary that corresponds with "thinking but not acting". These attitudes defined in that chapter are present in the general population, not specifically Discordia, so maybe we should pick non-Discordian terms?
I don't want to belabor this point, but if we're going to use the word "pinealist", I think it still needs to be better defined. Outside of this forum, I can't think of anybody who would get the connection between "eating the menu" and saying "FNORD! PINEAL23!". I'm not fond of the word "pinealist" even outside of this context. When I have to explain it to someone, it seems to make best sense in the context of newbies vs jaded discordians. And then even once you understand the word - its usually sounds (to me) like a very picky and condescending way to refer to someone who just hasn't figured it out yet.
but that's just me
Ok, There seem to be a few things to address:
First, and let's get this out of the way now, I am
not interested in "translating the Tao te Ching using Discordian language." Even though RAW&Co borrowed heavily, there are certain aspects of the Tao that do not seem to fit PD as I see it. I decided to approach this project by using the TTC as a framing device for Discordian ideas. So, (Yatto and others), you don't actually need to know
anything about Taoism to give advice on editing. Y'all are (as far as I can tell) Discordians. This is a
Discordian work. Treat it as such.
Ok, now, onto chapter 41. I see three points Cram has mentioned:
1) "Pinealist".
2) How the language of TTC should relate to the the language of CTC; repitition.
3) Who our audience is.
They all sort of blend together, so let me see if I can work through this. This particular chapter in the TTC is the one that talks about Wise, Mediocre, and Foolish men. Let me repeat that: Lao Tzu did not consider all people to be equally enlightened, he considered some people to be Fools. However, he then went on to say that if it were not for the Fools who laugh at the Tao, the Tao would not be as great as it is.
In a similar way, I was parsing out different kinds of people who consider themselves "Discordian": I drew on the
Illuminatus!3 ELF/LDS split (the Dealey Lama v. Hagbard), and then added a PD.com flair with the Pinealist:
The LDS are doers, active in the physical world, using Discordian Principles.
The ELF are thinkers, spinning out theories, but prone to believeing their own mental constructs.
The Pinealists think smoking pot while reading RAW is fucking
awesome.
But, just like in the Tao, if it wasn't for those gibberish-spewing potheads, Discordia wouldn't be as weird and interesting as it is.
However, if the implied semantic heirarchy is too much, then we can shift it around:
Some hear about Discordia, and plot against the Machine™.
Some hear about Discordia, and think about it at great length.
Some hear about Discordia, and decide it means they can get high and doodle.
If it weren't for those spags, Discordia wouldn't be as strange as it is.
Ok, for the second part... About half of the TTC is made up of a core concept: Going to extremes leaves one unbalanced. Because of that, and because this is the Chao te Ching, the main concept that got repeated was about the (An)Eristic Illusions. I have no problem cutting some of these out and building up other PD concepts. We should track down the ones that don't "pop", and cut them out, replace them with Starbuck's Pebbles, or something.
Which leads us to the third part. When I first picked up the TTC in high school, all I knew of Taoism was the cool logo, and something about moderation. I had no idea what "The 10,000 things" meant, nor how to make sense of "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." I didn't know what
wu-wei meant, or about the symbolism of the Uncarved Block. Simply put, the TTC is
not a "how to" book of Taoism. It's a book of
commentary on Taoism, which makes the most sense if you already know what the hell Lao Tzu is talking about. The TTC, in my opinion, was not meant as a recruiting tool, it was meant for students of the Tao.
It was in that spirit most of my chapters appeared to me; if you don't know
Illuminatus!, the
Principia, RAW, or Leary, there's a good chance that while some of this stuff might be accessible, a lot is going to go over your head. The fact that there was also some BIP added (because, of course, we're trying to write about "our" Discordia
today, and not 50 years ago) adds to the complexity. And because this is more like prose poems than a dissertation, there isn't really room to explain our concepts and metaphors with crystal clarity. Imagine Lao Tzu suddenly going off on a long lecture about the Uncarved Block in the middle of the TTC!
So, in conclusion
(here's the tl;dr summary)1) I won't argue removing "Pinealist", but we do need the concept of people who idolize RAW, think the Law of Fives is somehow actually related to Five, and don't use the PD as toilet paper.
2) The (An)Eristic Illusions are highly stressed, and the weaker instances should probably be replaced by other Discordian concepts.
3) Are we writing the CTC for Discordians, or for people who never heard of Eris?
I am in general accordance with everything you just said. :)
I do prefer your second whack at that stanza. Now I much better understand what you were aiming for.
I certainly didn't "get" all the stuff Lao Tzu was yammering on about until years later. I think that this book should be challenging, you should have to look some stuff up, so long as it's not overwhelming.
I just want to hold up the extreme end of the spectrum as an example - I hate to mention it, but some of Bobby Campbell's comics. I think they're gorgeous and I love his brain, but the density can be repelling. http://ok-dk.net/Agnosis/?p=16&page=6 <--- I queried him about this page in particular, because I know he IS talking about stuff but I couldn't understand it. It's so dense it's inaccessible. his response was:
QuoteThough I actually haven't made up any words in so doing, just kind of as a promise to whomever should actually put time into reading this, the narration may be esoteric as all holy fuck, but it all means something.
I'm debating about including a kind of glossary database to go along with the works here
I can appreciate where he's coming from. He doesn't want to water down his narrative. His target audience already understand those words
or will have the patience to look all that stuff up. And in choosing to present his work that way, he significantly narrows his target audience.
SO
the question is
Quote3) Are we writing the CTC for Discordians, or for people who never heard of Eris?
I personally haven't made up my mind.
The slightly larger part of me likes being able to show my friends the creative projects that I've been working on, and I just plain don't do that when the material is too esoteric. I also think that since there's no hierarchy or canon of Discordian works, any Discordian work should stand on its own to some extent . Re-reading our text AFTER having read the
Principia (
or the Tao Te Ching) will provide a more enriching read, but the text should still be somewhat accessible even if you're not familiar.
One one hand, every writer / editor wants a lot of readers. On the other hand, measuring the success of a book like this by the size of its readership may compromise our writing.
For the record, I think we're doing pretty well on those measures.
what do you think?
I think we provide enough context that even if people don't know the word, they get the meaning.
Also, the above edit to the first stanza is clunky, needs refining.
I'm also going to go through the stanzas, and perhaps add a few lines explaining PD.com/BIP concepts a bit better, as some Discordians won't know them.
With the above in mind, let's talk about Ch 24:
The Cabbage believes Order is most important.
The Pinealist sees Disorder as superior.
The General sees War in everything.
The Bureaucrat craves Authorization.
The Anarchist desires to be a bully on the playground.
All these things are balanced in Chaos,
And so do not succeed.
Therefore the followers of Eris like to poke them with sticks.
The message being, "believing in your illusions and not seeing your prison cell, forces your behavior in a single-minded, predictable fashion. We like to make fun of people like that."
Suggestions for editing?
First Pass PDF Draft:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14714852/Sacred-Chao-Te-Ching
this was a quick & dirty text dump, disregard the style, layout, font, etc..
as for Ch24--
I think "Grayface" might be a good substitution for "cabbage". I think of cabbages as just boring people, not willfully worshiping order like their grayface cousins.
"Leader" a substitution for "Anarchist" --- (most anarchists I know would disagree with that line anyway)
and then move "Anarchist" to where "Pinealist" sits in line 2?
BUT if we're going for a looser interpretation of that chapter, we might pick the types of targets Discordians laugh at
We laugh at them because they buy into these illusions, right?
off the top of my head, some illusions:
Grayface - embraces the illusion that order is safe and good and disorder is dangerous and bad
Scientists - present the illusions of knowledge and "understanding"
Priests - present the illusions of faith
Your Boss - presents the illusion that you have to work for the man
The President - presents the illusion that we live in a singular coherent country
The Oppressed (of all flavors) - believe that their oppression is most important
The Celebrity - believes that the self is most important
When we attack the notion of self importance, maybe the Celebrity is a strong image. I picture kids growing up to believe that they will be rock stars and presidents. They are trying to make themselves into the Celebrity
which is laughable
As a personal preference, I object to "scientist", as the pure definition of a scientist is one who is not sure of an answer, and has to test new hypothesis.
I was getting at the false duality between Science and Religion
Yes, but that is usually made by people who are not scientists.
Also, I propose to come to decisions regarding chapters that have multiple interpretations.
Either we choose one over the other, or we create new chapters for them.
I'm sort of leaning towards the latter.
c24
Bureaucracy- presents the illusion that rules are good for the sake of having rules
Quote from: Yάttᶿ on April 28, 2009, 05:48:24 PM
c24
Bureaucracy- presents the illusion that rules are good for the sake of having rules
This works for me. Added bonus: not only is it a Discordian term, it's well understood by non-Discordians.
while i like some of yours id like to see them in a pention like crams.
so its aneristic in its approach to telling you about the illusions or not
Cabbage- something illusion something rabbits something baseball cards for weridos
Pinealist- is the illusion that we live in a pineapple under the sea
Generals- presents the illusion of battlefield control
Anarchy- presents the illusion of self control
Should I be concerned that I can't understand a fucking word of that?
Quote from: Yάttᶿ on April 30, 2009, 09:50:42 AM
while i like some of yours id like to see them in a pention like crams.
so its aneristic in its approach to telling you about the illusions or not
Cabbage- something illusion something rabbits something baseball cards for weridos
Pinealist- is the illusion that we live in a pineapple under the sea
Generals- presents the illusion of battlefield control
Anarchy- presents the illusion of self control
Quote from: LMNO on April 30, 2009, 01:48:27 PM
Should I be concerned that I can't understand a fucking word of that?
I think he's lost it... its the cabbage bit that throws me...
cram's format
Bureaucracy- presents the illusion that rules are good for the sake of having rules
LMNO's format
The Bureaucrat craves Authorization.
(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6379/carvedblock.jpg) (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carvedblock.jpg)
Quote from: Burns on April 28, 2009, 03:29:53 AM
If you've ever tried to shoot a basketball into a net (or, if you're like me a crumbled up piece of paper into a wastebasket) you'll notice that if you think about making the basket too hard---you'll never make it. you have to shoot for the hoop before you think about shooting for the hoop. or as the one fella said in zen and the art of archery (iirc) you have to let go of the arrow before you think about letting go of the arrow. I think the key term here that really helps to define wu wei is spontaneity. What's nice about spontaneity is that you can NEVER be spontaneous on purpose. it's something that arises from the moment. and so when you TRY (as opposed to non-doing or non-interfearance) you put yourself in a double bind. you become too busy TRYING instead of simply doing. You find yourself TRYING to be spontaneous.
or think of the kid playing and being silly making adults laugh without any self-awareness. Then grandma and grandpa come in and mom says "hey, now do that cute dance you were doing for gram and grandpa!" and the kid gets all shy because he was too busy just expressing himself.
or like in school you HAVE to read all of these books...and you never want to because it's required. then you pick up The Sound and the Fury years later when you really WANT to and realize just how awesome it is.
Anyway, that's my usual way of explaining it, fwiw.
The sports analogies fit the muscle memory concept I was trying to express. The multi-layered memory is electric yet the movement is fluid. During those moments something seems to happen to time too?
Non-attachment is like letting go of the self-conceived ideas that pin you down (like they do with butterflies?)
Style can alter the content (or message), in fact, it must!
Quote from: Cramulus on April 28, 2009, 03:41:49 PM
First Pass PDF Draft:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14714852/Sacred-Chao-Te-Ching
this was a quick & dirty text dump, disregard the style, layout, font, etc..
Thanks for putting that together! I just now downloaded & took a look, it's so much easier to see that way! :)
Hey & feel free to remove the Roger references or whatever if you want to use something (notwithstanding my personal proclivities, idiosyncrasies,
ISSUES). Maybe replace Roger or TGGR with Magnificent Bastard? or some such?
(Oh bruuuther, I just hate that word, y'know
issues? mostly 'cuz I HAVE so damn many!)
Reading this, and reading Ancient China on Postmodern Warfare suggests to me not only is a Discordian Art of War possible, it is downright desirable.
:eek: :fnord: :fap:
Quote from: Cain on May 02, 2009, 08:46:32 PM
Reading this, and reading Ancient China on Postmodern Warfare suggests to me not only is a Discordian Art of War possible, it is downright desirable.
yes :D
Quote from: Cain on May 02, 2009, 08:46:32 PM
Reading this, and reading Ancient China on Postmodern Warfare suggests to me not only is a Discordian Art of War possible, it is downright desirable.
Oh holy shit YES.
Back on topic. To discuss:
TGGR keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
Quote from: LMNO on May 04, 2009, 02:34:06 PM
Back on topic. To discuss:
The Angered One keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
better?
Freedom exists through Eris Discordia.
What we call Eris Discordia is Chaos,
elusive and intangible.
Elusive and intangible, yet within it is Order.
Intangible and elusive, yet within it is
Disorder.
Random and uncalculating, yet with in it is
Life.
Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.
Or another interp
TGGR keeps his mind or in a somewhat issue free vein: The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
& note to TSosBR!: Y'think that's angry? Hah! y'don't want to get me started on those damn lovely damn lovely damn lovely damn lovely lazers rays thingies o' his!!! I get all more confused just thinking about 'em & then ... HOLY SHIT!! how the hell does he DO that? :sad: :)
I like it better as the Wise Spag than as TGRR.
I'm not 100% on the term "Wise Spag" either, but that's a separate issue. "Spag" is neat because it's not a word really, so it can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. (not just saying that 'cause I made it up, I promise!) It works for now, but I think there might be a word out there that makes us go "yeah! that's what I was talking about!". Until then, Wise Spag is the best choice.
line six "Because he doesn't whine about minutiae."
I LIKE this! I'd like to add something like
Quoteand because he doesn't buy into the "big picture"
the line "'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker." doesn't yet speak to the question before it. Why does the unspeakability of chaos give the wise guy his shtick? I think: it's because any model you can talk about is probably wrong, so any religion you pick is wrong, so you might as well be wrong, right? Oh Discordia!
The final line I think needs a little tinkering too, but not sure.
I wrote this, but I'm not sure where to put it. Wonder how you guys feel about it. Does it groove with what we've got?
Anything could be a punchline.
The Discordian sucker punches suckers
both the wise and foolish
both the wrong and the right
both the deserving and the undeserving
both inaverdently and averdently and
both those that get it and those that don't
and even herself
below the belt.
Whether the Discordian likes it or not,
those are the facts.
The Discordian survives.
She has no hit points
she has no points to hit
inaverdently or averdently
Everything is a punchline
(
should stand without explanation, but I should tip my hat to Telarus' thought in this post (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=17671.msg701555#msg701555):
Quotedealing with all things carelessly, like used talismans.
)
Spag and Sage are pretty close, as words go.
not real keen on shtick might need a better word if we could find one
QuoteAnything could be a punchline.
The Discordian sucker punches suckers
both the wise and foolish
both the wrong and the right
both the deserving and the undeserving
both inaverdently and averdently and
both those that get it and those that don't
and even herself
below the belt.
Whether the Discordian likes it or not,
those are the facts.
The Discordian survives.
She has no hit points
she has no points to hit
inaverdently or averdently
Everything is a punchline
i like this a lot
inadvertently or averdently/inaverdently spelling error or meaning i am missing? averdently isnt a word or is it?
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2009, 01:29:25 AM
I like it better as the Wise Spag than as TGRR.
That one was the 1st one I wrote I think & I'm really not attached to any of it - one of the reasons I included the 1st interps. I like the elusive ideas & the intangible entangles me quite often & random of course too & the flow of it.
Quote from: CramulusI'm not 100% on the term "Wise Spag" either, but that's a separate issue. "Spag" is neat because it's not a word really, so it can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. (not just saying that 'cause I made it up, I promise!) It works for now, but I think there might be a word out there that makes us go "yeah! that's what I was talking about!". Until then, Wise Spag is the best choice.
I like Wise Spag as a standalone term because it sounds kinda oxymoronic but might not be. (kudos for making it up! didn't know that - see how my discordia knowledge fails?)
Quote from: Cramulusline six "Because he doesn't whine about minutiae."
I LIKE this! I'd like to add something like
and because he doesn't buy into the "big picture"
like that line too!
Quote from: Cramulusthe line "'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker." doesn't yet speak to the question before it. Why does the unspeakability of chaos give the wise guy his shtick? I think: it's because any model you can talk about is probably wrong, so any religion you pick is wrong, so you might as well be wrong, right? Oh Discordia!
What I was going for there (I think) is more like the Zen master's frustration with noobs coming to them with ideas of *instant enlightenment* so they hit them on the head with a big fish or an even bigger koan.
Quote from: Cramulus
Anything could be a punchline.
The Discordian sucker punches suckers
both the wise and foolish
both the wrong and the right
both the deserving and the undeserving
both inaverdently and averdently and
both those that get it and those that don't
and even herself
below the belt.
Whether the Discordian likes it or not,
those are the facts.
The Discordian survives.
She has no hit points
she has no points to hit,
inaverdently or averdently,
Everything is a punchline.
This is great! Tip o' the hat here too! Love the idea of the used talisman or straw dog or the rolled apple! That
is where the phrase "straw dog" came from I think? Useful if used as a sacred object, then back to being a place holder after being used, you can do what you will with it, & the sacredness of everyday objects when imbued with ... (& oh to be used like that would be a wonder & just maybe WE are?)
oh & shtick speaks to schmuck, again not attached to it although I do like Yiddish (not easily translated & vaudevillian in scope) but it is a throwback. New word for shtick? I'll start using it immediately irl if I like it.
Quote from: fomenter on May 05, 2009, 02:00:53 AM
not real keen on shtick might need a better word if we could find one
To me, shtick is a "go-to" game rule, or an easy mask, or the defensive behavior state, or an agressive bluster.
It's a familiar pattern to use in an unfamiliar situation, a comfort zone of behavior.
In the way it is being used right now, it seems that the first stanza is saying, "The wise spag is always mindful of Chaos, which is why he acts as he does."
The bit about killing a motherfucker seems to land in the same territory as Prison Cell and Barstool; that is, a PD.com specific term that might be intelligible to outsiders.
What is meant by killing a motherfucker in this verse? It seems to say, "Chaos is fucking HUGE, and can't be imagined fully. Because of this, the wise spag acts like _________." I would fill in the blank with he "acts like he knows he's probably wrong." However, that's not fully it. He also knows that
everybody else is probably wrong, too. So when some motherfucker comes up and starts acting like they have TRUTH, well...
So, what's a better way of saying this?
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his [shtick]?
Because he knows there is no right answer.
It's a start...
Quote
inadvertently or averdently/inaverdently spelling error or meaning i am missing? averdently isnt a word or is it?
I'm thinking it's a spelling mistake. Although, apparently an antonym of "inadvertent" is "advertent". I did not know that.
LMNO
-learns something new every day.
Incidentally, I propose that chapters with two entries be split into new chapters. I don't want the TTC to confine our ideas that rigidly. So what if we have 87 chapters instead of 81?
Yes, was a spelling mistake :oops:
I think it's fine to add new chapters so long as we're comfortable also removing chapters.
No chapters jump out at me as "candidates for deletion", but I'm open to the idea of removing one or two where it sounds like we're repeating ourselves.
As for the splits chapters, what we basically have is two interpretations of the same chapter. Instead of making them separate entries, we should cut them up and mix them together.
If we end with 81 chapters, I think that'll be cool, but only because I like there being a shadow of correspondence between the two books. That is not necessary to the project.
I went back through the chapters reading it with "The Wise Spag" as "The Discordian", and I kind of like how that feels. What about you guys? Take a look at it, chew it over...
I've been also musing about coming up with a "mission statement" for this book. Basically, after we get a "finished" PDF out, I suspect that we'll never really be "done" and will see zillions of little things we want to change. That's fine, and we can leave ourselves open to new editions if we have the collective drive. The PDF should be free to DL and protected by creative-commons protected. which leads me to this...
We should really talk about a license I guess, so here's my proposal:
(http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-nc-sa/3.0/88x31.png) Non-Commercial Share Alike
This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, as long as license their new creations under the identical terms. Others can download and redistribute your work just like the by-nc-nd license, but they can also translate, make remixes, and produce new stories based on your work. All new work based on yours will carry the same license, so any derivatives will also be non-commercial in nature.
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 01:01:04 PM
Incidentally, I propose that chapters with two entries be split into new chapters. I don't want the TTC to confine our ideas that rigidly. So what if we have 87 chapters instead of 81?
Cha Cha Chuhhh Ching!
(just want to say tho, please feel free to let my words go if they don't fit somehow? Being new to this & all but there's no use forcing. There're times for rigidity but this ain't one of 'em!) :)
I gotta go, almost late, will read later.
Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....
I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".
What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?
Also,
Quote from: Honey on May 05, 2009, 12:50:16 AM
Freedom exists through Eris Discordia.
What we call Eris Discordia is Chaos,
elusive and intangible.
Elusive and intangible, yet within it is Order.
Intangible and elusive, yet within it is
Disorder.
Random and uncalculating, yet with in it is
Life.
Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.
Or another interp
The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his shtick.
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his shtick?
'Cuz he would kill a mother fucker.
Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.
These are two interpretations of the same chaper. How would you suggest we combine them?
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 01:39:51 PM
Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....
I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".
I hear what you're saying
I also don't see how that's a threat to our book
I don't think we've "done it 100% right" right off the bat. We're pretty good. Great in some places. Though some moron might "jazz up" his version of the CTC with garbage, there's also a chance that a "Wise Spag" will add something great to it. We also tend to have better distribution mechanisms than random LOLPINEALn00bs so if someone comes up with a stupid version ours will probably get more playtime in memeosphere.
The Share-Alike clause makes this work similar to the BIP. Upon a first reading, some people will likely come to the forum and say "I don't think you did it right," and we can say, "Cool, give it a try for yourself."
And if we don't like what they suggest, we don't have to use it.
Quote
What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?
We could Copyright it. And then give permission to edit on a case-by-case basis. But that seems a bit possessive to me.
Odds are, the final copy of this thing is going to exist in two primary distribution points:
1) on the PD server, perhaps hosted in a format similar to the PD and BIP
2) on scribd.com, likely uploaded by me
our community controls both of those points (to some extent). I think we'll have okay luck if we focus on distributing via those two points. So I'm not terribly worried about someone filling our book with crap and then popularizing their alternate version because they'll have less manpower distributing it.
To be clear, the wiki is only our workspace. It's not intended to be the final hosting spot for the CTC.
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 01:46:29 PM
These are two interpretations of the same chaper. How would you suggest we combine them?
Normally I'd make a cutup
take the two versions of the same chapter, put them side by side
and go through line by line, choosing lines and phrases which sound like they "work", until you have a composite. Then edit edit edit.
In this case, we've already done a lot of talking about the second version so I think we should go with that.
hey that last stanza:
Even before time & space were,
The Chao was.
Far beyond the logos.
How do I know this is true?
Think for yourself, schmuck.What do you guys think of it as:
QuoteEven before there were brains to know it,
The Chao was.
It existed before symbols, before language,
to this day it is still beyond our language.
How do I know this is true?
I'm not sure: I don't buy into that model either.
added a little bit of paradox, changed the ending completely.
and since I haven't said it in a few pages, I'm with Honey in that I'm not attached to this, so if you don't like it I promise my feelings won't be hurt. :)
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2009, 02:22:17 PM
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 01:39:51 PM
Cram, I'm trying to think down the road a bit here....
I'm ok with us talking about the CTC, and tweaking a few things after discussion, but I'm not ok with some 23ae spag charging through the thing and adding shit like "purple rocket octopus!" every third line because it's not "Discordian Enough".
I hear what you're saying
I also don't see how that's a threat to our book
I don't think we've "done it 100% right" right off the bat. We're pretty good. Great in some places. Though some moron might "jazz up" his version of the CTC with garbage, there's also a chance that a "Wise Spag" will add something great to it. We also tend to have better distribution mechanisms than random LOLPINEALn00bs so if someone comes up with a stupid version ours will probably get more playtime in memeosphere.
The Share-Alike clause makes this work similar to the BIP. Upon a first reading, some people will likely come to the forum and say "I don't think you did it right," and we can say, "Cool, give it a try for yourself."
And if we don't like what they suggest, we don't have to use it.
Quote
What I guess I'm saying is, can we make the CTC wiki only semi-public, so we still have some sort of handle on the content?
We could Copyright it. And then give permission to edit on a case-by-case basis. But that seems a bit possessive to me.
Odds are, the final copy of this thing is going to exist in two primary distribution points:
1) on the PD server, perhaps hosted in a format similar to the PD and BIP
2) on scribd.com, likely uploaded by me
our community controls both of those points (to some extent). I think we'll have okay luck if we focus on distributing via those two points. So I'm not terribly worried about someone filling our book with crap and then popularizing their alternate version because they'll have less manpower distributing it.
To be clear, the wiki is only our workspace. It's not intended to be the final hosting spot for the CTC.
Oh. Ok. I'm cool with that.
:moves along:
As far as the "doubles" go, I've noticed that what each is trying to say, for the most part, aren't really talking about the same thing, so the "line by line" method might not work. How about mixing verses?
What about:
Freedom exists through Eris Discordia.
What we call Eris Discordia is Chaos,
elusive and intangible.
Elusive and intangible, yet within it is Order.
Intangible and elusive, yet within it is
Disorder.
Random and uncalculating, yet with in it is
Life.
The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
that is what gives him his [shtick].
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How does it give him his [shtick]?
['Cuz he would kill a mother fucker].NOTE: Brackets indicate phrases or words under construction
I like it. Let's strike the first stanza though ("Freedom exists through Eris Discordia...") , it seems a little redundant to me.
Sounds good. I'll edit the wiki.
Next up:
Chapter 11
The Mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
but it depends on the empty space at the center.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but the colors between those lines give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.
Therefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
OR
We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
brought us apart.
Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt or construe,
we knew all along
words don't count.
Storm off on a journey,
resisting the tide,
float back.
Slippery bodies swim the ocean,
while thought waves swim through.
I suggest:
Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt and construe,
we knew all along;
Words don't count.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but the colors between those lines give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.
We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
that brought us apart.
Therefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
whoops, you beat me to it! here's my post anywayI like elements of both versions. Here's an attempt at a marriage. Feel free to pair down.
Edit:
QuoteChapter 11
The Mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
but it depends on the empty space at the center.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but crayons give it life.
You fill your house with awesome stuff
but you live in the unoccupied space.
We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
The lens of the first microscope revealed fractillian ignorance.
Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt or construe,
we knew all along
words don't count.
Storm off on a journey,
resisting the tide,
float back.
take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
it sounds a little bit long to me
edit to add: one thing I pondered
"You fill your
house with awesome stuff"
(the empty space inside a house is an image from the TTC... but we could be talking about anything here. the line also works with "head" and "self")
"fractillian"?
Also,
"Storm off on a Journey,
Resisting the tide,
Float back"
Is much more Tao than Chao. Vote to strike.
[ETA: This whole chapter mirrors the Tao pretty closely. Maybe we can nudge it further towards Chao?]
I support your vote
as for "fractillian"
prior to the first microscope we were unaware of cells, bacteria, viruses, the largely invisible microscopic world. The more we learn, the more we understand how little we know. Thus knowledge is a scaffold for ignorance.
"fractillian" indicates an infinite ignorance
the infinite depth is revealed by further magnification
"Fractillian" also indicates recursiveness... the shape of the thing is reflected in all its parts
The invention of the microscope and the new uncertainty it produced is a microcosm of knowledge in general. The more precise our tools get, the better we know how ignorant we are.
I think there's a lesson there about not buying into the contemporary models, even your own models
take it or leave it?
I'm pretty sure what you meant, I just wasn't sure if you knew that's still considered a "made up" word.
Also, Second Stanza, removing the "Tao House" part, expanding on "Coloring Book"
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but crayons give it life,
not staying constrained inside the lines,
nor reducing the pattern into scribbles.
nice blend!
If I recall correctly, the final couplet
QuoteTherefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
is directly from the TTC
though I can't think of a way to reconceptualize it for the Chao. It might not need anything.
maybe I'm still not entirely clear on the difference between the ineffable Tao and the ineffable Chao. Are they effable enough to elucidate?
Here's another one for the mixer:
Chapter 23
The Machine is the wheel of Karma
it is the expectations we create through our expectations
the action we create through our actions
the jobs we create with our jobs.
a traffic jam does not last all morning
nor does a bad day last a lifetime.
What causes them? The Machine.
If the illusions of the Machine do not last long,
how much less should human beings?
Those who follow the Chao are one with the Chao.
Those who follow power are one with power.
Those who follow laughter are one with laughter.
Those who are bored are boring.
Those who are one with the Chao create the Chao.
Those who are one with power create power.
Those who are one with laughter create laughter.
Those who are one with boredom bore the hell out of me, man.
Those who lack humor? The joke's on them.
OR
Sssshh, remain focused,
lurk linger listen.
Be like a kite;
blown by wind
& drenched by rain;
there is no escape.
If you remain open to Chaos,
knowing not where it ends,
the maelstrom may find you,
you're never the same.
If you find yourself wondering
why me? why again? & (for Pan's sake) why now?
If you really wanna know?
leap into the fray
don't look back.
Remain open to Chaos,
trust your heart & your gut;
all is flux.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2009, 03:43:00 PM
nice blend!
If I recall correctly, the final couplet
QuoteTherefore take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
is directly from the TTC
though I can't think of a way to reconceptualize it for the Chao. It might not need anything.
It works pretty well, IMO. I like how in the CTC, "take advantage" has different implications.
Quote
maybe I'm still not entirely clear on the difference between the ineffable Tao and the ineffable Chao. Are they effable enough to elucidate?
More like EFF-U-able, AMIRITE?
Ok then,
Chapter 11
The Mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
but it depends on the empty space at the center.
Knowledge is built of facts:
a scaffolding to support ignorance.
The lines in a coloring book give the page form
but crayons give it life,
not staying constrained inside the lines,
nor reducing the pattern into scribbles.
We stick apart & stay baffled,
yet keep coming back
to the very same thing
The lens of the first microscope revealed fractillian ignorance.
Shaped words, unraveled meanings,
interpret, corrupt, adapt or construe,
we knew all along
words don't count.
take advantage of what exists,
and use what does not exist.
Do we like?
I'll edit the wiki.
I like!
we took two meh chapters and made them SOLID
I did some tinkering on Chapter 24 (http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30#Chapter_24) to reflect our discussion about it back on page 11.
RE: CH 24.
I'm not sure i'm getting a good grasp on either translation. I see the first as how defining something shapes the observer.
I disagree that The Machine™ is Karma, though I like "expectations of our expectations."
The second one... I dunno. Perhaps it's too mystical for my understanding.
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 04:07:56 PM
re: chapter 23
I disagree that The Machine™ is Karma, though I like "expectations of our expectations."
If it's confusing, it clearly doesn't stand on its own then...
When I wrote that, I had just finished reading Cosmic Trigger, in which Wilson was talking about his daughter getting mugged by a bunch of black teenagers, who he saw as just paying forward the karma dealt to their ancestors. Luna forgave them and held no ill will towards them, thereby "stopping the wheel of Karma" (wilson's words)
maybe there's a better way to express that in relation to the Machine.
The Machine is what makes us get up to go to work in the morning, it's what makes us follow traffic laws, it's what makes worry when the economy gets tight... but it's also the theater for our love and laughter. So I don't want to depict it as a flatly evil thing, I do see it as perpetuating some of the good will of humanity too, even if the gears tend to diminish these things. "Both sides of the Chao" and all that.
so maybe that's different from Karma
but the idea is that we create our reality
and the reality we create creates the next reality in turn
QuoteThe second one... I dunno. Perhaps it's too mystical for my understanding.
I also prefer the first version (of the two), but didn't want to push for it because it's mine. :p
Maybe this is a good chapter to stake out what The Machine™ "is", then. I added a few phrases. Thoughts?
The Machine™ is built by our behaviors;
Our unconscious desires,
our conscious schemes.
It is the expectations we create through our expectations,
the action we create through our actions,
the jobs we create with our jobs.
But a traffic jam does not last all morning,
nor does a bad day last a lifetime.
Likewise, a good mood is often fleeting,
and fortune does not always smile.
All of this is found in The Machine™.
Those who follow the Chao think they are one with the Chao.
Those who follow power think they are one with power.
Those who follow laughter think they are one with laughter.
Those who are bored we think are boring.
Those who are one with the Chao create the Chao.
Those who are one with power create power.
Those who are one with laughter create laughter.
Those who are one with boredom bore the hell out of me, man.
Those who lack humor? The joke's on them.
oh I like that quite a bit!
After the line
"the jobs we create with our jobs."
I would clarify:
"the world we create with our world."
One thing it's still missing (or something that belongs elsewhere in the book):
this sentiment from the BIP pamphlet:
QuoteYou CANNOT bring the MACHINE™ down. You can't even slow it down. What you can do is very slowly and unobtrusively begin to rearrange the basic components.
Are you trying to reflect the second half of that chapter to the first? That's where we might be able to adjust in order to get the BIP message in.
Yeah, a little bit... But looking forward, I think that "rearrange the machine" sentiment belongs in Chapter 27, where we talk about the Machine in a bit more depth
I've removed the "Hot Topic" reference and modified thusly:
chapter: http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30#Chapter_27
history: http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30&diff=840&oldid=837
(minor edits)
I like what you did to CH 27, but do you think 'following the rebels' would be better than "identiying with the rebels"?
Ok, here's the second draft of CH 23 (OMGPINEAL!). I'm gonna throw it on the Wiki.
The Machine™ is built by our behaviors;
Our unconscious desires,
our conscious schemes.
It is the expectations we create through our expectations,
the action we create through our actions,
the jobs we create with our jobs,
the world we create with our world.
But a traffic jam does not last all morning,
nor does a bad day last a lifetime.
Likewise, a good mood is often fleeting,
and fortune does not always smile.
All of this is found in The Machine™.
Those who follow the Chao think they are one with the Chao.
Those who follow power think they are one with power.
Those who follow laughter think they are one with laughter.
Those who are bored we think are boring.
Those who are one with the Chao create the Chao.
Those who are one with power create power.
Those who are one with laughter create laughter.
Those who are one with boredom bore the hell out of me, man.
Those who lack humor? The joke's on them.
:mittens:
In case it got overlooked:
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 04:46:41 PM
I like what you did to CH 27, but do you think 'following the rebels' would be better than "identiying with the rebels"?
Oops, did miss that.
I'm 50/50 on the following/identifying verbiage. If you think Following works better, I'm happy to use that.
*updated on the wiki*
Note for whenever: Chapter 26 and 28 need attention
26 is okay but could use some new nouns
28 (I feel) needs a new re-write. Maybe a good slot for that chapter I wrote but couldn't place?
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2009, 04:58:16 PM
Oops, did miss that.
I'm 50/50 on the following/identifying verbiage. If you think Following works better, I'm happy to use that.
*updated on the wiki*
Well, to "identify" with something, for me, is kind of like being in agreement, and isn't really spag-worthy.
"Following", for me, is much more of a "blindly being led" thing.
ah yeah, I hadn't thought about that shade of meaning. Good slice.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 05, 2009, 05:03:33 PM
Note for whenever: Chapter 26 and 28 need attention
26 is okay but could use some new nouns
28 (I feel) needs a new re-write. Maybe a good slot for that chapter I wrote but couldn't place?
yeah, those two were tough translations. Respect to whoever gave it a shot (Honey?). "Serious is the root of hilarious" is a good line.
What's the unplaced chapter?
Quote from: LMNO on May 05, 2009, 05:08:43 PM
yeah, those two were tough translations. Respect to whoever gave it a shot (Honey?). "Serious is the root of hilarious" is a good line.
Yeah, that line's def. a keeper!
QuoteWhat's the unplaced chapter?
second half of post here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=20529.msg701582#msg701582
Chapter 26, take two:
http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30#Chapter_26
original chapter (http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#26), if you want a glance
Heh.
Mind if I use "Laughter" in the place of "Hilarity"?
[edit: I went ahead and changed it.]
For substitute CH 28 (Cram's suggestion)
Anything could be a punchline.
The Discordian sucker punches suckers
both the wise and foolish
both the wrong and the right
both the deserving and the undeserving
both inadvertently and advertently and
both those that get it and those that don't
and even herself
below the belt.
Whether the Discordian likes it or not,
those are the facts.
The Discordian survives.
She has no hit points
she has no points to hit
inadvertently and advertently
Everything is a punchline
I'm a bit offput by the "hitpoints" reference, but probably because I'm not a gamer.
yeah? I like it, but I'm biased. :p
it seemed like a cute way to talk about selflessness and detachment
Even non-gamers know what hit-points are (generally),
and I had never seen that play on words before
but if it sticks out too much we can ditch it
I think we should put it to a vote.
proposed revision for 28:
The news anchor is a comedian
who delivers grim stand-up with a straight face.
Some reel back in terror.
Some are numb.
Some laugh through the horror.
This makes them poor victims.
To tell a bad joke
with a straight face
one must master seriousness.
To live in a bad joke
with a straight face
one must master humor.
The Discordian wears many masks.
Ok, jumping back into this: I like Cram's new 28. I'll add it to the Wiki.
We've got another double for Ch 15:
The wise spag understands Chaos,
In that it cannot be understood.
Because of that, they must use metaphors,
Which are piss-poor ways of communicating.
Surfing the waves of Chaos;
Attempting a Jailbreak;
Preparing for aftermath;
Changing their filters;
Making their own luck.
Who can make sense of two contradicting Illusions?
Seeing through the spin, a direction becomes clear.
Adapting to the situation, the goals are realized.
Amending the theory, understanding grows.
In this way, the wise spag is not troubled.
OR
The old guys were curious & playful.
Their humor often corny.
Guess you had to be there;
now all we see is their raging libidos.
They were clever
as only horny old men can be.
More aware of their short-comings.
Malleable as play-doh.
Flexible as gymnasts.
Charming as dice.
Open as oysters.
At times, cranky as hell.
Do you know
your ass from your elbow?
Can you still be moved to wonder
or are you too cynical?
Eris seeks diversion, amusement (& now & then a good boff).
No plodding pedantics.
What can you expect from puny homers?
This is the best I could do (I think I need more coffee).
Chapter 15
The wise spags understand Chaos,
In that it cannot be understood.
Because of that, they must use metaphors,
Which are piss-poor ways of communicating.
Surfing the waves of Chaos;
Attempting a Jailbreak;
Preparing for aftermath;
Changing their filters;
Making their own luck.
Who can make sense of two contradicting Illusions?
Do you know
your ass from your elbow?
Seeing through the spin, a direction becomes clear.
Adapting to the situation, the goals are realized.
Amending the theory, understanding grows.
In this way, the wise spag is not troubled.
Can you still be moved to wonder,
or are you too cynical?
oooh I like the closing couplet
good edit
Ok, I'll post it up.
A new proposal for CH 20 (combining two entries)
Chapter 20
Abandon Reality, and Illusions end.
Stop worrying so much about the world
How much difference is there between True and False?
How much difference is there between Order and Disorder?
Why should you care about what Most People care about?
Is what people Believe really to be believed?
Not fucking likely!
The people know from Right and Wrong,
as if they can see the Universe.
I am unsure, and seek more information.
The people of the world know Sacred from Sinful,
punishing and praising all around them.
I raise a challenge with "I Don't Know,"
and lay myself down with sleep undisturbed.
Most People tend to over-think their problems,
reach a firm conclusion,
and move on to the next shiny object.
Most People try to see the pattern in the Chaos
I see the Chaos in the patterns
Most People try to force Purpose into their life
I ride the waves of Chaos where it takes me
I keep my thoughts alive,
and tucked in my head,
waiting for the next Observation.
Just checking - you are mostly using "Chao" and "Chaos" as synonyms for the Tao, but are there any others?
I'm starting the Discordian Art of War, and since Sun Tzu took from Taoist themes, it seems only right to mirror that relationship here.
Af far as I can tell, when there's a reference to the Taoist duality, we go for the Eristic/Aneristic Illusion pairings.
I sometimes use "Universe" as a synonym for the "10,000 things", or sometimes experiential reality.
I'll take a quick look over what we got, and see if there's any other correlations.
OK, cheers. Its just I'm using Lionel Giles' translation, and he often puts "Moral Law" in as a substitute for the Tao, which is unwieldy and not entirely accurate.
Oh, almost forgot the obvious: "Wise spag" instead of "sage".
WISE SPAG GOES IN EVERY FIELD
we've also been using hip hop artists in place of prophets and wisemen.
QuoteQuoth the prophet Tupac Shakur
"Won't be no bullshit, no ass-kissin
This bitch'll have ya wakin up with all your cash missin"
Awesome.
Yeah, Wise Spag was going to replace Sage, and Cosmic Schmuck for disciple or an unlearned person (if the phrase ever comes up - I'll be using a number of translations to capture the feeling best). Thanks guys!
Many of these chapters don't map exactly to the Tao, but rather used the frame of the chapter to hang a Discordian idea; so there isn't always a one-to-one match with Taoist phrases.
However, when the TTC talks about how a person is Unblalanced, we often talk about the Prison Cell, or the Barstool; when it goes into sphynx-like mystical contradiction, we tend to mention seeing things from more than one viewpoint; when it talks about "good leaders", we tend to flip it and bring up "Authority", and how to avoid it, and KYFMS; Sometimes, we substituted The Machine™ for "nature".
Good good. This of course, has a slightly different focus, but I'm sure that will come in helpful.
Proposed CH 31:
Rigidity makes oppression simple;
The wise spags use the creative trip left,
or the destructive trip right.
Rules disguise suspicion;
So be suspicious about them.
The wise spag will break them
without bringing attention to it;
And will be Rewarded with sovereignty,
if being free is his intent.
When freedom is in danger,
there should be no rest.
Those who oppose are not evil,
but trapped in a cage.
Wise spags speakof a jail break &
rattles their chains,
They enter the idiot asylum
with care & consideration
as if crossing a battlefield.
Not bad. Nothing strongly positive or negative jumps out at me.
QuoteThose who oppose are not evil,
but trapped in a cage.
Wise spags speakof a jail break &
rattles their chains,
^
this might be expanded a bit.
Those who oppose
what are not evil? or is it better to leave that ambiguous - anyone who opposes anything is not evil, but trapped in a cage
Maybe change line two (above) to "
But have caged themselves." (hinting that the BIP is self-constructed)
for the final couplet, perhaps:
Wise spags speak of a jail break
and lead by example
by rattling their own chains
I like that last bit.
What about "Those who oppose the freedom of others are not evil"?
That's very strong. The Wise Spag has sympathy for "The Man".
another image we might make use of is the sound of those rattling chains...
The symphony of rattling chains
is neither noise nor music.
It is the sound of the Chao
and those who hear it.
proposed edit for:
=== Chapter 35 ===
Everyone digs the one who balances the chao
because within it the chao are shits, giggles, and 3D movies
The wise spag treats every day like a day off, but still gets stuff done.
The Cabbage on the street may be starving
but the chao on the menu still doesn't taste like hamburger
Jump to conclusions
fall flat on your face.
I really like that final couplet (by Honey btw) but it might fit better elsewhere.
QuoteThe symphony of rattling chains
is neither noise nor music.
It is the sound of the Chao
and those who hear it.
Substitute in place of the "asylum/battlefield" stanza?
I'd say put it after the idiot asylum
the asylum image is strong because
--hey, some people need to be in a cage for their own safety
the recovered drug addict, for example, has meticulously built a cage of not doing drugs
it's a rather flimsy cage
and the Wise Spag probably shouldn't "break him out" of it
but by rattling his own chains, the Wise Spag reminds the inpatient that he's in charge of his own fate.
So:
31
Rigidity makes oppression simple;
The wise spags use the creative trip left,
or the destructive trip right.
Rules disguise suspicion;
So be suspicious about them.
The wise spag will break them
without bringing attention to it;
And will be Rewarded with sovereignty,
if being free is his intent.
When freedom is in danger,
there should be no rest.
Those who oppose the freedom of others are not evil,
but have caged themselves.
Wise spags speak of a jail break,
and lead by example
by rattling their own chains.
They enter the idiot asylum
with care & consideration
as if crossing a battlefield.
The symphony of rattling chains
is neither noise nor music.
It is the sound of the Chao
and those who hear it.
Yeah?
yeah!
one final proposal;
They enter the idiot asylum
with care & consideration
as if crossing a battlefield
or tiptoeing through a slumber party.
I like it.
Edited on wiki.
Now, to get back to CH 35: Can we do a better job with the eating the menu line?
added:
http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chao_Bin
a repository sandbox for stuff when we don't know what to do with it, or we're afraid it'll get lost in-thread.
hxxp://www.songsouponsea.com/Promenade/CourtI.html
On the most basic level, Yin is chaos and Yang is cosmos, or creation.
If you're a Taospag, that is.
Back to CH35: Some chapters in the TTC seem like they were cobbled together. I don't mind doing the same to this chapter, as such:
Everyone digs the one who balances the Chao,
because within it live shits, giggles, and 3D movies.
But even that is an incomplete map,
so beware of believing it to be the territory.
The Cabbage on the street may be starving
but the Chao on the menu still doesn't taste like hamburger.
Jump to conclusions,
fall flat on your face.
I just took a scan, and the only other place we talk about map/territory/menu/eating it is chapter 12, where we say
QuoteBut the wise spag does confuse the meal with the menu,
Nor the map with the territory;
Both are approximations.
Do we feel ch35 adds to this definition?
I think it probably does, yeah
I noticed you dropped the line "The wise spag treats every day like a day off, but still gets stuff done."?
Was riffing more on the note of "The Master uses all things carelessly, like used talismans"
maybe there's a way to tie that "careless use" to the way one
should use a map or menu.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 14, 2009, 03:16:25 PM
I just took a scan, and the only other place we talk about map/territory/menu/eating it is chapter 12, where we say
QuoteBut the wise spag does confuse the meal with the menu,
Nor the map with the territory;
Both are approximations.
Do we feel ch35 adds to this definition?
I think it probably does, yeah
Cool, I'll slap it up there.
QuoteI noticed you dropped the line "The wise spag treats every day like a day off, but still gets stuff done."?
Was riffing more on the note of "The Master uses all things carelessly, like used talismans"
maybe there's a way to tie that "careless use" to the way one should use a map or menu.
What chapter is that again? I don't see it in the originals for 35.
ohh okay - it was in this post: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=20529.msg704410#msg704410
How the hell did I miss that?
Re-inserted.
:lmnuendo: (obligatory)
I think for 34 we'll go with the first translation, but I want to snip this from the second one:
QuoteUnconcerned with conclusions,
no need to grasp.
Unconscious of power,
wild free it prevails.
and tuck it away in the Chao Bin for later use
Sounds good to me.
Chapter 20's translations seem to be at odds with each other.
woah -- we're done with the doubles!
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/forum/animatedstylinkids.gif)
next up: let's dissect...
it'd be cool if we had a few more outside opinions..
I wonder if some people (other than LMNO and I) would like to earmark some chapters they think should be revised...
edit: whoops didn't see ch20 :p
I also wanted to go back to CH21, to see if we can rephrase it better.
Suggestion for 20:
Abandon Reality, and Illusions end.
Stop worrying so much about the world.
How much difference is there between True and False?
How much difference is there between Order and Disorder?
Why should you care about what Most People care about?
Is what people Believe really to be believed?
Not fucking likely!
The people know from Right and Wrong,
as if they can see the Universe.
I am unsure, and seek more information.
The people of the world know Sacred from Sinful,
punishing and praising all around them.
I raise a challenge with "I Don't Know,"
and lay myself down with sleep undisturbed.
Cool as the other side of the pillow
As expressionless as a new born babe.
Most People tend to over-think their problems,
reach a firm conclusion,
and move on to the next shiny object.
Most People try to see the pattern in the Chaos
I see the Chaos in the patterns
Most People try to force Purpose into their life
I ride the waves of Chaos where it takes me
I keep my thoughts alive,
and tucked in my head,
waiting for the next Observation.
Suggestion for 21:
The wise spag keeps his mind
always at one with the Chao;
That is why he is able to think for himself.
The Chao is ineffable.
How can his mind be at one with it?
Because he doesn't whine about minutiae.
Life is real, and has the power of Creation.
From the moment we are born,
We create the patterns of Illusion,
From which we ever after try and free
ourselves.
How do I know of these Illusions?
By observing Chaos.
The Chao is vast & immeasurable.
How can this help a spag think for themselves?
Because he can choose immeasurable points of view,
not just somebody else's.
Hey, would it be possible to throw together another fast'n'dirty PDF for what we currently have?
It would make it a lot easier to edit as a whole.
Quote from: LMNO on May 14, 2009, 08:42:11 PM
Hey, would it be possible to throw together another fast'n'dirty PDF for what we currently have?
It would make it a lot easier to edit as a whole.
jah, can-do.
at some point, we'll need to have a separate conversation about layout
I think the pen name I want to use for this publication (instead of Cramulus) is "Sitting Duck"...
LMNO could be "Asshopper" :lol:
HAHAHAHAHAA ...asshopper...
i so need to get back on this.
:crankey:
new pdf: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14714852/Sacred-Chao-Te-Ching
^
pdf updated again, looks much cleaner now
Much love. Will do second-pass editing.
Also will gladly accept 3rd-4rth-5th level comments, as it appears this pretty much ended up as a project with Cram, Hoops, Honey, and me.
i'll contribute this weekend.
No longer interested. Please feel free to use whatever you wish but remove my name. Thanks & respect.
oh FFS...
I should clarify, I was in a hurry last night. I am no longer interested in this part of the process.
However, I am very interested in seeing the finished product. Very seriously NOT wanting to create unnecessary drama here but have qualms about attaching my name.
Looking forward to reading! Best wishes! Thanks & Respect!
So, uh... what brought this about?
Quote from: Honey on April 28, 2009, 12:46:07 AM
I remain open to the Chao. I'm new here & know very little of Discordia. I'm not attached to any of my own interpretations, it was fun writing them & reading the others. I will always love the Tao Te Ching, it plucks my heart strings. To me, the Chao seemed much like the Tao. The concept of wei wu wei seems, to me, to be difficult to translate in both but I think it's somehow key. The idea of a sort of "muscle memory" where the body knows what the mind does not also seems to come into play (big time) in my thoughts on this. The game plays the game. It plays you as you try to play it. It plays you. You laugh at the absurdity. Kinda like "push hands." Or jumping in & out of the various paradoxes. How opposites create each other without devouring one another. In some sense like an Ouroboros.
Anyway I'm failing to express but I remain open to whatever. :)
This is probably one of the last times I expended any amount of energy on this project.
Maybe I have ADDHD or some other kinda disorder (don't think so but one never knows)? I've been honest about my
other issues right from the get go.
I'm sorry I said I thought you were a "pretentious little prick" or an "insufferable pedantic prick" (forget which?). & I don't really think
you think I'm an "ignorant uppity slut" (I put those words in your mouth in case you didn't know & I'm sorry for that too).
Although it sure
seems that way sometimes (not HERE in this thread). Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Maybe it's just the Chao?
(goin' to see my Mom tomorrow so let's just say I'm gonna save the drama for my Mama? ok?)
Don't you hate it when you piss someone off when you didn't even mean to?
Well, it's weirder when you thought you were complimenting them.
RE: The Sacred Chao Te Ching:
I wish i had something to say to change it. It still has a rawness about it that I'm not necessarily saying is a bad thing. I almost wonder if really doing anything more with it would take away from it's spontaneity.
some parts might be a little long perhaps, but that's only if you're going for just simple (like some of the translations).
So i wonder if it really needs anything more.
I took a crack at Chapter 67, which I think needs work.
I got this far:
QuoteEverybody thinks Discordia is just a big joke. They do not think it deserves serious consideration. This is what makes gives it its power - it cannot become a dogma and it welcomes no fanatics.
There are three treasures I keep in my heart:
and then in the Tao Te Ching they list the three treasures, which are compassion, frugality, and humility.
I've been trying to figure out what the three treasures of Discordia are, but I might be going about it the wrong way.
Laughter and Uncertainty seem to be two big ones. From laughter comes the ability to let go (?). From uncertainty comes certainty.
I think I'm thinking about the Tao Te Ching chapter too literally.
Marked for Attention:
Chapters 71, 72, 78, 81
Quote from: Cramulus on May 17, 2009, 02:04:34 PM
QuoteEverybody thinks Discordia is just a big joke. They do not think it deserves serious consideration. This is what gives it its power - it cannot become a dogma and it welcomes no fanatics.
There are three treasures I keep in my heart:
and then in the Tao Te Ching they list the three treasures, which are compassion, frugality, and humility.
I've been trying to figure out what the three treasures of Discordia are, but I might be going about it the wrong way.
Laughter and Uncertainty seem to be two big ones. From laughter comes the ability to let go (?). From uncertainty comes certainty.
fixed a little bit in 67 there, also:
how about laughter, uncertaintity and independence/autonomy?
from laughter comes the ability to fall (non-literally obv.) and the ability to rise from the ashes with a grin on your face.
From uncertainty comes the ability to decide and not let the decision be made for you.
from independence comes the ability to seek freedom.
I haven't actually read the original chapter, this is just what I thought when I read your post. Hope it were helpful.
x
In regards to 71 -- Check out this translation of the TTC:
To know that you do not know is the best.
To think you know when you do not is a disease.
Recognizing this disease as a disease is to be free of it.
The wise are free of disease,
because they recognize the disease as a disease.
Therefore they are free of disease.
That's pretty damn close to pure Discordian.
CH 71:
It is wise to admit ignorance.
Those that claim to know everything will fail.
Those who are willing to accept new information
are able to adapt to whatever situation they are in.
Because they are willing to acknowledge failure.
they will not fail.
bingo.
Added to wiki.
72
When people disobey authority
another authority will descend.
When people lack a sense of awe
they cannot see what's awesome.
Do not restrict people's freedoms,
their time or space continuum.
If you act like a spag, you will be treated like a spag.
Therefore the wise spag is not an actor.
67
Everybody thinks Discordia is just a big joke. They do not think it deserves serious consideration. This is what gives it its power.
Discordia cannot become a dogma and it welcomes no fanatics.
There are three treasures I keep in my heart:
Uncertainty, Freedom, and Laughter
From uncertainty comes certainty.
From freedom comes direction.
From laughter comes carelessness.
Certainty untempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like grayface's luggage.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 18, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
72
When people disobey authority
another authority will descend.
When people lack a sense of awe
they cannot see what's awesome.
Do not restrict people's freedoms,
their time or space continuum.
If you act like a spag, you will be treated like a spag.
Therefore the wise spag is not an actor.
I'd amend that to show that
open, obvious defiance
against Authority will increase Authority, but the Wise Spags simply find ways Around it.
Like,
When people openly disobey Authority,
another Authority will descend.
The wise spags go around, not against.
When people lack a sense of awe
they cannot see what's awesome.
Do not restrict people's freedoms,
their time or space continuum.
If you act like a spag, you will be treated like a spag.
Therefore the wise spag acts, but is not an actor.
ah yes, better :)
Throwing up on the Wiki.
{edit: Beat me to it}
Quote from: Cramulus on May 18, 2009, 03:25:48 PM
67
Everybody thinks Discordia is just a big joke. They do not think it deserves serious consideration. This is what gives it its power.
Discordia cannot become a dogma and it welcomes no fanatics.
There are three treasures I keep in my heart:
Uncertainty, Freedom, and Laughter
From uncertainty comes certainty.
From freedom comes direction.
From laughter comes carelessness.
Certainty untempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like grayface's luggage.
Instead of "From___comes___", what do you think about "____is contained by___"
Like,
Uncertainty is countered by certainty.
Freedom is constrained by direction.
Laughter is broken by carelessness.
Quote from: LMNO on May 18, 2009, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on May 18, 2009, 03:25:48 PM
67
Everybody thinks Discordia is just a big joke. They do not think it deserves serious consideration. This is what gives it its power.
Discordia cannot become a dogma and it welcomes no fanatics.
There are three treasures I keep in my heart:
Uncertainty, Freedom, and Laughter
From uncertainty comes certainty.
From freedom comes direction.
From laughter comes carelessness.
Certainty untempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like grayface's luggage.
Instead of "From___comes___", what do you think about "____is contained by___"
Like,
Uncertainty is countered by certainty.
Freedom is constrained by direction.
Laughter is broken by carelessness.
One is born from the other; they're not in opposition.
it's not laughter vs carelessness, I'm talking about the carefree-ness that
comes from laughter, the certainty that
comes from not being certain...
Hmm. Ok, I get that.
is "carefree" and "careless" synonymous to you?
For me, the latter seems to be a negative, the former a positive. Maybe that's what's skewing my reading of it.
good question
"care free" seems more accurate within my vocabulary... the Tao texts use the word Careless, again referencing "The master uses all things carelessly, like used talismans" ... or straw dogs... they are unimportant
I selected the word careless instead of care free because I wanted to touch on the "doesn't care" connotation.
Grayface can't laugh at things, therefore he doesn't give a shit
the Discordian doesn't give a shit about things, but in a "care free" way.
I think the first usage of "Careless" should be changed to a form of "Care free", but then it appears as carelessness three lines later when we juxtapose it with a lack of humor.
"nonchalance"?
thesaurus says:carefree means free of trouble and worry and care while
careless means marked by lack of attention or consideration or forethought or thoroughness; not careful.
Synonyms: airy, at ease, blithe, breezy, buoyant, calm, careless, cheerful, cheery, cool, easy, easy-going, feelgood, happy, happy-go-lucky, insouciant, jaunty, jovial, laid back, radiant, secure, sunny, unanxious, unbothered
ehh not if any of those sound like a natural pair for "Careless"
"a care free heart"?
QuoteFrom uncertainty comes certainty.
From freedom comes direction.
From laughter comes a care free heart.
Certainty untempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like grayface's luggage.
Quote from: Cramulus on May 18, 2009, 04:02:35 PM
thesaurus says:
carefree means free of trouble and worry and care while careless means marked by lack of attention or consideration or forethought or thoroughness; not careful.
Synonyms: airy, at ease, blithe, breezy, buoyant, calm, careless, cheerful, cheery, cool, easy, easy-going, feelgood, happy, happy-go-lucky, insouciant, jaunty, jovial, laid back, radiant, secure, sunny, unanxious, unbothered
ehh not if any of those sound like a natural pair for "Careless"
"a care free heart"?
QuoteFrom uncertainty comes certainty.
From freedom comes direction.
From laughter comes a care free heart.
Certainty untempered by doubt,
direction without freedom,
carelessness without humor:
These things are heavy like grayface's luggage.
Or, we could just break the form and say "Laughter lessens your cares," which turns around nicely to "careless" in the next stanza.
Also:
CH 81:
Words about Truth born form Illusion.
Thoughts of beauty are subjective.
The wise always question.
Those who do not question are not wise.
The scholar always has an answer.
The wise spags are free to learn more.
A conclusion is where you stopped thinking.
Every answer should lead to another question.
This is how the Chao embraces the balance
between the known, and the unknown.
CH 78:
To admit ignorance is to appear weak.
But there is no better way to become wise.
No innovation comes from certainty,
the new does not come from the old.
So the wise spags say.
"Those who admit they are dumb
easily defeat those who are smart.
Those who know of only one solution
will always finish last."
Incidentally, I'm going to be going through and making small grammer/formatting edits. I've identified a few more chapters that may need looking at, but I'll mention them when I'm finished with this task.
*BUMP*
When will the final version be ready?
we don't really have a timeline.
LMNO: continued discussion on chapter 6 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Talk:Chapters_1-10), and Chapters 11 & 13 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Talk:Chapters_11-20). I suggest a full rewrite for 13.
Chapter 26 (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Talk:Chapters_21-30) - your comment is about the tone. I see where you're coming from, but I'd like to flag this one for a third opinion.
Cheers. I'll go take a look.
Suggestion for 13:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Talk:Chapters_11-20#CH_13
Here are some ideas for the ones remaining in discussion:
6.
Chaos is to vast to be named,
but we did anyway. We call her Eris.
If you can see her inside yourself,
you're probably getting penetrated.
If this happens, it's best to just relax your muscles
Because the more you fight the more it hurts.
And she WANTS you to fight back.
11.
The mandlebrot grows in infinite complexity
based on the empty space at it's center.
[insert your own verse in the space above]
See what exists, use what does not.
13.
"Possessing" always comes served with a golden apple.
Being "The prettiest one" cultivates pride and makes others ugly.
Not Being "The prettiest one" cultivates envy and leads to war.
Expand your definition of Self to include the universe.
This way you can have it all with nothing to lose.
26.
Serious is the root of hillarious.
Laughter can be very serious.
The wise spag laughs all day
without the need for jokes.
Being the butt of a joke allows you to be an ass.
When you're an ass, shitting is your only expectation.
Then the voice of the Goddess comes from the inside.
38.
The sacred chao includes both order and disorder.
In the same way, the Self includes the inside and the outside.
To emphasize the inside is to pollute the outside with a grid.
To emphasize the outside is to lose your center.
While it's fun to toy with both,
forgetting that they go together plants the seed of a cabbage.
48.
One of the funniest tricks Eris pulled on the world
Was making us think we ever DO things.
So we tense our muscles, furrow our brows and plug away at life.
Meanwhile, our lady laughs at the silly cabbages TRYING to be spontaneous.
51.
All beings are expressions of Eris.
This Sets the stage for ages of laughter.
All you need is a banana peel and an audience.
After all, laughter is even better when it's shared.
54.
Whoever is slackened by the Chao
Will not be tied down!
(Unless, of course, you like that sort of thing.)
Do what you will to do.
Eris is always honored by instinct,
awaiting convolution.
(i think that's all this chapter really needs, TBH)
74.
When you realize that change is the only constant
there is nothing left to do.
Drop ambition and expectation and
Death will have nothing real to kill.
Let the pieces fall where they may
And have someone else pick them up.
76.
When born, you are closerr to Eris than ever.
Then is no conceptual order or disorder and things simply are.
Growing up, we learn the teachings of Greyface
And receive the 'gifts' of compliance and structure.
Believing this to be reality,
Our bodies become Rigoursly Mortal rather than flexibly free.
Wow. Cool.
I'm gonna need some time to digest this new stuff.
Burnsey, I think I love you.
:mrgreen:
Well, i really did want to contribute more.
EDIT: FYI i messed up #6 and had to go back and modify it.
Confucianism is ELITIST
I just wanted to add this bit in relation to the title.
There are a lot of descriptions regarding the way the title is translated. Superficially, it could be translated as "The Wisdom Book of the Flow of the Virtue of Things". Unfortunately many can't find terms that really explain what that means without going into explanation.
So...
Tao: Often described as "The Way of things" or "Great Integrity" or "The Flow of Things". Or, according to Kerry Thornley in his Zenarchism "Natural Law".
Te: I think "virtue" is the closest. By 'virtue', I think it should be mentioned, isn't necessarily the moral or virtuous person sense of the word (although that might be an effect of living in harmony with the Tao) but more so in the sense of the quality or virtues of a thing. Alan Watts would use "The grains in wood" or "the markings in jade" as an example.
Ching: Simply Sacred Book or Book of Wisdom.
Our version of the CHAO te ching, i think, lends itself quite usefully to our adopted translations because Chao, or the dialectic of order and disorder, seems to be the root of our interpretations. Things like, nonsense as salvation, Lo5s, etc spring from this dialectic in a natural way that, without necessarily taking the 'meaning' of Chao in to consideration while writing our interpretations came on its own accord. How perfect!
ANYWAY what I think I'm trying to get at here is when editing these interpretations, one possible approach is to take the passage in terms of the book title.
Ask: What are the virtues of this passage that best describe the Chao or Tao?
Are there any other main questions that you folks think that all of these passages should be examined under to help express our ideas most clearly?
Is there a non scribd version of this? That site drives me nuts.
It's possible to download it as a PDF or a TXT from Scribd. Just click on the "Download" button.
BTW, is this the final version or is someone else going to reformat it?
It's actually not done yet.
We added Burns' suggestions, and need to do some more refining.
I really want to reformat it and make it look nice, when it's done.
BUMP
PDF updated, still unfinished:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/14714852/Sacred-Chao-Te-Ching
I'm currently scrubbing it for a third time.
Anything I can do?
Grab the PDF, and dust off your editing pencil.
particularly, the later stanzas need a good squint
I reccommend starting at the end and working towards the beginning
Was this ever finished?
If it wasn't i would love to help finish it, i came into discordianism from zen so this is right up my street.
current status:
LMNO and I made a bunch of revisions. He said "Hey can you whip out a new PDF?"
I said sure.
Then I got distracted and didn't do that.
So the text currently on the wiki (http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Sacred_Chao_Te_Ching) is the most current version, whereas the scribd one (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14714852/Sacred-Chao-Te-Ching) is very slightly outdated. There are still 10-15 chapters which need clean-up.
I'd love to hear your thoughts about the text. If there are any chapters you'd like to draw attention to, we can discuss them.
I'm slowly going through the whole thing again, trying to tighten it up.
When this gets finished, I'd really like to get a hardcover version of it. Could we go through Lulu?
Quote from: LMNO on December 22, 2009, 02:39:19 PM
When this gets finished, I'd really like to get a hardcover version of it. Could we go through Lulu?
That'd be brilliant, i would stick it on my shelf next to my real copy of the tao te ching :D
Ill have a look through on the wiki in a bit and see if i can spot anything.
hardcover on lulu would be easy
I've also visualized doing a little 4.25 x 6.87 (pocket size) print. My favorite copy of the TTC was that size.
another thing to consider is cover art
Any chance we could put it on a scroll?
i wouldn't mind giving a shot at some cover art, what kind of things did you have in mind?
Your avatar comes to mind...
maybe a sacred cow of some sort.
overall it should look simple and clean. perhaps with a sort of japanese-calligraphy feel?
Can't believe I missed the initial stages of this, damn!
Once my mind is back, I'll go through the list (at a slow rate of course)
Ill try and wack up a few different designs over the next few days and you can tell me what you think. I think the final idea should definitely include the sacred Chao and/or an actual cow (made sacred in some way).
What dimensions are we looking at because obviously that effects the layout of the cover?
undetermined at this time.
Chapters which need attention: 78 and 81
http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_71-81
Discussion:chapter 79:QuoteIf you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
Therefore the monkeys howl, and fling their poop.
Are you surprised the wise spags are monkeys?
They do not deny how they were born,
nor their contradictory nature.
To deny all the elements that make us human
is worse than an impacted bowel.
The people are all monkeys,
but the wise spag admits it.
I like this chapter and don't think it needs to be touched. But it does sit oddly with me.
See my take on things is that yes, you must shit your hate.
But also, sometimes you don't need to? When you're really pissed off about something, you can fire more pain shrapnel into the world
or you can take a breath and get over yourself.
Do we have a chapter which talks about this? It would be a good balance for 78. Maybe some note like that should go in
71 (whoops!) 78, which needs a new coat of paint anyway? what do you guys think?
for dimensions I would suggest square pages, cause I dunno that seems most tao-te-chingy to me.
I would definitely buy a hardcover copy of this btw.
agree about the japanese calligrpahy-feel. though if someone can think of a good theme that combines japanesene calligraphy elegance with something typically discordianesque, that would be even better. the only thing I can think of would be to do those calligraphy brush things with poop, except that would not be better but simply gross. also too strong and evocative, taking away focus from the texts.
Quote from: Cramulus on December 22, 2009, 04:18:22 PM
I like this chapter and don't think it needs to be touched. But it does sit oddly with me.
See my take on things is that yes, you must shit your hate.
But also, sometimes you don't need to? When you're really pissed off about something, you can fire more pain shrapnel into the world
or you can take a breath and get over yourself.
Do we have a chapter which talks about this? It would be a good balance for 78. Maybe some note like that should go in 71 (whoops!) 78, which needs a new coat of paint anyway? what do you guys think?
I say go ahead.
But I would say that if your hateshit is unproductive, it wasn't righteous enough.
chapter 79 doesn't mention productivity
it just says that you shouldn't deny your monkey nature
monkeys act in a primitive, base way which is often destructive.
LHX suggests (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Pipe_Bombs) that one should use their hateshit to build a brick shithouse. Sublimate the energy into something productive. I think that's great energy. I don't get that vibe from the current 79. 79 makes me think that if somebody cuts me off in traffic, I should go with my gut and injure them physically.
another quick / minor thing I'd like to bring up, which has been itching at me for a while:
QuoteChapter 7
The Universe outside your Prison Cell
has gone on before you, and goes on after you.
It is as unfeeling and uncaring about itself as a Barstool in midflight:
Even if you have convinced yourself it consists mainly of empty space,
you should probably still duck.
So the wise Spags look outside their own brains,
And grasp the surrounding minds.
They see the Bars of their Black Iron Prison,
and so are able to see around them.
Because isn't the other way
tatamount to masturbation?
what's wrong with masturbation?
Masturbation is a standard metaphor and euphamism for doing something unproductive, selfish, and ultimately worthless.
also "tantamount", if I'm not mistaken.
Yes.
I get that masturbation = wasted energy
but if you had fun wasting energy, isn't that okay?
I may be being too literal about that metaphor. It just seems a little bit off to me, because masturbation in itself doesn't sound like something we're against.
To be quite honest, playing little mental games inside your own head isn't really something we're "against", either.
I can have a great time constructing a self-contained reality inside my cell.
re: 78
in the tao te ching, chapter 78 is about the weak overcoming the strong. The flexible overcoming the rigid. And the symbol of this is water - the weakest, most malleable thing in the world, the only thing which can wear down rocks and mountains without any effort at all.
so...
suggested revision for 78---------------------------
It is said that the weak will overcome the strong.
This is true of laughter.
Laughter cannot win wars, but it can win hearts.
It can soften the rigid.
It can unite, it can multiply, it can do long division.
It can thaw the heart's armor of ice.
It can even pull the cloth right off the table while the plates and utensils remain motionless.
Hey, that's a good one. Get it up there!
I said upthread that there's 10-15 stanzas which need attention
I don't think that's true at all. I think we probably only need to do 2 or 3 more and we're done with the "second pass" (as we call it in publishing).
Chapter 79 updated and edited:
The Illuminati and the Discordians have reconciled many times.
But some-one always remains attached to their own butt-hurt.
If you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
And the Sacred Chao wobbles again, as the monkeys howl and fling their poop.
To guard against this, the Wise Spag remembers always
His own obligations to the LULZ, without expecting repayment or reward.
Dancing at the heart of Chaos, Eris plays no favorites.
The LULZ flows as a torrent, but the Wise Spag surfs upon it
Her glorious laughter are his Hodge and his Podge, his vehicle and his prize.
interesting take
To me, 78 and 79 go hand in hand --
78 in the Tao Te Ching is about the weak overcoming the strong, water, and the mystical feminine. So we made the CTC#78 about laughter.
This segues into 79, which talks about recognizing that people are monkeys, and that very often, the monkey nature wins out. Sometimes it's better not to be a passive giggling ninny. I like your 79, but I worry that we snipped some good discussion about the monkey nature.
posted side by side for posterity:
Quote from: Chapter 79 previousIf you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
Therefore the monkeys howl, and fling their poop.
Are you surprised the wise spags are monkeys?
They do not deny how they were born,
nor their contradictory nature.
To deny all the elements that make us human
is worse than an impacted bowel.
The people are all monkeys,
but the wise spag admits it.
Quote from: Telarus on December 28, 2009, 05:04:30 AM
Chapter 79 updated and edited:
The Illuminati and the Discordians have reconciled many times.
But some-one always remains attached to their own butt-hurt.
If you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
And the Sacred Chao wobbles again, as the monkeys howl and fling their poop.
To guard against this, the Wise Spag remembers always
His own obligations to the LULZ, without expecting repayment or reward.
Dancing at the heart of Chaos, Eris plays no favorites.
The LULZ flows as a torrent, but the Wise Spag surfs upon it
Her glorious laughter are his Hodge and his Podge, his vehicle and his prize.
I like the line about laughter being both a vehicle and a prize.
I miss the bit about how even the wise are shit flinging monkeys.
Curiously enough, I'm not sure if we've used the words Hodge or Podge anywhere in this doc. and the illuminatti - I don't think we've used them yet either, so that's an image we'll have to expand a bit, as it's unclear on its own.
I wrote my own take on chapter 79:
Quote
If you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
Therefore the monkeys howl, and fling their poop.
The wise spags admit they are monkeys.
And the wise spags fling poop as they will.
The unwise spags deny they are monkeys.
And the monkeys fling poop as they will.
I'm not sure I like the use of the word 'lulz', it associates us with the whole internet troll thing (which we are, but thats not what this is about).
hodge and podge and the Discordian/Illuminati bit I'm not sure about as well, but more because it introduces new memes at the tail end of the work, that the reader might not be familiar with.
I thought I'd give it a shot, Heres my chapter 79
QuoteWhen the Spag and the Hag fued
Why hold onto hate?
The spag may not care
But the Hag will try to smite.
Therefore, Eris leaves her mark
She will claim the Hag as her own
The Wise Spag has already moved on
But the Hag fumes on.
Eris favours the nature of the Spag.
They were victims of indigestion, you know
note for later:
I feel that 71 still needs something, not sure what
and 81 needs a rewrite too
Quote from: LMNO on December 22, 2009, 03:19:06 PM
Your avatar comes to mind...
I'm gonna try rigging up something a bit cleaner than that.
Edit:
How about this? Fuck the earlier one, this one is more the idea you had.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/ZLB/ChaoTeChing1.jpg)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/ZLB/ChaoTeChing1.jpg (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/ZLB/ChaoTeChing1.jpg)
Quote from: Cramulus on December 28, 2009, 02:12:25 PM
interesting take
To me, 78 and 79 go hand in hand --
78 in the Tao Te Ching is about the weak overcoming the strong, water, and the mystical feminine. So we made the CTC#78 about laughter.
This segues into 79, which talks about recognizing that people are monkeys, and that very often, the monkey nature wins out. Sometimes it's better not to be a passive giggling ninny. I like your 79, but I worry that we snipped some good discussion about the monkey nature.
posted side by side for posterity:
Quote from: Chapter 79 previousIf you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
Therefore the monkeys howl, and fling their poop.
Are you surprised the wise spags are monkeys?
They do not deny how they were born,
nor their contradictory nature.
To deny all the elements that make us human
is worse than an impacted bowel.
The people are all monkeys,
but the wise spag admits it.
Quote from: Telarus on December 28, 2009, 05:04:30 AM
Chapter 79 updated and edited:
The Illuminati and the Discordians have reconciled many times.
But some-one always remains attached to their own butt-hurt.
If you do not shit your hate, you will die.
Who can live, retaining a colon full of hate?
And the Sacred Chao wobbles again, as the monkeys howl and fling their poop.
To guard against this, the Wise Spag remembers always
His own obligations to the LULZ, without expecting repayment or reward.
Dancing at the heart of Chaos, Eris plays no favorites.
The LULZ flows as a torrent, but the Wise Spag surfs upon it
Her glorious laughter are his Hodge and his Podge, his vehicle and his prize.
I like the line about laughter being both a vehicle and a prize.
I miss the bit about how even the wise are shit flinging monkeys.
Curiously enough, I'm not sure if we've used the words Hodge or Podge anywhere in this doc. and the illuminatti - I don't think we've used them yet either, so that's an image we'll have to expand a bit, as it's unclear on its own.
I'm not tied to those memes, so we can go back to the 'monkeys' imagery. The key points of this verse in all the translations I looked at before writing my version seemed to be that expecting or demanding others to fulfill their obligations throws you out of a Tao-mind. Be worried about your own shit while at the same time realizing that other people are domesticated monkeys, so don't expect them _not_ to act like it.
Do this, and the Tao offers/becomes it's own reward.
A brilliant project! I will see what I can throw at it.
I'm gonna take a crack at 71 and 81
What exactly do you think they need?
what do you think they need?
71 I really like as it is. That makes it a bit hard to do better.
for 81 I'm looking through the other 80 chapters for anything that wasn't covered.
71 is fine for me. 78, however, seems a mess.
Quote from: LMNO on December 30, 2009, 01:12:56 PM
71 is fine for me. 78, however, seems a mess.
I will concede on 71 - basically my feeling was that we were saying the same thing that the Tao Te Ching says in 71, but I felt the TTC said it better.
LMNO, you said you liked 78 on the last page - was it the other two lines I added?
and now we have like 3 or 4 versions of 79! ahhh what to do? :lulz:
Ah, fuck. I can't remember back that far.
Right now, I'm proofing the thing. I'll get back into creative mode when I'm done there.
Can someone talk me through the last two lines of chapter 70?
Quote from: LMNO on December 30, 2009, 03:16:21 PM
Can someone talk me through the last two lines of chapter 70?
Chapter 70
There’s nothing to understand
so don’t bother trying.
The mind looks for order,
the body understands the disorder.
These teachings are bullshit,
no meaning at all.
If you want to know any little thing,
try breaking your heart first.no, I actually have no idea what that means :p
that couplet is leftover from honey.
I think it's been left in because it's evocative, though I haven't really thought about it too hard.
the more I look at this chapter, the more I think it needs improvement. I'm not following the mind=order body=disorder thing?
and "nothing has meaning" isn't very chaolike.
Here are the points I get out of it.
The mind is the pattern-maker, but the body just is. Yeah, that's cartesian duality, but this could be a "pragmatic v idealistic" thing here.
"these teachings are bullshit" is nice and self-deprecating.
Breaking your heart can be a way of seeing things from a new perspective.
Hmm, I had only thought about the heart break in terms of a romantic relationship - But I do like the image of a heartbreak as losing something that you were attached to. But must there be sadness? Very interesting.
as for the "pragmatic v idealistic" bit - I think we lose the message in the metaphor
"these teachings are bullshit" - I just have a bit of an allergy to this motion because of some pineal discordians I've been hanging around. They're all obsessed with destroying meaning, and I'm trying to tell them, that's just one half of the coin, man!
so I like the heartbreak image, but if we keep it, I think we need to define it a little better. I don't think the rest of the chapter says anything useful we haven't said elsewhere.
Unrelated ---- posting this for posterity:
LMNO and I had a mini-safari to a Taoist forum where we tried to get some CTC feedback. What resulted was five pages of :boring:. So far the only comment which seems to actually be ABOUT the Chao Te Ching is this one, from fivenoteplusseven:
QuoteThinking about my recent exposure to Discordian thought, it seems as though it could use brasher satire, and more reverse psychology. I haven't read that much though. The Chao De Ching could use more absurdity instead of trying to mirror the original TTC and I think it would be a better read.
Just my thoughts on it, as you asked originally. It did make me think, so that is a good thing.
I think the commenter made some good points. I've stopped work on the Erisesiastes because I felt it just read like a slight variation of the original :-/ I think some reverse psychology might help my block there a lot :)
Uh oh. We've tried to be funny about this kind of stuff in the past.
I know that I don't have that skill, at all.
There are a few places where we've done okay.
Personally, I think chapter 6 (http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_1-10#Chapter_6) is pretty funny
chapters 6 and 9 both reference hip hop wisdom, which seems pretty absurd if this book is in the spirit of the TTC
I do agree that some more humor would probably help this resonate with people emotionally.
We talk about humor a lot (see chapter 51 (http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_51-60#Chapter_51) for example), but we don't actually use a lot of it.
and man - we talk about Order and Disorder a lot. That's fine, because it's kind of important to the Chao, but it does start to repeat itself quite a bit.
Quote from: LMNO on December 30, 2009, 03:54:47 PM
Uh oh. We've tried to be funny about this kind of stuff in the past.
I know that I don't have that skill, at all.
You sell yourself short. You don't tend to produce pineal funny... but I've seen the funny get squeezed out of your fingertips in the past. ;-)
Also, 'absurd' isn't always 'HA HA'. You're one of the masters of horrormirth.
Well, if you guys want to add some absurdity, that's cool. It's all (k), so do what you got to do.
But if it's ok, I may save a copy of this current version and go my own way for a bit.
It's not that I don't like humor, I'm just no good at it when it's non-situational.
Also, I'm a SERIOUS GUY. SRSLY.
Quote from: LMNO on December 30, 2009, 04:17:39 PM
Well, if you guys want to add some absurdity, that's cool. It's all (k), so do what you got to do.
But if it's ok, I may save a copy of this current version and go my own way for a bit.
It's not that I don't like humor, I'm just no good at it when it's non-situational.
Also, I'm a SERIOUS GUY. SRSLY.
can I ask why you want to go your own way? is it that you don't think you can write humor, you don't think the CTC needs humor? I know you're iffy on the Tupac line ;)
I do think we should hold off and make sure we have 81 chapters we
like before we go through and start adding chuckles to it.
I wonder what editorial process we should adapt for endgame. In some ways, we're very close to finished. But in the end, we have 81 small things we've been working on very closely, and haven't spent a lot of time looking at this project broadly--- identifying where we get redundant, what we're missing, whatever. In the beginning I kind of assumed that if we absorbed the spirit of a TTC chapter and adapted it to our purposes, we'd cover all the bases. But as we've learned, Discordia has some different teachings than Taoism, and there are probably holes.
I don't mean this as a flounce, first of all.
I feel that stand-alone humor (i.e. humor out of context) is extremely difficult, and I suck at it. In addition, humor is extremely subjective, and what one person finds amusing, another person doesn't. I never thought the CTC could cover all of the bases, but I am starting to grasp that the one-to-one retellings might get repetitive. It may need to branch out in new ways, and we may need to re-brainstorm.
I'm just saying that if you guys feel the need to insert a bunch of jokes into this, I'm not your man, and I may come up with chapters that cover other Discordian aspects, instead.
BUMP so I can find this later....
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 06:11:12 PM
Crowley was very interested in Eastern belief. He has his own translation of the Tao Teh King http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib157.htm and seemed profoundly interested in their concepts as compared to the Western Christian ones.
might be interesting to read side-by-side our writings.
I printed off the first draft from Cram's Scribd and made a little booklet. I'm not finished reading it just yet, but I wanted to let ya'll know that you've done an awesome job. I'm really enjoying it. :)
thanks! would love to hear some feedback, if you have any
Which reminds me... have you had time to think over my latest revisions?
Quote from: Cramulus on July 15, 2010, 02:34:46 PM
thanks! would love to hear some feedback, if you have any
I'm only about halfway through, but so far, I keep getting struck by how great this would be for people just discovering Discordianism. It seems to spell things out more clearly than any of the other books I've read.
I don't really have any constructive criticism at this point, I just think it's great.
new PDF up
there are some font issues, but otherwise a clean draft.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34652650/Chao-te-Ching
Hey, I noticed something with Verse 24:
Chapter 24
The Grayface believes in Order.
The Anarchist believes in Disorder.
The General sees war.
The Celebrity sees themselves.
The Bureaucrat seeks control.
The Leader acts like a bully on the playground.
The Scientist and the Priest believe in the model.
All these things are balanced in Chaos,
and so do not succeed.
Therefore the followers of Eris like to poke them with sticks.
Shouldn't that be unbalanced in Chaos, and so do not succeed? OR balanced by Chaos?
The individual Thing is balanced out by the other Thing (as is the case with Things in Chaos), and so the individual thing cannot succeed.
Order cannot succeed because of Disorder, etc.
btw, I think my new favorite chapter is #70
(http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_61-70#Chapter_70)
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on July 21, 2010, 08:33:08 PM
The individual Thing is balanced out by the other Thing (as is the case with Things in Chaos), and so the individual thing cannot succeed.
Order cannot succeed because of Disorder, etc.
Ah, I was taking them individually, not as pairs. Thanks.
Quote from: Cramulus on July 21, 2010, 08:39:58 PM
btw, I think my new favorite chapter is #70
(http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_61-70#Chapter_70)
:lol:
"Universe isn't sweaty, why should you be?"
Hahahaha, I was searching for the PDF on scribd to show to a newb in the Intros thread and I found these 'wonderful' discussions on out Chao Te Ching:
http://linwebsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2676&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://clocktopia.net/showthread.php?t=1176
http://www.taoismforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=153&sid=5430707552ad5bdd735ea749bfcf4f6d
:lulz:
It's kinda depressing to see how badly the order/disorder/chaos relationship is understood.
That's because the news uses the word chaos instead of disorder ALL THE TIME.
also, I agree with you.
I wonder if we should come up with different totally nonsensical words to use in conversations like that, so that there's no prior conflict with what we're trying to say and what others have used the words as before.
Or maybe I'd come off as even more of an asshole that way.
Was that you in one of those threads? I think that a few people got the concept (especially the person who asked, "All is Chaos. And then what?"), but some of them were really hung up on their definition of chaos=disorder.
No not me, (I have started a similar thread on a religion forum just now, posted the rough draft and asked for comments, will se where it goes).
My wiki is restored so we can keep moving forward. :mrgreen: (THANKS 000!)
LMNO and I have written two forewards / intros. I like both of them but we could use some feedback
read here: http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Forward_to_the_CTC
Heh. I like your intro, Cram.
i like them both -- very hodge/podge--what could be better?
I just noticed some egregious grammar errors in mine. I gotta go fix that.
now that I've had time to sleep on these---
I really do like both of them!
My one comment for LMNO is that perhaps it the text shouldn't claim to be an important text? (1st paragraph)
And in mine, I'm trying to resolve a mismatch in the dialogue... Lao Tzu asks "If the Tao is everything, how can you go against the Tao?" and Eris basically says "Humans have to balance order and disorder." Which IS an answer, but doesn't really answer the question.
Yeah... I was trying to go for "stuffy academic". I may just cut that line entirely, rather than reverse it and go self-deprecating.
and Eris basically says "how can you not!"
Or maybe some fung shway joke
latest draft: http://www.scribd.com/doc/34652650/Chao-te-Ching
I think we'll do one more editorial pass and then put a fork in it. Feedback welcome. We're in the home stretch. Or maybe we're done already. YOU TELL ME. :p
Here I thought the last one was final.
What changed in this one?
we've done another editorial pass or two since then. We also added a foreward and a preface.
Is there any chance of getting a printed bound copy of this at some point, or would the NC part of BY-NC-SA get in the way of that?
Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 08, 2011, 06:17:12 PM
Is there any chance of getting a printed bound copy of this at some point?
Yes.
Great! It looks fantastic by the way, and I'm really enjoying digging through the latest pdf.
when we're absolutely sure we don't want to change it any more, we'll be releasing it on lulu. We still need to clean up the cover a little, and Murphy's Law of Publishing states that we're about to notice about 12530971057 things we want to change.
I'm going to look into making some limited edition scrolls for wall hanging, too. :p
Quote from: Cramulus on February 08, 2011, 06:50:03 PM
I'm going to look into making some limited edition scrolls for wall hanging, too. :p
If you do, I will owe you
PLENTY.
Laying out the text on 11 x 17 pages .... http://www.scribd.com/doc/48442309/The-Chao-te-Ching-Scrolls
it works out to 10 tabloid-size pages. Quite a bit of space!
I found this how-to about making wall-scrolls. http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_6711648_make-anime-wall-scroll.html - They suggest printing to iron-on transfer paper (can you get that in 11 x 17?) and then ironing it onto fabric, and then hanging the fabric using dowels. Sounds like fun, actually, but probably more trouble than it's worth unless you intend to devote a whole wall to 'em. I don't have room in my house for something like that. :sad:
Makes me wonder... if you had to condense the text down to 3 tabloid-size pages, which chapters would go on it?
I was thinking more that you could keep it rolled up if you wanted, like the Torah.
ahhh .. I didn't think of it that way! good idea. What do you think the best way to attach the pages would be? needle & thread?
It sounds like this is fabric related, and therefore should be referred to the Principality of Suu for further consultation.
A scroll set of this stuff would be freaking awesome if it could be done for a reasonable price.
Hmm, you could possibly just sell the transfers if those would survive shipping.
Considering the Wiki is opensource, and the whole thing is CC BY-NC-SA 3.0, I have no problem with offering increasingly more expensive versions of this.
You can get it free, or you can pay for decent packaging. Your call.
I'd love to hear any design notes you design-spags have on design.
pdf updated... http://www.scribd.com/doc/34652650/Chao-te-Ching
edits:
increased font size on the cover
increased font size for the body
I cleaned up my preface for humor and brevity.
Fixed a small number of typos
Removed the word "Chapter" from each page
still left to-do:
finalize the cover. The image prints darker than the background.
Flip it, then. Red background, black font.
It looks really amazing guys!
Guys, this is fucking great. Fucking. Great. LMNO's intro is perfect. Crams intro I didn't like at first, but when I got to the end, I was all like: "ah, ok."
An aside, I really should start paying better attention. I would have loved to have been a part of this, even a small one. Regardless, great work everyone!
can you give me some more notes about my preface? Looking to tune it tighter. You read the version I posted this morning, right?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 09, 2011, 02:39:05 PM
Flip it, then. Red background, black font.
the problem is that the chao image has a black background. What we could really use is a higher res version of that image we can manipulate; I was tinkering with it in MS Paint and I think I bunged it up further. Kai made it that image, based on Wondering Monk's avatar IIRC.
Ok, bottom of the cover black, so as to blend with the Chao. As you progress up, it fades to grey, so the title is legible.
LMNO
-Doesn't design that often, if you couldn't tell.
Not sure if I can do that with my current software. I'll play around with it...
In the meantime-----
Do you guys have any favorite chapters? What would go on your personal "best of" list?
things I'm considering doing:
1. creating a continuous CTC scroll
2. tabloid paper + image (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:PD-Art_(PD-China)) + single stanza
3. creating a blog where each stanza is its own post
things to consider:
Appendix: the PD's Sacred Chao pages
http://principiadiscordia.com/book/10.php
http://principiadiscordia.com/book/56.php
http://principiadiscordia.com/book/57.php
http://principiadiscordia.com/book/58.php
http://principiadiscordia.com/book/59.php ?
doodling and experiments: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48500915/Chapter-16 - ick that needs a lot of work, but you can see where it's going
I'm positive I can fix that black discrepancy—it's a pretty common problem.
But I would also need to rebuild the image which would also make it nice and crisp.
Quote from: Cramulus on February 09, 2011, 03:15:29 PM
can you give me some more notes about my preface? Looking to tune it tighter. You read the version I posted this morning, right?
hey, just re-read it (and it seems to be updated?) and I realized what it was that wasn't sitting right with me.
It's written in third person, and
I know,
for a fact Cramulus (you) wrote it, and because I know this, it seems weird to me that it's worded as "Alpha Pance and Cramulus," as opposed to "Alpha Pance and I". I'm supposing this wouldn't be an issue for a lot of people, because they don't realize that you (Cramulus) wrote the preface. Shit, I hope I'm making sense.
And as far as different ways of presentation, I'm all for
anything physical that I can put my grubby little paws (and other parts) all over.
Quote from: Cramulus on February 09, 2011, 04:11:57 PM
doodling and experiments: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48500915/Chapter-16 - ick that needs a lot of work, but you can see where it's going
I like the inclusion of imagery, but I think images that would be "right at home" in the Tao te Ching should be avoided.
Instead, I think there's a HUGE amount of Discordian and Discorian related imagery (and other imagery from the meme-sphere) that can be used for a lot of this stuff. Y'know, things from the basic Eye n' the Pyramid, Sacred Chao and Kallisti Apple, in addition to tentacley, Lovecraftian, Cthulu-esque style images. Maybe even some Three Stooges and Sesame St. related pics. Hell, even some WOMPS might be relevant.
Hell, this came to mind as I was posting that:
(http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac28/dimo1138/avatar_5902.png)
It could work some where, and even if not this particular picture, things along this line could be cool.
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 10, 2011, 03:38:50 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 09, 2011, 04:11:57 PM
doodling and experiments: http://www.scribd.com/doc/48500915/Chapter-16 - ick that needs a lot of work, but you can see where it's going
I like the inclusion of imagery, but I think images that would be "right at home" in the Tao te Ching should be avoided.
Instead, I think there's a HUGE amount of Discordian and Discorian related imagery (and other imagery from the meme-sphere) that can be used for a lot of this stuff. Y'know, things from the basic Eye n' the Pyramid, Sacred Chao and Kallisti Apple, in addition to tentacley, Lovecraftian, Cthulu-esque style images. Maybe even some Three Stooges and Sesame St. related pics. Hell, even some WOMPS might be relevant.
Personal taste wise - I really prefer the timeless feel of the unadorned pages. The PD played about with publishing tricks and crazy formatting and that was a little mindfuck at a time of staid publications. It opened the readers mind to new possibilities. It's old now though. Let the words speak for themselves - why
add distraction?
I agree, but I'm probably being selfish and territorial.
Let me try to clarify (my posts have been hastily written lately, as my comp shit the bed, and I'm getting my time in in small slivers).
First, IF there is going to be images, they should NOT be anything close to traditional Taoist images (or anything close to what us Westerners would consider to be Taoist or Eastern imagery), IMO. There's plenty of other symbols and pictures we could use that are more relevent to a Discordian work. I'm not at all lobbying for a mish-mash collage like in the PD, because I don't think that would be appropriate for the text (frankly, I don't understand why you would think, simply because I suggested certain types of imagery, that I was necessarily lobbying for a particular image layout).
That said, it was just a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pance idea/suggestion. Personally, I think the inclusion of some pictures could really liven it up, and would be "appropriate," in the sense that a lot of "Discordian texts" are image/symbol heavy.
And don't get me wrong, I'll take a copy of this regardless of whether or not it has pictures, or if it was written in crayon or if it was stenciled in poo. It's awesome regardless. I just wanted to toss some ideas out while there was still a little time left for changes.
One poo-stencil, coming your way!
Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 10, 2011, 06:00:26 AM
why add distraction?
This bugs me. First, do you get distracted easily by pretty pictures or something? Second, umm, it's a Discordian piece.
Sorry, not trying to be confrontational (well, not in a combatative sense, anyhow), just sayin'
Seriously, tho, like I said, it doesn't
really matter to me.
Hrm. Maybe borders around each page? Can play with images in the borders...
In editing and designing this thing we made a lot of choices. Part of it was that we did want to establish a certain resonance with the Tao Te Ching - after all, the original manuscript was written by reinterpreting the TTC chapter by chapter. (we've diverged a bit since then)
In this edition, one of the design goals was to make it look like a copy of the Tao Te Ching. IMO that the juxtaposition of modern discordia and ancient china is pretty unique ... we're not presenting a Taoist text, we're presenting a new discordian text dressed up like an ancient chinese book of wisdom. I feel that this particular style of text is meant to be read slowly. Contemplated. Digested. And this is served by having a clean page with lots of white space.
(http://www.redefineyourreality.com/taoteching-1.jpg)
anyway, that's our present reasoning.. Feedback is much appreciated though.
chapter 70, for example, comes out best if the book is completely straight-faced
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 10, 2011, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 10, 2011, 06:00:26 AM
why add distraction?
This bugs me. First, do you get distracted easily by pretty pictures or something?
Yes.
That said, I like the scrolls which Cram has been making, but only because they look really nice. I wouldn't study from them, you know? There aren't many words in the CTC - those which are there have been carefully selected and (I guess) sweated over for a couple of years. You add a picture in there - especially something which will mean something different to different people, and all of a sudden what's the point? Either the message you're communicating is no longer yours, or you're reinforcing a singular interpretation.
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 10, 2011, 03:17:50 PM
Second, umm, it's a Discordian piece.
So it should be extra really real Discordian?
I'm more excited about new definitions than reliving old ones.
Quote from: Cuddlefish on February 10, 2011, 03:17:50 PM
Sorry, not trying to be confrontational (well, not in a combatative sense, anyhow), just sayin'
Seriously, tho, like I said, it doesn't really matter to me.
No worries! It's a discordian thread ;-)
Quote from: Cramulus on February 10, 2011, 03:28:20 PM
In editing and designing this thing we made a lot of choices. Part of it was that we did want to establish a certain resonance with the Tao Te Ching - after all, the original manuscript was written by reinterpreting the TTC chapter by chapter. (we've diverged a bit since then)
In this edition, one of the design goals was to make it look like a copy of the Tao Te Ching. IMO that the juxtaposition of modern discordia and ancient china is pretty unique ... we're not presenting a Taoist text, we're presenting a new discordian text dressed up like an ancient chinese book of wisdom. I feel that this particular style of text is meant to be read slowly. Contemplated. Digested. And this is served by having a clean page with lots of white space.
(http://www.redefineyourreality.com/taoteching-1.jpg)
anyway, that's our present reasoning.. Feedback is much appreciated though.
No worries. It makes sense to me. I just got a little PO'ed because it seemed to me that FP was (purposely?) mis-interpreting what I said. It wouldn't be the first time he's done that to somebody. Maybe I'm just being defensive. A thousand pardons.
For the purpose of doing a modest self print run for hiding around the city, whats the largest 'chapter' of the Chao Te Ching (I don't want any of them to take up more than one page on this).
Either 20 or 31.
So, here's the thing: If we include pictures and graphics, I would like to really spend time on them, and make sure the attitude and spirit of each chapter is reflected. If we just threw a bunch of clip art in without thinking about it, I feel that would detract from the whole.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on February 10, 2011, 03:56:11 PM
So, here's the thing: If we include pictures and graphics, I would like to really spend time on them, and make sure the attitude and spirit of each chapter is reflected. If we just threw a bunch of clip art in without thinking about it, I feel that would detract from the whole.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Though, at a second glance, the arguments for and against images are both equally valid, IMO. Maybe adding pictures will just create more work to be done. On the other hand, the appropriate selection of images can hieghten the experience. IF pictures go in, I think it would be easiest to try and determine what type of layout you would want to use first. Every chapter has a picture? Only the "important" chapters get pictures? Maybe a page every once in a while that is ONLY a picture? Once that is determined, then people can start generating images in regards to the determined layout or style.
I'm starting to get a bit out of my depth when it comes to graphics and layout, so I can't speak to what would be best. I can only say that if there are images, we should try to spend at least as much time with them as we did with the words.
Graphics I can definitely help with.
I actually agree with both opinions here.
Have a compiled version that is simple, maybe 1-2 intro illustrations (B&W, similar to the 'zenarchy' scribbles.. I have some good b&w aikido art that I could to a 'version' of)..... then just verse and white pages.
Then, have another version that are just single verses juxtaposed with well thought out art. Make sure each 'page' stands on it own.
You could then split them up for PosterGASM, hide them places, and each would stand individually (and have a reference to the main work, probably a URL somewhere).
I still haven't read through it all the way, due to school work crunch (I have to design a playable RPG level in a week, in the Unreal3 engine as my midterm).
But the Art.. I want in on the Art for this piece.
Quote from: Telarus on February 10, 2011, 07:58:23 PM
I still haven't read through it all the way, due to school work crunch (I have to design a playable RPG level in a week, in the Unreal3 engine as my midterm).
That's an ASSIGNMENT?
Note for the "each page stands on it's own" concept.
Incorporate the Misattributed Quotes game, or similar Image/Memebomb combination, that tie into the verse.
Also that poster that floated up which had "tear off tags" with options and then something written on the back of them.
Quote from: Luna on February 10, 2011, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: Telarus on February 10, 2011, 07:58:23 PM
I still haven't read through it all the way, due to school work crunch (I have to design a playable RPG level in a week, in the Unreal3 engine as my midterm).
That's an ASSIGNMENT?
:lol: I've had problems with the Unreal Dev Kit for a few weeks. I'm about a week behind the class (which means I have an empty level, no textures, props or Kismet-Scripting for events). It's fun to drive the vehicles around on tho.
The specs aren't really as bad as it sounds, I only need to use 1 imported 3d object/texture and have 3 scripted actions/events. There's quote a few environment props and textures in the package. But I'm aiming a bit higher, and trying to make the Unreal terrain system my bitch.
I'm re-creating the village of Hom from Gygax's T1 -Into the Moathouse adventure (for personal use).
Anyway, done spagging the thread up. We can talk about that in Bring&Brag or RPG Ghetto.
A suggestion for illustration, if that's the road you decide to go down:
Art Brut style—use a traditional medium BUT strictly use your non-dominant hand to create it, giving it a loose, childlike quality.
If you decide to forgo illustration, I highly recommend reading at least the first half of "The Elements of Typographic Style" by Robert Bringhurst.
Also, if you had to choose three adjectives that will come through in the aesthetic of the book what would they be? Once you nail these down, the graphic design becomes much easier to discuss and evaluate your efforts against.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the CTC has a Creative Commons license. Should anyone be displeased with how someone put the book together, you can make your own damn version provided you respect the details of the license.
Incidentally, these are my favorite chapters:
Chapter 2
When the people of the world all know Order as Order,
there arises the recognition of Disorder.
When they know there is such a thing as Illusion,
there arises the idea of Reality.
Therefore Order and Disorder produce each other,
Reality and Illusion trick each other,
Authority and Freedom define each other,
Love and Hate fuck each other.
So the wise spags look for balance,
and stick their wrench into the Machine™.
They organize, but they do not Order.
They break apart, but they do not Disorder.
They act, but they Keep Their Fucking Mouths Shut.
And so are able to act again.
Chapter 12
What is Seen distracts from what Is Not;
What is Heard diverts from what Can Not;
What is Believed subverts what Should Not.
The Cell walls we have built
comfort us into ignorance.
But the wise spag does not confuse the meal with the menu,
nor the map with the territory;
Both are approximations.
Chapter 14
We cannot see it, for it blinds us.
We cannot hear it, for it deafens us.
We do not know it exists, for we have built it.
When not seen, we forget it is there.
When not remembered, it binds our choices.
Because it is unnoticed, it is inescapable.
There is neither shape nor form,
but it is as immovable as Iron.
Fight it, and there shall be no victory.
Run from it, and you shall die tired.
So the wise spag moves it,
brick by brick,
and sees a new sunrise every day.
Chapter 17
People who are asleep want Authority to make decisions.
They want an Authority they agree with.
They do not want to be told "no,"
they do not want to be given responsibility.
Authority lacks trust, and will not be trusted.
The wise spag accomplishes their task
and keeps their mouth shut,
so as not to get caught.
Chapter 19
Abandon blind faith and pseudointellectual bullshit,
the people will benefit.
Abandon absolute morality,
the people won't try to kill the Other.
Abandon intellectual copyright,
and there will be nothing to steal.
People will always be distracted by their imagination:
Religion; Territory; Morals; Politics.
Chapter 22
Newton's Third Law is no Illusion:
Each thing contains its opposite.
In Order, there is Disorder.
In Hate, there is Love.
Every human houses a monkey.
Each Machine™ has its self-destruct switch.
Revolutions have Reactionaries as offspring.
So the wise spags stay on their toes,
and avoid labels.
Does not the old saying,
"Think outside the box"
imply that a box exists in the first place?
There is no box.
Chapter 25
There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.
For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.
Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.
Chapter 30
If you're going to do some Covert Ops in the name of Discordia,
keep your head down, and Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut.
A mowhawk is as good as a target during Police Action.
The wise spags toss a wrench into the Machine™,
and then walk away.
They strike against Authority, but don't put it on the Internet.
They subvert the paradigm, but don't stick around to watch.
They mindfuck the people, but don't pat themselves on the back.
If two people know a thing, it is not a secret.
Getting away with it means staying away from it.
Chapter 33
Those who question others are wise.
Those who questions themselves are enlightened.
Those who revolt against the masses seek attention.
Those who revolt against their own biases are brave.
Those who accept through faith are blind.
Those who reject the unproven are foolish.
Chapter 48
If Order and Disorder are illusions,
then turning one into the other
is simple as changing your mind.*
But we tense our muscles, furrow our brows
and plug away at life.
Meanwhile, our Lady laughs at the silly Cabbages
trying too hard to be spontaneous.
*Please note that changing your mind is not simple.
Chapter 61
A successful cabal is like a dust cloud,
arriving from nowhere,
ungraspable,
and fading into nothingness.
The tallest blade of grass gets cut,
while the crab grass creeps unharmed.
Keep your head down.
Keep your fucking mouth shut.
Thus by concentrating on goals
without playing ego games,
much can be accomplished.
If all you want to do
is brag about how cool you are,
you might want learn to play the guitar, instead.
Chapter 63
Don't impose Order.
Don't escalate Disorder.
Unless the situation demands it, of course.
Learn to sabotage the Machine™ without getting caught.
Walk through the crowd unnoticed,
while slipping firecrackers into their pockets.
Become the faceless walking Glitch
who makes everyone's day just a little bit stranger.
The wise spags don't seek recognition,
and so leave a wake behind them wherever they go.
Being an attention whore
is like a magnet for batons
when the riots start.
Chapter 70
These teachings are stupid.
Especially this chapter. It's probably the dumbest one.
Chapter 80
In a place where information is suppressed
and curiosity stifled,
the people will be uncaring, unwise, and not free.
They will rely on tradition as their guides;
They will not make observations,
or try new things,
or experiment,
or play.
They will be suspicious of outsiders
just as they are with new ideas.
Their minds will be as stagnant
as the pond where they dump their garbage.
They are surely as dead as they can be,
though they still draw breath.
Chapter 81
Words are not experiences.
Experiences have no words.
Reading about Laughter
is not the same as laughing.
These Orderly letters only approximate
the spinning Chaos of life.
The Disorder around you
has yet to find a pattern.
Now get out there
and make something happen.