Principia Discordia

Justice has abandoned us. That's the core of it. The little spark that tells us "this is wrong" has up and died on us. I don't know when and I don't know how, but it's gone.

This realization came upon only a couple minutes ago after I had a run in with one of my friends. Now this friend is one of the folks at my school who gets picked on continually. It's gone on as long as I've known him. I've always backed him up, always made sure that it never got physical, but not letting him rely on me for rescue. So, I'm just walking around and I see this kid, Mikey. Mikey is another friend of mine, and he gets it even worse than my first friend. He's overweight, intelligent, and quiet, the small town triumvirate of victimization. And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

I lost it. I've been betrayed by friends, tricked by people who claimed to like me, all kinds of shit, but nothing has ever infuriated me like watching Jake torment poor Mikey. My hands shook, my face went red, and I tear Jake a new one. I scare the living shit out of him. He goes white and when I finally let the little bastard go, he runs.

Now, I understand. Justice is gone. The Lady is curled up in a dark corner, crying out of sightless eyes. She bleeds from her palms, and she screams out at the world "What have you done?". We don't here her though. We're too busy drowning ourselves in pools of our own vomit and excrement, our only pleasure being the mindless cruelties we inflict on each other. Sure, we have courts and anti-bullying seminars and all the garbage that authority throws at us. But it's all just a blindfold, one making us as blind as Lady Justice.

The Lady Justice, that blindfolded bitch. She sold her scales to bureaucrats to count our their bribes. She gave her sword to the abusers so that they wouldn't hurt her. And she gave us her blindfold so we couldn't see what she had done.

The victim becoming the abuser is just a catalyst for me. It led me to an epiphany. We can't rely on Lady Justice to save us, or to even point us in the right direction. She's blind for Christ's sake! No. Justice is a dead memory. But there's Vengeance. It's not pretty and it's never fair, but at least it does something. When the greater good has sold its soul, we have to turn to the lesser evil.

Justice is gone. Time for Vengeance.

Or kill me

Hmm. Anyone have anything to say? I've gotten mostly Fuck You's off of the poll, but oh well. Even if you hated it, say so.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 10:13:25 PM
Hmm. Anyone have anything to say? I've gotten mostly Fuck You's off of the poll, but oh well. Even if you hated it, say so.

Patience, grasshopper.  I will respond in the morning, when I am still all fucked up on pills.

Okay, thanks. As long as I know I'm going to get feedback, I can wait for it.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 10:16:38 PM
Okay, thanks. As long as I know I'm going to get feedback, I can wait for it.

Yeah, it blows when a rant just sits.  I'd rather get shit on than just have a rant sink.

I like it a bunch, and I will respond properly tomorrow.  I lack time right now, and the right frame of mind.

Fair enough. I look forward to your reply.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
Justice has abandoned us. That's the core of it. The little spark that tells us "this is wrong" has up and died on us. I don't know when and I don't know how, but it's gone.

You state it as if there used to be a universal moral system upon which "justice" was built on. There is still for each one of us that "this is wrong", but, its very much slanted to our own benefit.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
This realization came upon only a couple minutes ago after I had a run in with one of my friends. Now this friend is one of the folks at my school who gets picked on continually. It's gone on as long as I've known him. I've always backed him up, always made sure that it never got physical, but not letting him rely on me for rescue. So, I'm just walking around and I see this kid, Mikey. Mikey is another friend of mine, and he gets it even worse than my first friend. He's overweight, intelligent, and quiet, the small town triumvirate of victimization. And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

So oh, youre the little shining armor paladin thats out to make justice in the schoolyard?

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
I lost it. I've been betrayed by friends, tricked by people who claimed to like me, all kinds of shit, but nothing has ever infuriated me like watching Jake torment poor Mikey. My hands shook, my face went red, and I tear Jake a new one. I scare the living shit out of him. He goes white and when I finally let the little bastard go, he runs.

Maybe this isnt "justice" maybe its you simply being "anal" and wanting to control the power relations that happen around your watch. If you really cared for either of them, you would teach them how to stick up for themselves, instead of treating them like your own personal pets for which you play a little game of "escort missions" every lunchbreak.

Quote from: JohNyx on November 05, 2009, 10:22:41 PM
Maybe this isnt "justice" maybe its you simply being "anal" and wanting to control the power relations that happen around your watch. If you really cared for either of them, you would teach them how to stick up for themselves, instead of treating them like your own personal pets for which you play a little game of "escort missions" every lunchbreak.

QFT.

This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Thats humans for you.

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

I dont think that paradigm other than evolution/economy applies really.

Social-interaction wise i think its a horrible way to see the world.

I dont pick on people; people dont pick on me.

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Thats humans for you.

I expect more. (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/more.html)

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

Justice is balance.  Doing harm to a monkey is wrong.  Doing harm to a monkey because that monkey harmed another monkey is justice.  So justice is tolerated, or rather welcomed, as the only socially acceptable form of vengeance.

But most bullies were bullied themselves.  So the balance justice wields is always in a subjective context, it cannot hope to right all wrongs and so it does not try.  Oh there are rules we create from simple schoolyard creeds to byzantine laws of the land, and from that we extract the desired feeling of clarity that comes from formulaic categorisation.  Really though, we just want to see another bleed, right one wrong for the ten which got away.

So justice is "fuck you".  It's the option left a monkey pissed off that he follows the rules out of fear and sees them being broken without consequence on a daily basis.  It's not the best option, but it is the most satisfying, and that's why it got my vote.

QuoteMaybe this isnt "justice" maybe its you simply being "anal" and wanting to control the power relations that happen around your watch. If you really cared for either of them, you would teach them how to stick up for themselves, instead of treating them like your own personal pets for which you play a little game of "escort missions" every lunchbreak.

I don't want to control anyone. All I've done is make sure that they backup if it gets physical. I don't try and rescue them (well not usually, this time I did). I always tell them that they need to stick up for themselves, and that all I can do is make the situation worse. This time though, I was caught off guard. Seeing Jake do something like that made something snap.

QuoteThis is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Fair enough. I can appreciate where you're coming from, but I can't get behind your views either. People aren't prey. There are scavengers and predators, but a person is never just prey.

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:50:07 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Thats humans for you.

I expect more. (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/more.html)

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

Quote from: FP on November 05, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
Justice is balance.  Doing harm to a monkey is wrong.  Doing harm to a monkey because that monkey harmed another monkey is justice.  So justice is tolerated, or rather welcomed, as the only socially acceptable form of vengeance.

Justice is preventing that harm through education and social policy which makes committing said harm undesirable. Your idea of justice is, as you said, vengeance.

QuoteBut most bullies were bullied themselves.  So the balance justice wields is always in a subjective context, it cannot hope to right all wrongs and so it does not try.

So what if the bully was bullied? That justifies nothing!

Anything that does not seek to right/prevent all wrongs does not deserve the name Justice.

QuoteOh there are rules we create from simple schoolyard creeds to byzantine laws of the land, and from that we extract the desired feeling of clarity that comes from formulaic categorisation.  Really though, we just want to see another bleed, right one wrong for the ten which got away.

The system sucks. What else is new? Why not work toward creating a better system?

QuoteSo justice is "fuck you". It's the option left a monkey pissed off that he follows the rules out of fear and sees them being broken without consequence on a daily basis.  It's not the best option, but it is the most satisfying, and that's why it got my vote.

That's not justice; it's rebellion.

-toa,
doesn't know why he feels so strongly about this

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:56:39 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:50:07 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Thats humans for you.

I expect more. (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/more.html)

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

You didn't say it was wrong, either. Without a statement to the contrary, most people assume endorsement.

Also, Utopia may not be possible, but why should that stop us from trying?

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:04:09 PM
-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Who is this other anonymous, and what have you done with the other anonymous?

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:04:09 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:56:39 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:50:07 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 10:47:34 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 10:37:03 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.

That's not a choice; it's a dilemma. Either commit violence which is bad, or be subjected to violence which is bad.

All this talk of predator/prey reminds me of rape culture 101 (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html)

Thats humans for you.

I expect more. (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/05/more.html)

-toa,
this is where everybody laughs at me

I didn't say it was RIGHT. Humans fucking suck. If its not one thing its another, and there will never be "utopia". Since human morality is cyclical, you can never work towards anything except temporary moral action in yourself and those immediate to you. Believing anything else is believing that humans are rational, far sighted beings of "inherent good", whatever that might be. Which they aren't.

You didn't say it was wrong, either. Without a statement to the contrary, most people assume endorsement.

Also, Utopia may not be possible, but why should that stop us from trying?

-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Because people who seek utopia have no problem finding the ends justify the means.

Justice is always symbolized by a set of scales.
Who is putting what on the scales?
More importantly:
Who or what is holding the scales?
Both of these variables are important because they give substance to an intangible concept, and also because they determine your parameters.

Justice is gone?
What was it doing before it left? Napping?

I think of Justice the same way I think of Heroism, as myths, wishful thinking.
Or rather, Dirt Monkeys are advanced enough to recognize that Justice is something we should strive for, but not advanced enough to implement it.

We tried, and we got Law. Or at least the hope of organized Justice led to Law.*

*Broad Brush.

Quote from: Kai on November 05, 2009, 11:22:39 PM
Because people who seek utopia have no problem finding the ends justify the means.

You have a point. Unless we start with the understanding that there are no ends, only new beginnings.

:rainbows:

-toa,
there should be a fluffy clouds and pink bunnies emoticon

Quote from: FP on November 05, 2009, 11:09:33 PM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:04:09 PM
-toa,
is inherently good and refuses cynical denials

Who is this other anonymous, and what have you done with the other anonymous?

I am my own alt.

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:01:48 PM

Quote from: FP on November 05, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
Justice is balance.  Doing harm to a monkey is wrong.  Doing harm to a monkey because that monkey harmed another monkey is justice.  So justice is tolerated, or rather welcomed, as the only socially acceptable form of vengeance.

Justice is preventing that harm through education and social policy which makes committing said harm undesirable. Your idea of justice is, as you said, vengeance.

No. Else a bigger chunk of the money that pours into the legal system would be spent on direct education and direct social policy.

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:01:48 PM

QuoteBut most bullies were bullied themselves.  So the balance justice wields is always in a subjective context, it cannot hope to right all wrongs and so it does not try.

So what if the bully was bullied? That justifies nothing!

Anything that does not seek to right/prevent all wrongs does not deserve the name Justice.

Anything which seeks the impossible is stupid. It needs no other name.

If a conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking, then justice is simply where you stopped spanking monkeys.

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:01:48 PM

QuoteOh there are rules we create from simple schoolyard creeds to byzantine laws of the land, and from that we extract the desired feeling of clarity that comes from formulaic categorisation.  Really though, we just want to see another bleed, right one wrong for the ten which got away.

The system sucks. What else is new? Why not work toward creating a better system?

Why not indeed. But unless you find a way to quell (or divert?) the monkey bloodlust for vengence, then you're not going to come up with something better.

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 05, 2009, 11:01:48 PM

QuoteSo justice is "fuck you". It's the option left a monkey pissed off that he follows the rules out of fear and sees them being broken without consequence on a daily basis.  It's not the best option, but it is the most satisfying, and that's why it got my vote.

That's not justice; it's rebellion.

-toa,
doesn't know why he feels so strongly about this

It's conformity demanding conformity out of spite.

FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

Lets find Justice in Forgiveness. Could you find forgiveness for a gang schmuck who killed your whole family because he was paid to kill the guy in your neighbors place but busted into the wrong house? That is why justice is not possible in human society.
8)

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 06, 2009, 12:04:00 AM
FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

I fear there may be a bit of an "emperors new clothes" thing going on, since I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about and I'm just expressing my opinion. Sorry if I came across as unfriendly though - I'm a friend to anyone who'll have me.

-FP,
is "easy" that way.

Quote from: FP on November 06, 2009, 12:50:20 AM

Quote from: the other anonymous on November 06, 2009, 12:04:00 AM
FP: Hi. Let's be friends.

-toa,
impossibly stupid

I fear there may be a bit of an "emperors new clothes" thing going on, since I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about and I'm just expressing my opinion. Sorry if I came across as unfriendly though - I'm a friend to anyone who'll have me.

-FP,
is "easy" that way.

I didn't think you were unfriendly. I was just backing out of the debate.

-toa,
is "non-confrontational" that way

Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 06, 2009, 01:14:19 AM
Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

It's because it's always the right answer.

Quote from: A giant cock mongler on November 06, 2009, 01:23:28 AM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 06, 2009, 01:14:19 AM
Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

It's because it's always the right answer.

YAY ! FUCKING ME IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ANSWER! :D

QuoteYAY ! FUCKING ME IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT ANSWER! Big grin

Ha! See? Wonderful.

Quote from: Alty on November 05, 2009, 11:25:56 PM
Justice is always symbolized by a set of scales.
Who is putting what on the scales?

More importantly:
Who or what is holding the scales?

Both of these variables are important because they give substance to an intangible concept, and also because they determine your parameters.

You made me think today.  Thanks.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 06, 2009, 01:14:19 AM
Know what's one thing I love about this place? If I put Fuck You as an option to a poll, the majority of people will take it. I'm not being sarcastic. It's funny as hell.

In general, polls need a "nonsense" answer to be valid.  Real polls have some kind of "don't know / don't care / unsure" answer - the simple act of making a respondent choose one way or the other when they don't like either of the options biases the results.

That's why I add Fuck You. Well, that and for the humor.

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

Quote from: GA on November 06, 2009, 03:54:49 AM
So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I like the way you think.
Of course, you have to make sure that the group you're in really does care about you, and that you're not just another component in a vast unfeeling mechanism. But I see what you're getting at. Really, it's a matter of balance between individualism and collectivism. Ideally, one would provide optimal contribution to a working society that one loves to be a part of while still retaining a sense of individual identity and independent thought.
Actually, fuck that. That's boring. You're boring. ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!  :crankey:

But really, I like the general idea, I just don't think one should become solely dedicated to the well-being of the group above all else. Which I think you addressed.

I can understand why you snapped in the OP, but then again, the actions of Jake were entirely understandable.

If your ego is constantly hindered and warped by being picked on, it won't restore itself to health just because you removed the bully.  It will stay deformed until he makes deciscive steps to correct the problem within himself.  Because his ego is shaped to fit the Bully Game, he will keep playing it out, in whatever role he can find. 

Removing the pressure doesn't strenghthen the character.  The Justice you appear to be seeking comes from the core of every individual who starts acting like a biped, and stops playing out the same silly monkey games.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

Why so upset?  This is normal monkey behavior.  Jake gets his ass kicked by a bigger monkey, so he now has a drive to ensure that he isn't at the bottom of the pecking order, so he beats hell out of an even smaller monkey, to establish his place in the pack (This is how Southern aristocrats convinced poor Whites to fight to establish a permanent aristocracy in the South a couple of hundred years ago...they would not be on top, but they would be guaranteed not to be on the bottom).

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

And where do you fit in?  You're using your slightly higher place in the pecking order to enforce your values with respect to the lesser monkeys.  Please note that this is not necessarily a bad thing, and is also perfectly normal.  In fact, the entire system is - in all primates - kept from turning into hell based on the fact that some of the stronger monkeys have values that are worth enforcing.

Justice isn't dead.  Justice just relies on the right monkey in the right place at the right time.  If I were you, I'd drag Jake aside and ask him what the fuck he was thinking (now that you obviously have his attention).  See if you can make Jake a better monkey.

The question however, is whether "normal" is the desired behavior.

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
The question however, is whether "normal" is the desired behavior.

Normal is what you're going to get, LMNO.  The system will not change.  What people do WITHIN that system can be changed, if monkeys on top can be tricked or taught to do what's desired.

A subtle but distressing difference, to be sure.

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 04:05:56 PM
A subtle but distressing difference, to be sure.

One of the few original ideas that RAW expressed that was worth a fuck is that humans fail to realize that they are primates, and their primate wiring causes people to act in ways that seem fucked up, when all we're doing is following 2 million+ years of programming.  Interestingly enough, the people complaining typically do the very same things, but don't see it because they're doing it automatically.

Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 03:43:46 PM
This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

Interesting.  Terrorists and insurgents, excluding periods of extreme activity which could induce battle stresses like that in an army, display similar mental fortitude - the findings of a particular former CIA psychiatrist, not to mention the case history of hundreds of European terrorists in prison shows they also have an exceptionally low incidence of insanity (something like 0.4%, excluding those who got tortured until they had a mental breakdown, etc).

I wonder if it's authoritarianism or group-bonding, though.  Terrorists typically display authoritarian personality leanings, and usually any sort of cell-structure suggests a level of organisation that is pretty clearly defined, if not explicitly so (this guy is the planner, this one is the bomb-maker, the driver, the financier etc) and with their own levels of authority to each particular role (planner > bombmaker > driver etc).

But both terrorist and military training tends to produce incredibly strong in-group/out-group distinctions.  I wonder if this isn't also a factor, since if you make it strong enough, it might create both a sense of belonging and meaning (which would contribute to mental stability) and create the sort of atmosphere where productive work takes precedence over attempting to establish rank and pecking orders all the time.

Of course, it could be both, there is no reason why the two factors cannot work in tandem, I'm just curious which one has more of an effect.

Anyway, just throwing that in, as food for thought.  You can all return to discussing justice, if you want.

If I understand it correctly, if you give yourself up to a Fourth Circuit institution (which controls morals, ethics, and social behaviors), they provide you with a pre-fab set of behaviors for C1-C3, as well; that is, they provide saftey, status, and a common language.  If insulated from other groups, this will tend to create (relatively) stable mental states; and of course, by "stable" I mean not subject to internal dissent or dissonance, not "not bat-shit crazy".

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

Quote from: GA on November 06, 2009, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:05:31 PM

Quote from: GA on November 06, 2009, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

NO VACATIONS TIL YOU COMMENT ON MY CONTRIBUTION TO THE FREAD!

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

TGRR,
Values your opinion.

Quote from: Cain on November 06, 2009, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 03:43:46 PM
This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

Interesting.  Terrorists and insurgents, excluding periods of extreme activity which could induce battle stresses like that in an army, display similar mental fortitude - the findings of a particular former CIA psychiatrist, not to mention the case history of hundreds of European terrorists in prison shows they also have an exceptionally low incidence of insanity (something like 0.4%, excluding those who got tortured until they had a mental breakdown, etc).

I wonder if it's authoritarianism or group-bonding, though.  Terrorists typically display authoritarian personality leanings, and usually any sort of cell-structure suggests a level of organisation that is pretty clearly defined, if not explicitly so (this guy is the planner, this one is the bomb-maker, the driver, the financier etc) and with their own levels of authority to each particular role (planner > bombmaker > driver etc).

But both terrorist and military training tends to produce incredibly strong in-group/out-group distinctions.  I wonder if this isn't also a factor, since if you make it strong enough, it might create both a sense of belonging and meaning (which would contribute to mental stability) and create the sort of atmosphere where productive work takes precedence over attempting to establish rank and pecking orders all the time.

Of course, it could be both, there is no reason why the two factors cannot work in tandem, I'm just curious which one has more of an effect.

Anyway, just throwing that in, as food for thought.  You can all return to discussing justice, if you want.

I think it's both, but I think the clear heirarchy thing is more important.  Primates NEED that.

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:05:31 PM

Quote from: GA on November 06, 2009, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

I stopped reading GA's post right after "To extend your biological metaphor".

Because it was obvious the point had been missed.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 03:43:46 PM

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

Why so upset?  This is normal monkey behavior.  Jake gets his ass kicked by a bigger monkey, so he now has a drive to ensure that he isn't at the bottom of the pecking order, so he beats hell out of an even smaller monkey, to establish his place in the pack (This is how Southern aristocrats convinced poor Whites to fight to establish a permanent aristocracy in the South a couple of hundred years ago...they would not be on top, but they would be guaranteed not to be on the bottom).

This can be observed in any primate band, with the exception of military-style organizations, where the pecking order is already established, and noted by what the individual monkey has on his collar.  This is why the military has a lower incidence of insanity (during peacetime - in wartime, other stresses are introduced that have an unrelated effect) than is found in the general population.

And where do you fit in?  You're using your slightly higher place in the pecking order to enforce your values with respect to the lesser monkeys.  Please note that this is not necessarily a bad thing, and is also perfectly normal.  In fact, the entire system is - in all primates - kept from turning into hell based on the fact that some of the stronger monkeys have values that are worth enforcing.

Justice isn't dead.  Justice just relies on the right monkey in the right place at the right time.  If I were you, I'd drag Jake aside and ask him what the fuck he was thinking (now that you obviously have his attention).  See if you can make Jake a better monkey.

You say it so much better than I do!!!  Our place (and yes I consider myself a "higher" primate) is to do exactly as you say here Roger, make sure the stronger monkeys with the values and priorities worth having are the ones we put into position to run the group. 

The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values, the problem is so few of them are willing to stand up for those values.  Should we shelter the smaller monkeys and allow them to grow up "hassle free"?  I don't think so.  If we don't allow them to fight their way up the pecking order, what have they learned?  Yes, when they get out of hand a larger monkey should step in and try to make it right, but, we cannot just clear the path completely or we end up with a bunch of monkeys who think their shit doesn't stink when they fling it!

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:54:26 PM


The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:56:10 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:54:26 PM


The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

Zang!

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:56:10 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:54:26 PM


The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James.....  :wink:

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:01:58 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:56:10 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:54:26 PM


The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James.....  :wink:

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

James, as described in this incident (and references to others) is one of the larger monkeys, relatively speaking.

Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:07:25 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:01:58 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:56:10 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:54:26 PM


The issue I find is many of the "smaller" monkeys actually have the better values,

Like Jake?

No, more like Dr. James.....  :wink:

Jake hasn't worked his way up to "smaller" monkey yet.  He's still an infant on the teat!

James, as described in this incident (and references to others) is one of the larger monkeys, relatively speaking.

:lulz: 

It's all relative though right?

Dr. James get's it, whether he is willing to fight to enforce it remains to be seen!

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 05:14:46 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

Wait a second... That's kind of defeatist.  It seems to imply that not only are people like us (well, some of us) constantly at odds and in cognitive dissonance with out "true selves", but that also, we can never win.

I usually think of Monkey Mind as the "default setting" but we can take the controls back if we pay attention to what's going on.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

No, I think Jake needed to be screamed at.  It's the only language he'd understand in that situation.

Protecting the weaker members of society is not an undesirable thing.  Unless you're a libertarian, of course.

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:23:34 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 05:14:46 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
Yeah.  I tried to incorporate this into the BIP concept, as "Monkey Mind".

It's the only mind there is.

No matter what that Hemmingway fuck said.

Wait a second... That's kind of defeatist.  It seems to imply that not only are people like us (well, some of us) constantly at odds and in cognitive dissonance with out "true selves", but that also, we can never win.

I usually think of Monkey Mind as the "default setting" but we can take the controls back if we pay attention to what's going on.

I disagree.  I think the monkey mind has good qualities as well as bad.

But even if you're acting in "good monkey" mode, you're still a monkey.  Our "true selves" ARE primates.

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:26:32 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:30:08 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:26:32 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

Hell i was thinking more along the lines of a smack upside the head and a WTF is wrong with you you fucking idiot?" But you don't have to scream to do that yanno? :D

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:47:05 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:30:08 PM

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 07:26:32 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:24:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:21:34 PM

Quote from: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 07:10:08 PM
Yeah.  He saw that people were acting like monkeys, and reacted by throwing his poop at Jake.

And?

We're all monkeys.  At least he was trying to be a better monkey.

trying to be a better monkey... by acting like a monkey?


I mean, I understand the impulse, but there's got to be a better way than screaming at Jake.

And it is THAT step that makes a better, stronger, bigger monkey! 

Well, I suppose he could have wrung his hands and lamented that Jake was being a shit.  I think it's better that he explained to Jake that Jake was being a shit, in a manner that Jake would understand in the frame of mind he was in at the time.

Hell i was thinking more along the lines of a smack upside the head and a WTF is wrong with you you fucking idiot?" But you don't have to scream to do that yanno? :D

When the rock hits you, holler.

The problem is that I might have made it worse by doing something. Mikey was just ignoring them, which while it works well, also doesn't change the situation. When I yelled at Jake though, I upset the situation. My interaction with the scene threw a ton of new variables into it. Screaming at Jake might have resulted in Mikey getting his ass kicked the next day, which it didn't. Also, by essentially rescuing Mikey, I might have put it into his head that I'll do that next time and every time after that. That doesn't help him either.

While I'm not sure I made the wrong decision, I definitely did not make the smart decision. I made a gamble, and if it had gone wrong, then it wouldn't be me who suffers for it. It's a puzzle.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 06, 2009, 08:52:32 PM
The problem is that I might have made it worse by doing something. Mikey was just ignoring them, which while it works well, also doesn't change the situation. When I yelled at Jake though, I upset the situation. My interaction with the scene threw a ton of new variables into it. Screaming at Jake might have resulted in Mikey getting his ass kicked the next day, which it didn't. Also, by essentially rescuing Mikey, I might have put it into his head that I'll do that next time and every time after that. That doesn't help him either.

While I'm not sure I made the wrong decision, I definitely did not make the smart decision. I made a gamble, and if it had gone wrong, then it wouldn't be me who suffers for it. It's a puzzle.

I think you did the right thing.  But I think you need to follow up with Jake in a more reasonable, calm fashion.

Probably. I tore him down in a harsh fashion, now I have to build him back up sans some of  the asshole parts.

note: I wrote half of this post a couple of hours ago, then I got distracted and forgot about it, and I just found this tab still open, so it's a bit stale maybe:

My take: Justice is when Wrongs are Righted.

That reduces the problem to the question what is Wrong and what is Right, which is the field of Ethics in philosophy, about which a shitload of books have been written but no real consensus has been reached (utilitarianism seems to work pretty well, but sometimes also not, or it's just hard). Anyway, I refer you to that. If you got a good professor, that illustrates the theories with interesting examples (which happen to be the only bits of philosophy that you ever hear about btw), it's some really interesting stuff. Maybe you won't learn what is Right and Wrong, but you will learn about nearly every ethical system people have come up with and how to poke holes in it! And the next best thing after knowing the correct answer, is of course to know why everybody else's answer is wrong ;-)

In addition, if you search in TFYS, Cain started a good thread about "virtue ethics" -- and then I got distracted and didn't finish the post until I came back to this tab a few hours later.

I brought up the virtue ethics (I hope I remembered the name right) because it appears to be a system for determining norms and values that in a lot of ways resonates with Discordian ideas about right and wrong, at least the way they're presented by many/some people on this board.

and just because I'm nice I looked up the thread for ya: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=14216.0 [however I'm not sure how related it is to the topic]

----------

in addition to that I wanted to say I loved that little discussion between LMNO and TGRR on the previous page. it's a conundrum I've been switching back and forth upon when pondering on ethics in a Discordian light. As it stands right now, I think Roger is right, but on the other hand I believe and act more according to the view described by LMNO.

it's not very cognitively consonant.

Thanks for the link, Triple. And ya, I've been enjoying the debate a lot myself. Few things are more satisfying than a thread being host to great conversation.

Quote from: Khara on November 06, 2009, 06:05:31 PM

Quote from: GA on November 06, 2009, 03:54:49 AM

Quote from: Khara on November 05, 2009, 10:31:29 PM
This is good.  I can appreciate where you are coming from.  I just don't quite agree.  Life is survival of the fittest which means everyone is trying to prove their worth.  Part of that is you are either predator, prey or scavenger.  Predators survive.  Scavengers are prey who have evolved into finding their own prey, yet haven't made that step to predator.  Prey is prey.  

Now your friend Jake is a scavenger.  He's working his way up.  Your friend Mikey, well he either needs to step up to the plate or he is and always will be prey.  But it is HIS CHOICE.  He chooses not to fight back.  He chooses to put up with the bullshit.  I have a freckle faced 15 year old son with bright red kinky curly hair and crooked teeth, skinny as a rail.  His prey potential started in the freaking womb.  But you know what, he's a serial predator.  He refused to let anyone try and give him shit.  He came out fighting and never allowed anyone the chance to make him prey.  

The problem is when prey goes postal and decides to take as many predators as they can with them on their way out.

In any event, there is no justice, there never has been.  

Vengeance doesn't need to be fair, it just needs to be painful.

So your solution is "become a sociopath?"

To extend your biological metaphor... have you ever heard of these animals called "elephants" ?  They're a somewhat rare species restricted to parts of Africa, India, and public zoos, so you might not have encountered one before.  Anyway, these fuckers are big.  They're bigger than any other extant land animal.  They're like organic tanks.  They have teeth that are, I kid you not, like a meter long.  Why on earth do you need teeth that big?  Even T-Rex only had teeth about 8" long, and it ate dinosaurs.

So what do elephants eat?  What prey has it evolved to take down?  Grass.  50% grass, plus assorted other veggies, and fruit when they can get it.

But that's ridiculous!  you say.  How can that much meat go around just eating grass?  Why hasn't a naturally superior predator come around and eaten them all millennia ago?  Survival of the fittest, right?

Well, yes, but "fittest" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.  "Fittest" doesn't mean "lean mean killing machine."  It means "fittest."  And elephants are smart - they stick together.  They know there is no land animal (besides an armed human) on earth that can kill an adult without getting very, very lucky, and none that can take on a group of elephants (humans usually aren't dumb enough to try, but sometimes they are desperate.)  When lions show up, gazelles scatter, but elephants form a phalanx, young in the middle, warriors on the outside.  An elephant could kill any other extant land animal - but they don't have to (except people.  Indian elephants make an exception for people and raid villages periodically.)

The solution is not to become the perfect predator.  When a predator runs out of prey, it dies.  When it gets slow, it dies.  Predators are cowards - they go after the easy prey because they know if a prey fights back and injures it, it won't be able to catch the next one.

The solution is to find a group that will stand behind you, while you stand behind them in return.  Or, if you can't or don't want to, become so big that nothing can hurt you if you don't wish it.  Become so flexible that you can roll with any blow.

I really cannot respond without being such a fucking cunt I'll have to take a vacation. 

I used predator, prey and scavenger to try and keep my response nice.  Not for the reasons you read into it.

What I read into you comment was that you saw only two fundamental paths for a person; either a victim or a victimizer.  I posit that one can become neither, a person who is neither victimized nor victimizes others.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong righted", zero. The essence of a wrong is an immoral action. You can't change the past so you can't possibly make the immoral action into a moral action. Nor will making a moral action somehow balance out the previous immoral action and make everything aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll better. Not to mention that the usual stance of justice as a wrong righted is taking a generally thought to be immoral action and deeming it to be moral when used against a certain entity. This is not more than closure in the form of vengeance.

I mean, its perfectly fine if you want to believe in justice but it shouldn't be made out as something moral or /noble/. Just more monkeys shitting on each other.

Hm, I gotta think about that. It's kind of late over here for ethics, so that'll have to be tomorrow.

Quote from: Kai on November 06, 2009, 11:37:39 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong righted", zero. The essence of a wrong is an immoral action. You can't change the past so you can't possibly make the immoral action into a moral action. Nor will making a moral action somehow balance out the previous immoral action and make everything aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll better. Not to mention that the usual stance of justice as a wrong righted is taking a generally thought to be immoral action and deeming it to be moral when used against a certain entity. This is not more than closure in the form of vengeance.

I mean, its perfectly fine if you want to believe in justice but it shouldn't be made out as something moral or /noble/. Just more monkeys shitting on each other.

Leibniz thought you could.  He explains the Problem of Evil by saying that while there may be evil, God figures out a way to turn it into good with interest.  Note that you still go to hell for your actions, even though they lead to the improvement of the world which is greater than it would be if you had just acted morally in the first place.

On a more serious note, I personally like the Liberation Theology theory of Justice (which they usually call Social Justice, I guess to distinguish it from Vengeance Justice?)  So if someone has their basic human rights and necessities taken, you obviously can't go back in time and prevent that from happening.  But you can still attempt to return human rights and necessities now, and work to prevent similar wrongs from happening again.  So, "righting wrongs" not in the sense of "doing wrong to the wrong-doer" but "doing right to the wronged."

Quote from: GA on November 07, 2009, 11:26:31 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 06, 2009, 11:37:39 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong righted", zero. The essence of a wrong is an immoral action. You can't change the past so you can't possibly make the immoral action into a moral action. Nor will making a moral action somehow balance out the previous immoral action and make everything aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll better. Not to mention that the usual stance of justice as a wrong righted is taking a generally thought to be immoral action and deeming it to be moral when used against a certain entity. This is not more than closure in the form of vengeance.

I mean, its perfectly fine if you want to believe in justice but it shouldn't be made out as something moral or /noble/. Just more monkeys shitting on each other.

Leibniz thought you could.  He explains the Problem of Evil by saying that while there may be evil, God figures out a way to turn it into good with interest.  Note that you still go to hell for your actions, even though they lead to the improvement of the world which is greater than it would be if you had just acted morally in the first place.

On a more serious note, I personally like the Liberation Theology theory of Justice (which they usually call Social Justice, I guess to distinguish it from Vengeance Justice?)  So if someone has their basic human rights and necessities taken, you obviously can't go back in time and prevent that from happening.  But you can still attempt to return human rights and necessities now, and work to prevent similar wrongs from happening again.  So, "righting wrongs" not in the sense of "doing wrong to the wrong-doer" but "doing right to the wronged."

^Awesome answer.

QuoteBut you can still attempt to return human rights and necessities now, and work to prevent similar wrongs from happening again.  So, "righting wrongs" not in the sense of "doing wrong to the wrong-doer" but "doing right to the wronged."

Supremely well put.

Personally I'd prefer to do both, unless the situation was so that I only had one choice, in which case I'd likely default to righting the wrong.

I guess I'm going to hell, then.

In case the gambling, drinking, sex before marriage, promotion of heresy, disbelief, not keeping the Sabbath sacred, not honouring my parents, eating shellfish, wearing clothes of mixed fibers, going near pregnant women, eating pork, lying, consorting with false prophets, disobedience to constituted lawful authority, drug use, revenge, lust, insolence, malice, theft....and so on and so forth haven't already put me there.

Quote from: GA on November 07, 2009, 11:26:31 PM

Quote from: Kai on November 06, 2009, 11:37:39 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "wrong righted", zero. The essence of a wrong is an immoral action. You can't change the past so you can't possibly make the immoral action into a moral action. Nor will making a moral action somehow balance out the previous immoral action and make everything aaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll better. Not to mention that the usual stance of justice as a wrong righted is taking a generally thought to be immoral action and deeming it to be moral when used against a certain entity. This is not more than closure in the form of vengeance.

I mean, its perfectly fine if you want to believe in justice but it shouldn't be made out as something moral or /noble/. Just more monkeys shitting on each other.

Leibniz thought you could.  He explains the Problem of Evil by saying that while there may be evil, God figures out a way to turn it into good with interest.  Note that you still go to hell for your actions, even though they lead to the improvement of the world which is greater than it would be if you had just acted morally in the first place.

That sounds like a more extreme formulation of the Doctrine of Double Effect (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/double-effect/):

QuoteThe doctrine (or principle) of double effect is often invoked to explain the permissibility of an action that causes a serious harm, such as the death of a human being, as a side effect of promoting some good end. It is claimed that sometimes it is permissible to cause such a harm as a side effect (or "double effect") of bringing about a good result even though it would not be permissible to cause such a harm as a means to bringing about the same good end. This reasoning is summarized with the claim that sometimes it is permissible to bring about as a merely foreseen side effect a harmful event that it would be impermissible to bring about intentionally.

Some people are really twisted.  :/

I'm a little out of it from my accidental 20/6 sleep schedule I've been following this week (and it's bedtime according), so forgive me if I just sound stupid. :x

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
This realization came upon only a couple minutes ago after I had a run in with one of my friends. Now this friend is one of the folks at my school who gets picked on continually. It's gone on as long as I've known him. I've always backed him up, always made sure that it never got physical, but not letting him rely on me for rescue. So, I'm just walking around and I see this kid, Mikey. Mikey is another friend of mine, and he gets it even worse than my first friend. He's overweight, intelligent, and quiet, the small town triumvirate of victimization. And as usual, I find Mikey being followed by some asshole, who's getting his hard on by messing with the poor kid. And lo and behold it's my first friend, Jake. Jake who's been a victim his entire life, is turning around and doing to this other kid.

I lost it. I've been betrayed by friends, tricked by people who claimed to like me, all kinds of shit, but nothing has ever infuriated me like watching Jake torment poor Mikey. My hands shook, my face went red, and I tear Jake a new one. I scare the living shit out of him. He goes white and when I finally let the little bastard go, he runs.

Well, nobody's perfect... so let's throw this to his point of view. It'd be safe to assume he has at least a bit of frustration towards humanity because of all of this, and 'lo and behold your friend becomes a vent of his frustration because, you know, nobody's perfect. Now he's a bully for the same reason as any bully -- but a neophyte at the whole experience, unable to reflect at his loss of ethical control, unlike the schoolyard bully whom has accepted his own ways. What he's doing isn't right, no duh, but I'd bet that wrist slap sure woke him up.

People have to be selfish to an extent to take care of themselves, and that's why people will always (some less often than others yet still everyone) slip up to some injustice. No reason to lose faith in it. Some people are a lost cause, but fuck 'em. Teach justice to those that will listen. At times, a punch in the offender's face may be your only audio.

Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on November 05, 2009, 09:48:19 PMNow, I understand. Justice is gone. The Lady is curled up in a dark corner, crying out of sightless eyes. She bleeds from her palms, and she screams out at the world "What have you done?". We don't here her though. We're too busy drowning ourselves in pools of our own vomit and excrement, our only pleasure being the mindless cruelties we inflict on each other. Sure, we have courts and anti-bullying seminars and all the garbage that authority throws at us. But it's all just a blindfold, one making us as blind as Lady Justice.

The Lady Justice, that blindfolded bitch. She sold her scales to bureaucrats to count our their bribes. She gave her sword to the abusers so that they wouldn't hurt her. And she gave us her blindfold so we couldn't see what she had done.

The victim becoming the abuser is just a catalyst for me. It led me to an epiphany. We can't rely on Lady Justice to save us, or to even point us in the right direction. She's blind for Christ's sake! No. Justice is a dead memory. But there's Vengeance. It's not pretty and it's never fair, but at least it does something. When the greater good has sold its soul, we have to turn to the lesser evil.

Justice is gone. Time for Vengeance.

This further pushes the point I'm trying to make. It's selfish to think anybody is tallying what you do that's good or bad, like there's a karma system tallying up your actions in everybody's mind. People don't care what you do, only who you are. Also, this street justice has nothing to do with any icons of justice or injustice; on the larger scale, there will never be a right way since good and bad are individually subjective. And power will always corrupt: the massive incentives and demons pulling which way within that power have no context within your situation of morality. Besides, as a society, we have come a long, long way. We shit bricks over war and corrupt enforcers and the like, but in the past genocide, religious war, violent superstition, slavery, and violence in general was much more rampant than it is now. In fact, I'd say justice is doing great.

Don't let this event limit your will towards justice to only vengeance. Justice is more often fixed in negotiation than vengeance. And besides, if you set out to become some Dark Knight or whatever, you will inevitably just become an embodiment of injustice to someone else.

QuoteDon't let this event limit your will towards justice to only vengeance. Justice is more often fixed in negotiation than vengeance. And besides, if you set out to become some Dark Knight or whatever, you will inevitably just become an embodiment of injustice to someone else.

I've always wanted to be a super-hero...ha.