Hello and welcome to the 21st century. We're almost a decade into this shit but, just in case anybody hadn't noticed yet, allow me to spell it out for you - the future is here and it's time to get with the program.
Let's begin by getting rid of some shit you won't be needing anymore...
First off - best to lose all sense of belief and conviction, hell, those were getting old by the middle of the 20th but now? 21st century needs those things like a fish needs a bra. Nobody believes anything anymore. Maybe we used to but too many deeply held ones have been shattered, too many times to the point where pretty much everyone is wise to that shit. Idealism grew up into bitterness and hatred. Belief and conviction replaced by scepticism and the attention span of a wasp. Don't believe me? Good, that's a start. You might survive this yet.
Next up you should probably ditch compassion. Caring has absolutely no place in this brave new hell hole. There's too many people being screwed over, too many epic fuck-ups and, due in no small part to the rising popularity of ignorance and apathy as a design for life, these are scheduled to increase in both frequency and horror right up until the bitter end, if and when it ever shows it's face. Trust me, by the time it does you will be on your hands and knees begging for it. Don't believe me? Excellent - you're really getting the hang of this - keep it up!
At some point we're going to have to talk about intelligence. Yes, I know you've been hanging onto it like a wet-wipe in a shit tsunami but it really isn't currency in this day and age. Intelligent people were last century, nowadays the stupid and the insane are the only ones able to deal with life. Intelligence teaches us that there's a solution, that there's some way to fix this clusterfuck, some way to make sense of it all. Forget it - none of this makes sense and, even if you wanted to, it's irreparable but you don't really want to fix it that badly anyway, do you? No because the apathy I mentioned in the last paragraph has taken root in your soul. You don't believe me? Hahahaha - you're doing great - you'll have your eyes shut and your hands over your ears, screaming hysterically in no time. You'll fit in just fine.
So good luck and make the most of the 21st century. You'll never see another one like it. In fact, if things keep going the way they're going there won't be another one, like it or otherwise.
Isn't that a relief?
Yes, Doktor, explaining survival tools to monkeys is like yelling "STOP!" to lemmings as Marlin Perkins herds them off a cliff with a bulldozer. Ah, good old Marlin...Anything to make Wildlife Kingdom more real for his viewers. Who needs real facts (lemmings don't actually charge off of cliffs on their own), when you can have authenticity?
Okay for now,
Dok Howl
Good Doktor,
Is the throbbing numbness and muttering spasms part of the acclimation process? They both started as tics and evolved into crippling outbursts. Speaking with anything but clenched jaw and narrowed eyes takes concerted painful effort.
-EoC
This was a great piece, p3nt.
An interesting theory, my good man, but one I must disagree with.
The 21st century has started off badly, but I don't think it's time yet to give up hope. And you forgot to mention hope.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 09:26:41 PM
An interesting theory, my good man, but one I must disagree with.
The 21st century has started off badly, but I don't think it's time yet to give up hope. And you forgot to mention hope.
Hope in one hand, shit in the other.
Which hand fills up faster?
QuoteHope in one hand, shit in the other.
Which hand fills up faster?
Neither, since hope is an emotion, and I don't let people shit in my hand.
The situation right now is shitty. But nothing ever stays the same forever. The situation eventually will change for the better on its own. Or we can force it to improve.
Attention church of the latter day saints - we have us a live one :lulz:
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 09:47:31 PM
and I don't let people shit in my hand.
You kids these days...You just don't know how to have a good time.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 09:47:31 PM
The situation right now is shitty. But nothing ever stays the same forever. The situation eventually will change for the better on its own. Or we can force it to improve.
Sure. I mean, things even got better after Rome fell, right? Of course, it took 1300 years of savagery and superstition, but good things come to those who wait.
And good luck with forcing things to improve. Forcing the bulk of monkeys to do anything these days is like trying to herd smilodons.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 27, 2010, 09:49:02 PM
Attention church of the latter day saints - we have us a live one :lulz:
Dr Semaj is a very smart young man, but he hasn't had the fluffy white clouds and rainbows beaten out of him, yet.
Give it another few years.
Optimism, like pessimism, is a distorted view of the world.
QuoteAttention church of the latter day saints - we have us a live one
Too bad I'm not a pacifist. They might have liked me.
QuoteSure. I mean, things even got better after Rome fell, right?
Good example, but times have changed since then. History has been accelerating since then. These days the entire world can be knocked on its ass in an afternoon.
QuoteAnd good luck with forcing things to improve.
I'll need it. Luckily, I have a plan.
QuoteDr Semaj is a very smart young man, but he hasn't had the fluffy white clouds and rainbows beaten out of him, yet.
Thanks for the compliment. And you forgot to mention the unicorns. I still treasure the pink unicorns.
QuoteOptimism, like pessimism, is a distorted view of the world.
And what of cynicism?
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
QuoteAttention church of the latter day saints - we have us a live one
Too bad I'm not a pacifist. They might have liked me.
Mormons aren't pacifists. Not by a long shot.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
QuoteSure. I mean, things even got better after Rome fell, right?
Good example, but times have changed since then. History has been accelerating since then. These days the entire world can be knocked on its ass in an afternoon.
Yes, and that supports my point.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
QuoteAnd good luck with forcing things to improve.
I'll need it. Luckily, I have a plan.
Uh huh.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
QuoteDr Semaj is a very smart young man, but he hasn't had the fluffy white clouds and rainbows beaten out of him, yet.
Thanks for the compliment. And you forgot to mention the unicorns. I still treasure the pink unicorns.
QuoteOptimism, like pessimism, is a distorted view of the world.
And what of cynicism?
We Doktors prefer to call it realism.
QuoteMormons aren't pacifists. Not by a long shot.
Really? I thought they were a pacifistic faith? Admittedly, haven't done any research...ah. I see.
QuoteYes, and that supports my point.
That there is no hope?
Quote
Uh huh.
Ya, thought you'd say that. I'm not sure if its going to work, and its a lifetime project kind of deal, but I figure its worth a shot. Why not try and make the world a better place?
QuoteWe Doktors prefer to call it realism.
And you're joined in that sentiment by a lot of people. Cynicism is the new opium of the masses.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:53:25 PM
Ya, thought you'd say that. I'm not sure if its going to work, and its a lifetime project kind of deal, but I figure its worth a shot. Why not try and make the world a better place?
Ask Jesus, Gandhi, MLK, and Malcomn X.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 10:53:25 PM
And you're joined in that sentiment by a lot of people. Cynicism is the new opium of the masses.
So it is your considered opinion that looking at things the way they really are is some form of soma?
QuoteAsk Jesus, Gandhi, MLK, and Malcomn X.
All of whom came to bad ends, definitely. But look at the impact they had on the world, the positive changes they brought.
Quote
So it is your considered opinion that looking at things the way they really are is some form of soma?
No, it is my considered opinion that cynicism is not the same thing as realism. Cynicism runs along the same line as nihilism and pessimism, that the world is a bad place and little to nothing can be done to improve it. And yes, cynicism is a narcotic. It makes people apathetic, and yes, it is everywhere in our society.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 11:11:46 PM
No, it is my considered opinion that cynicism is not the same thing as realism. Cynicism runs along the same line as nihilism and pessimism, that the world is a bad place and little to nothing can be done to improve it. And yes, cynicism is a narcotic. It makes people apathetic, and yes, it is everywhere in our society.
Then it's a good thing I haven't identified myself as a cynic. You did that; I reject the description.
I may seem - in your words - to be a doped up member of the masses, to you...But that's because you aren't making any effort to understand what I say, but rather to drape your own image of me around me.
QuoteThen it's a good thing I haven't identified myself as a cynic. You did that; I reject the description.
In that case, I apologize. You equated cynicism with realism, so I thought that meant that you believed in cynicism or realism as you put it.
QuoteBut that's because you aren't making any effort to understand what I say, but rather to drape your own image of me around me.
Okay then. Then help me understand what you're saying.
Also, I respect you Dok, I don't think you're a doped up member of the masses. You question things, rather than mindlessly assume they'll turn out shitty. I just disagree with the idea that there is no hope.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM
QuoteThen it's a good thing I haven't identified myself as a cynic. You did that; I reject the description.
In that case, I apologize. You equated cynicism with realism, so I thought that meant that you believed in cynicism or realism as you put it.
I never equated the two. You did. I accepted your term for the sake of argument.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM
Okay then. Then help me understand what you're saying.
Why? It's apparent that you don't even read what I say, but react to what you had expected me to say.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 27, 2010, 11:38:11 PM
Also, I respect you Dok, I don't think you're a doped up member of the masses. You question things, rather than mindlessly assume they'll turn out shitty. I just disagree with the idea that there is no hope.
Hope exists. If it didn't, suicide would be the largest cause of death on Earth. But "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard. Is that the extent of your plan (I have yet to see any details, after all, of this plan)? Is this another "Change" platform?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 27, 2010, 11:41:34 PM
Hope exists. If it didn't, suicide would be the largest cause of death on Earth. But "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard.
This! Also rant is rant. I do this to entertain. Some of them are cynical flavoured, some misanthropic, others are other stuff. You want a blueprint to change the world I'd advise you quit reading my bullshit. I don't have the answers. Shit, I'm too busy laughing at the questions.
QuoteAnd what of cynicism?
QuoteWe Doktors prefer to call it realism.
That's when realism was equated with cynicism. I brought up cynicism and you called it realism. I went with it because you first said it.
QuoteIt's apparent that you don't even read what I say, but react to what you had expected me to say.
I've read everything you've said in this thread, and thought carefully before responding to any of it. Now, if I misunderstood something or just plain got it wrong, then please explain it to me so I can fix it.
QuoteBut "hope" as an ANSWER to anything is just another way of whistling past the graveyard.
I agree and that's not what I meant by hope. I meant it simply as an emotion which helps people imagine and strive for something better. As for my plan, I've been working on it only about a year, and really it's just a bunch of plans that work towards a similar goal. Right now I've got two plans, one long term and subtle, the other short term and not very subtle.
QuoteYou want a blueprint to change the world I'd advise you quit reading my bullshit. I don't have the answers.
Oh, sorry Dok, if I'm thread jacking. And it's not bullshit, its good writing.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 28, 2010, 12:38:52 AM
I agree and that's not what I meant by hope. I meant it simply as an emotion which helps people imagine and strive for something better. As for my plan, I've been working on it only about a year, and really it's just a bunch of plans that work towards a similar goal. Right now I've got two plans, one long term and subtle, the other short term and not very subtle.
Well? I'm listening. Convince this horrible, cynical, opiated old man that you have something worth working on, worth
hoping for.
And I was not equating the two terms, but rather correcting how you described my attitude.
Okay then. I'll start with the long one. This plan will admittedly take most of my life to complete, has a high chance of failure, and requires that I have a sizable amount of money.
Human beings tend to think in the language they first learned, their native tongue. If I see a picture of the word horse, I'll probably think the word horse, rather than its French or Chinese equivalents, even if I know them. So, going off this principle, thought patterns tend to reflect the language. If certain concepts are emphasized by a language, such as there being more ways to express or describe that concept, then those concepts will become more common and focused in the minds of people raised in that language. The reverse is also true, a concept that has fewer ways to describe it, and with a negative sound and connotation, will become less dominant in the psyche.
Now, the plan is to construct a language that emphasizes concepts such as open mindedness, thinking in the long term, understanding, and similar while steering away from bigotry, short sightedness, etc. Then this language needs to be instituted among people, preferably so that it can spread as quickly as possible. With any luck, after a couple centuries, the people raised into this language will be more open minded and more likely to consider long term consequences.
I plan to acquire the services of linguists, psycholinguists, sociolinguists, sociologists, psychologists, artists, and other experts to design this language. Once it is finished, I will attempt to get it instituted two ways. Preferably, it would function as an educational language for young children, allowing them to learn other languages easier. Less preferably, I would advertise it as a trade language, once again to do it incorporating elements of other languages. With time and a lot of luck, more and more people will speak this language, and raise their kids with this language.
I'm going to be in the planning stage for the next decade or so, learning about conlang, getting the resources together, finding and picking the experts I'll need. If this stage works out well, then I'll move it into action.
This plan is very unlikely to succeed, due to the costs and numerous uncertainties involved. And even if it did succeed I would not live to see it do so. That's why I'm working on other plans. I plan to have as many different plans as possible, so that I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket.
Now, if you want, you can critique this plan. I'll post the short term one afterwards. Ask me anything you want.
Oh and we might want to split the thread, since we're going onto a completely new topic.
Hope is easily crushed. It's an internet sport you know. So if you don't have a fully-formed bullet-proof set of plans, it might be better to keep them to a incubative audience until they are mature enough... oops you already posted, good luck ;-)
Quotegood luck
Gonna need it.
You're braver than I am, my devious plots for the betterment of humanity are kept close to my chest.
My immediate thought is that people have a strong irrational attachment to their language. It may be easier to popularise the concept/process, rather than the result of the process - your brand new language. Have you considered modifying existing languages - creating new phrases, idioms, etc - if so, why did you reject this approach?
QuoteHave you considered modifying existing languages - creating new phrases, idioms, etc - if so, why did you reject this approach?
In all honesty, that idea had not occurred to me. But I think I would reject that approach simply because I do not think it would be enough. Even if I made alterations, the symbolic and idealistic structure of the language would still be the same. Unless I found a language that worked exactly like the one I plan to construct (which bears looking into), I might as well just remake the entire language.
Now, I did consider people's protectiveness of their native tongue. I would try and incorporate bits and pieces of different languages, such as sentence structure, how different letters and letter combos sound. This would help ease this hopefully, and make it easier to sell as either an intro to other languages or as a trade language.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 28, 2010, 01:53:27 AM
Now, I did consider people's protectiveness of their native tongue. I would try and incorporate bits and pieces of different languages, such as sentence structure, how different letters and letter combos sound. This would help ease this hopefully, and make it easier to sell as either an intro to other languages or as a trade language.
That didn't work out so well for esperanto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto) - "an easy to learn and politically neutral language that would serve as a universal second language to foster peace and international understanding". Though 10,000 speakers isn't bad, and certainly not that much of a deterrent if, as you said, this is a long term plan.
QuoteThat didn't work out so well for esperanto - "an easy to learn and politically neutral language that would serve as a universal second language to foster peace and international understanding". Though 10,000 speakers isn't bad, and certainly not that much of a deterrent if, as you said, this is a long term plan.
If this one gets past the planning stage, than I'll be working on it probably till the day I die. And that's why I'm working on other ideas, so if one doesn't work out, there's always something else.
First, Pent.... good rant!
Semaj,
Esperanto was the first thing i thought of when you unveiled your plan, as well.
As it is a language designed for the same purpose you put forward, and has a small speaker base.... why don't you just work to further popularize it, and shape its vocabulary to your liking?
QuoteAs it is a language designed for the same purpose you put forward, and has a small speaker base.... why don't you just work to further popularize it, and shape its vocabulary to your liking?
I might use that as a separate plan. The trade language and/or educational language is just a means of getting the conlang to people. Its a languages ability to change people's thinking that I'm going for. But working to popularize Esperanto would make a good plan to add one to the master plan. Thank Iptuous.
Makes me wonder if people have actually learned Ithkuil (http://www.ithkuil.net/) or even Ilaksh yet.
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 28, 2010, 01:20:05 AM
Hope is easily crushed. It's an internet sport you know. So if you don't have a fully-formed bullet-proof set of plans, it might be better to keep them to a incubative audience until they are mature enough... oops you already posted, good luck ;-)
I see. We are incapable of rendering an honest critique.
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 28, 2010, 01:14:54 AM
Okay then. I'll start with the long one. This plan will admittedly take most of my life to complete, has a high chance of failure, and requires that I have a sizable amount of money.
Human beings tend to think in the language they first learned, their native tongue. If I see a picture of the word horse, I'll probably think the word horse, rather than its French or Chinese equivalents, even if I know them. So, going off this principle, thought patterns tend to reflect the language. If certain concepts are emphasized by a language, such as there being more ways to express or describe that concept, then those concepts will become more common and focused in the minds of people raised in that language. The reverse is also true, a concept that has fewer ways to describe it, and with a negative sound and connotation, will become less dominant in the psyche.
Now, the plan is to construct a language that emphasizes concepts such as open mindedness, thinking in the long term, understanding, and similar while steering away from bigotry, short sightedness, etc. Then this language needs to be instituted among people, preferably so that it can spread as quickly as possible. With any luck, after a couple centuries, the people raised into this language will be more open minded and more likely to consider long term consequences.
I plan to acquire the services of linguists, psycholinguists, sociolinguists, sociologists, psychologists, artists, and other experts to design this language. Once it is finished, I will attempt to get it instituted two ways. Preferably, it would function as an educational language for young children, allowing them to learn other languages easier. Less preferably, I would advertise it as a trade language, once again to do it incorporating elements of other languages. With time and a lot of luck, more and more people will speak this language, and raise their kids with this language.
I'm going to be in the planning stage for the next decade or so, learning about conlang, getting the resources together, finding and picking the experts I'll need. If this stage works out well, then I'll move it into action.
This plan is very unlikely to succeed, due to the costs and numerous uncertainties involved. And even if it did succeed I would not live to see it do so. That's why I'm working on other plans. I plan to have as many different plans as possible, so that I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket.
Now, if you want, you can critique this plan. I'll post the short term one afterwards. Ask me anything you want.
Oh and we might want to split the thread, since we're going onto a completely new topic.
It's original, and - despite other comments here - not a rehash of Esperanto, which was developed as an attempt at a standardized language, rather than a standardized language
designed to change how people think. I think the idea has merit, though the process of putting it in place may be far more difficult than you think, for many reasons (religion, for example, in the case of the ME). I have a few other concerns, but I need to boot them around a bit before responding properly. Sometime this week, I'm thinking.
I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/
I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it ;-) )
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:58:30 PM
I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/
I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it ;-) )
Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 04:59:37 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:58:30 PM
I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/
I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it ;-) )
Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad.
So what's the difference?
Quote
It's original, and - despite other comments here - not a rehash of Esperanto, which was developed as an attempt at a standardized language, rather than a standardized language designed to change how people think. I think the idea has merit, though the process of putting it in place may be far more difficult than you think, for many reasons (religion, for example, in the case of the ME). I have a few other concerns, but I need to boot them around a bit before responding properly. Sometime this week, I'm thinking.
Fair enough. I'm still in the planning stage, and the early planning stage at that. Also, I also lack world experience, so I'm a bit of a disadvantage right now when it comes to predicting difficulties.
I'm looking forward to the other points. The more kinks I get out of this plan, the more likely I can get it past the planning stage.
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 05:07:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 04:59:37 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 04:58:30 PM
I like the optimism... At this point I'm only optimistic that I can improve myself... the rest of the world is likely on its own :-/
I think language is an excellent point of attack (see General Semantics for similar thinking)... However, getting people to change their language seems damn near impossible (I no longer use ePrime because even Discordians shat on me for it ;-) )
Eprime isn't a language change, it's a language fad.
So what's the difference?
1. One will last, the other is an MBA-esque fad that won't last.
2. Drawing on a torn pair of jeans won't repair the rip.
The point of e-prime was very similar to what Dr JS is going for. By reminding humans that their point of view is subjective and time sensitive, you end up sidestepping a lot of arguments and confusion. ESPECIALLY in arguments and discussions about subjective things. I've found that over time, e-prime helped change the way I think, making me more tolerant and understanding. At times, it also paralyzes me with uncertainty, but I think that's just something you have to fight through if you think about thinking too much. :p
Maybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts. The thing about any living language is that they are constantly evolving. New words and phrases come into general usage for any number of reasons, maybe something new is invented like a "computer" and they need a whole bunch of new words or re appropriation of existing ones in order to describe all the things about it and stuff it can do. Maybe popular culture will make a new phrase or slang term globally popular. Right now most english speaking persons would find it difficult to talk to someone speaking the "same" language from a hundred or so years ago. That's because, ship of theseus-fashion we're not speaking the same english anymore.
Reason I'm pointing this out is that it would appear to make the implementation infinitely easier if you approach it in this manner. Come up with the whole language by all means, and cover all the conceptual stuff and then work out how to introduce these words or concepts, one at a time - that's where artists and poets and all the rest will be helpful for "marketing" these words and memes to the public. I still think this will be awesome hard to pull off but not as hard as getting the world to buy into a new language. Of course I'd expect a snowball effect if you do it internationally and cross-languages. Like every new word or phrase would be the same in every language. Eventually people might realise how handy it is to be able to say the same word the world over and then be more inclined to buy into new words to add to the collection.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 05:33:29 PM
The point of e-prime was very similar to what Dr JS is going for. By reminding humans that their point of view is subjective and time sensitive, you end up sidestepping a lot of arguments and confusion. ESPECIALLY in arguments and discussions about subjective things. I've found that over time, e-prime helped change the way I think, making me more tolerant and understanding. At times, it also paralyzes me with uncertainty, but I think that's just something you have to fight through if you think about thinking too much. :p
Actually, you make your communications vaguer, more suceptable to misinterpretation or willful twisting of intent.
E Prime might have been a stab at a solution, but it wasn't well thought out, and seems to have been designed by management consultants to help upper management find a way to keep mid-level managers in a constant state of uncertainty and fear. I have no idea if that's really how it was developed, but that is certainly the result.
Some things ARE objective and absolute, and in some cases it's better to make your case that way (the industrial maintenance field is an excellent example of this). It's hard to argue that a physical impossibility demanded by a boss can't be done if you speak in mush-mouth about it.
I like Dr Semaj's idea. E Prime is not, however, what I think he was talking about. It is a language of slaves, to be perfectly honest. It is possible to develop a language that changes the way people think, without removing their capability to be assertive.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on June 28, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
Maybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts.
That makes communication easier in some ways, but more difficult in others.
And it doesn't address the primary objective: To change the way people think, in their formative years.
You can see where one of my concerns is going to be.
For example, if I didn't think in e-prime, I might have forgotten that roger's acidic description of e-prime as a "language of slaves designed by management consultants to foster uncertainty and fear" is his subjective opinion based in part on his revulsion towards RAW and the people who like him. :lol:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 06:10:47 PM
For example, if I didn't think in e-prime, I might have forgotten that roger's acidic description of e-prime as a "language of slaves designed by management consultants to foster uncertainty and fear" is his subjective opinion based in part on his revulsion towards RAW and the people who like him. :lol:
1. I don't have a revulsion to RAW. I've read many of his books (fiction and non-fiction) several times. I DO take exception to the fact that he can't finish a book without a chapter of James Joyce babbling (he seems to have a problem with ending a story), but other than that, he's okay. The Schroedinger's Cat Trilogy is in my top ten list. I don't even have revulsion for people who like him...provided, of course, that "like" doesn't translate to "fan boy" or "religious follower", as is sometimes the case.
2. It's not an opinion, so much as an admittedly untested hypothesis (as I am going off of limited data).
"Kill your idols, but take notes first."
Quote from: LMNO on June 28, 2010, 06:27:00 PM
"Kill your idols, but take notes first."
This.
RAW was a well-meaning hippie with a taste for soft core porn in his writing, that took some really good ideas from Leary and popularized them. So far, so good.
However, when he is quoted as an unimpeachable authority, that's when I start to have a problem.
And E Prime really IS a good way to keep subordinates in line. For real.
E-prime seems like a decent idea, but I don't think limiting the ways people can express themselves is really the answer. While e-prime might make so that you have speak more specifically and objectively, that isn't really my goal. The goal is to alter human thinking so that it more open to new ideas and more likely to think long term.
QuoteMaybe the easiest way isn't to try and replace the language with a new one but to supplant it with new words and concepts.
I might use this if I cannot get the conlang introduced as an educational language. If I can't get it to people when their in their formative years, then my best bet is to introduce it however I can and hope families raise their kids into it.
E Prime is just another way of not looking at The Truth, by making everything a "maybe truth".
It's an impediment, not an aid.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:30:42 PM
And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.
fixed that for ya, boss :lulz:
Quote from: Dr. James Semaj on June 28, 2010, 06:33:30 PM
E-prime seems like a decent idea, but I don't think limiting the ways people can express themselves is really the answer. While e-prime might make so that you have speak more specifically and objectively, that isn't really my goal. The goal is to alter human thinking so that it more open to new ideas and more likely to think long term.
you might dig Korzybski's notion of "General Semantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Semantics)", the field which e-prime grew from.
QuoteKorzybski described the central goal of General Semantics as developing in its practitioners what he called a "consciousness of abstracting," or an awareness of the map/territory distinction and of how information gets deleted/distorted in the linguistic and other representations we use. Korzybski considered sporadic and intellectual understanding of these concepts insufficient, rather that humans achieve full sanity only when the consciousness of abstracting becomes constant and a matter of reflex.
Many General Semantics practitioners view the associated techniques as a kind of self-defense kit against manipulative semantic distortions routinely promulgated by advertising, politics, and religion, as well as those found in self-deception.
Viewed philosophically, some consider General Semantics as a form of applied conceptualism that emphasizes the degree to which human experience gets filtered and mediated by contingent features of human sensory organs, the human nervous system, and human linguistic constructions.
The most important premise of General Semantics has been succinctly expressed as "The map is not the territory; the word is not the thing defined".[1] While Aristotle wrote that a true definition gives the essence of the thing defined (in Greek to ti ên einai, literally "the what it was to be"), General Semantics denies the possibility of describing such an essence.[2] In this, General Semantics purports to represent an evolution in human evaluative orientation much as non-Euclidean geometry represents an evolution in mathematical representation of spatial relationships.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:30:42 PM
And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.
fixed that for ya, boss :lulz:
:lulz:
It is, though. I can demonstrate why.
Quoteyou might dig Korzybski's notion of "General Semantics", the field which e-prime grew from.
I just might. Going into my research pile.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:38:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:30:42 PM
And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.
fixed that for ya, boss :lulz:
:lulz:
It is, though. I can demonstrate why.
I'll bite. But I want to say -
in the last week alone, e-prime has helped me cut through numerous confusions at work, stay relatively objective while my GF and I were screaming at each other, and avoid strangling people I was arguing with about religion. I've found it
extremely useful in those types of situations, but not 100% of the time. Honestly, I think it's actually improved the quality of my life, or at the very least, my communications.
I do object to the idea that I'm perpetuating a language designed to oppress people, and would be somehow more free by constantly speaking in absolutist language which glosses over nuance or subjectivity. And if I didn't know you, I might be offended. But that's the purpose of R-Prime, the linguistic equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun, no? :lol:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 06:56:21 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:38:29 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 06:30:42 PM
And E Prime really seems to me like a good way to keep subordinates in line.
fixed that for ya, boss :lulz:
:lulz:
It is, though. I can demonstrate why.
I'll bite. But I want to say - in the last week alone, e-prime has helped me cut through numerous confusions at work, stay relatively objective while my GF and I were screaming at each other, and avoid strangling people I was arguing with about religion. I've found it extremely useful in those types of situations, but not 100% of the time. Honestly, I think it's actually improved the quality of my life, or at the very least, my communications.
I do object to the idea that I'm perpetuating a language designed to oppress people, and would be somehow more free by constantly speaking in absolutist language which glosses over nuance or subjectivity. And if I didn't know you, I might be offended. But that's the purpose of R-Prime, the linguistic equivalent of a sawed-off shotgun, no? :lol:
Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve. Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.
He is now, of course, free to continue taking his stress out on you. Or so it may subjectively seem to you.
And sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth. It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.
In fact, the very worst thing that can happen to an e-prime using individual is to be stuck in a room with me for a month or three, on a project. I have an unfortunate tendency to steam roller people like that at work, difficult as it may be to believe.
Incidentally, did you get your package yet?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 07:02:25 PM
Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve. Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.
e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.
If you let yourself get shit on, you're a pussy. What language you use isn't going to change that.
QuoteAnd sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth. It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.
sure. SOMETIMES you need a shotgun. SOMETIMES you need to be specific. Neither are in of themselves proper ways to conduct yourself 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that e-prime is useless.
QuoteIncidentally, did you get your package yet?
No, not yet! :sad:
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 07:02:25 PM
Yeah, so your boss gives you a ration of shit that you don't deserve. Instead of standing up to him, you realize that he is merely exercising some subjective opinions that you subjectively think are incorrect, and thus don't go all asplodey.
e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.
If you let yourself get shit on, you're a pussy. What language you use isn't going to change that.
QuoteAnd sometimes, Cram, you NEED a sawed off shotgun installed in your mouth. It has served me well when dealing with back-stabbing fellow managers, vendors, fixers, and cheap punks of every other description.
sure. SOMETIMES you need a shotgun. SOMETIMES you need to be specific. Neither are in of themselves proper ways to conduct yourself 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that e-prime is useless.
QuoteIncidentally, did you get your package yet?
No, not yet! :sad:
I had to send it by freight rates, or take an ass raping. You should see it in the next 3-4 days at the latest.
And I maintain that having a shotgun sticking out of your mouth at all times is preferable.
1. E Prime is an invitation for people like Filthy Assistant and Mike the Engineer to fuck with your game, and
2. Keeps the fucking pterodactyls away. Will E Prime do that?
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 07:20:37 PM
e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.
I'm not sure there's a distinction, there, come to think of it. You can only use information that you have received and processed. The method by which you process it determines the end data you have to work with.
A Parable: Once, 5 blind men encountered an elephant. The first touched it's trunk, and said "It is like a snake". The second touched it's leg and said "It's like a tree". The 3rd touched it's ears and said "It's like a manta ray". The 4th touched its side and said "It's like a mountain". The 5th touched its dick, grabbed a machete, killed the other 4 blind men, and signed the elephant to a porno deal for big bucks.
Quote2. Keeps the fucking pterodactyls away. Will E Prime do that?
Yes, the pterodactyls prefer ---- AAAAH GOD HELP THEY SEEM TO BE EATING ME -- MY INTESTINES APPEAR TO BE FALLING OUT!!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 07:20:37 PM
e-prime has nothing to do with how you react to information, only the terms you use to define it.
I'm not sure there's a distinction, there, come to think of it. You can only use information that you have received and processed. The method by which you process it determines the end data you have to work with.
Hm, I don't follow.
So the boss says "Chris never makes deadlines, let's not hire him to freelance, let's do it in-house." (which is code for "You do it, it'll save us money.")
and the hidden story is that Chris is usually pretty good, but hasn't made any deadlines
recently because we've been overburdening him and changing his task the day before its due.
Thinking in e-prime draws my attention to why the boss said that (his subjective, time-sensitive perceptions). E-prime has no bearing on whether or not I'm going to object to doing the work myself.
Neither "Chris always makes deadlines" or "Chris never makes deadlines" are true statements. If we want to evaluate how useful he's going to be in the future, we have to understand his work habits in more specific terms.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 07:49:11 PM
So the boss says "Chris never makes deadlines, let's not hire him to freelance, let's do it in-house." (which is code for "You do it, it'll save us money.")
R-Prime reponse: "And why is it that he never makes deadlines?" <--- Polite yet confrontational tone.
You can't give the bastards an inch. I can almost always talk my boss out of bad decisions by forcing him to explain himself in real terms.
so we agree that in this context, precise language is more useful?
Quote from: Cramulus on June 28, 2010, 07:55:18 PM
so we agree that in this context, precise language is more useful?
Precise language is always more useful. Muddying up terms and "softening" responses with needless subjectivity or assumptions of subjectivity, IMO, gets in the way of precision.
Sure, R Prime can mean that you are occasionally completely wrong (it's your job as a biped to examine things as best as you can to avoid this)...but with E Prime, you're
never completely right.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 07:59:20 PM
you're never completely right. EVER
Better
(also, Irony intended)
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 28, 2010, 08:01:38 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 07:59:20 PM
you're never completely right. EVER
Better
(also, Irony intended)
Well, if a muddy perception of the world is what you're after, far be it from me to get in the way.
And a clear perception is actually possible?... Or is it an illusion?
I find this topic of improving the future to be very thought provoking... I must profess my ignorance as to what E-prime is, if it's simply the realization that most of the things most people say are subjective and time sensitive, then, yeah, I can understand that. I agree with you, Dok, there's a time for stepping on toes, getting in peoples faces and letting them have it full force, but my personal preference is to reserve this tactic as a second to last resort, and instead attempt to understand my enemies, why they may be mad at me, and attempt to correct the issue, for when I make a friend of my enemies, do I not destroy them? (Was that Lincoln who said that? Or did something get scrambled somewhere?)
Whenever I encounter a situation where I feel I am treated unfairly, I start with the assumption that I did/am doing something to provoke the unwanted treatment, and begin going over my memory of what I have done, rather than searching for the problem in other people. More often than not, I'll realize I did something stupid, and I'll attempt to correct it, this usually fixes the problem. If this phase of my problem solving strategy returns nothing, then I will usually ask the parties from whom I perceive as the source of my mistreatment if I did something wrong, or something to upset them, and if there is a way this can be corrected.
If this reply is a stupid, irresponsible, blame everyone else but me kind of reply, guess what, out comes the shotgun, but more often than not, it turns out I overlooked something. In this way, I attempt to encourage peace and harmony among my coworkers and managers, and customers, and they notice, and when someone attempts to slander me, I have allies who stick up for me, make them feel stupid, and reveal them for what they really are.
I can really not afford to conduct myself in any other manner. There are times, yes, where I will get in a superior's face and tell them just how stupid their plan is... Usually, this is actually respected by the superior, and they will make efforts to change their behavior, but this is not a strategy I approach any problem with right off the bat.
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 11:33:41 PM
And a clear perception is actually possible?... Or is it an illusion?
I find this topic of improving the future to be very thought provoking... I must profess my ignorance as to what E-prime is, if it's simply the realization that most of the things most people say are subjective and time sensitive, then, yeah, I can understand that. I agree with you, Dok, there's a time for stepping on toes, getting in peoples faces and letting them have it full force, but my personal preference is to reserve this tactic as a second to last resort, and instead attempt to understand my enemies, why they may be mad at me, and attempt to correct the issue, for when I make a friend of my enemies, do I not destroy them? (Was that Lincoln who said that? Or did something get scrambled somewhere?)
Whenever I encounter a situation where I feel I am treated unfairly, I start with the assumption that I did/am doing something to provoke the unwanted treatment, and begin going over my memory of what I have done, rather than searching for the problem in other people. More often than not, I'll realize I did something stupid, and I'll attempt to correct it, this usually fixes the problem. If this phase of my problem solving strategy returns nothing, then I will usually ask the parties from whom I perceive as the source of my mistreatment if I did something wrong, or something to upset them, and if there is a way this can be corrected.
If this reply is a stupid, irresponsible, blame everyone else but me kind of reply, guess what, out comes the shotgun, but more often than not, it turns out I overlooked something. In this way, I attempt to encourage peace and harmony among my coworkers and managers, and customers, and they notice, and when someone attempts to slander me, I have allies who stick up for me, make them feel stupid, and reveal them for what they really are.
I can really not afford to conduct myself in any other manner. There are times, yes, where I will get in a superior's face and tell them just how stupid their plan is... Usually, this is actually respected by the superior, and they will make efforts to change their behavior, but this is not a strategy I approach any problem with right off the bat.
1. If clear perception is impossible, then I guess we'd better all just head back to the savannah.
2. I always assume Filthy Assistant has done something stupid. I'm usually right.
Where are you drawing these character archetypes from?... As I'd like to understand more about what you are saying.
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 11:42:09 PM
Where are you drawing these character archetypes from?... As I'd like to understand more about what you are saying.
The original "Filthy Assistant" comes from Warren Ellis'
Transmetropolitan, and refers to two beautiful and capable women that the lead character had employed. In my case, it's a 60 year old idiot who fucks up everything he touches, and looks like a diseased frog.
Pix is a member of this board, and a horrible criminal in Southampton, England, who has been known to nail her boyfriend's (also a member of this board) feet to the floor so she could use him as a speed bag for her martial arts training. She is a barbaric member of a barbaric society, and I for one, am glad there is an ocean between us. Also, English people can't survive at my altitude. Their glands are all wrong for it. They'd get halfway through New Mexico and turn blue from anoxia. Later climbers would find her corpse in White Sands Pass, where she'd have carved a paean to the Blood God with her malky, into the very living rock.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 11:50:20 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on June 28, 2010, 11:42:09 PM
Where are you drawing these character archetypes from?... As I'd like to understand more about what you are saying.
The original "Filthy Assistant" comes from Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan, and refers to two beautiful and capable women that the lead character had employed. In my case, it's a 60 year old idiot who fucks up everything he touches, and looks like a diseased frog.
Pix is a member of this board, and a horrible criminal in Southampton, England, who has been known to nail her boyfriend's (also a member of this board) feet to the floor so she could use him as a speed bag for her martial arts training. She is a barbaric member of a barbaric society, and I for one, am glad there is an ocean between us. Also, English people can't survive at my altitude. Their glands are all wrong for it. They'd get halfway through New Mexico and turn blue from anoxia. Later climbers would find her corpse in White Sands Pass, where she'd have carved a paean to the Blood God with her malky, into the very living rock.
I am not an archetype! I am a Pixie! Roger has quite rightly learned to
Fear Me For I Am Pixie, (incidentally my "battle cry for" many years) BTW Rog, has monsoon season showed up yet? Sacrifice needed at my altar maybe? HA!
Anyway the altitude thing is tosh. I was quite happy at 8000ft above sea level, in Flagstaff. It was Phoenix that was oppressive and a concrete suntrap against all laws of nature!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 28, 2010, 04:51:54 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on June 28, 2010, 01:20:05 AM
Hope is easily crushed. It's an internet sport you know. So if you don't have a fully-formed bullet-proof set of plans, it might be better to keep them to a incubative audience until they are mature enough... oops you already posted, good luck ;-)
I see. We are incapable of rendering an honest critique.
Not at all, sorry it came out that way.
Having a hopeful plan requires you to fill in all the steps required to get from here to there. Sometimes you don't have the steps fully defined, or perhaps you are even missing a few. This is common when you start with a goal and work backwards. But the role of the critic is much more easily played in that they need only identify a single missing step, or challenge the solidity of an existing step, to cast doubt upon the whole enterprise.
This speaks to the first point in the OP -- you might as well not even bother with a hopeful plan for the future, because the cards are so incredibly stacked against you. It's all too easy to lose hope, and at certain points, even constructive criticism can be counter-productive if it doesn't fully subscribe to the goal.
The future doesn't want you, it just wants to be a shittier version of the past. And if we all gave up hope, it would be.