I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about incorporating it more into my act and turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
For those of you who are interested in psychic "phenomena" and cold reading and such, may I recommend reading Psychic for a Day:How I Learned Tarot Cards, Palm Reading, Astrology, and Mediumship in 24 Hours (http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/psychic2.html)
It tells the story of a man who, though familiar with cold reading, had never tried it himself, managed to pretty much overnight become a "successful" psychic through cold reading techniques.
There is also this Become a psychic in 10 easy lessons (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skeptic.com%2Fdownloads%2F10_Easy_Psychic_Lessons.pdf&ei=GeNsS4HOJY3o7APGxMyHBg&usg=AFQjCNE8uI4wvHFYTgc_5dxKyMAPXZdeEA&sig2=fmd3MBn7QMEzRub4RZQe-Q)
While these are a great start to becoming a successful cold reader, for those who want something a *little* more in depth, then I'm offering FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY ONE OF THE BEST BOOKS ON COLD READING EVER RED HOT COLD READING (http://ifile.it/4nr7vhl), BUT HURRY, OFFER ONLY AVAILABLE TO FIRST 10 DOWNLOADERS otherwise I'll have to re-upload it again. Fixed unlimited downloads for all to enjoy.
Enjoy.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Thanks for the links - disseminating info is awesome. Being part of the problem by making people buy into bullshit, literally - not so awesome.
What the heck is up with the introduction to "red hot cold reading", Lys? Do I have to be on guard all the way through the book?
QuoteDear Reader,
This book is written for a specific audience, YOU. It is not for the general public. We are
aware of your basic knowledge of some aspects of psychic readings, and will try to be
sufficiently basic or general to aid you in understanding certain principles, realizing that you are
not a specialist versed in psychology and related academic disciplines.
We feel that you are a person of mature judgment. a person interested in other people.
You are a people watcher, a perceptive and observant individual. You avoid physical violence,
you are not a physically aggressive person. You would not intentionally harm another, and. in
fact- would like to be of assistance to others. You enjoy entertaining other people. You enjoy
being in the spotlight, and are at times a bit of a ham. Although you enjoy dazzling or mystifying
others, you can be open and direct about what you are doing when it is appropriate. You have
good stage presence, and have an interest in hypnotism.
You have always had an attraction to others and, though enjoying a sense of personal
power, have a desire for fairness in your dealings with others. You have a dry sense of humor.
and your sense of humor is enjoyed by those around you. Your dedication or diligence in
developing your skills and abilities is also an admirable trait. You have a certain duality of being,
which is expressed partly in your performing and public self which is quite different from your
private self. You are able to see things in people, and this is an asset in entertainment as well as
in other aspects of your life, it is also what makes you a very capable teacher when you are so
inclined. Your thirst for knowledge has made you, if not an avid reader, certainly a well-versed
person.
Your above-average intelligence has enabled you to grasp things well, but has also at
times been the cause of frustration when you were attempting to explain things to others who are
not as capable as yourself. You tend to forget that you are in the upper ranges of the population,
and that you are more capable of seeing both the subjective and the objective aspects of things.
Whereas many people can't see the forest for the trees, you are very resourceful and
balanced as an individual. In fact, the number two seems to be significant- You would tend to
have two cars rather than one, two loves in your life. With respect to children, again the number
two seems to be relevant, you would have two career options or opportunities rather than just
one. This book will be of value to you in achieving some of the things you are seeking and added
to your ability to read people, can produce very powerful results.
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Thanks for the links - disseminating info is awesome. Being part of the problem by making people buy into bullshit, literally - not so awesome.
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much "psychic ability" and not enough "brains", who are profiting and exploiting the first lot.
The problem is, why are idiots giving idiots money when I could be doing everyone a service by taking their money, giving them the same, if not better results then pretty much all "real" psychics, and at the same time show that all other supposed "real" psychics are just as phony as me.
I figure, if they're going to just throw away money *anyway*, I might as well be one of the people taking it.
Also, I'm ethical. If at any point ask me if I'm a real psychic or if any of this stuff is real, I'll tell them the truth.
What I provide is an "entertainment service", with a dash of counseling if need be.
If anything starts getting "too real" for them, I'll also let them know I'm conning them.
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 04:44:30 AM
What the heck is up with the introduction to "red hot cold reading", Lys? Do I have to be on guard all the way through the book?
QuoteDear Reader,
This book is written for a specific audience, YOU. It is not for the general public. We are
aware of your basic knowledge of some aspects of psychic readings, and will try to be
sufficiently basic or general to aid you in understanding certain principles, realizing that you are
not a specialist versed in psychology and related academic disciplines.
We feel that you are a person of mature judgment. a person interested in other people.
You are a people watcher, a perceptive and observant individual. You avoid physical violence,
you are not a physically aggressive person. You would not intentionally harm another, and. in
fact- would like to be of assistance to others. You enjoy entertaining other people. You enjoy
being in the spotlight, and are at times a bit of a ham. Although you enjoy dazzling or mystifying
others, you can be open and direct about what you are doing when it is appropriate. You have
good stage presence, and have an interest in hypnotism.
You have always had an attraction to others and, though enjoying a sense of personal
power, have a desire for fairness in your dealings with others. You have a dry sense of humor.
and your sense of humor is enjoyed by those around you. Your dedication or diligence in
developing your skills and abilities is also an admirable trait. You have a certain duality of being,
which is expressed partly in your performing and public self which is quite different from your
private self. You are able to see things in people, and this is an asset in entertainment as well as
in other aspects of your life, it is also what makes you a very capable teacher when you are so
inclined. Your thirst for knowledge has made you, if not an avid reader, certainly a well-versed
person.
Your above-average intelligence has enabled you to grasp things well, but has also at
times been the cause of frustration when you were attempting to explain things to others who are
not as capable as yourself. You tend to forget that you are in the upper ranges of the population,
and that you are more capable of seeing both the subjective and the objective aspects of things.
Whereas many people can't see the forest for the trees, you are very resourceful and
balanced as an individual. In fact, the number two seems to be significant- You would tend to
have two cars rather than one, two loves in your life. With respect to children, again the number
two seems to be relevant, you would have two career options or opportunities rather than just
one. This book will be of value to you in achieving some of the things you are seeking and added
to your ability to read people, can produce very powerful results.
Yes.
This book can read your mind.
Be careful with that deep, dark secret you have.
How did you know about that? :argh!:
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
It's not really meant as a criticism - overall I think the difference made by another "psychic" earning a living is tiny - but I don't think you can truthfully say that you wouldn't be a part of the problem. Am I being too pedantic?
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Do you
really believe that?
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 06, 2010, 05:07:50 AM
As a future psych, publicists are my declared nemesis.
That wont stop me from reading their literature - without power (in this case, knowledge) you cannot affect in neither positive or negative manners.
And by Lucifer! In this cruel era im not so squeamish about having tools for survival. Who knows! If things keep going the way they are, you might see me in the ranks of publicists some day.
(I know we are talking about psychics, but to me it relates to the category of the "psychological battlegrounds")
That's pretty much why I'm reading, too.
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 05:16:27 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
It's not really meant as a criticism - overall I think the difference made by another "psychic" earning a living is tiny - but I don't think you can truthfully say that you wouldn't be a part of the problem. Am I being too pedantic?
First:Consider Enrico and the parable of the sacred bull.
Second:I'm a mentalist. I do magic tricks and pretend to have a higher intuition. I am merely acting, an actor playing the part of a mentalist, for entertainment purposes.
What the people choose to believe is up to them.
Do I have to give away every trick that I do to the audience so that I'm not encouraging their superstitious delusions?
Wouldn't it be enough to be an "Honest Liar"?
Like I said, if people ask, I will admit to them its all in their heads, as far as I'm concerned that's part of the learning process.
I've talked to lots of new-agey types, and have tried to explain to them that psychics are frauds, and they refused to believe me, even after explaining and showing them exactly how it works.
The problem is, they build up a resistance and their reality tunnel does not sync with the one of what they believe are "Real psychics".
They will always have excuses that let them grip onto that reality tunnel.
You have to understand, there *is* a difference between what I'm doing and what they are doing.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Quote
Do you really believe that?
I believe it's an *option*.
There are many ways to skin a system.
BTW, I made this ad on craigslist for people to "practice" on.
http://melbourne.craigslist.com.au/crs/1588284619.html
The plan is, I'll do the reading, and then when I get their feedback, let them know it was all a trick and hopefully shock them into realizing what a load of bullshit it all is.
That's an awesome idea!
Also, heres a psychick I cooked earlier... waaaay, waaay, earlier.
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12137.0
Not my best troll, but I had fun with it and I know what my competition is like now :P
I think explaining it in non-spiritual terms is a good idea. I think you can still convey the same authority of your statements and judgements without having to rely on the supernatural for them, though I have to admit it can be a very good hook to get people interested to start off with.
I may have a collection of articles and books on cold reading somewhere, though its on my external HD. Lys, if you want a more useful and long-lasting host for material, I suggest using mihd.net (you can still delete the files when you want, but there are no limits on downloads, so there is a lot more control).
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AMOFFER ONLY AVAILABLE TO FIRST 10 DOWNLOADERS otherwise I'll have to re-upload it again.
:aww:
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 06, 2010, 04:36:41 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AMOFFER ONLY AVAILABLE TO FIRST 10 DOWNLOADERS otherwise I'll have to re-upload it again.
:aww:
Offer expired eh zip?
http://ifile.it/4nr7vhl
There ya go.
I had been wanting for a book on cold reading. THANKS LYS! Much appreciated!
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 05:16:27 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
It's not really meant as a criticism - overall I think the difference made by another "psychic" earning a living is tiny - but I don't think you can truthfully say that you wouldn't be a part of the problem. Am I being too pedantic?
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Do you really believe that?
no, you're just being a twat. The world isn't going to run out of superstitious idiots anytime soon, and some streetcorner psychic is not going to convince a superstitious idiot that he his, in fact, a superstitious idiot. All that will accomplish is to drive the idiot in teh direction of anyone who will reinforce his idiocy. That Lys chooses to make a little loot and have a little fun at the expense of superstitious idiots is nothing but laudable.
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Thanks for the links - disseminating info is awesome. Being part of the problem by making people buy into bullshit, literally - not so awesome.
"It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
- Canada Bill Jones.
FP, we don't owe the humans shit, except maybe a good fleecing.
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 05:16:27 AM
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
I fail to see a problem, here.
Cue the Parable of the Golden Bull.
Quote from: LMNO on February 09, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Cue the Parable of the Golden Bull.
We need Enrico back. This is HIS decade.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 09, 2010, 04:30:35 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 09, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
Cue the Parable of the Golden Bull.
We need Enrico back. This is HIS decade.
We must prepare the sacrificial virgins, and a way to airlift him off the floating pile of garbage out in the Pacific that he calls "home" these days.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on February 09, 2010, 04:20:45 PM
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 05:16:27 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
It's not really meant as a criticism - overall I think the difference made by another "psychic" earning a living is tiny - but I don't think you can truthfully say that you wouldn't be a part of the problem. Am I being too pedantic?
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Do you really believe that?
no, you're just being a twat. The world isn't going to run out of superstitious idiots anytime soon, and some streetcorner psychic is not going to convince a superstitious idiot that he his, in fact, a superstitious idiot. All that will accomplish is to drive the idiot in teh direction of anyone who will reinforce his idiocy. That Lys chooses to make a little loot and have a little fun at the expense of superstitious idiots is nothing but laudable.
Superstitious idiots are a problem, why is it objectionable to point out small but incremental contributions to that problem? I didn't think I was going overboard, sorry Lys, if it came across as an attack.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 09, 2010, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Thanks for the links - disseminating info is awesome. Being part of the problem by making people buy into bullshit, literally - not so awesome.
"It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
- Canada Bill Jones.
FP, we don't owe the humans shit, except maybe a good fleecing.
This wasn't about doing anyone other than myself any favours, rather that I would personally like to live on a planet with fewer superstitious idiots. I think that would be just swell.
Quote from: FP on February 09, 2010, 08:58:28 PM
This wasn't about doing anyone other than myself any favours, rather that I would personally like to live on a planet with fewer superstitious idiots. I think that would be just swell.
Then I would feel bad about fucking with people, and that would be undesirable.
Then quite possibly we have conflicting goals and you may have just uncovered a minor nemesis.
Curses, Doktor Howl - I'm not afraid of you! :argh!:
Quote from: FP on February 09, 2010, 09:14:30 PM
Then quite possibly we have conflicting goals and you may have just uncovered a minor nemesis.
Curses, Doktor Howl - I'm not afraid of you! :argh!:
Nobody is afraid of Doktor Howl.
Quote from: FP on February 09, 2010, 08:58:28 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on February 09, 2010, 04:20:45 PM
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 05:16:27 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
I'm not *part of the problem*, I'm profiting *from* the problem.
The problem is, there are stupid people out there with too much money and not enough sense.
You're not curing people of their superstitious delusions, you're encouraging them. In both cases, your influence radiates outward to everybody else they communicate with - you're simply choosing and justifying an influence which causes more harm than good, but generates a nice personal profit.
It's not really meant as a criticism - overall I think the difference made by another "psychic" earning a living is tiny - but I don't think you can truthfully say that you wouldn't be a part of the problem. Am I being too pedantic?
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:56:11 AM
If you wanna fight a system, take it down from the inside, they say.
Do you really believe that?
no, you're just being a twat. The world isn't going to run out of superstitious idiots anytime soon, and some streetcorner psychic is not going to convince a superstitious idiot that he his, in fact, a superstitious idiot. All that will accomplish is to drive the idiot in teh direction of anyone who will reinforce his idiocy. That Lys chooses to make a little loot and have a little fun at the expense of superstitious idiots is nothing but laudable.
Superstitious idiots are a problem, why is it objectionable to point out small but incremental contributions to that problem? I didn't think I was going overboard, sorry Lys, if it came across as an attack.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 09, 2010, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: FP on February 06, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Thanks for the links - disseminating info is awesome. Being part of the problem by making people buy into bullshit, literally - not so awesome.
"It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."
- Canada Bill Jones.
FP, we don't owe the humans shit, except maybe a good fleecing.
This wasn't about doing anyone other than myself any favours, rather that I would personally like to live on a planet with fewer superstitious idiots. I think that would be just swell.
you seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that there is ANYTHING that could stop these monkeys from being superstitious idiots.
Given that nothing will change their behavior, we might as well profit from it.
I'm genre savvy enough to not argue the point.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 06, 2010, 06:29:02 AM
Im not in the mood right now to read.
But i predict the technique it expresses is about giving out make-feel-good transference, making ambiguous but "profound" remarks and about absorbing all the information the person gives you, and "processing it" into "intelligent guessing".
I figure that lonely-avoidant-neurotic people call these services; most just need a pat in the back or someone that will listen to them, im almost sure that they wouldnt call you on a "bad reading" either way...
Did you know that the voice of a person, has a lot of information?
(Example: little girl's voice on any woman over 17, it makes the hair on my neck stand up (which i have none, but you know what i mean))
My friend, who I will for the sake of conversation call Carolina, has a little-girl voice, but that is simply because of the length of her vocal cords. You know that most people don't have any control over that, right? She's a drama major, and has done significant voice modulation training, but her natural speaking range sounds more like that of a little girl than my 12-year-old does.
I have a fairly deep voice for a woman. I didn't do anything to make it that way.
In response to the topic of this thread, I am far more in favor of making money selling useless things to rich people. They don't need the money anyway, and I do. Making money by misleading the hopeful ignorant is more than a bit unpalatable to me. Making money from the genuinely stupid, even more so.
This. Monkeys are the new sheep.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 12:11:15 AM
In response to the topic of this thread, I am far more in favor of making money selling useless things to rich people. They don't need the money anyway, and I do. Making money by misleading the hopeful ignorant is more than a bit unpalatable to me. Making money from the genuinely stupid, even more so.
If you DON'T take it, they'll just pay their taxes and the money will be spent on the CIA.
Doktor Howl: Making moral conundrums so you don't have to.
If I pay money to see a film, or to eat a meal, or drink a drink, then I'm not always being sold a lie.
Sure, the film may try to blair witch me into thinking it's based upon a true story, or the meal may be loaded with salt and market itself on having fewer calories, and the drink may associate itself with wit and charm rather than projectile vomit in a nightclub stall. But those rotten apples say nothing about the orchard - there are brands within each of those industries which are upfront about what they are selling, and plenty more which lie between those points on the spectrum. The experienced consumer can usually discern between the choices on offer.
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
I can't speak for anyone else in the industry, but the single biggest reason I work as a chef is because I truly enjoy cooking good food (I'd pay to do it for myself at home if it wasn't my job) and, more importantly, I get off on seeing the look on someone's face not when they taste something they've never tasted before, but when they taste something they've had a hundred times before and realize that "holy shit, I never knew this could be THIS good!"
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 06:38:49 AM
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
How exactly does "perpetuating lies" lower the average intelligence of our species?
And define "lie" first so we're on the same page.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 06:54:01 AM
Sorry FP but the very act of selling anything, involves lying through ones clenched weasel face.
I disagree - although it does seem a characteristic often found in the mass-market, I've come across plenty of smaller business selling goods or services at a fair price for quality, without the need for misrepresentation.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 06:54:01 AM
I'm stealing it to troll with :D
:lulz:
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 10, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
And define "lie" first so we're on the same page.
Well, I'll go with an example from "Red hot cold reading" (limited download availability ITT!), where the student
scammer psychic is advised to cover up a wrong guess by blaming either "bad spiritual connections", or by declaring that the mark isn't trying hard enough. So even if the average person is possibly smart enough to work out that they are being lied to, never fear, because much effort has been put into coaching the psychic into using their position of authority to make that person doubt themselves instead.
Nice.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 10, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 06:38:49 AM
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
How exactly does "perpetuating lies" lower the average intelligence of our species?
In the specific instance of the psychic industry, it is peddling fairy tales rather than education. It is encouraging a belief in magical thinking, you know - the sort where everybody ends up believing that God/the universe/gaia/Simon Cowell favours them uniquely ahead of the rest of the pack. The easy-fix mentality which kept Billy Mays bathed in cocaine and hookers, $19.95* sized chunks at a time.
You can call it a placebo, which helps and comforts desperate people in times of need, I call it a poison.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 12:11:15 AM
In response to the topic of this thread, I am far more in favor of making money selling useless things to rich people. They don't need the money anyway, and I do. Making money by misleading the hopeful ignorant is more than a bit unpalatable to me. Making money from the genuinely stupid, even more so.
What about people who are both rich AND stupid?
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 05:16:28 AM
:lulz:
So. to recap:
anyone who works in the entertainment sector*, is making money from "stupid people" by "misleading the hopeful ignorant" ? also, I guess this apply to people who work in the service sector (stop making money from stupid fat people), the bar industry (stop making money from stupid drunks), the car industry (stop making money from stupid people who need new yearly cars) and, well.
Shit. anything where someone parts with their moneys.
No, it's the part about "telling stupid people what they want to hear". Entertainment is fine, and entertaining; like cars or alcohol it's a product people choose to buy, but making money by actually leading people on to believe that you are communicating with their dead relatives, foretelling their future, or arming them with information to fix a broken relationship is just plain shystering, and it's unethical IMO.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 03:23:39 PM
I think you are mistaking a book on Cold Reading, a known con technique, as used by carnies, deren brown and bill clinton, for Standard Issue This Is How You Be A Psychic stuff. Cold reading is cold reading. its a con. much in the same way that playing find the lady is not playing proper cards. you with me on this?
You're right - my hackles were raised by the cynical use of psychology in that book to ensure doubtful marks don't escape the hook - so it's a stretch to extend that to the rest of the industry. In my defense, I didn't know that there was any other mindset in the industry. But since ignorance is a poor defense, I'll shut up now!
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 07:05:39 PM
No, it's the part about "telling stupid people what they want to hear".
Historically speaking, they'll kill you if you tell them anything else.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 05:16:28 AM
:lulz:
So. to recap:
anyone who works in the entertainment sector*, is making money from "stupid people" by "misleading the hopeful ignorant" ? also, I guess this apply to people who work in the service sector (stop making money from stupid fat people), the bar industry (stop making money from stupid drunks), the car industry (stop making money from stupid people who need new yearly cars) and, well.
Shit. anything where someone parts with their moneys.
No, it's the part about "telling stupid people what they want to hear". Entertainment is fine, and entertaining; like cars or alcohol it's a product people choose to buy, but making money by actually leading people on to believe that you are communicating with their dead relatives, foretelling their future, or arming them with information to fix a broken relationship is just plain shystering, and it's unethical IMO.
Unfortunately Nigel, and this is strictly from my POV, if people want to throw money at me so I can give them a little peace of mind when I can't fend for myself and my child becuse I can't find a job, that is fine by me.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 07:05:39 PMbut making money by actually leading people on to believe that you are communicating with their dead relatives, foretelling their future, or arming them with information to fix a broken relationship is just plain shystering, and it's unethical IMO.
Just reiterating the actual part I have a problem with.
Freeky, as a mom, I would lie, cheat steal, and sell my body if that's what it took to keep my kids fed and housed. But I'd do those things after other possibilities had been exhausted.
That's what I meant by peace of mind, the bits you have a problem with. Except for giving them relationship advice.
Nobody wants to hire someone untrained and inexperienced here, and I don't know how to lie well enough for it to be believable, hirable, and I can still DO it. :sad:
People who go to "psychics" WANT to believe. They aren't paying to know their future, etc, they're paying to be reassured that there is a higher power or guiding force in the universe. Most importantly, they're paying to be told that the wreckage of their lives isn't their fault.
They are going to believe all these things anyway, there's no essential difference between getting paid for cold reading and getting paid for, say, being a pet psychologist.
You can't con people that WANT to be conned, know what I mean?
In my experience with these things, offering strangers readings for free: People don't want advice, not even the kind they want to hear. People want to be heard. They want to talk your ear off, giving you plenty of material even if cold reading is not your attention. They want someone to say, uh-huh, okay, yeah sure, and mostly keep your clap shut.
Sometimes they have problems that need expert help and you can show them the way to get that help.
That said, I never had the stomach for a career with this shit.
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 10, 2010, 08:38:59 PM
Quoteforetelling their future, or arming them with information to fix a broken relationship
even if you are right about most things and the information you give helps fix it? guess I'm unethical then.
& how, how may you ask: How do I sleep at night?
ON A BED OF FUCKING MONEY! :D that's how. :lol:
Moral high-ground. Brilliantly uncrackable.
I'm not talking about actual advice; I'm talking about "psychic" advice that doesn't actually have any bearing on the situation.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 10, 2010, 10:50:03 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 12:07:45 AM
My friend, who I will for the sake of conversation call Carolina, has a little-girl voice, but that is simply because of the length of her vocal cords. You know that most people don't have any control over that, right? She's a drama major, and has done significant voice modulation training, but her natural speaking range sounds more like that of a little girl than my 12-year-old does.
I have a fairly deep voice for a woman. I didn't do anything to make it that way.
Some smaller-than-average people have natural squeaky voices. And sure theres some cases where biologically its how they turned out.
And its exactly because people dont have any control over their voices that i can take it as an extra bit of information i can read on them.
I havent observed if deep voices mean anything so far.
Speaking out of the context of this thread: you can get much information just from watching clothing and accesories choices, hairstyle, piercings, voice tone, posture, gait, body movements, facial hair.
But how does the pitch of someone's voice tell you anything about them other than what the pitch of their voice is?
I'm tiny, BTW, and Carolina is quite tall and built like a German farmgirl. Overall physical size is only marginally related to the length of one's vocal cords, which is the main determining factor in vocal frequency.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 11, 2010, 12:02:29 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 10, 2010, 11:43:54 PM
But how does the pitch of someone's voice tell you anything about them other than what the pitch of their voice is?
I'm tiny, BTW, and Carolina is quite tall and built like a German farmgirl. Overall physical size is only marginally related to the length of one's vocal cords, which is the main determining factor in vocal frequency.
It can mean arrested development.
Do you really see no correlation at all between voice and character/personality?
Intonation, sure, but not frequency. Some people speak in a forced high voice, but that's entirely different from having extra-short vocal cords, which is what gives you a higher-pitched voice. Carolina's vocal cords are very short, hence she still has the vocal frequency of a girl of around 12, while I and all three of my children have longer vocal cords. My son and younger daughter have had unusually deep voices for their age their whole lives... and they're very different in personality. One of my friend's sons is 14 and has a higher speaking voice than my oldest daughter, who is 12.
I think that you might be confusing behavior with physiology; a woman who talks like a little girl is different from a woman who has the voice of a little girl.
:)
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Lysergic:
MY CRYSTAL BALLS SAY THAT EVEN DO YOU AIM TO RIP PEOPLE OFF OF THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY THAT COULD GO TO THEIR CHILDREN (BY ERIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) THAT DEEP DOWN YOU ARE JUST RESENTED AND HAVE A REPRESSED LOVE FOR YOUR MOM AND WANT TO KILL YOUR FATHER, ALSO THAT YOU HAVE A LATENT HOMOSEXUALITY THAT IS EVIDENCED THRU YOUR REJECTAL OF A BED FULL OF GREEN MONEYS AND NAKED BELLA (AND BY ERIS! WHAT IS HOTTER THAN A GIRL WITH THE SAME NAME AS THE MISTRESS OF A SPARKLY VAMPIRE!)
THIS ALL SHALL PASS WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON WHEN YOU RUN BY CHANCE INTO AN OLD FRIEND YOU HAVENT SEEN IN A LOT OF YEARS AND HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH WITH YOUR DREAMS, BUT YOUR DREAMS CAN ONLY STAY ALIVE THRU HOPE, BECAUSE IF YOU DONT HAVE DREAMS AND YOU DONT HAVE HOPES, YOU DONT HAVE HAPPINESS, AND IF YOU DONT HAVE HAPPINESS, LIFE POSES NO MEANING, AND IF THERES NO MEANING TO YOUR DREAMS THEN YOU WILL NEVER HAVE HOPE!!!
I VISUALIZE YOUR LUCKY NUMBERS THIS WEEK ARE 69-11-7-666
Now pay me, fucker.
-JohNyx,
doesnt make psychic readings,
but for sure makes pseudo-psychological ones.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 11, 2010, 05:32:11 AM
Lysergic:
MY CRYSTAL BALLS SAY THAT EVEN DO YOU AIM TO RIP PEOPLE OFF OF THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY THAT COULD GO TO THEIR CHILDREN (BY ERIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) THAT DEEP DOWN YOU ARE JUST RESENTED AND HAVE A REPRESSED LOVE FOR YOUR MOM AND WANT TO KILL YOUR FATHER, ALSO THAT YOU HAVE A LATENT HOMOSEXUALITY THAT IS EVIDENCED THRU YOUR REJECTAL OF A BED FULL OF GREEN MONEYS AND NAKED BELLA (AND BY ERIS! WHAT IS HOTTER THAN A GIRL WITH THE SAME NAME AS THE MISTRESS OF A SPARKLY VAMPIRE!)
THIS ALL SHALL PASS WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON WHEN YOU RUN BY CHANCE INTO AN OLD FRIEND YOU HAVENT SEEN IN A LOT OF YEARS AND HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH WITH YOUR DREAMS, BUT YOUR DREAMS CAN ONLY STAY ALIVE THRU HOPE, BECAUSE IF YOU DONT HAVE DREAMS AND YOU DONT HAVE HOPES, YOU DONT HAVE HAPPINESS, AND IF YOU DONT HAVE HAPPINESS, LIFE POSES NO MEANING, AND IF THERES NO MEANING TO YOUR DREAMS THEN YOU WILL NEVER HAVE HOPE!!!
I VISUALIZE YOUR LUCKY NUMBERS THIS WEEK ARE 69-11-7-666
Now pay me, fucker.
-JohNyx,
doesnt make psychic readings,
but for sure makes pseudo-psychological ones.
OMG GET OUT OF MY HEAD :argh!:
:lulz:
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 11, 2010, 08:18:43 AM
lol cat I seewhatudidthar.
I'm stating, once more for the record that your confusing psychic with fortune teller, and cold reading with actual telling.
aaanyways :lol: this should be funny. All I'm saying is Scottish play Act 1. Scene V. enjoy.
Most people do confuse all those things too.
I realize there is a difference, and I still stand by what I said.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 11, 2010, 08:32:31 AM
ps to note edit.
Edit noted, still standing by what I've said.
Reading tarot cards is no different from cold reading, it's just a different way of doing it.
Actually, I do have one thing to change about what I've just said- include 'Speaking as a magician/mentalist'.
Sometimes I do wonder if there is such a thing as real ESP/psychics, but I haven't met anyone ever who's convinced me of this.
Also, Amazing Randi's million dollar challenge. Still waiting for *anyone* to claim that million.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 11, 2010, 08:52:01 AM
Lys: does saying to Randi "Hey Randi, dude, I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not going to give me this million, as I predicted it with my powers" net you a million or does Randi's head assplode?
:lulz:
Dunno man, but I wanna try it now and see.
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 10, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 06:38:49 AM
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
How exactly does "perpetuating lies" lower the average intelligence of our species?
In the specific instance of the psychic industry, it is peddling fairy tales rather than education. It is encouraging a belief in magical thinking, you know - the sort where everybody ends up believing that God/the universe/gaia/Simon Cowell favours them uniquely ahead of the rest of the pack. The easy-fix mentality which kept Billy Mays bathed in cocaine and hookers, $19.95* sized chunks at a time.
You can call it a placebo, which helps and comforts desperate people in times of need, I call it a poison.
Yes, it's absolutely brutal and unethical to utilize a person's life long worldview (that they never will change) in order to profit and provide them comfort.
There's no ethical problem with placebos unless it is administered as a cure, or otherwise prevents people from seeking medical help for a serious medical issue. I highly doubt that people call psychics for any sort of medical advice.
You also have offered no evidence about how simply telling a person a lie lowers everyone's intelligence. In fact, I'd say your claim is a lie and that instead of lowering people's intelligence you are provoking the truth to smack you in the face, for all to see.
I can cite several studies that demonstrate telling lies, can actually
measurably raise people's performance on tests of intelligence.
Placebos, by definition, cause actual beneficial effects. You calling that poison merely demonstrates just how much you're talking out of your ass.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 08:37:15 AM
Also, Amazing Randi's million dollar challenge. Still waiting for *anyone* to claim that million.
Try the other one (http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge)
Quote from: Enki v. 2.0 on February 11, 2010, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 08:37:15 AM
Also, Amazing Randi's million dollar challenge. Still waiting for *anyone* to claim that million.
Try the other one (http://dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge)
Yeah, nice try, but no, no. That site seems to be full of shit.
It's a site with lots of paranormal themes, of course they're going to bitch about him.
I mean, my god, they're taking jabs at his *sexual prowness*. Grow the fuck up.
Randi has many shows where he gets people with supposed psychic powers to do their thing, and he always shows they are full of shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOsCnX-TKIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cS6DjeBz7g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7yDLRib5CQ&feature=related "My whole idea of why I did this in the first place was to see how dumb the world was, er how dumb the world is."- Supposed psychic in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD163h4mKQA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP5_4x8eBXI&feature=related
There's a million videos of Randi Debunking people with claims of psychic ability.
But hey, you know what, I really don't care.
Believe what you want to believe, if you really want to waste your money on people who claim psychic ability, go ahead.
I'll be one of those people waiting to take your cash.
That's not the point. Just because Randi also shows how psychics are full of shit, doesn't mean his "Million Dollar Challenge" is not full of shit as well.
Or like Derren Brown, just because he can also do some really awesome mentalist tricks, doesn't mean that his lotto trick was a huge disappointment ...
Don't forget to kill your idols, Lys.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 02:29:58 PM
It's a site with lots of paranormal themes, of course they're going to bitch about him.
Pet peeve here. The site is about forteana, so they kind of need to touch upon it. Fortean types can be split into two categories: the sane and the nuts. The nuts are typically nuttier than the nuts in any other group, and the sane ones are typically saner than the sane members of any other group. I wouldn't have referenced it had I not considered this one of the sane ones -- referencing the nuts can be counterproductive (http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3016).
Randi is full of shit for the same reason that the Brights and Dawkins are full of shit... they BELIEVE that they KNOW something. Their Dogma is as paralyzing to their thinking as Pat Robertsons is... just in a different direction. It's pseudo-skepticism at its finest. Randi and Dawkins both have exposed themselves as people who are out to DISPROVE rather than people who are out looking for information. Their BiP is full of NO, CAN'T and IMPOSSIBLE; Solider, Solider Solider and not one hunchback among them.
Doesn't Randi have an unsavoury rep amongst most serious skeptics anyway? I'm pretty sure someone here, like Iason, mentioned that once.
That said, here (http://www.ocregister.com/news/nelson-233700-smith-fortune.html) is a good reason not to pretend you have psychic powers.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 11, 2010, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 10, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 06:38:49 AM
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
How exactly does "perpetuating lies" lower the average intelligence of our species?
In the specific instance of the psychic industry, it is peddling fairy tales rather than education. It is encouraging a belief in magical thinking, you know - the sort where everybody ends up believing that God/the universe/gaia/Simon Cowell favours them uniquely ahead of the rest of the pack. The easy-fix mentality which kept Billy Mays bathed in cocaine and hookers, $19.95* sized chunks at a time.
You can call it a placebo, which helps and comforts desperate people in times of need, I call it a poison.
Yes, it's absolutely brutal and unethical to utilize a person's life long worldview (that they never will change) in order to profit and provide them comfort.
There's no ethical problem with placebos unless it is administered as a cure, or otherwise prevents people from seeking medical help for a serious medical issue. I highly doubt that people call psychics for any sort of medical advice.
You also have offered no evidence about how simply telling a person a lie lowers everyone's intelligence. In fact, I'd say your claim is a lie and that instead of lowering people's intelligence you are provoking the truth to smack you in the face, for all to see.
I can cite several studies that demonstrate telling lies, can actually measurably raise people's performance on tests of intelligence.
Placebos, by definition, cause actual beneficial effects. You calling that poison merely demonstrates just how much you're talking out of your ass.
:| Thanks for dragging me back into this after I bowed out and attempted to retract my inflammatory statements. I appreciate that. No, really.
Do you see the difference between:
"perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species"
AND
"perpetuating lies, which lowers the average intelligence of our species"
?
I said the former, you seem to be reading the latter. If you are still feeling grammatically challenged, then let me be explicit - I was talking about an unethical shyster who strings along a mark using techniques such as those in "red hot cold reading" using psychological techniques designed to prevent the mark from seeing through the mistakes/incorrect guesses - one co-author is a Psychology Prof and makes no bones of the utility of applying his knowledge in this regard.
But by trying to ensure that the mark doesn't use their own mind to see through those lies being sold to them, I do believe that this can have a negative impact on the intelligence of that individual. And both directly and indirectly, other people who are subsequently influenced by that individual - it is itself a tool of rhetoric, but mathematically accurate, that this would have the effect of lowering the average intelligence of our species,
by an infinitesimal amount, each time it happens.
However, I was wrong to apply that con-artist label to the entire psychic industry - I was having fun with the back and forth, and in my ignorance, I over-stretched. Perhaps I should have worn my "Captain Idealist" mask and cape while bellowing "I call it a
poison!!!" over-dramatically from the nearest rooftop? Certainly, I fear, this may have been caused by being too subtle.
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2010, 04:02:09 PM
Doesn't Randi have an unsavoury rep amongst most serious skeptics anyway? I'm pretty sure someone here, like Iason, mentioned that once.
That said, here (http://www.ocregister.com/news/nelson-233700-smith-fortune.html) is a good reason not to pretend you have psychic powers.
Probably the most compelling arguement against it I've seen so far. Then again, if done right, one should be able to afford very large stone walls with a big gate. And/or bodyguards.
Still. That's fucking scary.
Quote from: FP on February 11, 2010, 04:09:12 PM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 11, 2010, 09:31:58 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 11:18:47 AM
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 10, 2010, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: FP on February 10, 2010, 06:38:49 AM
However, there is nothing about the psychic industry which isn't based upon knowingly perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species.
How exactly does "perpetuating lies" lower the average intelligence of our species?
In the specific instance of the psychic industry, it is peddling fairy tales rather than education. It is encouraging a belief in magical thinking, you know - the sort where everybody ends up believing that God/the universe/gaia/Simon Cowell favours them uniquely ahead of the rest of the pack. The easy-fix mentality which kept Billy Mays bathed in cocaine and hookers, $19.95* sized chunks at a time.
You can call it a placebo, which helps and comforts desperate people in times of need, I call it a poison.
Yes, it's absolutely brutal and unethical to utilize a person's life long worldview (that they never will change) in order to profit and provide them comfort.
There's no ethical problem with placebos unless it is administered as a cure, or otherwise prevents people from seeking medical help for a serious medical issue. I highly doubt that people call psychics for any sort of medical advice.
You also have offered no evidence about how simply telling a person a lie lowers everyone's intelligence. In fact, I'd say your claim is a lie and that instead of lowering people's intelligence you are provoking the truth to smack you in the face, for all to see.
I can cite several studies that demonstrate telling lies, can actually measurably raise people's performance on tests of intelligence.
Placebos, by definition, cause actual beneficial effects. You calling that poison merely demonstrates just how much you're talking out of your ass.
:| Thanks for dragging me back into this after I bowed out and attempted to retract my inflammatory statements. I appreciate that. No, really.
Do you see the difference between:
"perpetuating lies which lower the average intelligence of our species"
AND
"perpetuating lies, which lowers the average intelligence of our species"
?
I said the former, you seem to be reading the latter. If you are still feeling grammatically challenged, then let me be explicit - I was talking about an unethical shyster who strings along a mark using techniques such as those in "red hot cold reading" using psychological techniques designed to prevent the mark from seeing through the mistakes/incorrect guesses - one co-author is a Psychology Prof and makes no bones of the utility of applying his knowledge in this regard.
But by trying to ensure that the mark doesn't use their own mind to see through those lies being sold to them, I do believe that this can have a negative impact on the intelligence of that individual. And both directly and indirectly, other people who are subsequently influenced by that individual - it is itself a tool of rhetoric, but mathematically accurate, that this would have the effect of lowering the average intelligence of our species, by an infinitesimal amount, each time it happens.
However, I was wrong to apply that con-artist label to the entire psychic industry - I was having fun with the back and forth, and in my ignorance, I over-stretched. Perhaps I should have worn my "Captain Idealist" mask and cape while bellowing "I call it a poison!!!" over-dramatically from the nearest rooftop? Certainly, I fear, this may have been caused by being too subtle.
So why are you so concerned about the Marks intelligence? I mean if they're so idiotic that they believe in PSYCHIC POWERZ, why not take the opportunity to suck a few coins from them? Are we 'The Good Guys
TM'?
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 11, 2010, 02:58:55 PM
That's not the point. Just because Randi also shows how psychics are full of shit, doesn't mean his "Million Dollar Challenge" is not full of shit as well.
Or like Derren Brown, just because he can also do some really awesome mentalist tricks, doesn't mean that his lotto trick was a huge disappointment ...
Don't forget to kill your idols, Lys.
Yeah, I suppose.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 03:40:44 PM
Randi is full of shit for the same reason that the Brights and Dawkins are full of shit... they BELIEVE that they KNOW something. Their Dogma is as paralyzing to their thinking as Pat Robertsons is... just in a different direction. It's pseudo-skepticism at its finest. Randi and Dawkins both have exposed themselves as people who are out to DISPROVE rather than people who are out looking for information. Their BiP is full of NO, CAN'T and IMPOSSIBLE; Solider, Solider Solider and not one hunchback among them.
Yeah, true.
Still, I have yet to meet a real psychic or see any phenomena I can't explain.
If you can point me to one real psychic, I'll go and find out myself.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 04:36:33 PM
Still, I have yet to meet a real psychic or see any phenomena I can't explain.
Really?
You need to be paying more attention.
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 04:36:33 PM
Still, I have yet to meet a real psychic or see any phenomena I can't explain.
Really?
You need to be paying more attention.
Created by humans.
I think Hannah Montana, and the multi-million (billion?) dollar industry that is marketing for children, does more damage to our collective intelligence than "psychics" ever will. If for no other reason than then people that seek the advice of psychics are ADULTS fully capable of making their own choices
Quote from: FP on February 11, 2010, 04:09:12 PM
But by trying to ensure that the mark doesn't use their own mind to see through those lies being sold to them, I do believe that this can have a negative impact on the intelligence of that individual. And both directly and indirectly, other people who are subsequently influenced by that individual - it is itself a tool of rhetoric, but mathematically accurate, that this would have the effect of lowering the average intelligence of our species, by an infinitesimal amount, each time it happens.
Shouldn't it fundamentally increase the intelligence? A stupid person tries to outwit an ostensibly more intelligent shyster, and they both get some level of mental exercise out of it? It can't be any less stimulating than watching reruns of Cash In The Attic, even if it doesn't match a crossword puzzle.
You raise a good point, and for that, I shall ignore you.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 04:36:33 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 03:40:44 PM
Randi is full of shit for the same reason that the Brights and Dawkins are full of shit... they BELIEVE that they KNOW something. Their Dogma is as paralyzing to their thinking as Pat Robertsons is... just in a different direction. It's pseudo-skepticism at its finest. Randi and Dawkins both have exposed themselves as people who are out to DISPROVE rather than people who are out looking for information. Their BiP is full of NO, CAN'T and IMPOSSIBLE; Solider, Solider Solider and not one hunchback among them.
Yeah, true.
Still, I have yet to meet a real psychic or see any phenomena I can't explain.
If you can point me to one real psychic, I'll go and find out myself.
Ah but that's not the point. There may be no psychic powers at all... there may be no unexplainable phenomena, but its dishonest to claim to be skeptical when working from the negative position, just as it is dishonest to claim to be skeptical while working from the positive position. The skeptic must work from the neutral position.
So rather than saying "Past performance is indicative of future results", the skeptic should say "Show me". Not "I dont believe, show me..." cause the bars of your BiP might get in the way.
So what you're really saying is "Of the people who claimed to be psychic, I have found rational ways to possibly explain their tricks without psychic powers" HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that your explanation is necessarily correct, only that it COULD be correct.
So, let us say Bob is taking a psychic test and during which he has to go to the bathroom. Now, his test results come back very high... and we could say :"Ah, but he could have gotten secret answers on the toilet paper roll, therefore he's a sham!" This is not necessarily true, for although he COULD HAVE, we do not know that he DID... and a skeptic should be skeptical of ALL positions, without hard evidence (like the toilet paper with the answers on it ;-) ).
Personally, I have not met a psychic that ever provided me with an experience that appeared legitimate. However, that is my opinion, I cannot prove that it wasn't. Further, simply because the loud, profiteering punks that claim the term may be full of shit, we do not know that extrasensory phenomena cannot, or do not exist... only that a lot of hairless monkeys are making claims that appear unjustifiable.
Let us, for the sake of argument say that some humans process sensory data far better than others, through body language, pheromones, maybe even electromagnetic fields (we know now that cats appear able to sense some things that way)... if we are evolved and evolving creatures, it seems possible that we may have throwback traits like our animal ancestors (like body language sense and pheromones), or we may have a new trait which makes it easier to sense electromagnetic fields (simply by a genetic fluke). Let us further say that this appears in 1 in 100,000,000 humans. So if 1 in 100,000 claim to be psychic and 1 in 100,000,000 have this supersensory perception... it would be easy to dismiss all claims as fraudulent, when in fact there would be rare (and possibly very interesting) cases that should have further investigation.
Yet, if we approach from the negative, those might be entirely missed. I had some other point, but I forget what it was, so I'ma stop typing now.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/psychic.png)
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 05:03:08 PM
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/psychic.png)
:mittens:
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 04:56:44 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 04:36:33 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 03:40:44 PM
Randi is full of shit for the same reason that the Brights and Dawkins are full of shit... they BELIEVE that they KNOW something. Their Dogma is as paralyzing to their thinking as Pat Robertsons is... just in a different direction. It's pseudo-skepticism at its finest. Randi and Dawkins both have exposed themselves as people who are out to DISPROVE rather than people who are out looking for information. Their BiP is full of NO, CAN'T and IMPOSSIBLE; Solider, Solider Solider and not one hunchback among them.
Yeah, true.
Still, I have yet to meet a real psychic or see any phenomena I can't explain.
If you can point me to one real psychic, I'll go and find out myself.
Ah but that's not the point. There may be no psychic powers at all... there may be no unexplainable phenomena, but its dishonest to claim to be skeptical when working from the negative position, just as it is dishonest to claim to be skeptical while working from the positive position. The skeptic must work from the neutral position.
So rather than saying "Past performance is indicative of future results", the skeptic should say "Show me". Not "I dont believe, show me..." cause the bars of your BiP might get in the way.
So what you're really saying is "Of the people who claimed to be psychic, I have found rational ways to possibly explain their tricks without psychic powers" HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that your explanation is necessarily correct, only that it COULD be correct.
So, let us say Bob is taking a psychic test and during which he has to go to the bathroom. Now, his test results come back very high... and we could say :"Ah, but he could have gotten secret answers on the toilet paper roll, therefore he's a sham!" This is not necessarily true, for although he COULD HAVE, we do not know that he DID... and a skeptic should be skeptical of ALL positions, without hard evidence (like the toilet paper with the answers on it ;-) ).
Personally, I have not met a psychic that ever provided me with an experience that appeared legitimate. However, that is my opinion, I cannot prove that it wasn't. Further, simply because the loud, profiteering punks that claim the term may be full of shit, we do not know that extrasensory phenomena cannot, or do not exist... only that a lot of hairless monkeys are making claims that appear unjustifiable.
Let us, for the sake of argument say that some humans process sensory data far better than others, through body language, pheromones, maybe even electromagnetic fields (we know now that cats appear able to sense some things that way)... if we are evolved and evolving creatures, it seems possible that we may have throwback traits like our animal ancestors (like body language sense and pheromones), or we may have a new trait which makes it easier to sense electromagnetic fields (simply by a genetic fluke). Let us further say that this appears in 1 in 100,000,000 humans. So if 1 in 100,000 claim to be psychic and 1 in 100,000,000 have this supersensory perception... it would be easy to dismiss all claims as fraudulent, when in fact there would be rare (and possibly very interesting) cases that should have further investigation.
Yet, if we approach from the negative, those might be entirely missed. I had some other point, but I forget what it was, so I'ma stop typing now.
I hear what you're saying, and while I don't think you're wrong, I don't think you're right either.
In any case, it doesn't bother me one iota what people believe when it comes to these things.
If they do, it only helps me when it comes to what I do.
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 11, 2010, 08:52:01 AM
QuoteMY CRYSTAL BALLS SAY THAT EVEN DO YOU AIM TO RIP PEOPLE OFF OF THEIR HARD EARNED MONEY THAT COULD GO TO THEIR CHILDREN (BY ERIS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!) THAT DEEP DOWN YOU ARE JUST RESENTED AND HAVE A REPRESSED LOVE FOR YOUR MOM AND WANT TO KILL YOUR FATHER, ALSO THAT YOU HAVE A LATENT HOMOSEXUALITY THAT IS EVIDENCED THRU YOUR REJECTAL OF A BED FULL OF GREEN MONEYS AND NAKED BELLA (AND BY ERIS! WHAT IS HOTTER THAN A GIRL WITH THE SAME NAME AS THE MISTRESS OF A SPARKLY VAMPIRE!)
~~~~~
I missed that the first time round you little cuntflap.
You'd better shut your fucking diseased mouth, get back to fapping off in your dingy third world basement to your unfulfilled dreams, desperate for escaping your dire life through your pointless fantasies of stardom, and get back to the more real issues here, of perhaps going back to my original assessment of you way back all those posts ago, hopefully contracting some sort of lingering slow acting malignant brain cancer, and dying slowly and painfully in face down, alone, in the dirt. with everyone you have ever loved die first.
Now that.
Would be. (!!whoops my "sarcastic amusing italics" fell off!!)
Fucking.
Outlandish.
to recap, I hope you die young, alone and in crippling pain with all your dreams broken like the cracked tiny pieces of old china doll's dashed from an elderly woman's shelf by her doddery hand while dusting the mantle.
Aids would probably do. Or, infact, this is far sweeter, I hope for you to impregnate someone, and give them an aids baby, while you yourself did not know you were infected, and for the mother to find out, and then kill herself, by ripping your unborn son out of her womb and screaming "why jon why did you give me this aids baby"? before cursing you with her last living breath.
I hope all your good kids die during birth man, and only the freak ones with mewling tooth eye sockets and hungry mouth stomachs serve full term, and, shit, your own grandmother has to abort them by drowning them in the town well, and the greif stops that old bitches heart. bam.
Man, I hope you get raped to fucking death by knife wielding gang members, who like to fuck where they cut, and cut where they fuck and they like to cut your fucking eyes and fuck you in the fucking socket, till the last thing you feel is their hot semen entering your brain as you feel shooting pains in your arms and legs as you stroke to death as they orgasm in your fucking tumerous cancer ridden brain you little shit fuck.
& the worst part.
I'M NOT KIDDING.
You basen my mother, my father, and my wife and many other things dear to me all in one paragraph you diseased piece of filth. By all means slander me every which way to sunset, but, do you even have a fucking clue what you are saying? Do you? DO YOU? You fucked up piece of subhuman detritus. Are you intentionaly trying to push my fucking buttons?
Well guess what skippy. You did. You've wound up the key in my fucking back, and now the spring is going tick tick tick.
I've stepped in roadkill better than you, and met glue sniffing sewer childeren that were better off than you to live. Do the fucking world a favour and take Ripper The Razors advice. Down the street NOT across the road. ok?
I'm going to follow you round this (and any other I can locate you on) forum repeating my mantra of hate against you. And please. Do not make the mistake of thinking I am
a. joking or b. doing some kind of 'arastocrats' thing. I'm not. I mean ALL of it.
Enjoy seeing this jon. A lot. everywhere. hasta la fucking vista ya cocknozzle.
Can anyone translate that into el 'fuckin spanish so I know my message is not lost in translation?
~~~~~
Lys: does saying to Randi "Hey Randi, dude, I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not going to give me this million, as I predicted it with my powers" net you a million or does Randi's head assplode?
That was amazing.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
This is possibly the most pompous and insulting post I have ever read on this forum.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:04:09 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
This is possibly the most pompous and insulting post I have ever read on this forum.
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:04:09 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
This is possibly the most pompous and insulting post I have ever read on this forum.
Telling people what they
really believe is in vogue, these days.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
Which of course does not make it any less useful. In the rare cases when the goal is something other than "make lots of dough", it is probably beneficial not to be doing by-the-book cold reading and to instead let the law of fives take over.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
Or maybe they are -crazy idea- relating what the standard meanings of the cards are? Sounds nutso, I know, but yes some people know what the meanings (multiple and many-layered meanings) of the cards are, and are able to explain them to someone who knows nothing about the cards.
How insane!
One does not need to believe they are psychic to read tarot cards. The cards have standard meanings and it is the job of the reader to simply interpret or translate the meaning.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?
:lol:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?
I now have in my head a mental image, entitled:
"THE MAD SCIENTIST PEER REVIEW BOARD"
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
Or maybe they are -crazy idea- relating what the standard meanings of the cards are? Sounds nutso, I know, but yes some people know what the meanings (multiple and many-layered meanings) of the cards are, and are able to explain them to someone who knows nothing about the cards.
How insane!
One does not need to believe they are psychic to read tarot cards. The cards have standard meanings and it is the job of the reader to simply interpret or translate the meaning.
Why do you assume an OR there Hoops?
I grasp the 'meanings' of the cards, I've taken a few classes from guys like Lon Milo. However, I have yet to see a tarot reader simply explain the archetypal references and the symbolic meanings, without drawing conclusions for the customer, which appear almost indistinguishable from cold reading... Indeed, it often appears that they explaain a symbol and the person volunteers information which they wrap into the interpretation.
Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.
Even Lon seems to think this is how it works, even if the reader doesn't realize it.
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?
I now have in my head a mental image, entitled:
"THE MAD SCIENTIST PEER REVIEW BOARD"
Despite my recent death, I am still, after all, a
professional.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:24:37 PM
Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.
So, basically, you're asking me to NOT believe in actual psychic ability on the same evidence as the psychics ask me TO believe it, which is "none at all".
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:24:37 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:08:38 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:07:18 PM
Insulting perhaps, but I have to say, Lys has a point there...
Other than the one on the top of his head, you mean?
Where?
In my observations... most people that seem to truly believe they're psychic, or tarot readers etc... are subconsciously doing the same sort of stuff Lys is talking about, call it cold reading or not. I don't know if they're deluding themselves, or just don't realize they're doing it, because they're naturally good at reading people or what... but "what the cards tell me" IMO translates directly to "what my subconscious translates the cards to mean" which (in most cases) seems to be affected by the person sitting across from them.
Or maybe they are -crazy idea- relating what the standard meanings of the cards are? Sounds nutso, I know, but yes some people know what the meanings (multiple and many-layered meanings) of the cards are, and are able to explain them to someone who knows nothing about the cards.
How insane!
One does not need to believe they are psychic to read tarot cards. The cards have standard meanings and it is the job of the reader to simply interpret or translate the meaning.
Why do you assume an OR there Hoops?
I grasp the 'meanings' of the cards, I've taken a few classes from guys like Lon Milo. However, I have yet to see a tarot reader simply explain the archetypal references and the symbolic meanings, without drawing conclusions for the customer, which appear almost indistinguishable from cold reading... Indeed, it often appears that they explaain a symbol and the person volunteers information which they wrap into the interpretation.
Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.
Even Lon seems to think this is how it works, even if the reader doesn't realize it.
When I read cards for people, which is admittedly not often, I always and only explain what each card is thought to mean. I leave whatever interpretations the listener might make up to them. To do anything more seems dishonest to me, since I know I have zero psychic ability, and I don't believe the cards do either. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy working with them.
The moral implications of your and Lys's arguments in this regard are staggering to consider.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:24:37 PM
Yeah, Dr. Howl, that's exactly what I did because we only ever discuss objectively verifiable statistics here.
So, basically, you're asking me to NOT believe in actual psychic ability on the same evidence as the psychics ask me TO believe it, which is "none at all".
Absolutely not. I'm not asking you to believe in anything. I am simply telling you my observations of my subjective experience. Could some people have psychic powers, sure. Could those people use the tarot to perform psychic feats, sure. However, after studying the tarot, reading the Book of Thoth and Lon Milo DuQuette's book on understanding the Book of Thoth, and after using the Tarot myself and watching many other tarot readers at work, I think my subjective observations have some value.
I'm not claiming that ALL tarot readers do this, only that the ones I've observed seem to do that.
Hoops,
That's great, then what I just said doesn't apply to you. I use the cards similarly, but only for myself. I find that if I try to use them for someone else, its easy to shade the view with my own views.
But, ah, I wouldn't say its "what the cards tell me", would you?
Christ no.
I say its what they are whispering to me.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:38:29 PM
Christ no.
I say its what they are whispering to me.
:lulz:
touche!
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:37:31 PM
Could some people have psychic powers, sure.
Maybe it's just me, but that sentence holds a tremendous amount of "maybe".
Because no one can really offer an explanation, or a decent way of either defining of clinically testing "psychic powers", that sentence has about the same meaning as "Could dragons exist, sure."
For me.
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 11, 2010, 06:21:57 PM
I trust you have recorded and tabulated these observations for peer review?
I now have in my head a mental image, entitled:
"THE MAD SCIENTIST PEER REVIEW BOARD"
Ask and ye shall receive:
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab46/Altyvision/MADrevieboard.jpg)
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:30:09 PM
The moral implications of your and Lys's arguments in this regard are staggering to consider.
I want to go back to this for a second. I don't see much of a moral implication in what I'm claiming... so maybe I should clarify:
There appears to be several different ways that people 'read tarot'.
1) The people that really, really believe that the tarot is a sacred deck handed down from ancient Egyptian times holds the ability to unveil the future. These people read the symbols as truth. They seem deluded to me. Sadly many Thelemics fall here, much to the chagrin of that poor old sod Crowley
2) The people that are scam artists. They know they're bullshitting.
3) The people that consider the tarot as a set of symbols which are useful for a sort of guided self-reflection or introspection.
4) The people that seem genuinely interested in using the cards to help people but (in my opinion, based on my observations) appear to be subconsciously using them to draw out the customers thoughts which get repackaged and handed back... I don't think this is always or even often an intentional act. After all, digging into the subconscious is precisely what a complex ritual (like a spread) is designed to do, if we assume M=GL(1-A)(1-R)
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:41:59 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 06:37:31 PM
Could some people have psychic powers, sure.
Maybe it's just me, but that sentence holds a tremendous amount of "maybe".
Because no one can really offer an explanation, or a decent way of either defining of clinically testing "psychic powers", that sentence has about the same meaning as "Could dragons exist, sure."
For me.
I'm glad, because that's exactly how I feel... there is a tremendous amount of Maybe attached to any phenomena which isn't easily measured in an objective way. I have no problem leaving the hunchback there until I find a way to drill him into a solider.
I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M? Sure."
I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:52:06 PM
I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M? Sure."
I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.
Ah, I intended it to be more like "Is the likelihood greater than Absolute 0?"
EDIT:
To be clear, I think there are a lot of natural phenomena which we don't yet understand and may appear to the people experiencing it as 'psychic'. Not that it necessarily IS supernatural in any way, only that it seems supernatural and uses some medium we can't yet measure or haven't yet identified. Or, maybe there is 'psychic powers' I don't know, but I haven't seen any examples that made me feel strongly that there MUST be psychic powers... some experiences I've had did lead me to consider the possibility though.
That's sloppy of you. Since you often model using the sliding scale of Truth, you need to clarify where on that scale you're putting you statements.
(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab46/Altyvision/MADrevieboard.jpg)
Eeek! IANAR is on the board?? I quit!
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:52:06 PM
I think it was the way you tossed that in so casually, like you were saying, "Could they someday make a glow in the dark M&M? Sure."
I for one find it much more likely that they will make a glow in the dark M&M before they ever get around to figuring out if the broad spectrum of "psychic powers" exists.
I get the impression that "the paranormal", like "philosophy", is this kind of limbo area in which people shove things that are not yet sufficiently describe by science, and then pull them out once science sufficiently describes them. The stuff that currently constitutes, say, ESP, I expect to be pulled out and explained piecemeal, and then immediately taken out of the running for indicating ESP -- "well, sure you can navigate a crowded unfamiliar room blindfolded -- you have an internal compass and can sense your body's electromagnetic field like most mammals", "well, sure you can determine what a stranger is feeling from across the room -- microexpresssions!" If all tarot ever was was cold reading and pretty cards, that doesn't make it bunk -- that makes it cold reading and pretty cards, which work as well as they have ever worked.
Quote from: LMNO on February 11, 2010, 06:57:18 PM
That's sloppy of you. Since you often model using the sliding scale of Truth, you need to clarify where on that scale you're putting you statements.
Sure:
All Psychic Claims Are True <------1------------------------2--------------------3----------------------> No Psychic Claims Are True
1. Some psychic claims are actual psychic powers
2. 'Psychic powers' are often a generic label that cover interesting phenomena which we don't yet understand but will eventually find a rational explanation for (even if its something weird like morphogenetic fields)
3. 'Psychic Powers' are often a result of confirmation bias and other psychological tricks that the 'psychic' may not even realize they're doing.
Something like that... better?
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Hell yeah, my cat believes in it. He better to if he wants the steady supply of kitty crunchies to continue. :lol:
NP, Lysergic. We can agree to disagree on this particular matter. You believe I'm practicing cold reading, while I believe I'm applying my 17 years experience as a counselor to the interpretation of Jungian archetypes as expressed by the tarot cards in order to help the caller sort things out for themselves.
In fact, I used tarot cards as a therapy tool, long before moving into the reading business.
Quote from: Bella on February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Hell yeah, my cat believes in it. He better to if he wants the steady supply of kitty crunchies to continue. :lol:
NP, Lysergic. We can agree to disagree on this particular matter. You believe I'm practicing cold reading, while I believe I'm applying my 17 years experience as a counselor to the interpretation of Jungian archetypes as expressed by the tarot cards in order to help the caller sort things out for themselves.
In fact, I used tarot cards as a therapy tool, long before moving into the reading business.
So then its 'what your experience as a counselor and interpreter of archetypes' tells you... not what the cards tell you, eh Bella? ;-)
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 07:11:38 PM
Quote from: Bella on February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Hell yeah, my cat believes in it. He better to if he wants the steady supply of kitty crunchies to continue. :lol:
NP, Lysergic. We can agree to disagree on this particular matter. You believe I'm practicing cold reading, while I believe I'm applying my 17 years experience as a counselor to the interpretation of Jungian archetypes as expressed by the tarot cards in order to help the caller sort things out for themselves.
In fact, I used tarot cards as a therapy tool, long before moving into the reading business.
So then its 'what your experience as a counselor and interpreter of archetypes' tells you... not what the cards tell you, eh Bella? ;-)
Pretty much, although the cards are the focal point I use most often.
That and my tummy.......which tells I'm hungry and it's time to go eat Chinese food!
Quote from: Bella on February 11, 2010, 07:54:49 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 11, 2010, 07:11:38 PM
Quote from: Bella on February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Hell yeah, my cat believes in it. He better to if he wants the steady supply of kitty crunchies to continue. :lol:
NP, Lysergic. We can agree to disagree on this particular matter. You believe I'm practicing cold reading, while I believe I'm applying my 17 years experience as a counselor to the interpretation of Jungian archetypes as expressed by the tarot cards in order to help the caller sort things out for themselves.
In fact, I used tarot cards as a therapy tool, long before moving into the reading business.
So then its 'what your experience as a counselor and interpreter of archetypes' tells you... not what the cards tell you, eh Bella? ;-)
Pretty much, although the cards are the focal point I use most often.
That and my tummy.......which tells I'm hungry and it's time to go eat Chinese food!
:lulz:
At least come up with some creative new stuff... I hate reruns.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 11, 2010, 06:04:09 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
This is possibly the most pompous and insulting post I have ever read on this forum.
Hey, it's not *that* insulting.
I have a certain view/understanding of all sorts of divining methods, I grew up with a pack of rider waite tarot cards, I've sold crystals and read books on feng shui.
I'm just saying that I'm thinking here, I'm not trying to be insulting.
If I wanted to be insulting, I could have tried much harder, you know.
Sometimes I wonder if you're just out to *get* me hoops.
Quote from: Ne+@uNGr0+ on February 11, 2010, 09:31:58 AM
There's no ethical problem with placebos unless it is administered as a cure, or otherwise prevents people from seeking medical help for a serious medical issue. I highly doubt that people call psychics for any sort of medical advice.
Incredibly enough, people call for medical advice all the time, Net. I'm always happy to tell them it's against the law for me to practice medicine without a license and refer them to their doctor. Same with the folks who want legal, financial, or political advice.
Quote from: Bella on February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 11, 2010, 05:11:28 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 10, 2010, 10:20:29 PM
Hi, everybody! I'm back......at least for the moment.
This thread was irresistible. :)
For exactly 10 years this month, I've been making my living reading tarot cards via a site called keen.com Prior to that, I worked as crisis counselor and victim advocate. The sole reason I switched to reading cards is $$$. I was a single mom making hardly enough money to get by until the switch to reading cards quadrupled my formerly pathetic income.
Do I tell people what they want to hear? Not unless it's really what I see in the cards.
Do I practice cold reading? No. I have no objection to someone doing cold readings, but it's no way to build a solid base of returning customers.
Do I refer my callers to more traditional sources of help? All the time.
Do I feel bad about charging a shitload of money? Nope.
My conscience bothered me a little until I realized that what the people want is a friendly stranger they can bare their souls to without having to face any repercussions in real life - just like Alty said. They don't want to be told they're spending too much money or calling too often or becoming dependent on their psychic.
Bella,
Who sleeps on that bed of money next to the Love Stoat.
Bella, while you may be thinking you aren't telling people anything but what the cards tell you, and that you're not doing cold reading, I disagree.
Having researched and tried all different sorts of divination techniques and having a keen interest in psychic abilities and how things can *seem* psychic but are not (this is me doing some "psychic" entertainment http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodRevFelix#p/a/u/1/7OSDTotEHIQ) and knowing that to most people can't tell the difference between "genuine" psychics and charlatans like myself, I believe that pretty much all diviners who think they're legit have just convinced themselves that what they are doing is real, but really, you're just using cold reading and feeding the people what they want to hear, even if you think you're not.
I've met a few 'psychics' in my time who claim not to use cold reading, yet when I get them to show me what they can do, it all amounts to cold reading, they just don't "label" it as such in their minds.
The only difference between what I do (or any professional mentalist) and what they do is, I can get better results then them because I actually understand the process, where as they are just just really guessing and using barnum statements without knowing what constitutes as a barnum statement.
Please though, don't get me wrong, while I do have my doubts as to your "authenticity", it's interesting to see what one such as yourself would have to say about the practice, and I heartily encourage such mindfuckery.
Who knows, maybe there really is such a thing as psychic ability. I know your cat believes in it, Bella ;)
Hell yeah, my cat believes in it. He better to if he wants the steady supply of kitty crunchies to continue. :lol:
NP, Lysergic. We can agree to disagree on this particular matter. You believe I'm practicing cold reading, while I believe I'm applying my 17 years experience as a counselor to the interpretation of Jungian archetypes as expressed by the tarot cards in order to help the caller sort things out for themselves.
In fact, I used tarot cards as a therapy tool, long before moving into the reading business.
That's fair enough.
Please know, I'm not so much having a go at you as I am saying what I've come to believe in my experience.
As someone who's interested in such areas of things and how I can exploit such "tools" to my profit, what you have to say is still very valuable to me, regardless of how much I "believe" it.
Oh yeah, you should really fix that broken drawer in your house, and get rid of that old calendar.
And I really love that gold necklace you have.
:wink:
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 12, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
OK Rat. I'll save it for burrying jon in spam when he tries to communicate anything of intent.
Oh feel free to pile on, just change it up a bit, add some WOMP or a new diatribe (nice screed though I must say)... :lulz:
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 12, 2010, 12:39:40 AM
Quote from: Horrendous Foreign Love Stoat on February 12, 2010, 12:26:01 AM
OK Rat. I'll save it for burrying jon in spam when he tries to communicate anything of intent.
Oh feel free to pile on, just change it up a bit, add some WOMP or a new diatribe (nice screed though I must say)... :lulz:
An automatic polemic generator might come in handy. Want one?
Oh dear, looks like this thread has gone off the rails.
Oh well.
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
...
Wow Nigel, there are so many things wrong with what you just said, my heads about to explode.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:52:25 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
...
Wow Nigel, there are so many things wrong with what you just said, my heads about to explode.
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
Have you looked at the title of this thread? I mean, man, I'm sorry, but it makes you sound like a horrible person.
QuoteRe: MAKE MONEY TELLING STUPID PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, SRSLY.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:52:25 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
...
Wow Nigel, there are so many things wrong with what you just said, my heads about to explode.
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
I think it's unethical to "channel" dead loved ones and tell people that they're "here right now" and then get them into a horrible emotional state, and to "see" things in the future that will influence the choices a person will make that could have very dire consequences.
Anything and everything I do, I do realising that people *might* just take me seriously, and with that in mind, I make sure not to say anything that will affect their lives and what choices they make that could be seriously stupid choices.I have an understanding that there are ethical and moral implications to what effects I have on people, something a lot of psychics (mind you, not "all" psychics, just *a lot* that I've met) seem to have a complete disregard for.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 01:01:03 AM
Have you looked at the title of this thread? I mean, man, I'm sorry, but it makes you sound like a horrible person.
QuoteRe: MAKE MONEY TELLING STUPID PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, SRSLY.
You want to know what inspired the title of this thread?
I was actually thinking about mistress freaky at the time, hoping I might be able to give her some tools to make a bit of cash to get by if she's up for it.
My only interests in cold reading and psychic phenomena is mainly for entertainment. (Oh, and making money, off people who both believe in psychic ability, and those who don't believe in it)
I *am* a magician and a mentalist. Divination, psychic phenomena and trickery are all part and parcel of that particular industry.
Difference between us and people who claim they're powers are real, is that we're honest liars and will only take delusion to a certain point where as most "honest" psychics know no bounds.
It's all illusions. Tricks are what whores do for money.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:37:03 AM
That's fair enough.
Please know, I'm not so much having a go at you as I am saying what I've come to believe in my experience.
As someone who's interested in such areas of things and how I can exploit such "tools" to my profit, what you have to say is still very valuable to me, regardless of how much I "believe" it.
Oh yeah, you should really fix that broken drawer in your house, and get rid of that old calendar.
And I really love that gold necklace you have.
:wink:
Ummm.......not to sound like a jerk, but while you were bang on the money about the cat.........we don't have a broken drawer (and what's up with that? EVERYONE has a broken drawer!) HFLS is insane for making sure the calendars are up to date, and I only wear silver jewelry
You want to know the best part about being a professional psychic? Not only do we get funny looks when people ask what we do for a living, but it's a surefire way to get out of jury duty every fucking single time.
Quote from: Bella on February 12, 2010, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:37:03 AM
That's fair enough.
Please know, I'm not so much having a go at you as I am saying what I've come to believe in my experience.
As someone who's interested in such areas of things and how I can exploit such "tools" to my profit, what you have to say is still very valuable to me, regardless of how much I "believe" it.
Oh yeah, you should really fix that broken drawer in your house, and get rid of that old calendar.
And I really love that gold necklace you have.
:wink:
Ummm.......not to sound like a jerk, but while you were bang on the money about the cat.........we don't have a broken drawer (and what's up with that? EVERYONE has a broken drawer!) HFLS is insane for making sure the calendars are up to date, and I only wear silver jewelry
You want to know the best part about being a professional psychic? Not only do we get funny looks when people ask what we do for a living, but it's a surefire way to get out of jury duty every fucking single time.
Then ignore the misses while I fling a few more predictions at you ;)
But yeah, most people have a broken drawer or door of some kind, most women have owned and prefer gold jewelery over silver (although, as in your case, the others who don't prefer silver over gold), and most people have an old calendar around the house somewhere.
Anyway, if I really wanted to push it, I could mention say, "Oh, didn't your grandmother used to have a gold necklace?" and "Hmm, maybe I'm getting a vision of a drawer or a door like things that opens and closes but hasn't been working right lately" and "Oh, there's an old calendar date that's been circled that's a very important date somewhere between october and december"
Strange, most of those things hit 90% of the time with most people I've tried it on :P
But yeah, it's difficult to "read" things online, when I do it with a person in real life, I'm looking for reactions and ways I can make the things you say "fit" if I don't quite get things right on.
Here, let me try and get a better feel for my psychic intuition...
You are a person prone to bouts of self-examination. This is in sharp contrast to a striking ability you have developed to appear very socially engaged, even the life and soul of the party; but in a way that only convinces others. You are all too aware of it being a facade.
This means that you will often be at a gathering and find yourself playing a part. While on the one hand you'll be talkative and funny, you'll be detaching yourself to the point where you will find yourself watching everything going on around you and feeling utterly unable to engage. You'll play conversations back to yourself in your head and wonder what that person really meant when he said such-and-such – conversations that other people wouldn't give a second thought to.
How have you learned to deal with this conflict? Through exercising control. You like to show a calm, self-assured fluid kind of stability (but because this is self-consciously created, it will create bouts of frustrated silliness and a delight in extremes, or at least a delight in being seen to be extreme). You most easily recognize this control in how you are with people around you. You have learned to protect yourself by keeping people at bay. Because in the past you have learned to be disappointed by people, you instinctively keep people at arms' length, until you decide they are allowed over that magic line into your group of close friends. However, once across that line, the problem is that an emotional dependency kicks in which leaves you feeling very hurt or rejected if it appears that they have betrayed that status.
Because you are prone to self-examination, you will be aware of these traits. However, you are unusually able to examine even that self-examination, which means that you have become concerned about what the real you is. You have become all too aware of facades, of sides of yourself which you present to the world, and you wonder if you have lost touch with the real and spontaneous you.
You are very creative, and have tried different avenues to utilize that ability. It may not be that you specifically, say, paint; it may be that your creativity shows itself in more subtle ways, but you will certainly find yourself having vivid and well-formed ideas which others will find hard to grasp. You set high standards for yourself, though, and in many ways are a bit of a perfectionist. The problem is, though, that it means you often don't get stuff done, because you are frustrated by the idea of mediocrity and are wearied by the idea of starting something afresh. However, once your brain is engaged you'll find yourself sailing. Very much this will likely lead to you having considered writing a novel or some such, but a fear that you won't be able to achieve quite what you want stops you from getting on with it. But you have a real vision for things, which others fall short of. Particularly in your academic/college situation, you are currently fighting against restraints upon your desire to express yourself freely.
Your relationship with your parents is under some strain. You wish to remain fond of them but recent issues are causing frustration – from your side far more than theirs. In fact they seem unaware of your thoughts on the matter. Partly this is because there are ways in which you have been made to feel isolated from certain groups in the past – something of an outsider. Now what is happening is that you are taking that outsider role and defending it to the point of consciously avoiding being part of a group. This will serve you well in your creative and career pursuits. You have an enormous cynicism towards those who prefer to be part of a group or who exhibit any cliquey behaviour, and you always feel a pang of disappointment when you see your 'close' friends seeming to follow that route. Deep down it feels like rejection.
However, for all that introspection, you have developed a sensational, dry sense of humour that makes connections quickly and wittily and will leave you making jokes that go right over the heads of others. You delight in it so much that you'll often rehearse jokes or amusing voices to yourself in order to 'spontaneously' impress others with them. But this is a healthy desire to impress, and although you hate catching yourself at it, it's nothing to be so worried about.
There's also an odd feeling that you should have been born in a different century. You might be able to make more sense of that than I can.
There are some strong monetary shifts taking place at the moment. Both the recent past and what's in store over the next few months represent quite a change.
You have links at the moment with people abroad, which are quite interesting, and will look to yield worthwhile results. You're naturally a little disorganized. A look around your living space would show a box of photos, unorganized into albums, out-of-date medicines, broken items not thrown out, and notes to yourself which are significantly out of date. Something related to this is that you lack motivation. Because you're resourceful and talented enough to be pretty successful when you put your mind to things, this encourages you to procrastinate and put them off. Equally, you've given up dreams a little easily when your mind flitted elsewhere. There are in your home signs of an excursion into playing a musical instrument, which you have since abandoned, or are finding yourself less interested in. (This may alternatively relate to poetry and creative writing you've briefly tried your hand at and left behind you.) You have a real capacity for deciding that such-and-such a thing (or so-and-so a person) will be the be all and end all of everything and be with you for ever. But you'd rather try and fail, and swing from one extreme to the other, than settle for the little that you see others content with.
Conclusion: It's very interesting doing your reading, as you do present something of a conundrum, which won't surprise you. You are certainly bright, but unusually open to life's possibilities – something not normally found among achieving people. I'd say you'd do well to be less self-absorbed, as it tends to distance you a little, and to relinquish some of the control you exercise when you present that stylized version of yourself to others. You could let people in a little more, but I am aware that there is a darkness you feel you should hide (much of this is in the personal/relationship/sexual area, and is related to a neediness which you don't like).
You really have an appealing personality – genuinely. Many thanks for doing this, and for offering something far more substantial than most.
Lys, tangentally, that was the best cold reading I have ever had.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 01:31:03 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 12, 2010, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:37:03 AM
That's fair enough.
Please know, I'm not so much having a go at you as I am saying what I've come to believe in my experience.
As someone who's interested in such areas of things and how I can exploit such "tools" to my profit, what you have to say is still very valuable to me, regardless of how much I "believe" it.
Oh yeah, you should really fix that broken drawer in your house, and get rid of that old calendar.
And I really love that gold necklace you have.
:wink:
Ummm.......not to sound like a jerk, but while you were bang on the money about the cat.........we don't have a broken drawer (and what's up with that? EVERYONE has a broken drawer!) HFLS is insane for making sure the calendars are up to date, and I only wear silver jewelry
You want to know the best part about being a professional psychic? Not only do we get funny looks when people ask what we do for a living, but it's a surefire way to get out of jury duty every fucking single time.
Then ignore the misses while I fling a few more predictions at you ;)
But yeah, most people have a broken drawer or door of some kind, most women have owned and prefer gold jewelery over silver (although, as in your case, the others who don't prefer silver over gold), and most people have an old calendar around the house somewhere.
Anyway, if I really wanted to push it, I could mention say, "Oh, didn't your grandmother used to have a gold necklace?" and "Hmm, maybe I'm getting a vision of a drawer or a door like things that opens and closes but hasn't been working right lately" and "Oh, there's an old calendar date that's been circled that's a very important date somewhere between october and december"
Strange, most of those things hit 90% of the time with most people I've tried it on :P
But yeah, it's difficult to "read" things online, when I do it with a person in real life, I'm looking for reactions and ways I can make the things you say "fit" if I don't quite get things right on.
Here, let me try and get a better feel for my psychic intuition...
You are a person prone to bouts of self-examination. This is in sharp contrast to a striking ability you have developed to appear very socially engaged, even the life and soul of the party; but in a way that only convinces others. You are all too aware of it being a facade.
This means that you will often be at a gathering and find yourself playing a part. While on the one hand you'll be talkative and funny, you'll be detaching yourself to the point where you will find yourself watching everything going on around you and feeling utterly unable to engage. You'll play conversations back to yourself in your head and wonder what that person really meant when he said such-and-such – conversations that other people wouldn't give a second thought to.
How have you learned to deal with this conflict? Through exercising control. You like to show a calm, self-assured fluid kind of stability (but because this is self-consciously created, it will create bouts of frustrated silliness and a delight in extremes, or at least a delight in being seen to be extreme). You most easily recognize this control in how you are with people around you. You have learned to protect yourself by keeping people at bay. Because in the past you have learned to be disappointed by people, you instinctively keep people at arms' length, until you decide they are allowed over that magic line into your group of close friends. However, once across that line, the problem is that an emotional dependency kicks in which leaves you feeling very hurt or rejected if it appears that they have betrayed that status.
Because you are prone to self-examination, you will be aware of these traits. However, you are unusually able to examine even that self-examination, which means that you have become concerned about what the real you is. You have become all too aware of facades, of sides of yourself which you present to the world, and you wonder if you have lost touch with the real and spontaneous you.
You are very creative, and have tried different avenues to utilize that ability. It may not be that you specifically, say, paint; it may be that your creativity shows itself in more subtle ways, but you will certainly find yourself having vivid and well-formed ideas which others will find hard to grasp. You set high standards for yourself, though, and in many ways are a bit of a perfectionist. The problem is, though, that it means you often don't get stuff done, because you are frustrated by the idea of mediocrity and are wearied by the idea of starting something afresh. However, once your brain is engaged you'll find yourself sailing. Very much this will likely lead to you having considered writing a novel or some such, but a fear that you won't be able to achieve quite what you want stops you from getting on with it. But you have a real vision for things, which others fall short of. Particularly in your academic/college situation, you are currently fighting against restraints upon your desire to express yourself freely.
Your relationship with your parents is under some strain. You wish to remain fond of them but recent issues are causing frustration – from your side far more than theirs. In fact they seem unaware of your thoughts on the matter. Partly this is because there are ways in which you have been made to feel isolated from certain groups in the past – something of an outsider. Now what is happening is that you are taking that outsider role and defending it to the point of consciously avoiding being part of a group. This will serve you well in your creative and career pursuits. You have an enormous cynicism towards those who prefer to be part of a group or who exhibit any cliquey behaviour, and you always feel a pang of disappointment when you see your 'close' friends seeming to follow that route. Deep down it feels like rejection.
However, for all that introspection, you have developed a sensational, dry sense of humour that makes connections quickly and wittily and will leave you making jokes that go right over the heads of others. You delight in it so much that you'll often rehearse jokes or amusing voices to yourself in order to 'spontaneously' impress others with them. But this is a healthy desire to impress, and although you hate catching yourself at it, it's nothing to be so worried about.
There's also an odd feeling that you should have been born in a different century. You might be able to make more sense of that than I can.
There are some strong monetary shifts taking place at the moment. Both the recent past and what's in store over the next few months represent quite a change.
You have links at the moment with people abroad, which are quite interesting, and will look to yield worthwhile results. You're naturally a little disorganized. A look around your living space would show a box of photos, unorganized into albums, out-of-date medicines, broken items not thrown out, and notes to yourself which are significantly out of date. Something related to this is that you lack motivation. Because you're resourceful and talented enough to be pretty successful when you put your mind to things, this encourages you to procrastinate and put them off. Equally, you've given up dreams a little easily when your mind flitted elsewhere. There are in your home signs of an excursion into playing a musical instrument, which you have since abandoned, or are finding yourself less interested in. (This may alternatively relate to poetry and creative writing you've briefly tried your hand at and left behind you.) You have a real capacity for deciding that such-and-such a thing (or so-and-so a person) will be the be all and end all of everything and be with you for ever. But you'd rather try and fail, and swing from one extreme to the other, than settle for the little that you see others content with.
Conclusion: It's very interesting doing your reading, as you do present something of a conundrum, which won't surprise you. You are certainly bright, but unusually open to life's possibilities – something not normally found among achieving people. I'd say you'd do well to be less self-absorbed, as it tends to distance you a little, and to relinquish some of the control you exercise when you present that stylized version of yourself to others. You could let people in a little more, but I am aware that there is a darkness you feel you should hide (much of this is in the personal/relationship/sexual area, and is related to a neediness which you don't like).
You really have an appealing personality – genuinely. Many thanks for doing this, and for offering something far more substantial than most.
Thank you for this most personal and revealing reading.
Next time I want information specific to almost the entire human race, I'll know who to contact. :wink:
Seriously, dude. I am aware of what cold reading is, and I still don't believe it's the same as what I do.
That schpeel should make its way onto the postcards for Robotic High Wierdness By Mail GASM.
Quote from: Bella on February 12, 2010, 01:40:47 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 01:31:03 AM
Quote from: Bella on February 12, 2010, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:37:03 AM
That's fair enough.
Please know, I'm not so much having a go at you as I am saying what I've come to believe in my experience.
As someone who's interested in such areas of things and how I can exploit such "tools" to my profit, what you have to say is still very valuable to me, regardless of how much I "believe" it.
Oh yeah, you should really fix that broken drawer in your house, and get rid of that old calendar.
And I really love that gold necklace you have.
:wink:
Ummm.......not to sound like a jerk, but while you were bang on the money about the cat.........we don't have a broken drawer (and what's up with that? EVERYONE has a broken drawer!) HFLS is insane for making sure the calendars are up to date, and I only wear silver jewelry
You want to know the best part about being a professional psychic? Not only do we get funny looks when people ask what we do for a living, but it's a surefire way to get out of jury duty every fucking single time.
Then ignore the misses while I fling a few more predictions at you ;)
But yeah, most people have a broken drawer or door of some kind, most women have owned and prefer gold jewelery over silver (although, as in your case, the others who don't prefer silver over gold), and most people have an old calendar around the house somewhere.
Anyway, if I really wanted to push it, I could mention say, "Oh, didn't your grandmother used to have a gold necklace?" and "Hmm, maybe I'm getting a vision of a drawer or a door like things that opens and closes but hasn't been working right lately" and "Oh, there's an old calendar date that's been circled that's a very important date somewhere between october and december"
Strange, most of those things hit 90% of the time with most people I've tried it on :P
But yeah, it's difficult to "read" things online, when I do it with a person in real life, I'm looking for reactions and ways I can make the things you say "fit" if I don't quite get things right on.
Here, let me try and get a better feel for my psychic intuition...
You are a person prone to bouts of self-examination. This is in sharp contrast to a striking ability you have developed to appear very socially engaged, even the life and soul of the party; but in a way that only convinces others. You are all too aware of it being a facade.
This means that you will often be at a gathering and find yourself playing a part. While on the one hand you'll be talkative and funny, you'll be detaching yourself to the point where you will find yourself watching everything going on around you and feeling utterly unable to engage. You'll play conversations back to yourself in your head and wonder what that person really meant when he said such-and-such – conversations that other people wouldn't give a second thought to.
How have you learned to deal with this conflict? Through exercising control. You like to show a calm, self-assured fluid kind of stability (but because this is self-consciously created, it will create bouts of frustrated silliness and a delight in extremes, or at least a delight in being seen to be extreme). You most easily recognize this control in how you are with people around you. You have learned to protect yourself by keeping people at bay. Because in the past you have learned to be disappointed by people, you instinctively keep people at arms' length, until you decide they are allowed over that magic line into your group of close friends. However, once across that line, the problem is that an emotional dependency kicks in which leaves you feeling very hurt or rejected if it appears that they have betrayed that status.
Because you are prone to self-examination, you will be aware of these traits. However, you are unusually able to examine even that self-examination, which means that you have become concerned about what the real you is. You have become all too aware of facades, of sides of yourself which you present to the world, and you wonder if you have lost touch with the real and spontaneous you.
You are very creative, and have tried different avenues to utilize that ability. It may not be that you specifically, say, paint; it may be that your creativity shows itself in more subtle ways, but you will certainly find yourself having vivid and well-formed ideas which others will find hard to grasp. You set high standards for yourself, though, and in many ways are a bit of a perfectionist. The problem is, though, that it means you often don't get stuff done, because you are frustrated by the idea of mediocrity and are wearied by the idea of starting something afresh. However, once your brain is engaged you'll find yourself sailing. Very much this will likely lead to you having considered writing a novel or some such, but a fear that you won't be able to achieve quite what you want stops you from getting on with it. But you have a real vision for things, which others fall short of. Particularly in your academic/college situation, you are currently fighting against restraints upon your desire to express yourself freely.
Your relationship with your parents is under some strain. You wish to remain fond of them but recent issues are causing frustration – from your side far more than theirs. In fact they seem unaware of your thoughts on the matter. Partly this is because there are ways in which you have been made to feel isolated from certain groups in the past – something of an outsider. Now what is happening is that you are taking that outsider role and defending it to the point of consciously avoiding being part of a group. This will serve you well in your creative and career pursuits. You have an enormous cynicism towards those who prefer to be part of a group or who exhibit any cliquey behaviour, and you always feel a pang of disappointment when you see your 'close' friends seeming to follow that route. Deep down it feels like rejection.
However, for all that introspection, you have developed a sensational, dry sense of humour that makes connections quickly and wittily and will leave you making jokes that go right over the heads of others. You delight in it so much that you'll often rehearse jokes or amusing voices to yourself in order to 'spontaneously' impress others with them. But this is a healthy desire to impress, and although you hate catching yourself at it, it's nothing to be so worried about.
There's also an odd feeling that you should have been born in a different century. You might be able to make more sense of that than I can.
There are some strong monetary shifts taking place at the moment. Both the recent past and what's in store over the next few months represent quite a change.
You have links at the moment with people abroad, which are quite interesting, and will look to yield worthwhile results. You're naturally a little disorganized. A look around your living space would show a box of photos, unorganized into albums, out-of-date medicines, broken items not thrown out, and notes to yourself which are significantly out of date. Something related to this is that you lack motivation. Because you're resourceful and talented enough to be pretty successful when you put your mind to things, this encourages you to procrastinate and put them off. Equally, you've given up dreams a little easily when your mind flitted elsewhere. There are in your home signs of an excursion into playing a musical instrument, which you have since abandoned, or are finding yourself less interested in. (This may alternatively relate to poetry and creative writing you've briefly tried your hand at and left behind you.) You have a real capacity for deciding that such-and-such a thing (or so-and-so a person) will be the be all and end all of everything and be with you for ever. But you'd rather try and fail, and swing from one extreme to the other, than settle for the little that you see others content with.
Conclusion: It's very interesting doing your reading, as you do present something of a conundrum, which won't surprise you. You are certainly bright, but unusually open to life's possibilities – something not normally found among achieving people. I'd say you'd do well to be less self-absorbed, as it tends to distance you a little, and to relinquish some of the control you exercise when you present that stylized version of yourself to others. You could let people in a little more, but I am aware that there is a darkness you feel you should hide (much of this is in the personal/relationship/sexual area, and is related to a neediness which you don't like).
You really have an appealing personality – genuinely. Many thanks for doing this, and for offering something far more substantial than most.
Thank you for this most personal and revealing reading.
Next time I want information specific to almost the entire human race, I'll know who to contact. :wink:
Seriously, dude. I am aware of what cold reading is, and I still don't believe it's the same as what I do.
Fair enough.
Let me make it clear to you Bella though, despite my snarky undertones and skepticism about this all, I have no beef with what you do, and I'm not trying to undermine your profession, I'm sure you're one of the better professional psychics out there, and as far as I'm concerned, Tarot is another form of mindfuckery, and I'm all for mindfuckery.
Quote from: Cain on February 11, 2010, 04:02:09 PM
Doesn't Randi have an unsavoury rep amongst most serious skeptics anyway? I'm pretty sure someone here, like Iason, mentioned that once.
AFIAK, Randi is still in pretty good standing with most skeptics. There was an incident last year where he was leaning towards global warming denial that pissed some people off but I think some people straightened him out.
Just as an FYI, here's a list of things that are "common" for most people according to Red Hot Cold Reading...
I'm curious to see how much would apply to all you guys.
Most men prefer women with long hair.
Most men believe they cannot be hypnotized.
Most older men have come close to dying once in their lives.
Most men prefer king-size beds.
Most men like their present job.
Most men who smoke pipes are very deep thinkers.
Most men fear an IRS audit.
Most men prefer large dogs as pets.
Most-men enjoy reading books written by men.
Most men prefer showers.
Most men have an unopened bottle of after shave in the bathroom.
Most men do not wear hats.
Most men prefer women in dresses rather than skirts, blouses, or pant suits.
Most men fear baldness.
Most men have a key that they have forgotten where it goes.
Most older men are veterans.
Most women prefer baths.
Most women have looked at a Playboy Magazine.
Most women at one time or another have been told they have bedroom eyes.
Most women that wear hats consider themselves fashionable.
Most women do not send as many Christmas cards as they used to
Most women handle the family budget
Most women see themselves as incurable romantics.
Most women have had stronger attachments to their grandfather than their grandmother.
Most attractive women dislike being called cute.
Most women have an overweight girl friend.
Most women are better dancers than men.
Most tall women feel their feet are too big.
Most women have their mother's eyes.
Most women when they are being photographed feel they have a good side and a bad side.
Most women as children kept a diary.
Most women that wear black are weight conscious.
Most women pick out their husband's shirts and ties.
Most women have one breast larger than the other.
Most women prefer cats as pets.
Most women would not go hunting.
Most women feel they are not photogenic.
Most women enjoy reading books written by women.
Most women after losing an earring hold onto the mate - sometimes for years.
Most women snore but don't believe they do.
Most women believe they were a man in previous life.
Most elderly women have an unopened box of lace handkerchiefs at home.
Most women dislike men who wear white socks.
Most women say they dream in color.
Most women feel they need more iron in their diet.
Most women own lots of shoes - when they buy a new pair they seldom discard the old.
Most women are never totally pleased with the way their hair looks.
Most women at one time or another have owned a black nightgown.
Most women feel they are better kissers than their husbands or boy friends.
Most women remember having long hair as a child.
Most women like the smell of a pipe - and dislike cigars.
Most women dislike freckles.
Most women have had their ears pierced as teenagers.
Most women have attempted writing poetry as a teen.
Most women will stop at a gas station for directions - men won't.
Most women get cold feet in bed.
Most women dislike kissing a man with a mustache.
Most women - given a choice - would believe in palmistry over astrology, tarot cards,
numerology, tea leaves.
Most women over 30 wear one-piece bathing suits.
Most women like blue-eyed males over brown.
Women in shopping malls spend almost as much time studying other women as they do the
window. Men likewise study other women.
About 80% of the women who are asked what animal they would turn into reply "Cat".
Most women feel they are intuitive and would like to develop that ability.
Most women have had the thought "what if I had twins."
Most people, especially females, had an imaginary playmate.
80% of all females wear or have worn gold chains.
Mature women seem to like to visit flea markets, like handmade items rather than machine-
made, may make things themselves, and spoil their grandchildren.
Purple and blue axe significant colors for most women. They often have or are contemplating
purchasing something of that color. Especially strong when they may be wearing brown.
Most people believe that they have an identical twin somewhere in the world.
Most people have suffered an unrequited love.
Most people remember the good old days - not the bad old days.
Most people have at lease one broken watch at home.
Most people, as children, believed they would not live beyond a certain age.
Most people would say that spring is their favorite season.
Most people over 40 that don't wear glasses wear contact lenses.
Most people who smoke cigarettes have tried giving them up many times.
Most short people are outspoken.
Most people sleep on their sides, not on their backs.
Most people can wake up one minute before the alarm goes off.
Most older people dislike driving at night.
Most people have at least one ticklish spot on their body.
Most people have one leg longer than the other.
Most people feel they married too young.
Most people dislike Monday.
Most people love Friday.
Most people feel they are underpaid.
Most people have wondered what their purpose is in life.
Most people have seriously thought of buying a waterbed.
Most people that sit up front at a performance are the easiest to get to volunteer.
Most people have post nasal drip first thing in the morning.
Most have some difficulty dealing with authority.
Most people have had at least one memorable sunburn.
78% of adults have aches or problems associated with their feet, more for women who wear
high-heeled shoes.
When we were young, mothers tended to be open and treat us like little adults.
Were romantic, wrote prose or poetry of a romantic nature in high school.
Had great dream about what they would do after graduation that were not fulfilled.
Respond favorably to all Self-serving Bias statements.
Feel reassured and positive when told they have outgrown hurts, needs for or overcoming
self-limiting behaviors.
Most people at one time or another in their life are told they have too many teeth in their mouth
by their dentist.
Most people feel they have untapped artistic potential.
Most people fear rejection.
Most people prefer gold jewelry to silver.
Most red-haired people get hay fever in the summer.
Everybody has at one time or another had a premonition about something. Many have had a
premonition about an impending disaster or death.
A great number of people have experienced an Out-of-the-Body experience. Astral travel, or at
least know someone who has.
Most people feel they are resourceful, and could make it by themselves if stranded on a tropical
island.
Nearly everyone has - perhaps during adolescence - thought about suicide.
People fear rejection, are afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Don't forget the scar on the left knee.
Tall thin people are likely to have back problems.
Light complexioned individuals with freckles, especially with blue eyes, sunburn rather than tan.
Most light-complexioned people have red highlights in their hair.
Young girls usually think about nursing and teaching. Young boys think about becoming an
animal trainer.
Nearly every adult has lost someone close to them, separated by death, divorce.
Older men dislike grocery shopping, fear being "just a meal ticket."
It is common for people to agree that they had some difficulty relating to their father, especially
during adolescence.
People avoid getting into things they don't understand.
I think that list may deserve its own thread, or wiki page, in order to add new items as they come up. Certainly some of the more powerful ones would be awesome for constructing attention-getting memebombs or posters.
Just picking one at random:
Most men fear baldness - picture of a man with his hand on top of his head, line: the warmth from your hand, applied for just 15 minutes every day, is enough to reduce occurrences of male pattern baldness by 81%.
Ah, I dunno, but I think it'd be a good starting resource for.. better ideas, anyway.
:lol:
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:52:25 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
...
Wow Nigel, there are so many things wrong with what you just said, my heads about to explode.
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
I think it's unethical to "channel" dead loved ones and tell people that they're "here right now" and then get them into a horrible emotional state, and to "see" things in the future that will influence the choices a person will make that could have very dire consequences.
Anything and everything I do, I do realising that people *might* just take me seriously, and with that in mind, I make sure not to say anything that will affect their lives and what choices they make that could be seriously stupid choices.I have an understanding that there are ethical and moral implications to what effects I have on people, something a lot of psychics (mind you, not "all" psychics, just *a lot* that I've met) seem to have a complete disregard for.
Well, let me restate why I have no problem with the ethics of people who genuinely believe they have psychic ability or that the Tarot is tapping into something greater than their conscious mind:
The difference between accepting payment thinking you're helping people, and accepting payment knowing you're not, is the difference between a shaman and a snake oil salesman.
I am all for providing goods or services to people who can and will spend exorbitant amounts of money on luxuries they don't really need (but can afford), but exploiting people's gullibility, and then justifying it because the fine print says "for entertainment purposes only" doesn't make it any more ethical than the State-run gambling that generates revenue from the desperate desires of the impoverished to spend a few moments hoping and dreaming of getting the winning ticket.
Crowing about making money off people's stupidity is not really the behavior of someone with a normal sense of empathy or social justice. A tip for Freeky? I think Freeky, if she stops procrastinating and making excuses, has options and is smart enough to get her ducks in a row and make money providing goods or services that don't involve fleecing the public while she's working on getting her OTHER ducks in a row and getting the assistance she needs. I could walk her through starting up an online craft or resale business. Yes, it does take a small amount of capital up front, but sometimes that capital is already sitting around the house unused, or sometimes it's in the form of $10 worth of cassette tapes from a garage sale, and an eBay account. It could be in the form of $5 worth of sea salt and $15 worth of essential oils and food coloring, plus a few plastic bags and a roll of labels.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 04:46:21 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 01:05:37 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:52:25 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 12:50:36 AM
I'd also like to point out that I use Tarot cards myself and don't have ANY problem with the ethics of sincere psychics and Tarot card readers. What I have a problem with is people who go into such a profession with insincerity, chortling and rubbing their hands together at the idea of fleecing the unwary... ie. the "stupid", as Lysergic calls them... with full knowledge that they are using shyster cold-reading techniques. That's why the title (and premise) of this thread rubs me the wrong way.
...
Wow Nigel, there are so many things wrong with what you just said, my heads about to explode.
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
I think it's unethical to "channel" dead loved ones and tell people that they're "here right now" and then get them into a horrible emotional state, and to "see" things in the future that will influence the choices a person will make that could have very dire consequences.
Anything and everything I do, I do realising that people *might* just take me seriously, and with that in mind, I make sure not to say anything that will affect their lives and what choices they make that could be seriously stupid choices.I have an understanding that there are ethical and moral implications to what effects I have on people, something a lot of psychics (mind you, not "all" psychics, just *a lot* that I've met) seem to have a complete disregard for.
Well, let me restate why I have no problem with the ethics of people who genuinely believe they have psychic ability or that the Tarot is tapping into something greater than their conscious mind:
The difference between accepting payment thinking you're helping people, and accepting payment knowing you're not, is the difference between a shaman and a snake oil salesman.
I am all for providing goods or services to people who can and will spend exorbitant amounts of money on luxuries they don't really need (but can afford), but exploiting people's gullibility, and then justifying it because the fine print says "for entertainment purposes only" doesn't make it any more ethical than the State-run gambling that generates revenue from the desperate desires of the impoverished to spend a few moments hoping and dreaming of getting the winning ticket.
Crowing about making money off people's stupidity is not really the behavior of someone with a normal sense of empathy or social justice. A tip for Freeky? I think Freeky, if she stops procrastinating and making excuses, has options and is smart enough to get her ducks in a row and make money providing goods or services that don't involve fleecing the public while she's working on getting her OTHER ducks in a row and getting the assistance she needs. I could walk her through starting up an online craft or resale business. Yes, it does take a small amount of capital up front, but sometimes that capital is already sitting around the house unused, or sometimes it's in the form of $10 worth of cassette tapes from a garage sale, and an eBay account. It could be in the form of $5 worth of sea salt and $15 worth of essential oils and food coloring, plus a few plastic bags and a roll of labels.
But since when did I say I was not helping people?
Just because I think they're stupid and want their money, doesn't mean I'm not going to help them.
It's ridiculous to think that one person is better then another at an entertainment craft just because one believes what they do is real and the other realise's its all an act.
It's dangerous and silly to think that you genuinely have some "special" ability to see into the future, look at where it got all the doomsday cults. They were definitely sincere about what they were doing.
Just as it's dangerous and silly to sell homeopathic remedies.
No matter how sincere you are about it's working, if you start telling people who have cancer not to do what the doctors tell you to and drink diluted water instead, that's dangerous and stupid.
I've said this before, and it looks like I'll have to say it again: I am an entertainer. Cold reading is a technique that can be used for entertainment. Whenever I do such a service for anyone, they walk away happy, nearly all the time.
The only time people have gotten upset was when I pointed out their delusions of insanity and didn't like the fact that I was pointing out they live in a delusional world, citing 2012 lady again.
I don't endorse taking stupid peoples money merely because they are stupid.
I endorse taking peoples money because they are stupid and want to be entertained and are willing to pay for a service where they can get that.
I have never, and will never, at any time, tell people things that will a. Knowingly Upset them b. Tell them exactly what they should be doing with their lives c. Tell them things that could cause them to do stupid acts such as selling all their worldly belongings and murder their family d. Would be misleading in terms of what I genuinely do believe.
Really, you think that I'm a snake oil salesman.
Yes, in many ways, I sort of am. But I tell people they are buying snake oil. I advertise that fact. Whether the snake oil works or not is up to them to believe, I will never claim that what I do is real if they ever ask.
Other people on the other hand, will take that snake oil, sincerely believe it has magical properties, dilute it a million times to make it more "potent", and sell it as a cure for cancer.
Sincerity doesn't mean shit Nigel, it's intention and understanding that there is a lot of responsibility when it comes to telling things people that could affect their lives.
Watch this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdYWVYgOi3A&feature=related
This is exactly how I would like to do my readings in my area.
See, honesty, sincerity, and fleecing stupid people, and them loving it.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 05:23:19 AM
See, honesty, sincerity, and fleecing stupid people, and them loving it.
This is really all you had to say, Lys.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 06:00:20 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 05:23:19 AM
See, honesty, sincerity, and fleecing stupid people, and them loving it.
This is really all you had to say, Lys.
I should also say, though, when I say stupid people, I mean, all people are pretty stupid.
I should know, I'm one of the worst offenders.
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 12, 2010, 01:33:12 AM
i thought you were beginning to be reasonable
NEVERMIND
and by fuck, backpedaling from what? i dont need to take back my opinions to suck someones e-penis
by all means, continue to think the world spins around you
Here's the deal as I see it. You made references to someones family in your ALL CAPS sarcastic voice, that person became offended, and instead of apologising - taking shots at someones family crosses the line, in my opinion - you dig in deeper by becoming
more offensive. Just using caps is not a license for you to say just about anything you please without having to worry about who it hurts or without needing to take responsibility for that if it does.
Or, you can continue this hilarious drama by doing stuff like nitpicking in any way you think you can to "save face", offering backhanded apologies and being generally quite petty about the shit you carelessly stirred up.
Oh and for the record -
DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TAKING A SHOT AT MY FAMILY - protip: I'm not being sarcastic. Or am I? No - fuck off.
No worries, I just took a moment to imagine how it would make me feel to have someone take cheap shots at MY family.
I can't believe I missed that horrible shitfest of a post by Joh'Nyx. That was some contemptible shit, and for what?
I have to say Bella and HFLS are some the most remarkable and decent people I've ever posted on message boards with.
Quote from: FP on February 12, 2010, 06:49:58 AM
Quote from: Joh'Nyx on February 12, 2010, 01:33:12 AM
i thought you were beginning to be reasonable
NEVERMIND
and by fuck, backpedaling from what? i dont need to take back my opinions to suck someones e-penis
by all means, continue to think the world spins around you
Here's the deal as I see it. You made references to someones family in your ALL CAPS sarcastic voice, that person became offended, and instead of apologising - taking shots at someones family crosses the line, in my opinion - you dig in deeper by becoming more offensive. Just using caps is not a license for you to say just about anything you please without having to worry about who it hurts or without needing to take responsibility for that if it does.
Or, you can continue this hilarious drama by doing stuff like nitpicking in any way you think you can to "save face", offering backhanded apologies and being generally quite petty about the shit you carelessly stirred up.
Oh and for the record - DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TAKING A SHOT AT MY FAMILY - protip: I'm not being sarcastic. Or am I? No - fuck off.
This.
That passive/aggressive shit isn't excused by putting real thoughts "in italics" or all caps. It's just another way to make a horrible dig, and then claim "I was joking".
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:33:18 AM
Sometimes I wonder if you're just out to *get* me hoops.
Based on what, other than that comment? You might remember last year when Hunter went off on you I was one of the people who defended you. To the point of being threatened with bodily harm, I might add. Toughen up.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 06:21:29 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 06:00:20 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 05:23:19 AM
See, honesty, sincerity, and fleecing stupid people, and them loving it.
This is really all you had to say, Lys.
I should also say, though, when I say stupid people, I mean, all people are pretty stupid.
I should know, I'm one of the worst offenders.
...
so
fleecing people is totally awesome?
I don't know if it's a communication issue or what, but the way you talk about women (in the past) and humanity in general kind of makes you sound like a sociopath.
He is. Said so himself. Unapologetic about it.
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2010, 04:59:02 PM
He is. Said so himself. Unapologetic about it.
Does that make it better?
Hmm. Point. Gonna try to shut up again.
Quote from: LMNO on February 12, 2010, 04:59:02 PM
He is. Said so himself. Unapologetic about it.
Oh.
I guess I can stop talking about it, then.
*sigh*
OK, LISTEN GOOD, PLEASE.
1. I am not sociopath. Ask anyone who's ever met me. I'm the furthest thing from it you could imagine.
2. You shouldn't take my words so seriously, particularly when they're all in caps and say SRSLY.
3. Do you understand what being facetious is? (It was more a dig at the whole industry itself then trying to say, that one *should* be trying to fleece stupid people)
4. I have nothing but empathy and love and care for the people that I perform for. I am genuine in what I do in that I love to entertain, make people smile and be happy.
5. You've totally taken everything out of context.
That is all I'm going to say about this ever again.
If you don't like what I'm doing, I'm sorry, buuuut you're fucking retarded for thinking that I'm doing something bad.
I'm sorry, I have a lot of respect for you Nigel, but it's obvious you've made up your mind and I'm not going to change it anytime soon, I understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me, so I'm just going to do what a bunch of people are telling me to do and just ignore you til shit calms down.
Quote from: Hoopla on February 12, 2010, 04:15:12 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 12:33:18 AM
Sometimes I wonder if you're just out to *get* me hoops.
Based on what, other than that comment? You might remember last year when Hunter went off on you I was one of the people who defended you. To the point of being threatened with bodily harm, I might add. Toughen up.
Sorry hoops, you're right.
I meant, a lot of the time, it seems like you're out to get me, but I know you're not, you're just an asshole sometimes, right?
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 04:39:44 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 06:21:29 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 12, 2010, 06:00:20 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 12, 2010, 05:23:19 AM
See, honesty, sincerity, and fleecing stupid people, and them loving it.
This is really all you had to say, Lys.
I should also say, though, when I say stupid people, I mean, all people are pretty stupid.
I should know, I'm one of the worst offenders.
...
so fleecing people is totally awesome?
I don't know if it's a communication issue or what, but the way you talk about women (in the past) and humanity in general kind of makes you sound like a sociopath.
It's a communication issue.
You want to know what *I* really believe?
Quote"Let each person for whom I read be entertained, and let that person leave my presence feeling better, better about themselves, their potentials, and better about their life than when first we met"
- Cold Readers Creed.
Really.
Lysergic, I don't see the conflict as most here seem to between taking people's money who you may despise yet treat with respect.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me
Impossible. She realized that last week and sincerely, honestly and publically declared to the board she was not going to do that anymore. Again.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me, so I'm just going to do what a bunch of people are telling me to do and just ignore you til shit calms down.
You and everyone else needs to stop playing that card, now. My lack of respect for you is based on what you SAID, not based on breaking up with some guy two months ago.
You are filtering what I'm saying through the idea (erroneously introduced to the board by the late TGRR) that I'm "taking my personal life out on the board". I did reach a breaking point a few weeks ago, fueled by stress-induced hypertension which was leading to unusually frequent seizures, which affected both my mood and my reasoning. Things are going well right now - the seizures are now under control so that's not currently an issue, and you can stop using that it as an excuse to pretend that I don't
really find your stated attitude repugnant.
To clarify for you, I think the elitist, condescending attitude you've displayed toward your clients here,
through your words, is kind of shitty and I don't agree with the ethical philosophy that I'm seeing behind it. That's all. I would say that it's nice that you pretend to respect them to their faces, but the fact is that you wouldn't make any money if you didn't, so I can't really chalk it up to any quality of character other than pragmatism.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 13, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me
Impossible. She realized that last week and sincerely, honestly and publically declared to the board she was not going to do that anymore. Again.
I said that I was done with the collective and apologized for my erratic behavior. I also said that doesn't mean I'm going to go all nicey-nice, but rather, back to the same old Nigel I used to be. I am not sure how you took that to mean that I would never disagree with anyone again, or that I would permanently stop wording my arguments strongly. You seem to not so much want me to go back to being my pre-collective self, but to actually
stop being Nigel.I understand that the Cone collective really rattled you, but I would appreciate it if you could get past your resentment and stop viewing everything I post with such a jaundiced eye.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AM
3. Do you understand what being facetious is? (It was more a dig at the whole industry itself then trying to say, that one *should* be trying to fleece stupid people)
4. I have nothing but empathy and love and care for the people that I perform for. I am genuine in what I do in that I love to entertain, make people smile and be happy.
I think I would have believed you if you had said this initially, several days ago when I first was all "WTF is up with this "stupid people" thing?"
Also, to clarify AGAIN, I don't think you are "doing something bad". I think that the way you view your clients is bad. And it's a cumulative impression I've gained... not just in this thread, but over the course of many threads.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 13, 2010, 07:24:51 PM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me, so I'm just going to do what a bunch of people are telling me to do and just ignore you til shit calms down.
You and everyone else needs to stop playing that card, now. My lack of respect for you is based on what you SAID, not based on breaking up with some guy two months ago.
You are filtering what I'm saying through the idea (erroneously introduced to the board by the late TGRR) that I'm "taking my personal life out on the board". I did reach a breaking point a few weeks ago, fueled by stress-induced hypertension which was leading to unusually frequent seizures, which affected both my mood and my reasoning. Things are going well right now - the seizures are now under control so that's not currently an issue, and you can stop using that it as an excuse to pretend that I don't really find your stated attitude repugnant.
To clarify for you, I think the elitist, condescending attitude you've displayed toward your clients here, through your words, is kind of shitty and I don't agree with the ethical philosophy that I'm seeing behind it. That's all. I would say that it's nice that you pretend to respect them to their faces, but the fact is that you wouldn't make any money if you didn't, so I can't really chalk it up to any quality of character other than pragmatism.
Ok, sure, suddenly, you're now a mind reader and know everything there is to know about me.
The honest truth of the matter is, I consider myself a performer, what I do, I do not do merely because it's a good way to fleece people, in reality, it's the last thing I'm thinking of, but because I enjoy entertaining people. I like it when I can show people something new, and do things that mess with their minds, and I know that they are enjoying it.
You know what the best part of performing is? Seeing people react, particularly when they are smiling, that makes my day, that's the most pay I ever get most of the time I perform.
I don't care if they're "stupid" or clever, my audience is my audience, and I will do my best to entertain them, and when they leave, they will leave me feeling better about themselves and their possibilities. It's not even really about *me* as it is me telling a story and getting my audience involved in that.
I'm sorry Nigel, but I'm going to have to insist here, you've got this all wrong.
You don't know shit about what I do, and despite what you think you "know" about me over several threads, I seriously doubt you really understand what it is that I'm saying most of the time anyway.
Yes, I'm no saint, I've said and done some stupid shit in the past, but I'm not a sociopath, I have morals, I think about people besides myself, and I would never ever do anything to another human being that would hurt them in any shape.
What I think about any certain individuals is my own business, but on the majority of things, I actually *like* the people I do things for, and only want to give them a good deal where we can both walk away happy.
If this bothers you, then I give up. Believe whatever you want to believe, I can guarantee you, I have a clear conscience and I really don't give a shit what you choose to henceforth believe about me, I can sleep at night, knowing that I don't have anyone that hates me for whatever it is I do.
It's a shame Nigel, because, I *do* have a lot of respect and love for you, and I don't want to get into an argument about such a stupid thing with you, an argument that has no basis in reality, and a serious waste of keyboard strokes.
Honestly, I don't think I'm *better* then anyone else, I just have a talent for trickery, and people are usually happy to endorse me for tricking them in many ways, whether this be by telling their friends about me, to buying me a drink, for giving me venues to work at, and even, *gasp* occasionally, I might make *a little bit* of scratch, enough to buy me a few beers and a ride home.
That's the reality of what I do, and until filthy rich people want to start hiring me out for special shows, I don't think I'm ever going to make a fortune doing this, the thing I love to do for the people that I love.
I'm sorry, but with all due respect Nigel, take that high horse you rode in on and kill it, come back down to earth, please.
Did I not e-prime enough? I'm not pretending to know your mind. Like I bolded, all I know about you and how you view your clients and other people in general is through your words. If you consistently post in ways that make it sound like you genuinely respect people, then after a while I'll probably change my mind. For now, I remain suspicious, and no number of paragraphs are going to change that. Call it a high horse if you want, I'm just calling it a failure to see eye-to-eye.
And don't claim to respect me when the words you're typing reflect the opposite.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 03:54:53 AM
Did I not e-prime enough? I'm not pretending to know your mind. Like I bolded, all I know about you and how you view your clients and other people in general is through your words. If you consistently post in ways that make it sound like you genuinely respect people, then after a while I'll probably change my mind. For now, I remain suspicious, and no number of paragraphs are going to change that. Call it a high horse if you want, I'm just calling it a failure to see eye-to-eye.
And don't claim to respect me when the words you're typing reflect the opposite.
WOULD
You please quit being so literal
AND
Please stop writing so much. I can't even begin reading all this if I think it's going to be heavy.
Quote from: E.O.T. on February 14, 2010, 04:43:50 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 03:54:53 AM
Did I not e-prime enough? I'm not pretending to know your mind. Like I bolded, all I know about you and how you view your clients and other people in general is through your words. If you consistently post in ways that make it sound like you genuinely respect people, then after a while I'll probably change my mind. For now, I remain suspicious, and no number of paragraphs are going to change that. Call it a high horse if you want, I'm just calling it a failure to see eye-to-eye.
And don't claim to respect me when the words you're typing reflect the opposite.
WOULD
You please quit being so literal
No.
Quote
AND
Please stop writing so much. I can't even begin reading all this if I think it's going to be heavy.
Maybe.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 13, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me
Impossible. She realized that last week and sincerely, honestly and publically declared to the board she was not going to do that anymore. Again.
Actually, as I understand it, she declared she wouldn't go on mad shitting sprees. She didn't declare that she wouldn't call someone on something she perceives to be bullshit. Note that I am not saying whether or not she's right in this particular case, as I haven't quite figured out where I stand on this subject.
My apology:
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 07, 2010, 08:07:02 PM
I'm sorry for losing my shit and inflicting it on you.
I think I'm better now. At the very least, I'll try to not post on the board if I lose my shit again.
Follow-up post shortly thereafter:
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 08, 2010, 06:20:59 PM
Thanks! :)
Just in case anyone is worried, I'm not going to turn all nicey-nicey or any shit like that, I'm still going to be the same abrasive old Nigel. And I just want to make it clear: I'm not sorry for getting angry with some people. What I am sorry for is being a gigantic, irrational, hyperemotional, paranoid freak.
Link to apology thread:
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=24062.0
Just for clarity.
In case anyone is still under the impression that I'm behaving unusually, I highly recommend delving into the archives for comparison purposes. I assure you, I am not. I would appreciate it if my apology is never again misrepresented as me promising I've had the online version of a frontal lobotomy full of bunnies and cotton candy.
I rather wish anyone who feels they have anything left to say on the matter would either state their case or forever STFU. But that's probably just me being a crazy idealist, because it's much more fun to safely snipe from the sidelines.
Nigel, I don't think you should feel the need to apologise/comment/defend yourself any further on this subject, because amongst the people who like and respect you I think it's pretty much past history.
Thanks
Point taken.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2010, 04:50:12 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 13, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
Quote from: Lysergic on February 13, 2010, 05:02:20 AMI understand you've been through a lot of shit lately, and you're possibly taking some of that shit out on me
Impossible. She realized that last week and sincerely, honestly and publically declared to the board she was not going to do that anymore. Again.
Actually, as I understand it, she declared she wouldn't go on mad shitting sprees. She didn't declare that she wouldn't call someone on something she perceives to be bullshit.
Okay.
It's just the same pattern as what started those shitting sprees.
If, however, she just wants to take a single phrase, interpret it as literally as possible, sink her teeth in it, keep repeating herself ignoring everything else and wanking about it until the other party simply gets bored and gives up (which I think happened now, yeah?).
As opposed to turning it up a notch until it turns into a mad shitting spree,
then yeah, I guess, if I wanted to interpret that apology as literally as possible, I guess she has kept her promise.
It's just that, you know, I kind of took that apology as to actually
mean something, you know?
Because now it sounds like she was sorry for the fact that it got totally out of hand those time(s), but not for the behaviour that caused it.
Fine.
In that case right now she is apparently just picking a fight with Lys for no reason except that she sees the possibility of yanking on it just because it's there. Which I think is really childish. But then that's Lys's problem and he seems to have no trouble defending himself about it.
So I'll just keep my opinion on it to myself and take that apology for what it's apparently actually worth.
Quote from: Triple Zero on February 14, 2010, 12:25:38 PM
If, however, she just wants to take a single phrase, interpret it as literally as possible, sink her teeth in it, keep repeating herself ignoring everything else and wanking about it until the other party simply gets bored and gives up (which I think happened now, yeah?).
As I've mentioned several times, it's not based on a single phrase. It's based on a number of things he's said in posts, a general impression I'm getting about having a sense of superiority over those he's "entertaining".
Yes, take my apology literally; I apologized for freaking out, but I am not apologizing for "the behavior that led up to it" because that "behavior" is also called "my personality"; the same personality I've had since I signed up here, and I am not apologetic for being me, nor am I going to recreate myself at your whim.
And also, you know what, I'm getting tired of you following me around the board sniping whenever I'm not posting treacle and sunflowers. I have made up my mind to be extra nice to you because you seem like you're having some kind of stress breakout or something, but I do have to say, you've been pretty unreasonably bitchy lately, and not just toward me.
So there's a difference in ethical views, Nigel has a view, Lys ahas a view... why the fuck do either of you care? It's not like any of us usually agree on shit (if we did I would run screaming... MLA has enough of that :lulz: ).
Personally, I'm split. On the one hand I don't like scams that take advantage of people. On the other hand, I agree with J.R. Bob Dobbs about separating the Pinks from their green. So I'm gonna tell a story and leave it at that.
My grandmother was a Christian and she hated the fact that my Dad had become a JW. So she told him he was gonna go to hell. Dad tried to explain to her that "hell" as a place of everlasting torment wasn't supported by scripture, that it was a belief added centuries after Christs death etc. and then Grandma said a single line:
"If I can't believe that my father is burning in Hell, I wouldn't worship God". (My great-grandfather was a very bad person).
Later she was upset about Christmas and Dad again said "It's not in the Bible, his birthday isn't even in December." She replied that she would prove it. So she asked her preacher who laughed at her and said that my Dad was right. So Grandma said, "But, that's what I WILL believe."
The monkeys want to believe what they want to believe, if they want to believe in psychic powers, tarot, astrology or whatever... then they will. If that's what helps them cope with their existence, even if its false (like Grandma's views on her Dad...) then it's better than her molesting kids like he did... or killing herself. Some people need the wool over their eyes because they can't survive seeing the light.
If Lys gives them what they want/need then it doesn't matter to me if he thinks they're smart, dumb, cool, lame or just another mark. It's their choice, their reality tunnel.
Besides, 'what's wrong with that, if its what they want to do?'
It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect, as a companion to the appearance of contempt, that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.
Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 05:43:55 PM
It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.
Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.
You,?! in favor of arguing on the Net? Come on Nigel, I'm shocked!! That's as crazy as claiming I'm for arguing on the Net... :argh!:
I guess I can see the possible ethical issues with bilking people out of money... but I don't see the ethical issues around telling others how to do it too... In fact, if Lys knew how to seperate a Pink from their Green and kept it a secret from the rest of us, I'd have a ethical problem with that... Share and Share alike! :lulz:
In all honesty, FWIW, I think I'd rather have the bleating hoards fed cold readings from Lys than many/most of the 'psychics' I know around Columbus. At least he hasn't fooled himself about what he's doing.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 14, 2010, 05:49:20 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 05:43:55 PM
It was mostly the "hey guys, I'm so awesome, you should do this too" aspect that I was objecting to. It also brought up shades of his "how to pick up chicks" phase.
Personally, I think discussing and even arguing over differences in ethical views is as valid a use of the Internet as posting Youtube links.
You,?! in favor of arguing on the Net? Come on Nigel, I'm shocked!! That's as crazy as claiming I'm for arguing on the Net... :argh!:
I guess I can see the possible ethical issues with bilking people out of money... but I don't see the ethical issues around telling others how to do it too... In fact, if Lys knew how to seperate a Pink from their Green and kept it a secret from the rest of us, I'd have a ethical problem with that... Share and Share alike! :lulz:
In all honesty, FWIW, I think I'd rather have the bleating hoards fed cold readings from Lys than many/most of the 'psychics' I know around Columbus. At least he hasn't fooled himself about what he's doing.
But the part you're missing is that if he wasn't proselytizing for it, I'd have nothing to argue against, so it would all be a moot point.
Post it on the net and there's a basis for discussion, right? And it would be naive of all of us to think that everyone's going to agree with any given thing anyone posts. Let's hearken back to when Lys really, really wanted to help people by telling them how he picks up chicks and gets laid. It got old for some people and they started calling him on it, but if he'd simply gone about his business of picking up chicks and getting laid without trying to proselytize or brag or whatever he was doing, I doubt anyone would have ever had anything to say about it.
Quote from: Lysergic on February 06, 2010, 04:01:47 AM
I thought I'd share these with you guys as I've been practicing a lot of cold reading these days and have been thinking about incorporating it more into my act and turning it into a bit of "business" since so many people will easily believe this crap AND will HAPPILY pay for such services.
Just as an example. The thread is riddled with them, as are other threads. And then there was a lot of backpedaling.
Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.
I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 14, 2010, 06:09:53 PM
Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.
I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.
You're actually not any kind of a barometer at all for how other people feel about things. Doesn't bother you - fine. Someone else thinks it's bullshit, says so.
Also, you've defended things like magick and tarot in the past, have you not? I assume from this that you don't think it's entirely bullshit, which puts you in a different ethical category from someone who doesn't only think it's bullshit, but KNOWS it's bullshit, and misleads people for money consciously.
I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately, and I don't agree with the principle of dehumanizing people to make it feel OK to take advantage of their weaknesses and frailties. Lys, in what I see as backpedaling, argues that he wasn't doing that. I can quote phrases that definitely read that way, which he says were tongue in cheek. I say that I'm not very credulous of that right now but over time that may change. That's all.
Taking money from by people by getting them to believe things that may or may not be true is the root of all advertising, isn't it? One might say the advertising industry is the pinnacle of this trade.
I tend to look on the advertising industry with disgust, but only because the Machine that it has become doesn't care what gets caught in its gears. And that's really the main point:
Do you care at all if your actions lead to fucking people in the ass for petty profits? Or large profits? Will you convince people to consume poison so you can afford a third Bently? Or are you using the same techniques to sell certified good?
Almost everyone who runs a business has to advertise one way or another, and sometimes you have to bullshit people into buying your product even if it IS good, even if it does help them and you believe in it wholly.
It's all about intent.
Or what about photoshopping porn? Or beauty magazines?
Can you imagine someone doing that and cackling with laughter over the stupids who are gonna fap to some figment? Or is that person trying to make ends meet?
I didn't know JWs didn't believe in hell. Or if I did, I forgot. Which is odd, because one of my best friends at school, and a girl I had a MAJOR crush on were both JWs, and so I know loads of useless trivia about the religion.
Now I'm worried what else I've forgotten.
Also, this thread now at the stage of irreducible, duelling doxa. Srsly.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on February 14, 2010, 06:09:53 PM
Yeah, I grok what you're saying.. I just personally don't have a problem with it. Hell, if I thought I could make enough money to get by though tarot and cold readings I'd do it. Hell of a lot easier than sitting in a cubicle for 8 fucking hours a day while the Pinks try to rob us of every last grain of slack. So I'm gonna read the book linked and see if it tells me anything new.
I didn't have a problem with his How to pick up Girls ideas either, though... so maybe I'm not the best barometer.
You're actually not any kind of a barometer at all for how other people feel about things. Doesn't bother you - fine. Someone else thinks it's bullshit, says so.
Also, you've defended things like magick and tarot in the past, have you not? I assume from this that you don't think it's entirely bullshit, which puts you in a different ethical category from someone who doesn't only think it's bullshit, but KNOWS it's bullshit, and misleads people for money consciously.
I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately, and I don't agree with the principle of dehumanizing people to make it feel OK to take advantage of their weaknesses and frailties. Lys, in what I see as backpedaling, argues that he wasn't doing that. I can quote phrases that definitely read that way, which he says were tongue in cheek. I say that I'm not very credulous of that right now but over time that may change. That's all.
For me tarot etc are just mind toys... I don't think they have any super powers. And I'm cool with you voicing your opinion, I was just voicing mine as well.
Ethically speaking, I would prefer that 'psychics' havce Lys' point of view, rather than the view that its True. At least Lys knows he's personally responsible for what he tells the client... those people that think the Tarot is really really for realz gonna Tell Them Something are far more dangerous IMO.
Cain, CT Russell used to have headlines written about him in newspapers like "Pastor Russell Turns the Hose on Hell". Anti-Hell has been a JW standard belief since before they were called JW's.
Quote from: Alty on February 14, 2010, 06:34:53 PM
Taking money from by people by getting them to believe things that may or may not be true is the root of all advertising, isn't it? One might say the advertising industry is the pinnacle of this trade.
I tend to look on the advertising industry with disgust, but only because the Machine that it has become doesn't care what gets caught in its gears. And that's really the main point:
Do you care at all if your actions lead to fucking people in the ass for petty profits? Or large profits? Will you convince people to consume poison so you can afford a third Bently? Or are you using the same techniques to sell certified good?
Almost everyone who runs a business has to advertise one way or another, and sometimes you have to bullshit people into buying your product even if it IS good, even if it does help them and you believe in it wholly.
It's all about intent.
Or what about photoshopping porn? Or beauty magazines?
Can you imagine someone doing that and cackling with laughter over the stupids who are gonna fap to some figment? Or is that person trying to make ends meet?
I pretty much agree with all of this. Even (especially) the questions. And I appreciate the dialogue.
I advertise the shit out of my beads. A boss I had some time back told me "There are three fundamental elements in advertising. One: Show people your product. Two: Show why it's appealing/useful. Three: Tell them where they can get it. Anything more than that is wasted effort".
I completely agree with that guy. In a lot of cases, advertising is full of lies and shysterism and psychological manipulation... and in a lot of cases it isn't. Corporate advertising as an industry, I would say, is probably evil or borderline evil because of the pervasive psychological manipulation that permeates our entire culture. "You can't be happy without white teeth!"
On the other hand, Suu makes antique-style clothing for those festival thingies. Her advertising would be more like "Hey, if you are planning to go to that festival, I have this thing that will be fun to wear!"
Photoshopping porn makes prettier images (depending on your tastes). There are larger ethical ramifications to the entire porn industry that could be discussed at length, including the issue of making women look unnaturally "perfect" etc etc blah blah blah, but the porn photoshopper is pretty definitely not thinking about how they're making a living through deception... nor are they, in fact, being deceptive. The end buyer is paying for images. The photoshopper is doing a job in the assembly line of producing those images.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately
I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability. Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?
Quote from: FP on February 14, 2010, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately
I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability. Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?
I have no idea what the fuck either one of you is talking about. :|
Quote from: FP on February 14, 2010, 09:01:17 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
I'm pretty burned out on the whole elitist "us" (Really Real People) vs. "them" (stupid, cabbages, sheep, greyface, monkeys) thing that's gotten really popular lately
I agree with this, although I also think we've got a little way to evolve yet before this dynamic tribalism isn't an inevitability. Isn't it the intended target the behaviour patterns rather than the people who tend to exhibit them?
1. I'm not sure we'll ever really get there, but when we become aware of it, it's possible to at least back up off a bit.
2. Yes, IMO it is. And that ties into awareness, as well.
3. We all exhibit all of the above behaviors to varying degrees at times. Like whatever the hell that book is that I'm thinking of says, "Enlightenment is only good once." It's a continuing process.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2010, 09:03:12 PM
I have no idea what the fuck either one of you is talking about. :|
I'm not going to try to speak for Nigel. But to me, calling someone, or a group of people "sheep", is satisfying but doesn't address their behaviour or robotic responses in any positive way which is likely to elicit change. There have been more rants/riffs lately which don't discriminate between the actor and the action, and while it's not always desirable to precisely delineate between the two, the danger of becoming unbalanced in this regard is to get trapped in ones own rhetoric.
Quote from: FP on February 14, 2010, 09:17:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2010, 09:03:12 PM
I have no idea what the fuck either one of you is talking about. :|
I'm not going to try to speak for Nigel. But to me, calling someone, or a group of people "sheep", is satisfying but doesn't address their behaviour or robotic responses in any positive way which is likely to elicit change. There have been more rants/riffs lately which don't discriminate between the actor and the action, and while it's not always desirable to precisely delineate between the two, the danger of becoming unbalanced in this regard is to get trapped in ones own rhetoric.
Meh. I just find it grating. People won't change at all, so there's no point shrieking about it, or feeling superior about it.
But I don't distinguish between the actor and the action. Stupid things are done - at least on any consistent level - by stupid people. Asshole things are usually done by assholes. <--- I am an expert on this last one. Crooked things are usually done by crooked people. If that "traps me in my rhetoric", I'll just have to live with it.
On the other hand, I really, really don't like people, especially right now.
Ah - but you forget, Doktor Howl, I believe that the monkeys can be changed for the better. This is pretty much why I pined for the loss of the "one-sentence meme-bomb" thread.
Quote from: FP on February 14, 2010, 09:32:18 PM
Ah - but you forget, Doktor Howl, I believe that the monkeys can be changed for the better. This is pretty much why I pined for the loss of the "one-sentence meme-bomb" thread.
1. The thread is still there.
2. People haven't changed in 2 million years. While it is
possible that they will change, I am not holding my breath.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2010, 09:58:59 PM
2. People haven't changed in 2 million years. While it is possible that they will change, I am not holding my breath.
I pretty much agree, which is why I'm not proselytizing at you. It's a long shot for a short cut, but if the last few years of "The Devious Plot" project ever come to fruition, there may be an alternative to debate.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on February 14, 2010, 03:54:53 AM
And don't claim to respect me when the words you're typing reflect the opposite.
If I didn't respect you Nigel, I wouldn't have taken the time to write out a proper response trying to reason with you.
It seems though, you've made up your mind about what I've had to say about this all and it doesn't take the ability to read minds to know I'm not going to change your mind anytime soon, despite the fact that I truly feel that you judge me wrongly, and it hurts a little that it does but I'm not going to throw a tantrum about it, I'm trying to be as reasonable and respectful of what you say in the most mature way I can muster right now.
If I truly didn't have respect for you, I'd have called you a lot of nasty things would probably try and start a new thread trying to piss you off, and I'm sure I could easily find a lot of ways to start pushing your buttons if I were so inclined to disrespect you.
I'm sorry for equating your response to this having something to do with you not being well as of late, but I was just trying to figure out what the real beef here is.
Because no one else but you seems to think what I'm doing is "sociopathic", and that shit really hurts to hear, considering how many *real* sociopaths I've met who have hurt people I care about, I find it extremely insulting to know that's what you consider me.
In any case, think what you want, I don't feel guilty, I feel hurt, but not guilty, because I'm not a bad person. Eccentric, egotistical and an attention whore, yes, but a sociopath... give me a break.
Don't talk about "trying to reason with you", then, as that also comes across poorly. I have only addressed how your language strikes me. You do not seem interested in changing or defending your language, but rather in changing how I perceive it. I think there is a disconnect there. Maybe it can be remedied, maybe not.
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on February 12, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
Call me a cynic, but to me the world makes more sense if you stop making the distinction between these two.
People want to hear convenient stories that make them feel good and are willing to suspend disbelief for those stories to make sense.
Others are compelled to provide those stories.
You can be a sceptical consumer of those stories, knowing that what you are told is not true, but still like the entertainment. You do that when you go watch a stage magician or an SF movie.
You can be a believing consumer. You are that if you believe the fortune teller is really has magic powers.
You can be an exploitive provider. You tell lies just because you hope to profit from it.
You can be a believing provider. You really believe your stories to be true and will help people.
However, reality it is usually a grayzone between these extremes.
The SF movie makers are in it for the money, but they prefer to make something they can be proud of.
The fortune teller may be bullshitting you, but knows it is good for business if his actions really help people.
The politician may actually believe his own words, but knows he has to add some bullshit to spice things up.
The SF movie inspires you because you believe that SOME of what is shown COULD happen in the future.
The fortune made you fell better so you stop being sceptical.
The bullshit politician made people discuss, form groups and rally. This causes people to socialise, exchange ideas and feel purpose.
I used to really REALY hate this effect. If nothing anyone tells in public is bullshit-free and everyone is fine with self-deception then society can go fuck itself, right?
I guess I still fell like this a bit, but I see that there is no point in arguing with how evolution made us.
Quote from: SuperNull on May 21, 2010, 04:14:54 PM
Quote from: The Lord and Lady Omnibus Fuck on February 12, 2010, 12:59:50 AM
Are you capable of understanding the difference between a holy man who builds a congregation around his own belief that he has been granted sacred knowledge by God Himself, and a cult leader who claims to believe they have been granted sacred knowledge to build a congregation for personal gain?
Both may be wrong, but only one is unethical, by virtue of their insincerity.
Call me a cynic, but to me the world makes more sense if you stop making the distinction between these two.
People want to hear convenient stories that make them feel good and are willing to suspend disbelief for those stories to make sense.
Others are compelled to provide those stories.
You can be a sceptical consumer of those stories, knowing that what you are told is not true, but still like the entertainment. You do that when you go watch a stage magician or an SF movie.
You can be a believing consumer. You are that if you believe the fortune teller is really has magic powers.
You can be an exploitive provider. You tell lies just because you hope to profit from it.
You can be a believing provider. You really believe your stories to be true and will help people.
However, reality it is usually a grayzone between these extremes.
The SF movie makers are in it for the money, but they prefer to make something they can be proud of.
The fortune teller may be bullshitting you, but knows it is good for business if his actions really help people.
The politician may actually believe his own words, but knows he has to add some bullshit to spice things up.
The SF movie inspires you because you believe that SOME of what is shown COULD happen in the future.
The fortune made you fell better so you stop being sceptical.
The bullshit politician made people discuss, form groups and rally. This causes people to socialise, exchange ideas and feel purpose.
I used to really REALY hate this effect. If nothing anyone tells in public is bullshit-free and everyone is fine with self-deception then society can go fuck itself, right?
I guess I still fell like this a bit, but I see that there is no point in arguing with how evolution made us.
I like this new poster!
I was a telephone psychic for a month, did tarrot reading and everything, went to the class even got the cert. I had a typical call ratio of 45 minutes (people were paying 300 bucks at 5 bucks a minute to talk to me, I got 1.25 a minute) I assume most of em were hospice workers (think about it) or people living in other people's houses, yeah you can earn a lot of money doing it... but nothing would ever make me want to go back... talking to the most dim people on earth, 8+ hrs a day... I didnt care what they were paying any more, nothing was going to get me back on that phone with them, nothing... its like they were mind raping me and I had to pretend how excited I was about it.
Corporate Demonology ITT.