Title and link say it all. If there is not enough information in the title and the link to peak your interest, don't fucking click it, and don't bitch to me about it, either. I am going to a cafe and will be back later to rip on bad mothers, hippies, and anti-vaccination morons.
http://christopherfountain.com/2009/12/12/idiot-mother-feeds-her-kids-raw-milk-almost-kills-them-sues-whole-foods/
I mean, fucking duh.
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm
ughhhh Raw milk. Don't even NEED to click the link. :x
Oy! I honestly think people must not be aware of the risks associated with food. Nowadays, with it all cut up, vaccuum sealed and frozen people don't give a second thought to where it came from, or proper ways to handle it. I mean, food is such an important part of everyone's life, but we in this First World, are very ignorant about it.
My mom once tried to give unpasteurized carrot juice to the 100 year old lady she takes of. I was like "You know, that's probably not the best idea,"
and had to explain to her what unpasteurized meant. And my mom's a caregiver.
I'm still boggled by what kind of hippie shops at Whole foods.
Seriously. There is a reason the pasteurization process was invented. Honestly, if I am going to drink liquid that came from some cow's udder (and if that's not gross enough, think of what else it comes into contact with along the way), I WANT it to be pasteurized, or it's not getting touched with a ten foot pole. :vom:
I think people should have the choice for one or the other, but they really need to start learning about germ theory. It's been along time since 1862.
I have had fresh farm milk... but that was on Grandma's farm (also ate pig tail and other crazy stuff).
I LOVE non-homogenized milk, but I would never buy unpasteurized milk... that's just asking for it.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 02:36:41 PM
Title and link say it all. If there is not enough information in the title and the link to peak your interest, don't fucking click it, and don't bitch to me about it, either. I am going to a cafe and will be back later to rip on bad mothers, hippies, and anti-vaccination morons.
http://christopherfountain.com/2009/12/12/idiot-mother-feeds-her-kids-raw-milk-almost-kills-them-sues-whole-foods/
I mean, fucking duh.
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm
ETA Fuck damn interwebs ate my reply and the thread is moving too damn fast for my elderly brain to catch up . . .
Yeah it's one thing to eat that kind of stuff if you know EXACTLY where it's come from (i.e. you grew it, or know the person who did), but I'd NEVER walk into a store and pick up something like that. That's just asking to start bleeding out your eyeballs.
I don't need science to tell me hippies are morons.
I eat raw milk cheese. Is good.
If I start shitting my pants because of it, ain't nobody's fault but mine.
Quote from: Sparkley Pink Shit on March 17, 2010, 03:13:51 PM
Yeah it's one thing to eat that kind of stuff if you know EXACTLY where it's come from (i.e. you grew it, or know the person who did), but I'd NEVER walk into a store and pick up something like that. That's just asking to start bleeding out your eyeballs ASS.
Fixed. MICROBES, People. MICROBES. Such simple science, after all...but can do such complicated, NASTY things to us.
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 03:18:53 PM
I don't need science to tell me hippies are morons.
Why do you distrust science so much?
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 02:36:41 PM
I am going to a cafe and will be back later to rip on bad mothers, hippies, and anti-vaccination morons.
All worthy targets.
Last Christmas, we had a bit of a family reunion in Saskatchewan. During Christmas dinner, the topic drifted somehow to the topic of the H1N1 vaccine. My uncle started shooting his mouth off about how stupid it was to put those kind of "toxins" in your body when nobody really knows what they are, etc... He's well known for being a conspiracy theorist, and lately he hasn't been all that mentally stable.
It was bad enough, but here's the thing: my uncle was sitting directly across the table from my aunt.
Who is a public health nurse.
It took weeks to clean the blood off the walls.
Quote from: Remington on March 17, 2010, 03:49:27 PM
Last Christmas, we had a bit of a family reunion in Saskatchewan. During Christmas dinner, the topic drifted somehow to the topic of the H1N1 vaccine. My uncle started shooting his mouth off about how stupid it was to put those kind of "toxins" in your body when nobody really knows what they are, etc... He's well known for being a conspiracy theorist, and lately he hasn't been all that mentally stable.
It was bad enough, but here's the thing: my uncle was sitting directly across the table from my aunt.
Who is a public health nurse.
It took weeks to clean the blood off the walls.
That's victory, right there.
Did I mention that she had recently had a 1-yearold patient of hers die of totally preventable strep throat?
Solely because the kid's parents were anti-vax retards?
Yeah, she was pissed.
Quote from: Remington on March 17, 2010, 03:51:57 PM
Did I mention that she had recently had a 1-yearold patient of hers die of totally preventable strep throat?
Solely because the kid's parents were anti-vax retards?
There's a vax for strep throat? :?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: Remington on March 17, 2010, 03:51:57 PM
Did I mention that she had recently had a 1-yearold patient of hers die of totally preventable strep throat?
Solely because the kid's parents were anti-vax retards?
There's a vax for strep throat? :?
I seem to remember her saying it was strep throat, although I'm not 100% sure.
Quote from: Remington on March 17, 2010, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: Remington on March 17, 2010, 03:51:57 PM
Did I mention that she had recently had a 1-yearold patient of hers die of totally preventable strep throat?
Solely because the kid's parents were anti-vax retards?
There's a vax for strep throat? :?
I seem to remember her saying it was strep throat, although I'm not 100% sure.
Think you might be confused. Strep is a bacteria, not a virus.
I might be totally wrong about the vax thing, though. I'm not that kind of Doktor.
Anti-vax stupidity normally bleeds over into general medical stupidity anyway, so even if there wasn't a vaccination involved, its still entirely possible they did something dumb, like aromatherapy, in order to "cure" the kid.
there are SOME vaccines that you dont need unless you are already unhealthy...like flu
Iatrogenic disease kills just as efficiently as any other . . .
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
Anti-vax stupidity normally bleeds over into general medical stupidity anyway, so even if there wasn't a vaccination involved, its still entirely possible they did something dumb, like aromatherapy, in order to "cure" the kid.
This.
Also, I drink homemade carrot juice which is, of course, not pasteurized. But I drink it immediately after making it. I've had raw milk; I used to milk the cow it came from. I'd love to have goats for milk. The difference is that these are things I'm handling and storing myself, and are not sitting on a cooler shelf for any length of time for bacteria to multiply in them.
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults. Remember when milk allergy/intolerance was all the rage? Frankly, I have a lot more tolerance for that viewpoint because at least it has, you know, some scientific validity.
I think the problem with a lot of hippies is that they only pay attention to documents (I'm not going to go so far as to call it research) that support what they want to believe, whether those documents are supported by (non-anecdotal) evidence or not.
Like the anti-vaccers. They still choose to believe, even though the link between vaccination and autism has been disproved so hard Jenny McCarthy's head is still spinning from the bitch slap.
There are still people who believe that aluminum salt in anti-perspirant causes Alzheimer's, even though that theory was disproven almost as fast as it was made.
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Fucking hippies live in a la-la land where everything bad is avoidable through
believing hard enough in convenient lies.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults.
I've had a doctor tell me that. :?
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
Anti-vax stupidity normally bleeds over into general medical stupidity anyway, so even if there wasn't a vaccination involved, its still entirely possible they did something dumb, like aromatherapy, in order to "cure" the kid.
This.
Also, I drink homemade carrot juice which is, of course, not pasteurized. But I drink it immediately after making it. I've had raw milk; I used to milk the cow it came from. I'd love to have goats for milk. The difference is that these are things I'm handling and storing myself, and are not sitting on a cooler shelf for any length of time for bacteria to multiply in them.
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults. Remember when milk allergy/intolerance was all the rage? Frankly, I have a lot more tolerance for that viewpoint because at least it has, you know, some scientific validity.
I think the problem with a lot of hippies is that they only pay attention to documents (I'm not going to go so far as to call it research) that support what they want to believe, whether those documents are supported by (non-anecdotal) evidence or not.
Like the anti-vaccers. They still choose to believe, even though the link between vaccination and autism has been disproved so hard Jenny McCarthy's head is still spinning from the bitch slap.
There are still people who believe that aluminum salt in anti-perspirant causes Alzheimer's, even though that theory was disproven almost as fast as it was made.
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Fucking hippies live in a la-la land where everything bad is avoidable through believing hard enough in convenient lies.
Most anti-vacc people I've interacted with are conservatives and often fundamentalists. The pro-natural group seem to be Liberals around here, more than Hippies specifically ... the Hippies refuse to shop at Whole Foods and instead want to shop at the little Mom and Pop stores that sell organic toilet paper and E-coli added milk (with the putrid green cap so you can be sure to get the right one!) :lulz:
Humans almost always seem willing to accept the beliefs that fit their narrative. If their narrative is that the EVIL PEOPLE are gonna destroy our Life/Country/Planet with vaccines, unnatural milk, fluoride, Universal Healthcare, Oil, Jeebus, Marijuana, Alcohol, Homosexuals, Islamofascists, or the Xists... then they'll swallow wholesale the data that fits their narrative and ignore the rest of the data.
It's not Hippies, its humans, humans stuck in their poor little Black Iron Prisons, peeking through bars that block their view of anything except the reality they believe in.
PS - I may get called a Hippie, but I'm not THAT kind of hippie ;-)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults.
I've had a doctor tell me that. :?
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults. Remember when milk allergy/intolerance was all the rage? Frankly, I have a lot more tolerance for that viewpoint because at least it has, you know, some scientific validity.
It's also not "natural" to grind wheat into flour to make bread, or to, you know, cook anything.
Of course, people who come from regions where their ancestors have been doing it for a long time seem to have adapted.
I'm not actually against raw milk. I am a pretty big fan of raw foods and the beneficial bacteria (and in milk's case, white blood cells) therein. But I've read a lot of the pro-raw-milk propaganda (almost entirely written by dairy farmers who sell raw milk, BTW) and tried to find any non-anecdotal "I knew a guy" data to support it, and couldn't. Even the hippie farmers (real hippies, not the effete, diluted hippie-lifestyle trust fund babies of today) who were my best friend's parents knew to heat any milk they weren't using right away so it could be safely stored in the fridge. When I was a kid, raw milk was banned in stores because a lot of kids got sick from it. It has some benefits (which can be gotten fairly easily by eating other foods) but it's hardly a miracle product and there's nothing wrong with pasteurized milk, at all, so voluntarily seeking out the increased risks of raw milk for no particular benefit is just another example of stupidity combined with wishful thinking.
People who cant do a simple cost/benefit analysis exasperate the shit out of me.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:09:48 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults.
I've had a doctor tell me that. :?
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
What's really funny is that a lot of these people are the same dumbfucks who, ten years ago, didn't drink milk because it's "not natural" for adults. Remember when milk allergy/intolerance was all the rage? Frankly, I have a lot more tolerance for that viewpoint because at least it has, you know, some scientific validity.
It's also not "natural" to grind wheat into flour to make bread, or to, you know, cook anything.
Of course, people who come from regions where their ancestors have been doing it for a long time seem to have adapted.
This doctor didn't tell me milk (in general) was particularly BAD for you, just unnecessary, adults having different dietary requirements than infants, and that
some adults have problems with lactose.
So I get my calcium and vitamin D from pills. Because I'm all science fictiony. pillspillspills.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
Or that any obscure problem is now a pandemic.
I have a good friend named Yash, who I see at the Gym every day. Nice old Indian (Asian) guy, retired engineer. He has never eaten meat in his life. He is, however, full of dire warnings about how bad meat is for you, and how it's all full of "chemicals".
I don't bother arguing with him, as this is a belief system of his, not misinformation he's received.
HA! This is funnier than all those people who got sick from eating raw spinach and tomatoes a while back.
Jerry_Frankster,
Boils his salad
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on March 17, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
HA! This is funnier than all those people who got sick from eating raw spinach and tomatoes a while back.
Jerry_Frankster,
Boils his salad
The difference between something like unpasteurized milk and raw vegetables is that raw vegetables are not
normally a highly perishable growth medium for poisonous bacteria. Your comment is like drawing a parallel between unpasteurized mayonnaise and that one time all those people got e. coli from mishandled cantaloupe at Sizzler.
ie, stupid.
That article was :x
And this thread has made me remember that my cousin is, well, not TOTALLY an anti-vaccine moron, but she believed the hype about it causing autism, and wouldn't get her kids vaccinated until after they were a certain age, and wouldn't get them all done after that. :sad:
Quote from: Professor Freeky on March 17, 2010, 06:12:09 PM
That article was :x
And this thread has made me remember that my cousin is, well, not TOTALLY an anti-vaccine moron, but she believed the hype about it causing autism, and wouldn't get her kids vaccinated until after they were a certain age, and wouldn't get them all done after that. :sad:
That jackass who faked his data should be prosecuted for every measles death in England. IMO.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:13:41 PM
Quote from: Professor Freeky on March 17, 2010, 06:12:09 PM
That article was :x
And this thread has made me remember that my cousin is, well, not TOTALLY an anti-vaccine moron, but she believed the hype about it causing autism, and wouldn't get her kids vaccinated until after they were a certain age, and wouldn't get them all done after that. :sad:
That jackass who faked his data should be prosecuted for every measles death in England. IMO.
Yes.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Can you post a link for that? I have a few people that need to STFU about "GLUTEN BAD FOR EVERYONE UNNG", and your post is the best news I've heard all morning.
I swear to God, ECH, these health fad Nazis are the fucking worst.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:13:41 PM
Quote from: Professor Freeky on March 17, 2010, 06:12:09 PM
That article was :x
And this thread has made me remember that my cousin is, well, not TOTALLY an anti-vaccine moron, but she believed the hype about it causing autism, and wouldn't get her kids vaccinated until after they were a certain age, and wouldn't get them all done after that. :sad:
That jackass who faked his data should be prosecuted for every measles death in England. IMO.
That is a great rhetorical point you have there - the only problem is that there hadn't been a single measles death between 1992 and 2006 - and the 2006 case . . . you couldn't really blame it on Andrew Wakefield's 1998
"MMR may be linked to autism" paper, no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814
Edited because punctuation really really matters kids . . .
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
Anti-vax stupidity normally bleeds over into general medical stupidity anyway, so even if there wasn't a vaccination involved, its still entirely possible they did something dumb, like aromatherapy, in order to "cure" the kid.
This.
Also, I drink homemade carrot juice which is, of course, not pasteurized. But I drink it immediately after making it. I've had raw milk; I used to milk the cow it came from. I'd love to have goats for milk. The difference is that these are things I'm handling and storing myself, and are not sitting on a cooler shelf for any length of time for bacteria to multiply in them.
This. Also, another difference is that while a perfectly healthy adult could get away with drinking unpasteurized stuff, children, elderly, and the immunodeficient shouldn't.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Alright, you sound like you've done your homework. Can I ask you a question?
Chloe has been told that she has Celiac's, as a result of some stomach problems she had as a kid. When she became a teenager, the symptoms went away. They told her that teenagers often don't have any noticeable symptoms even though gluten is still toxic to them. What little I've read on the web seems to support that some people are asymptomatic, and the damage may be subtly affecting their bowels or stomach.
So a few years back, (post teenager now) she decided that it was mind over matter and began eating gluten again. Nothing bad happened to her, at least visibly. Is it possible that this is actually giving her stomach cancer? Should I be talking her out of eating bagels and beer?
Properly handled raw milk is no more dangerous that properly handled raw eggs.
That is, a small percentage will have something nasty in it, and a smaller percentage of people will get sick from it, and an even smaller number of people will get really sick from it, and an even smaller number of people will die from it.
LMNO
-Pisco sour, anyone?
Is there anyone on PD.com who doesn't know someone with Coeliac's disease? I was under the impression it was fairly rare, from a friend I know who suffers from it, but it seems like everyone knows someone with it. Are we sure they're not all the same person?
I know a couple of people, but I think it's like autism and all those other things that seem so suddenly full of stats...the diagnosis has gotten better, so people who were thought to be picky eaters or whatever have come to be diagnosed with it because the factors that contribute are tighter and more recognizable.
I know at least one person who claims to have it, but their dietary habits are so fucked up, I can't tell if they are just nutritionally retarded, and will eventually get scurvy.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:53:14 PM
Quote from: Jerry_Frankster on March 17, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
HA! This is funnier than all those people who got sick from eating raw spinach and tomatoes a while back.
Jerry_Frankster,
Boils his salad
The difference between something like unpasteurized milk and raw vegetables is that raw vegetables are not normally a highly perishable growth medium for poisonous bacteria. Your comment is like drawing a parallel between unpasteurized mayonnaise and that one time all those people got e. coli from mishandled cantaloupe at Sizzler.
ie, stupid.
Fair enough. It was meant to be hyperbole anyway.
The similarity between the two, as you said in your comment about making carrot juice and getting milk from your own cow is that of improper handling. Even pasteurized milk can be dangerous if it is handled improperly. Pasteurization just reduces the risk caused by shipping the milk of a hundred or more cows across the country in a tanker truck. If people are handling unpasteurized milk the same as pasteurized milk, then they can expect to get sick.
Also, this
is one case where some people got sick from mishandled raw milk from Whole Foods.
So basically,
Drinking raw milk because you like raw milk = not stupid
Drinking raw milk because ZOMG!! CONSPIRACY!!! (http://douglassreport.com/reports/raw-milk/?gclid=CK6BiKq5wKACFclg2god1yt8Tw) = stupid
Anything that stems from ZOMG CONSPIRACY tends to be stupid.
Or at least thats what they WANT you to think!
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 07:20:04 PM
Anything that stems from ZOMG CONSPIRACY tends to be stupid.
Or at least thats what they WANT you to think!
:tinfoilhat: Tinfoil hats are supposed to be made of TIN
not Aluminum! :tinfoilhat:
:tinfoilhat: It's all a conspiracy by the Aluminum companies to give conspiracy theorists Alzheimer's!!! :tinfoilhat:
Quote from: Cramulus on March 17, 2010, 06:50:32 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Alright, you sound like you've done your homework. Can I ask you a question?
Chloe has been told that she has Celiac's, as a result of some stomach problems she had as a kid. When she became a teenager, the symptoms went away. They told her that teenagers often don't have any noticeable symptoms even though gluten is still toxic to them. What little I've read on the web seems to support that some people are asymptomatic, and the damage may be subtly affecting their bowels or stomach.
So a few years back, (post teenager now) she decided that it was mind over matter and began eating gluten again. Nothing bad happened to her, at least visibly. Is it possible that this is actually giving her stomach cancer? Should I be talking her out of eating bagels and beer?
Gluten allergies can disappear/reappear over time, AFAIK celiac's is genetic so it won't ever go away, even if symptoms subside at some point. Introducing gluten into the digestive tract of a celiac's sufferer affects the way the digestive tract breaks down food and absorbs nutrients. Eating something gluten-laden just once can prevent proper nutrient absorption for several days afterward. Constantly eating gluten-containing foods will lead to constant low-level malnourishment in the best of cases. If symptoms reappear (and this can be sudden and after prolonged periods of being asymptomatic), you may end up having to make a run to the ER for emergency rehydration due to uncontrollable vomiting and/or diarrhea. As for long-term effects, if someone has a gluten allergy and doesn't go one a gluten-free diet, there's a pretty good chance they'll die a gruesome death from some rare and fucked-up stomach/intestinal cancer. If they have celiacs and don't go on a gluten-free diet, it's just about guaranteed.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:39:55 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 17, 2010, 06:50:32 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 05:13:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Then there's naturopathy and the current (multibillion-dollar industry) "gluten allergy" craze... well, 'nuff said.
Oh, goddammit. My aunt really DOES have a problem with Gluten, so I never hear the end of this shit from my mother, who is ALL ABOUT every medical fad that comes down the line (and she's a goddamn trained scientist). Even as a teenager, I have never been rude to my mother in my life, but I finally blew up when she interrupted some work I was doing to tell me what "Dr Oz" just said about whatever the hell he was babbling about this week.
I can't stand that shit. Serious as hell. It's fucking worse than when she was a devotee of John Edwards, and wouldn't listen to her training, me, my father, or anyone else who pointed out his rather clumsy cold reading technique.
What kills me is that she's a smart person, who in this one respect acts dumb.
Yeah, I have a friend with Celiac disease, which will kill him if he eats wheat.
And my mom actually IS lactose intolerant, badly.
What I have a problem with is the health fad industry that springs up around this crap.
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Alright, you sound like you've done your homework. Can I ask you a question?
Chloe has been told that she has Celiac's, as a result of some stomach problems she had as a kid. When she became a teenager, the symptoms went away. They told her that teenagers often don't have any noticeable symptoms even though gluten is still toxic to them. What little I've read on the web seems to support that some people are asymptomatic, and the damage may be subtly affecting their bowels or stomach.
So a few years back, (post teenager now) she decided that it was mind over matter and began eating gluten again. Nothing bad happened to her, at least visibly. Is it possible that this is actually giving her stomach cancer? Should I be talking her out of eating bagels and beer?
Gluten allergies can disappear/reappear over time, AFAIK celiac's is genetic so it won't ever go away, even if symptoms subside at some point. Introducing gluten into the digestive tract of a celiac's sufferer affects the way the digestive tract breaks down food and absorbs nutrients. Eating something gluten-laden just once can prevent proper nutrient absorption for several days afterward. Constantly eating gluten-containing foods will lead to constant low-level malnourishment in the best of cases. If symptoms reappear (and this can be sudden and after prolonged periods of being asymptomatic), you may end up having to make a run to the ER for emergency rehydration due to uncontrollable vomiting and/or diarrhea. As for long-term effects, if someone has a gluten allergy and doesn't go one a gluten-free diet, there's a pretty good chance they'll die a gruesome death from some rare and fucked-up stomach/intestinal cancer. If they have celiacs and don't go on a gluten-free diet, it's just about guaranteed.
DAMN.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Can you post a link for that? I have a few people that need to STFU about "GLUTEN BAD FOR EVERYONE UNNG", and your post is the best news I've heard all morning.
I swear to God, ECH, these health fad Nazis are the fucking worst.
I'll dig around. I've read so much on the subject at this point that pinpointing a source may take a bit and have to wait until tonight when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure I can find you something.
For what it's worth, my parents refused to get me immunized during the panic.
This is largely because they were told that it would only protect up until 13 or so. Mumps isn't terribly dangerous until adolescence, when it can cause sterilization, and it is best to get measles out of the way early too. They would have gotten me the Rubella jab, but the doctor wouldn't give it separately.
The doctor in question also claimed that the reason there seems to be a correlation is that the tests to determine autism are run in rapid succession. If they'd change the time they do the testing, or give the jab, they'd get rid of the correlation.
Obviously, this is all second hand, but that's how my parent's reasoning was explained to me.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:42:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Can you post a link for that? I have a few people that need to STFU about "GLUTEN BAD FOR EVERYONE UNNG", and your post is the best news I've heard all morning.
I swear to God, ECH, these health fad Nazis are the fucking worst.
I'll dig around. I've read so much on the subject at this point that pinpointing a source may take a bit and have to wait until tonight when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure I can find you something.
Thanks, no hurry. This sort of ownage is best served in a leisurely fashion, anyway.
also, there's now a reliable test for whether or not someone has a gluten allergy. Celiac diagnosis is more difficult. It's usually extrapolated from how symptoms present themselves, though you can always have a camera shoved up your butthole if you want to be 100% sure, as celiacs can be definitively diagnosed based on differences in the intestinal lining. There's probably a genetic test available as well, but I imagine that would be prohibitively expensive for most of us.
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
sorry to threadjack from the original topic, Nigel. Cram's question gave me a rare opportunity to put everything I've learned on a fairly obscure subject to good use and I ran with it.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:47:10 PM
also, there's now a reliable test for whether or not someone has a gluten allergy. Celiac diagnosis is more difficult. It's usually extrapolated from how symptoms present themselves, though you can always have a camera shoved up your butthole if you want to be 100% sure, as celiacs can be definitively diagnosed based on differences in the intestinal lining. There's probably a genetic test available as well, but I imagine that would be prohibitively expensive for most of us.
Okay.
Because according to my mother and her hippie friends, the test is "are you a human being"?
:crankey:
not only can hormones be added to milk but good things like antibodies can be as well...
:milk:
it was confirmed that bovine colostrum has effect to weaken allergic reaction
and to strengthen organism protection function, and that it has bactericidal effect on specific bacteria.
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200414/000020041404A0468351.php
they couldn't come up with a more appetizing-sounding name for it than "bovine colostrum"? :horrormirth:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
That's why its called the 'practice' of medicine...
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:18:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
That's why its called the 'practice' of medicine...
According to MMIX's post, the medicine part wasn't the problem. The "homeopathic" part was.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:18:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
That's why its called the 'practice' of medicine...
According to MMIX's post, the medicine part wasn't the problem. The "homeopathic" part was.
I must have misread that, I thought MMIX said that the Father in Law got sick from kids that had been given the MMR shot.
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:27:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:18:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
That's why its called the 'practice' of medicine...
According to MMIX's post, the medicine part wasn't the problem. The "homeopathic" part was.
I must have misread that, I thought MMIX said that the Father in Law got sick from kids that had been given the MMR shot.
No, I misread it.
But I think the docs were full of shit on that one.
My best friend gets asked to go back on the prozac. Best friend refuses. Best friend goes to see homeopathist. 2 days later I tell her that she might as well just meditate in the corner with a bunch of pet rocks, cos all you are getting is placebo effect. I advise friend with long term depression issue that she might as well go to a Herbalist, a proper recognised qualified practitioner, citing salycilic acid and St Johns Wort as examples that have been used and that have more effect than the fancy diluted water that you get from Homeopathy. I myself have decided that if I have sleep issues after my meds are weaned out that I will be grabbing the valerian if I am having issues with my sleep. said friend also persists in all the hippy food myth bullshit.
Quote from: Rainy Day Pixie on March 17, 2010, 08:36:07 PM
My best friend gets asked to go back on the prozac. Best friend refuses. Best friend goes to see homeopathist. 2 days later I tell her that she might as well just meditate in the corner with a bunch of pet rocks, cos all you are getting is placebo effect. I advise friend with long term depression issue that she might as well go to a Herbalist, a proper recognised qualified practitioner, citing salycilic acid and St Johns Wort as examples that have been used and that have more effect than the fancy diluted water that you get from Homeopathy. I myself have decided that if I have sleep issues after my meds are weaned out that I will be grabbing the valerian if I am having issues with my sleep. said friend also persists in all the hippy food myth bullshit.
:x
Medical practice = eventually you get it right and you don't have to "bury you mistakes" /cynic.
My kids got Measles Mumps and Rubella because they were unable to have MMR and my father-in-law almost died because his childrens did have the MMR. And they were the only possible source of his infection because he had been laid up at home with a bad back and had not been in contact with anyone else. And the kids had been told to stay away from him because of the statistically very unlikely chance that they would infect him.
And on that point "statistics" are all very well but I cannot imagine anything more poignant than the grief of parents whose children have been damaged or even killed by their actions or inactions. A death rate of 0.0001% is actually 100% of everything if you are the one who dies. Huge amounts of supposedly "reputable information" are thrown at modern parents who then have to make value judgements on them. Since many people have trouble choosing which film to see or what colour tie to wear to the office it is hardly surprising that some people make bad decisions.
Yes it sounds idealistic, but I have few illusions about the medical profession, having worked in the NHS, and having doctors and nurses in the family. They do make mistakes, they do bury their mistakes, today's wonderdrug can easily turn into tomorrows thalidomide. Its like everything else, If you are looking for easy answers you are wasting your time and my oxygen . . .
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
...the anti-vaccers. They still choose to believe, even though the link between vaccination and autism has been disproved so hard Jenny McCarthy's head is still spinning from the bitch slap...
just wait until they switch from mercury based injections to gold based air compressor :lulz:
sign up for their news articles :horrormirth:
ANYWAYS
QuoteImagine getting a flu vaccine without being injected with a needle and without experiencing pain. PowderMed, a biotech firm in Oxford, England, is making this happen. The firm will soon begin Phase 2 clinical trials of a DNA-based vaccine that can be administered by DNA-coated gold particles propelled into the skin via high-pressure helium. The system is known as Particle Mediated Epidermal Delivery.
Quote from: Pēleus on March 17, 2010, 09:11:07 PM
sign up for their news articles :horrormirth:
ANYWAYS
QuoteImagine getting a flu vaccine without being injected with a needle and without experiencing pain. PowderMed, a biotech firm in Oxford, England, is making this happen. The firm will soon begin Phase 2 clinical trials of a DNA-based vaccine that can be administered by DNA-coated gold particles propelled into the skin via high-pressure helium. The system is known as Particle Mediated Epidermal Delivery.
What? That sounds painful! :x
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:57:36 PM
Medical practice = eventually you get it right and you don't have to "bury you mistakes" /cynic.
My kids got Measles Mumps and Rubella because they were unable to have MMR and my father-in-law almost died because his childrens did have the MMR. And they were the only possible source of his infection because he had been laid up at home with a bad back and had not been in contact with anyone else. And the kids had been told to stay away from him because of the statistically very unlikely chance that they would infect him.
And on that point "statistics" are all very well but I cannot imagine anything more poignant than the grief of parents whose children have been damaged or even killed by their actions or inactions. A death rate of 0.0001% is actually 100% of everything if you are the one who dies. Huge amounts of supposedly "reputable information" are thrown at modern parents who then have to make value judgements on them. Since many people have trouble choosing which film to see or what colour tie to wear to the office it is hardly surprising that some people make bad decisions.
Yes it sounds idealistic, but I have few illusions about the medical profession, having worked in the NHS, and having doctors and nurses in the family. They do make mistakes, they do bury their mistakes, today's wonderdrug can easily turn into tomorrows thalidomide. Its like everything else, If you are looking for easy answers you are wasting your time and my oxygen . . .
Can you rephrase this in comprehensible english? Cause in your first paragraph alone it looks like you're saying at least two directly contradictory things in one sentence.
the report on, i think it was, bbc world news showing an example...
since the skin isnt actually broken, the air presses pass it... no pain
also since they dont break the skin,
they dont have to wory about
giving everyone AIDs from mass injections
Quote from: BADGE OF HONOR on March 17, 2010, 09:20:24 PM
Can you rephrase this in comprehensible english? Cause in your first paragraph alone it looks like you're saying at least two directly contradictory things in one sentence.
I'll try
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:57:36 PM
[ref Rat's cynical joke] Medical practice = [if you practice enough] eventually you get it right and you won't have to "bury you mistakes" /cynic.
My kids got Measles Mumps and Rubella because they were unable to have MMR. [the fact that the homeopathic alternative did not work is just an aside has no real bearing on the fact that they got these diseases because they were exposed to them and they could not have the MMR because of their medical histories]
My father-in-law almost died because his children were vaccinated against MMR. And they were the only possible source of his infection because he had been laid up at home with a bad back and had not been in contact with anyone else. And the kids had been told to stay away from him because of the statistically very unlikely chance that they would infect him but didn't take the warning seriously enough.
And on that point "statistics" are all very well but I cannot imagine anything more poignant than the grief of parents whose children have been damaged or even killed by their actions or inactions. A death rate of 0.0001% is actually 100% of everything if you are the one who dies. Huge amounts of supposedly "reputable information" are thrown at modern parents who then have to make value judgements on them. Since many people have trouble choosing which film to see or what colour tie to wear to the office it is hardly surprising that some people make bad medical decisions.
Yes it sounds idealistic, but I have few illusions about the medical profession, having worked in the NHS, and having doctors and nurses in my family. They do make mistakes, they do bury their mistakes; today's wonderdrug can easily turn into tomorrows thalidomide. Its like everything else, if you are looking for easy answers you are wasting your time and my oxygen . . .
better???
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 06:54:30 PM
Is there anyone on PD.com who doesn't know someone with Coeliac's disease? I was under the impression it was fairly rare, from a friend I know who suffers from it, but it seems like everyone knows someone with it. Are we sure they're not all the same person?
oooh ooh! I don't! All my friends are differently disordered! :D
also I'm gonna need a pisco sour recipe please?
Quote from: Triple Zero on March 17, 2010, 10:07:34 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 06:54:30 PM
Is there anyone on PD.com who doesn't know someone with Coeliac's disease? I was under the impression it was fairly rare, from a friend I know who suffers from it, but it seems like everyone knows someone with it. Are we sure they're not all the same person?
oooh ooh! I don't! All my friends are differently disordered! :D
Me either! :D
Quote from: Nast on March 17, 2010, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 17, 2010, 03:56:56 PM
Anti-vax stupidity normally bleeds over into general medical stupidity anyway, so even if there wasn't a vaccination involved, its still entirely possible they did something dumb, like aromatherapy, in order to "cure" the kid.
This.
Also, I drink homemade carrot juice which is, of course, not pasteurized. But I drink it immediately after making it. I've had raw milk; I used to milk the cow it came from. I'd love to have goats for milk. The difference is that these are things I'm handling and storing myself, and are not sitting on a cooler shelf for any length of time for bacteria to multiply in them.
This. Also, another difference is that while a perfectly healthy adult could get away with drinking unpasteurized stuff, children, elderly, and the immunodeficient shouldn't.
This is a really good point. As a healthy adult, I take risks I would never subject my kids to, including eating a lot of raw meat and fish at home.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:49:39 PM
sorry to threadjack from the original topic, Nigel. Cram's question gave me a rare opportunity to put everything I've learned on a fairly obscure subject to good use and I ran with it.
Not a problem! I am interested in research about pretty much every annoying dietary fad, and the reality behind them.
Quote from: Pēleus on March 17, 2010, 07:54:42 PM
not only can hormones be added to milk but good things like antibodies can be as well...
:milk:
it was confirmed that bovine colostrum has effect to weaken allergic reaction
and to strengthen organism protection function, and that it has bactericidal effect on specific bacteria.
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200414/000020041404A0468351.php
Good luck finding raw bovine colostrum for sale...
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 08:29:00 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:27:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on March 17, 2010, 08:18:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:49:15 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 06:43:00 PM
MMR may be linked to autism paper no matter how alarmist and badly researched it was.
Righteo. Keep on believin'.
WTF!!! My bad, I changed the punctuation to make my meaning clearer. My original observation stands, however; check the data. If you go round making easily disprovable claims [ e.g. kids died because of the MMR scandal] in some way you are walking in lockstep with the prats who believed that kids became autistic because of the MMR vaccine.
I had my facts screwed up...there were 2 deaths in the USA, and the one in the UK was due to indigence, not the MMR screamers.
However, there WAS a spike in cases, as seen here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/134968.php
I'll settle for the bastard getting hit with an attempted murder charge on each additional incident.
Or a class action on behalf of kids with damaged sight, or hearing etc, which can be causally linked to the Wakefield case. However, the MMR vaccine has a longer history of causing concern. My kids were not MMR'd back in the late 70's early 80's because of a family history of epilepsy, and we ended up with . . . . . . . . . . .
a homeopathic alternative - yes I did say homeopathic, no it didn't work. We ended up with the kids all getting mumps AND measles AND rubella.
My late father in law nearly died because of the MMR during an epidemic when his 5 kids were little. They all got MMR's and the doctors said his developing Mumps was a result of being exposed to his kids!!! It developed into Mumps encephalitis and nearly died . . . kind of ironic
That's why its called the 'practice' of medicine...
According to MMIX's post, the medicine part wasn't the problem. The "homeopathic" part was.
I must have misread that, I thought MMIX said that the Father in Law got sick from kids that had been given the MMR shot.
No, I misread it.
But I think the docs were full of shit on that one.
Back in the day when they used a live virus, it made the kids temporarily contagious to non-immunized adults. It was also a more effective vaccine, but had a higher risk of developing into a (slightly milder) full case of mumps. A much lower risk than is inherent in not being immunized at all, though.
One of the problems with the anti-vaccine crowd is that they often hold off vaccinating until kids are older, which means that they leave their kids unprotected during the time period when mumps, measles, or rubella are most likely to be fatal. I am not especially worried about my six-year-old getting measles, but had she contracted it when she was two it would have likely put her in the hospital
which is, of course, why I had her vaccinated.
There's just no good logic behind the MMR vaccine scare, and a lot of bad logic.
Quote from: Pēleus on March 17, 2010, 09:24:02 PM
the report on, i think it was, bbc world news showing an example...
since the skin isnt actually broken, the air presses pass it... no pain
also since they dont break the skin,
they dont have to wory about
giving everyone AIDs from mass injections
You mean,
"They don't have to worry about the massive number of disposable needles going to landfills in order to not give everyone AIDS from mass injections"
Also, there is no such thing as mercury-based vaccinations, to address an earlier post.
Nigel said
QuoteGood luck finding raw bovine colostrum for sale...
Don't forget that luck can be good or bad . . .
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/09/articles/lawyer-oped/comparing-the-food-safety-record-of-pasteurized-and-raw-milk-products-part-2/
QuoteRaw Bovine Colostrum
Colostrum is the "first milk" produced by the mammary gland of an animal after giving birth. Consumption of raw bovine colostrum appears to be increasing in popularity among raw milk drinkers, and has been associated with two recent foodborne disease outbreaks in California (CDC 2008; CDPH 2008). Unlike raw milk, raw bovine colostrum is regulated as a nutritional supplement. A recent survey of dairies in Pennsylvania by Houser et al (2008) found Salmonella in 15% of the colostrum samples; the mean standard plate counts (SPC) and coliforms were very high: 977,539 CFU/ml and 323,372 CFU/ml, respectively (see Oliver et al, 2009, for a broader discussion of sanitation standards). It was not specified in the paper if these dairies surveyed in Pennsylvania sold raw bovine colostrum for human consumption. Additional surveys are needed to study foodborne pathogens and sanitary standards in raw bovine colostrum from dairies that market the product as a nutritional supplement for humans.
also it seems to be horrifically easy to find
@Nigel - I got measles when I was 5 and apparently I "nearly died" whatever that means. I developed otitis media as a complication and they thought my hearing might be permanently affected. I was lucky and it wasn't - my partner had her eyes affected and she has been left with permanent light sensitivity.
Everyone reacts slightly differently, has a slightly different health status at the point of infection, reacts slightly differently to medication, bedrest etc etc etc. I'm not suggesting that you have to re-invent the wheel for every case but there is an element of "butterfly wing flapping" that applies to all issues relating to a complex organism like a person.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/200px-Punkrocker-1.jpg)
I wish I was a punkrocker with flowers in my hair . . . yeah, that was my generation
MMIX staring down the barrel at 60 glorious years
i went deaf for 2 months when i was 2 because of a reaction to a vaccine, BUT I GOT BETTER!!!!!!
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 10:25:19 PM
Nigel said
QuoteGood luck finding raw bovine colostrum for sale...
Don't forget that luck can be good or bad . . .
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/09/articles/lawyer-oped/comparing-the-food-safety-record-of-pasteurized-and-raw-milk-products-part-2/
QuoteRaw Bovine Colostrum
Colostrum is the "first milk" produced by the mammary gland of an animal after giving birth. Consumption of raw bovine colostrum appears to be increasing in popularity among raw milk drinkers, and has been associated with two recent foodborne disease outbreaks in California (CDC 2008; CDPH 2008). Unlike raw milk, raw bovine colostrum is regulated as a nutritional supplement. A recent survey of dairies in Pennsylvania by Houser et al (2008) found Salmonella in 15% of the colostrum samples; the mean standard plate counts (SPC) and coliforms were very high: 977,539 CFU/ml and 323,372 CFU/ml, respectively (see Oliver et al, 2009, for a broader discussion of sanitation standards). It was not specified in the paper if these dairies surveyed in Pennsylvania sold raw bovine colostrum for human consumption. Additional surveys are needed to study foodborne pathogens and sanitary standards in raw bovine colostrum from dairies that market the product as a nutritional supplement for humans.
also it seems to be horrifically easy to find
You found fresh raw colostrum for sale in your area? Or are you talking mail-order?
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 10:35:39 PM
@Nigel - I got measles when I was 5 and apparently I "nearly died" whatever that means. I developed otitis media as a complication and they thought my hearing might be permanently affected. I was lucky and it wasn't - my partner had her eyes affected and she has been left with permanent light sensitivity.
Everyone reacts slightly differently, has a slightly different health status at the point of infection, reacts slightly differently to medication, bedrest etc etc etc. I'm not suggesting that you have to re-invent the wheel for every case but there is an element of "butterfly wing flapping" that applies to all issues relating to a complex organism like a person.
Yes. Measles is a dangerous disease... lucky you didn't catch it a few years younger or you likely WOULD have died. Some people are more fragile/susceptible than others. One more reason to be grateful for vaccines.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 11:33:45 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 10:35:39 PM
@Nigel - I got measles when I was 5 and apparently I "nearly died" whatever that means. I developed otitis media as a complication and they thought my hearing might be permanently affected. I was lucky and it wasn't - my partner had her eyes affected and she has been left with permanent light sensitivity.
Everyone reacts slightly differently, has a slightly different health status at the point of infection, reacts slightly differently to medication, bedrest etc etc etc. I'm not suggesting that you have to re-invent the wheel for every case but there is an element of "butterfly wing flapping" that applies to all issues relating to a complex organism like a person.
Yes. Measles is a dangerous disease... lucky you didn't catch it a few years younger or you likely WOULD have died. Some people are more fragile/susceptible than others. One more reason to be grateful for vaccines.
Yeah just because it is a "kids disease" it doesn't mean that it doesn't present a significant risk of long term health deficits or even death . . . . and no, you're right I didn't mean fresh bovine colostrum I was just surprised by the mass of hits I got when I googled. I keep lamb colostrum in store [yeah I know I'm weird] and if I need it I would ask my feed merchant to put me in touch with a local dairy farmer
edit for quote fail
re-edit for utter quote fail
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 11:30:07 PM
Quote from: MMIX on March 17, 2010, 10:25:19 PM
Nigel said
QuoteGood luck finding raw bovine colostrum for sale...
Don't forget that luck can be good or bad . . .
http://www.marlerblog.com/2009/09/articles/lawyer-oped/comparing-the-food-safety-record-of-pasteurized-and-raw-milk-products-part-2/
QuoteRaw Bovine Colostrum
Colostrum is the "first milk" produced by the mammary gland of an animal after giving birth. Consumption of raw bovine colostrum appears to be increasing in popularity among raw milk drinkers, and has been associated with two recent foodborne disease outbreaks in California (CDC 2008; CDPH 2008). Unlike raw milk, raw bovine colostrum is regulated as a nutritional supplement. A recent survey of dairies in Pennsylvania by Houser et al (2008) found Salmonella in 15% of the colostrum samples; the mean standard plate counts (SPC) and coliforms were very high: 977,539 CFU/ml and 323,372 CFU/ml, respectively (see Oliver et al, 2009, for a broader discussion of sanitation standards). It was not specified in the paper if these dairies surveyed in Pennsylvania sold raw bovine colostrum for human consumption. Additional surveys are needed to study foodborne pathogens and sanitary standards in raw bovine colostrum from dairies that market the product as a nutritional supplement for humans.
also it seems to be horrifically easy to find
You found fresh raw colostrum for sale in your area? Or are you talking mail-order?
I've got a friend of a friend who can get you goat colostrum on the sly. How much can I put you down for?
Also, fuck Andrew Wakefield.
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 11:33:45 PM
Yes. Measles is a dangerous disease... lucky you didn't catch it a few years younger or you likely WOULD have died. Some people are more fragile/susceptible than others. One more reason to be grateful for vaccines.
Shows how much I know. I thought the younger you were, the better chance of recovery you had.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2010, 01:39:09 AM
Quote from: Calamity Nigel on March 17, 2010, 11:33:45 PM
Yes. Measles is a dangerous disease... lucky you didn't catch it a few years younger or you likely WOULD have died. Some people are more fragile/susceptible than others. One more reason to be grateful for vaccines.
Shows how much I know. I thought the younger you were, the better chance of recovery you had.
This is kind of true, to a point. Children over five and under thirteen have a much better time of it than adults, but very small children/babies are more susceptible to death from just about any disease.
I just want to say, I love the name of this thread.
Quote from: Brotep on March 18, 2010, 02:50:01 AM
I just want to say, I love the name of this thread.
:lulz: Then my work here is done.
Memes will take over the world just wait and see but you will never notice it . . .
Wow. :kingmeh:
I mean, some of these hippies are okay, when they're not pushing you to open a septic tank to start a better compost heap. Then again, I'm not sure East Coast hippies really are anything but preachy shitbag bums and yuppies that bought the hippie themed crap.
Quote from: Infidel on March 18, 2010, 05:29:10 PM
Wow. :kingmeh:
I mean, some of these hippies are okay, when they're not pushing you to open a septic tank to start a better compost heap. Then again, I'm not sure East Coast hippies really are anything but preachy shitbag bums and yuppies that bought the hippie themed crap.
Southwest hippies tend to be grave robbers. No shit.
I knew it. Given long enough they'll start harvesting people to feed their beloved plants. Eating the dead to save the seeds, berries and fruit.
Quote from: Richter on March 18, 2010, 05:34:41 PM
I knew it. Given long enough they'll start harvesting people to feed their beloved plants. Eating the dead to save the seeds, berries and fruit.
Probably.
But mostly they just pillage indian burials for "momentos of their spiritual ancestors".
Ahhhh Memes have taken over the world - don't think about it
Quote from: MMIX on March 18, 2010, 06:17:44 PM
Ahhhh Memes have taken over the world - don't think about it
Are you just cutting and pasting, now?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2010, 05:37:01 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 18, 2010, 05:34:41 PM
I knew it. Given long enough they'll start harvesting people to feed their beloved plants. Eating the dead to save the seeds, berries and fruit.
Probably.
But mostly they just pillage indian burials for "momentos of their spiritual ancestors".
Wow. What a bunch of fucking wackjob asshole hypocrites.
Quote from: Kai on March 18, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2010, 05:37:01 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 18, 2010, 05:34:41 PM
I knew it. Given long enough they'll start harvesting people to feed their beloved plants. Eating the dead to save the seeds, berries and fruit.
Probably.
But mostly they just pillage indian burials for "momentos of their spiritual ancestors".
Wow. What a bunch of fucking wackjob asshole hypocrites.
Oh, yeah. These "personal momentos" (Read: proceeds of digging through some guy's grave) go for top dollar under the counter at the gem show and the various "psychic fairs" that come through the Tucson Convention Center.
Dok,
Is locus est atrox.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:42:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Can you post a link for that? I have a few people that need to STFU about "GLUTEN BAD FOR EVERYONE UNNG", and your post is the best news I've heard all morning.
I swear to God, ECH, these health fad Nazis are the fucking worst.
I'll dig around. I've read so much on the subject at this point that pinpointing a source may take a bit and have to wait until tonight when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure I can find you something.
Thanks, no hurry. This sort of ownage is best served in a leisurely fashion, anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free_diet
scroll down to the section titled "deficiencies linked to maintaining a gluten-free diet". Not as in depth as I would have liked (duh, it's wikipedia), but it was the quickest one I could find and is basically correct. In all fairness, though going gluten-free carries risk of several nutrient deficiencies, it also forces adherents of the diet to essentially cut processed food out of their diet, so someone who eats mostly fast food and junk food and highly processed crap would probably benefit from a gluten-free diet in the long run, even though they'd have to pay close attention to making sure they got enough vitamins and nutrients.
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 18, 2010, 06:27:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 07:42:20 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2010, 06:33:13 PM
Quote from: Emerald City Hustle on March 17, 2010, 06:20:54 PM
ECHGF has Celiac's, and as a result I have done ALOT of research on the subject. Turns out, if you don't have celiac's or a gluten allergy (the two are similar but not the same) it is mildly detrimental to go on a gluten-free diet. Not that the nature of the diet itself is bad for you, but just going gluten free without making some other adjustments will, in the long term, usually lead to some mild nutrient deficiencies.
Can you post a link for that? I have a few people that need to STFU about "GLUTEN BAD FOR EVERYONE UNNG", and your post is the best news I've heard all morning.
I swear to God, ECH, these health fad Nazis are the fucking worst.
I'll dig around. I've read so much on the subject at this point that pinpointing a source may take a bit and have to wait until tonight when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure I can find you something.
Thanks, no hurry. This sort of ownage is best served in a leisurely fashion, anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free_diet
scroll down to the section titled "deficiencies linked to maintaining a gluten-free diet". Not as in depth as I would have liked (duh, it's wikipedia), but it was the quickest one I could find and is basically correct. In all fairness, though going gluten-free carries risk of several nutrient deficiencies, it also forces adherents of the diet to essentially cut processed food out of their diet, so someone who eats mostly fast food and junk food and highly processed crap would probably benefit from a gluten-free diet in the long run, even though they'd have to pay close attention to making sure they got enough vitamins and nutrients.
Sweet. I can get the rest from their sources at the bottom of the page.
And, yeah, I get your point about processed foods, but the point I want to make to a few people is that...well, I won't actually convince anyone, but at least I can make the conversation as unpleasant for them as it is for me.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2010, 05:37:01 PM
Quote from: Richter on March 18, 2010, 05:34:41 PM
I knew it. Given long enough they'll start harvesting people to feed their beloved plants. Eating the dead to save the seeds, berries and fruit.
Probably.
But mostly they just pillage indian burials for "momentos of their spiritual ancestors".
:(