:fresh:
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
:kingmeh:
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
oh, wait, sorry....you were being edgy.
i'm guessing he was just looking for an excuse to use the smiley...
what is the proper, or intended use of that emote? (assuming there is one)
on a side note, i'm going to an erotic masquerade tonight. so, i'm happy! :p
Quote from: Iptuous on September 11, 2010, 02:14:34 PM
what is the proper, or intended use of that emote? (assuming there is one)
It's for showing people the proper magnitude of the horrible evils of Will Smith's dance moves.
The twin towers image in the background is just there to create a sense of relative proportion of terror. Like how you'd place a coin or lighter next to an object to give a sense of scale.
ah.
i see... so that particular image serves as an index. i assume the 'smithmove' is in the process for being vetted as the SI base unit of horror?
that image is a fairly large quantity to be the index though.... kind of like a Farad or a Tesla. most measurements will be picoSmithmoves or such i would guess...
also nanosmiths and millismiths.
I would have completely forgotten if someone hadn't brought it up. That would have been nice. I hate the idolatry surrounding the date. It's one thing to quietly remember, another entirely to make it into an almost celebratory spectacle.
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
I would have completely forgotten if someone hadn't brought it up. That would have been nice. I hate the idolatry surrounding the date. It's one thing to quietly remember, another entirely to make it into an almost celebratory spectacle.
And yet another to complain about the spectacle.
And yet yet another another to complain about the complaining about the spectacle. :mrgreen:
And yet yet yet another another another to
rejack the thread back onto the topic of the spectacle by complaining about all the attention the spectacle is getting :kingmeh: :kingmeh: :kingmeh:
rename thread to 'Units of Horror' and thread will be fine.
NO THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT META COMPLAINING.
I HAVE A COLD!
thanks a lot 9/11
Idk, it made me :lulz:
Then :aww:
Then :lulz: again :horrormirth:
Not funny. Not happy.
I give post....-3 stars.
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
:mittens:
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
Excellent.
If this comes to be a "holiday" in the way of Remembrance Day, don't just remember those who fell with the Towers, remember EVERYONE, EVERY soldier, EVERY Red Cross Worker, EVERY shelter volunteer, and like Charley said, every nameless person who has done nothing but selflessly given their time and effort to make the world a better place.
It makes me feel a little better when I don't dwell on my uncle missing half the muscle in his ass because burning debris fell on it as he ran for his life. Or the PTSD he's still going through...what he could be remembering right now. Or my family members in the NYPD who lost their lives. Or I was woken up this morning with a phone call from my sister saying that my mom flew into mania and wouldn't come out of her bedroom this morning unless the TV was off all day...Yep. I'm thinking happy thoughts.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
You are right, Charley. But to elaborate, why don't we remember those people everyday? Why do those people need a special day? So the rest of the year we can forget about them and enjoy our lives? So we can make the appearance of caring when we actually don't? And before this starts getting into my Veteran's Day rant any further, I'll just leave it at that.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 05:31:42 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
You are right, Charley. But to elaborate, why don't we remember those people everyday? Why do those people need a special day? So the rest of the year we can forget about them and enjoy our lives? So we can make the appearance of caring when we actually don't? And before this starts getting into my Veteran's Day rant any further, I'll just leave it at that.
Oh, I agree, this was my pathetic attempt to remove the hate and negativity and the inconsiderate replaying of the videos from 9 years ago. I get ill when I see idiots using the tragedy to further their own selfish goals and I want to take it away from them.
I have the following on my facebook page, feel free to put it on yours.
I do hereby Declare and Announce that from this day forward September 11 shall forever be a day to recognize and remember every person who spends their lives helping others. The ones who live for others. You will never see them on the news, they are nameless and faceless. They seek not glory nor attention. They simply seek to serve.
Quote from: Doktor Princess on September 11, 2010, 05:29:55 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
Excellent.
If this comes to be a "holiday" in the way of Remembrance Day, don't just remember those who fell with the Towers, remember EVERYONE, EVERY soldier, EVERY Red Cross Worker, EVERY shelter volunteer, and like Charley said, every nameless person who has done nothing but selflessly given their time and effort to make the world a better place.
It makes me feel a little better when I don't dwell on my uncle missing half the muscle in his ass because burning debris fell on it as he ran for his life. Or the PTSD he's still going through...what he could be remembering right now. Or my family members in the NYPD who lost their lives. Or I was woken up this morning with a phone call from my sister saying that my mom flew into mania and wouldn't come out of her bedroom this morning unless the TV was off all day...Yep. I'm thinking happy thoughts.
My tv will also be off all day. It's inconsiderate and sickening.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: Doktor Princess on September 11, 2010, 05:29:55 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 05:13:00 PM
Here's a thought. Let's use this day to remember everyone who has lived for others. The nameless and faceless people working on soup lines, the ones working daily to break the poverty cycle with kids. Everyone like these people who do what they do every day and expect nothing in return, except to see some success with the folks they help.
Excellent.
If this comes to be a "holiday" in the way of Remembrance Day, don't just remember those who fell with the Towers, remember EVERYONE, EVERY soldier, EVERY Red Cross Worker, EVERY shelter volunteer, and like Charley said, every nameless person who has done nothing but selflessly given their time and effort to make the world a better place.
It makes me feel a little better when I don't dwell on my uncle missing half the muscle in his ass because burning debris fell on it as he ran for his life. Or the PTSD he's still going through...what he could be remembering right now. Or my family members in the NYPD who lost their lives. Or I was woken up this morning with a phone call from my sister saying that my mom flew into mania and wouldn't come out of her bedroom this morning unless the TV was off all day...Yep. I'm thinking happy thoughts.
My tv will also be off all day. It's inconsiderate and sickening.
I haven't watched TV on 9/11 since 2002.
We already have Veterans day and Memorial day.
C'mon guys. It was a shitty event. There have been lots of shitty events here.
I mean, what about Waco TX day, and Oklahoma City bombing day, I got rear ended day, a teacher was found murdered behind a restaurant day, Pear Harbor day.
I don't mean to sound like a cold hearted dick but frankly, we're never gonna forget about this, and we if wanted to, someone would remind us anyway.
My mom waited on Mohammad Atta at the restaurant we both worked at. He came in a few days before 9/11. Our lives were upside down for a while thanks to the FBI. I'm pretty sure that this was part of what led to the Grand Snap of 2004.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 05:49:26 PM
I haven't watched TV on 9/11 since 2002.
I lived in Manhattan on 9/11/2002. :hanging:
Fuck the FBI.
Quote from: Sir Fronkensteen Cheese Bitch on September 11, 2010, 04:49:11 PM
Idk, it made me :lulz:
Then :aww:
Then :lulz: again :horrormirth:
Eldora, is that you?
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on September 11, 2010, 05:50:09 PM
We already have Veterans day and Memorial day.
C'mon guys. It was a shitty event. There have been lots of shitty events here.
I mean, what about Waco TX day, and Oklahoma City bombing day, I got rear ended day, a teacher was found murdered behind a restaurant day, Pear Harbor day.
I don't mean to sound like a cold hearted dick but frankly, we're never gonna forget about this, and we if wanted to, someone would remind us anyway.
I agree. That's why I don't often read the news regarding it. All the articles read like it is the biggest tragedy in the history of ever, condescend to me like I wasn't aware that it happened, and reinforce negative stereotypes. I have never seen a well written article on 9/11, and television broadcasts are ten times worse. Sure, I was only 12 when it happened. It seemed like it was a big deal, even if I didn't really understand it. But then, I saw what happened in the aftermath.
9/11 is directly responsible for killing my faith in America. And perhaps, more importantly killing my faith in my father. Is it odd that I remember the exact date I lost my innocence? It was December 22, 2001. I went to the movie theater with my family. I don't remember the movie, but I remember what happened there. I didn't notice it until afterwards, in the car when my father told us this. There had been a man in the theater, possibly of Arabic descent, or possibly of Indian descent, dark-haired and dark-skinned either way. My father saw him get up several times and followed him each time. Each time the poor guy was only going to the restroom. My father then explained to us that he was going to prevent a "Terrorist attack", if necessary. Even at 13, I realized that a terrorist attack was very unlikely in a small town of 8,000 in rural Illinois. Poor guy was probably just a student over at SIU and wanted to catch a flick. Of course, that's just a brief summary but it was here that I began to lose faith in my father. I lost faith in America the following year, for largely the same reasons. My faithi n Humanity followed next, and it was about that time I discovered Eris... so, maybe some good came of it.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on September 11, 2010, 05:50:09 PM
Waco TX day
Oklahoma City bombing day
I got rear ended day
a teacher was found murdered behind a restaurant day
Pear Harbor day.
I don't mean to sound like a cold hearted dick day
fixed!!
Well usually I do mean to.
Just not this time.
What seems more significant to me is the fact that it should have made people more aware of the evils of religious extremism, but nobody seems to really mention it, at least with reference to American religious extremism.
Quote from: Sigmatic on September 11, 2010, 06:56:30 PM
What seems more significant to me is the fact that it should have made people more aware of the evils of religious extremism, but nobody seems to really mention it, at least with reference to American religious extremism.
Because Americas is the
right king of extremism.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 06:58:55 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on September 11, 2010, 06:56:30 PM
What seems more significant to me is the fact that it should have made people more aware of the evils of religious extremism, but nobody seems to really mention it, at least with reference to American religious extremism.
Because Americas is the right king of extremism.
I find it amusing that for the most part, in the muslim countries, it's their far right religious extremists calling for war, in Israel, it's their far right religious extremists calling for war, and in our country and a host of other "western" countries, it's far right religious extremists calling for war.
I say let the fuckers kill themselves and let their god sort them out.
Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on September 11, 2010, 07:03:19 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 06:58:55 PM
Quote from: Sigmatic on September 11, 2010, 06:56:30 PM
What seems more significant to me is the fact that it should have made people more aware of the evils of religious extremism, but nobody seems to really mention it, at least with reference to American religious extremism.
Because Americas is the right king of extremism.
I find it amusing that for the most part, in the muslim countries, it's their far right religious extremists calling for war, in Israel, it's their far right religious extremists calling for war, and in our country and a host of other "western" countries, it's far right religious extremists calling for war.
I say let the fuckers kill themselves and let their god sort them out.
It's times like this I look forward to the 2nd coming of Christ. He'll appear, and the masses will bow before him in silence and prayer...waiting for him to speak. When the Lord finally opens his mouth, it'll be something along the lines of, "WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP?!"
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 06:32:02 PM
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on September 11, 2010, 05:50:09 PM
We already have Veterans day and Memorial day.
C'mon guys. It was a shitty event. There have been lots of shitty events here.
I mean, what about Waco TX day, and Oklahoma City bombing day, I got rear ended day, a teacher was found murdered behind a restaurant day, Pear Harbor day.
I don't mean to sound like a cold hearted dick but frankly, we're never gonna forget about this, and we if wanted to, someone would remind us anyway.
I agree. That's why I don't often read the news regarding it. All the articles read like it is the biggest tragedy in the history of ever, condescend to me like I wasn't aware that it happened, and reinforce negative stereotypes. I have never seen a well written article on 9/11, and television broadcasts are ten times worse. Sure, I was only 12 when it happened. It seemed like it was a big deal, even if I didn't really understand it. But then, I saw what happened in the aftermath.
9/11 is directly responsible for killing my faith in America. And perhaps, more importantly killing my faith in my father. Is it odd that I remember the exact date I lost my innocence? It was December 22, 2001. I went to the movie theater with my family. I don't remember the movie, but I remember what happened there. I didn't notice it until afterwards, in the car when my father told us this. There had been a man in the theater, possibly of Arabic descent, or possibly of Indian descent, dark-haired and dark-skinned either way. My father saw him get up several times and followed him each time. Each time the poor guy was only going to the restroom. My father then explained to us that he was going to prevent a "Terrorist attack", if necessary. Even at 13, I realized that a terrorist attack was very unlikely in a small town of 8,000 in rural Illinois. Poor guy was probably just a student over at SIU and wanted to catch a flick. Of course, that's just a brief summary but it was here that I began to lose faith in my father. I lost faith in America the following year, for largely the same reasons. My faithi n Humanity followed next, and it was about that time I discovered Eris... so, maybe some good came of it.
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Bullshit. Chances are your dad was an ass before 9-11. And would have shown himself to be one regardless of whether it happened or not.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on September 11, 2010, 07:30:24 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Bullshit. Chances are your dad was an ass before 9-11. And would have shown himself to be one regardless of whether it happened or not.
This.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on September 11, 2010, 07:30:24 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Bullshit. Chances are your dad was an ass before 9-11. And would have shown himself to be one regardless of whether it happened or not.
Never doubted that. But nevertheless, how it happened is how it happened. Speculating about when and where it would have happened in a world in which the 9/11 shit never happened is pointless isn't it?
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on September 11, 2010, 07:30:24 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Bullshit. Chances are your dad was an ass before 9-11. And would have shown himself to be one regardless of whether it happened or not.
Never doubted that. But nevertheless, how it happened is how it happened. Speculating about when and where it would have happened in a world in which the 9/11 shit never happened is pointless isn't it?
Blaming shit on the "Post 9-11 world" is working so well in every other sphere of life right now, true enough.
9-11 was a shitty event, no question about it. And not just for NYCers and DCers or Americans. It had negative effects on damn near everyone in the world to a greater or lesser extent.
BUT, attributing it even more badness and wrongness than even that is not in any way helpful.
In my opinion, your dad would still have been barely disguised xenophobe, and this is the lesson to take away from it. Conflating that fact with such an easy-to-emote-with thing as the WTC and DC attacks is not in any way truly enlightening for you or for anyone else.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on September 11, 2010, 07:42:06 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Payne on September 11, 2010, 07:30:24 PM
Quote from: phoenixofdiscordia on September 11, 2010, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Vitriol on September 11, 2010, 07:15:31 PM
Faith is overrated, trust me - you're much better off without it.
You are right. I was only relating a story of how I came to be who I am today, and that it was directly related to 9/11.
Bullshit. Chances are your dad was an ass before 9-11. And would have shown himself to be one regardless of whether it happened or not.
Never doubted that. But nevertheless, how it happened is how it happened. Speculating about when and where it would have happened in a world in which the 9/11 shit never happened is pointless isn't it?
Blaming shit on the "Post 9-11 world" is working so well in every other sphere of life right now, true enough.
9-11 was a shitty event, no question about it. And not just for NYCers and DCers or Americans. It had negative effects on damn near everyone in the world to a greater or lesser extent.
BUT, attributing it even more badness and wrongness than even that is not in any way helpful.
In my opinion, your dad would still have been barely disguised xenophobe, and this is the lesson to take away from it. Conflating that fact with such an easy-to-emote-with thing as the WTC and DC attacks is not in any way truly enlightening for you or for anyone else.
No, no you are misunderstanding what I am saying then. I am agreeing with you. I'm not sure how to articulate it, I guess. I don't "blame" 9/11 for anything. It is merely an event that occurred, and while tragic, was not any worse than events that are occurring any other day. I'm not saying my father is an asshole simply because of that one incident, and it's because of 9/11. My father is an asshole because he is a hypocritical, xenophobic, homophobic, misogynistic, manipulative anti-intellectual. My first exposure to it happened in post-9/11 hysteria, but I didn't say he "got caught up" in it.
9/11 wasn't all bad, for me. Of course, I lived approximately 3,000 miles away from it and knew only one person who lives in NYC, and she was pretty far from ground zero. The worst direct effect it had on me was that all the fucking banks closed early, which meant I was unable to cash my paycheck, which meant I was unable to pay my rent, which meant I got a late fee, so I was left without enough money to buy weed that week. Fucking terrorists.
Anyway, the first thing I thought when 9/11 happened was "holy shit that's cool, it looks like a movie!" My next thought was that it was weird how my connection to pop culture was stronger than my empathy for other human beings, which was a valuable realization.
I also expected the US to blow up in a race war within a month, with people killing Arabs in the streets. That didn't happen - aside from a few isolated violent incidents, life went on pretty much as usual. Even in Tucson. This made me realize that the capacity for peace in America was much stronger than I gave it credit for, which is another valuable realization because as I see America slipping toward race wars and religious intolerance even faster now, 9 years after the fact, I am immunized against the idea that 9/11 caused this. It is a cultural shift led by radicals who don't speak for the majority. 9/11 brought many of them out and identified them, which makes avoiding their bullshit that much easier -- also valuable.
So 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but like all tragedies, it is being defined not by what happened but by what those who witnessed and survived it do now that it is in the past. It will mark a turning point in American history, and global history -- whether it is a turn for the worse or for the better is for us to decide now.
It may be semantics, but I feel more that 9-11 is a symbol of that turning point, rather than the turning point itself. But either way, the point stands.
9-11 is being hijacked and turned into a weapon. It's up to us to see that that weapon is powerless.
"Like a frightened child in an angry world", sang The Offspring. A simplification for sure, but it rings true. The first truly major assault on America in America since Pearl Harbour came completely out of the blue for most people and it scared the shit out of them. And the world was and still is angry. More weapons. More righteous milatrism. More crusades. This will not help.
900 first responders have died since 911.
http://vodpod.com/watch/4418861-nine-years-after-911-900-responders-are-dead
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 11, 2010, 08:24:12 PM
900 first responders have died since 911.
http://vodpod.com/watch/4418861-nine-years-after-911-900-responders-are-dead
Yep.
That's unacceptable, that they've been all but abandoned.
The only thing to celebrate today for is my grandfather's eighty-somethingth birthday, so far as I'm concerned. Other than that, it's a day to remember the lives lost and to be grateful to those who tried to save everyone they could (and I agree with Charlie - that should be extended to all those who give without wanting anything in return, everyday). And maybe a day to examine what led to it.
Quote from: Iptuous on September 11, 2010, 03:38:16 PM
rename thread to 'Units of Horror' and thread will be fine.
Sure thing
Quote from: Kai on September 11, 2010, 03:19:55 PM
I would have completely forgotten if someone hadn't brought it up. That would have been nice. I hate the idolatry surrounding the date. It's one thing to quietly remember, another entirely to make it into an almost celebratory spectacle.
Reminds me of my rude reminder, a huge airliner appeared just off the horzion of my friends back yard, probally 45 degrees instead of the 70 plus they are usually at.
Guess boeing was showing off their new dreamliner and did a fly by at husky statium,
but holy shit my hearts still racing like eight hours later. Plus my knee still stings a little when I jumped to the floor
So I take it you guys didn't celebrate 9/11, the Most Sacred Time Of Year, by going to see Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at NineelevenPalooza (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41903.html)? Tickets started at only $65, which I believe is a bargain in these economically troubled times.
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2010, 02:50:20 PM
So I take it you guys didn't celebrate 9/11, the Most Sacred Time Of Year, by going to see Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at NineelevenPalooza (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41903.html)? Tickets started at only $65, which I believe is a bargain in these economically troubled times.
:vom:
I like to retaliate by burning a book that you Americans hold dear, but the only book you care about is Facebook.
http://twitter.com/M_Ahmadinejad/status/24007026734
:lulz:
I nominate this guy for sainthood.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 12, 2010, 03:36:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2010, 02:50:20 PM
So I take it you guys didn't celebrate 9/11, the Most Sacred Time Of Year, by going to see Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at NineelevenPalooza (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41903.html)? Tickets started at only $65, which I believe is a bargain in these economically troubled times.
:vom:
ugggh..
i concur!
:vom:
that's pretty foul..
Quote from: Cain on September 12, 2010, 02:50:20 PM
So I take it you guys didn't celebrate 9/11, the Most Sacred Time Of Year, by going to see Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at NineelevenPalooza (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0910/41903.html)? Tickets started at only $65, which I believe is a bargain in these economically troubled times.
:mittens:
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 11, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
Perpetrated ON Americans. Modern American history is chock full of far larger numbers than that.
Just saying.
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Nine-Eleven.
Nine-Eleven who?
YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET ME!
Quote from: Cain on September 13, 2010, 06:00:22 PM
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Nine-Eleven.
Nine-Eleven who?
YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET ME!
:lulz: and :horrormirth:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 05:36:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 11, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
Perpetrated ON Americans. Modern American history is chock full of far larger numbers than that.
Just saying.
If we define "modern" as "post WW2", I can't think of any single incident that equals it even if you count incidents where we are the perpetrators. In fact, I can't think of anything post-1900 that qualifies that didn't take place during a declared war (IOW, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden don't count).
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 05:36:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 11, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
Perpetrated ON Americans. Modern American history is chock full of far larger numbers than that.
Just saying.
If we define "modern" as "post WW2", I can't think of any single incident that equals it even if you count incidents where we are the perpetrators. In fact, I can't think of anything post-1900 that qualifies that didn't take place during a declared war (IOW, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden don't count).
I can think of a few, if you're willing to accept, for example, 10 years of pillage and mass murder (2 million people) in Vietnam as a single, discreet incident. Or 7 years of systematic destruction in Iraq (death toll unknown, but certainly in excess of a half-million people), done for the purpose of handing out fat no bid contracts (we went to war with someone else for the purpose of looting
ourselves. Imagine that.), in a war that we The People justified because the Iraqis are brown, just like the people that attacked us.
Just because we took our time doing it doesn't mean we didn't kill a few million people for no reason other than we could.
I'm certainly not arguing that point, I'm just saying I was talking about things that took place all at once. I don't know how many people we whacked at Mai Lai (counts, since Vietnam was never a declared war), but I'm pretty sure it was short of 3,000.
Also, a half-million civilian casualties is the highest figure I've heard for Iraq, and certainly not from sources I consider reliable. I don't think there are any of those as far as Iraq is concerned. Perhaps I'm spending too much time around government scumbags, perhaps not, but just because one side is nothing but lies and propaganda doesn't mean the other side is anything less.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
I'm certainly not arguing that point, I'm just saying I was talking about things that took place all at once. I don't know how many people we whacked at Mai Lai (counts, since Vietnam was never a declared war), but I'm pretty sure it was short of 3,000.
Okay. I'm counting what we've done in total.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
Also, a half-million civilian casualties is the highest figure I've heard for Iraq, and certainly not from sources I consider reliable. I don't think there are any of those as far as Iraq is concerned. Perhaps I'm spending too much time around government scumbags, perhaps not, but just because one side is nothing but lies and propaganda doesn't mean the other side is anything less.
I was counting all casualties, from the initial invasion to the present, military and civilian.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:33:24 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 05:36:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 11, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
Perpetrated ON Americans. Modern American history is chock full of far larger numbers than that.
Just saying.
If we define "modern" as "post WW2", I can't think of any single incident that equals it even if you count incidents where we are the perpetrators. In fact, I can't think of anything post-1900 that qualifies that didn't take place during a declared war (IOW, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden don't count).
I can think of a few, if you're willing to accept, for example, 10 years of pillage and mass murder (2 million people) in Vietnam as a single, discreet incident. Or 7 years of systematic destruction in Iraq (death toll unknown, but certainly in excess of a half-million people), done for the purpose of handing out fat no bid contracts (we went to war with someone else for the purpose of looting ourselves. Imagine that.), in a war that we The People justified because the Iraqis are brown, just like the people that attacked us.
Just because we took our time doing it doesn't mean we didn't kill a few million people for no reason other than we could.
Yeah Dok has it right...
The government seems to think if they call it an "incident", "operation" or a "response" the death toll doesn't count.
Also, I count military deaths.
An unjust war kills both military and civilian personnel, and we held the Germans and Japanese accountable for both in 1945. That seems to have changed, as has the viability of the excuse "I was only following orders".
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
If I did that as an employer, I'd be in prison.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:26:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
If I did that as an employer, I'd be in prison.
Damn straight you would be.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:26:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
If I did that as an employer, I'd be in prison.
Damn straight you would be.
But if The People, in the guise of the government, do it...Well, that's okay, isn't it?
That'll fucking teach those ironworkers to mind their fucking business next time.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:28:51 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:26:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
If I did that as an employer, I'd be in prison.
Damn straight you would be.
But if The People, in the guise of the government, do it...Well, that's okay, isn't it?
That'll fucking teach those ironworkers to mind their fucking business next time.
Never trust......oh, fuck it. It has been said so many times I can't bring myself to say it once more.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:30:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:28:51 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 07:26:14 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
If I did that as an employer, I'd be in prison.
Damn straight you would be.
But if The People, in the guise of the government, do it...Well, that's okay, isn't it?
That'll fucking teach those ironworkers to mind their fucking business next time.
Never trust......oh, fuck it. It has been said so many times I can't bring myself to say it once more.
Never trust who?
US. U.S. Them. We the People.
Just.... Never Trust.
Quote from: Doktor Alphapance on September 13, 2010, 07:34:48 PM
Just.... Never Trust.
Not gonna live like that. I'm going to trust Nurse Enabler and Freeky and some of you guys.
And if I get burned, I get burned. Beats the fuck out of being an island.
Dirt will protect you from radiation.
Agent Orange will not hurt you.
Iraq has WMD's.
We are bringing them Democracy.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 06:57:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
I'm certainly not arguing that point, I'm just saying I was talking about things that took place all at once. I don't know how many people we whacked at Mai Lai (counts, since Vietnam was never a declared war), but I'm pretty sure it was short of 3,000.
Okay. I'm counting what we've done in total.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
Also, a half-million civilian casualties is the highest figure I've heard for Iraq, and certainly not from sources I consider reliable. I don't think there are any of those as far as Iraq is concerned. Perhaps I'm spending too much time around government scumbags, perhaps not, but just because one side is nothing but lies and propaganda doesn't mean the other side is anything less.
I was counting all casualties, from the initial invasion to the present, military and civilian.
I know, I'm just disputing that there have been a half-million people killed in Iraq since we invaded. If you have anything resembling a reliable source for that number I'm willing to reconsider.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 08:04:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 06:57:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
I'm certainly not arguing that point, I'm just saying I was talking about things that took place all at once. I don't know how many people we whacked at Mai Lai (counts, since Vietnam was never a declared war), but I'm pretty sure it was short of 3,000.
Okay. I'm counting what we've done in total.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
Also, a half-million civilian casualties is the highest figure I've heard for Iraq, and certainly not from sources I consider reliable. I don't think there are any of those as far as Iraq is concerned. Perhaps I'm spending too much time around government scumbags, perhaps not, but just because one side is nothing but lies and propaganda doesn't mean the other side is anything less.
I was counting all casualties, from the initial invasion to the present, military and civilian.
I know, I'm just disputing that there have been a half-million people killed in Iraq since we invaded. If you have anything resembling a reliable source for that number I'm willing to reconsider.
IIRC, Cain has posted some numbers, and I've seen anything from 30,000 to 2 million civilians. Obviously, both the high and low numbers are partisan bullshit, but if you include the Iraqi military, 500,000 is pretty reasonable. I can't do much searching from this comp, though, so I will retract those numbers until I can get to my laptop.
If I wasn't so bogged down right now I would start a thread about the 50 biggest lies the US Gov't has told this decade.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
answer honestly: If the first responders had been told that the air was NOT OK, how many of them do you think would have waited for respirators before they went in to look for survivors and try to get them out?
I like to think I wouldn't have.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
answer honestly: If the first responders had been told that the air was NOT OK, how many of them do you think would have waited for respirators before they went in to look for survivors and try to get them out?
I like to think I wouldn't have.
I can't answer honestly, because I just don't know. I have seen how people suffer from breathing bad shit like this. It is horrible.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
answer honestly: If the first responders had been told that the air was NOT OK, how many of them do you think would have waited for respirators before they went in to look for survivors and try to get them out?
I like to think I wouldn't have.
I'd like to think I'd be given a chance to make an educated choice.
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 08:07:16 PM
If I wasn't so bogged down right now I would start a thread about the 50 biggest lies the US Gov't has told this decade.
What "government"? Oh, yeah. You and I and everyone we know.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 08:15:10 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 07:07:01 PM
The US told the first responders the air was perfectly fine to breathe.
900 of them have died. This was not a terrorist act, it was the US. Then those people were abandoned to foot all the medical bills.
answer honestly: If the first responders had been told that the air was NOT OK, how many of them do you think would have waited for respirators before they went in to look for survivors and try to get them out?
I like to think I wouldn't have.
I'd like to think I'd be given a chance to make an educated choice.
I would have expected to have been taken care of afterward as well, which I am sure they did.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 08:15:53 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on September 13, 2010, 08:07:16 PM
If I wasn't so bogged down right now I would start a thread about the 50 biggest lies the US Gov't has told this decade.
What "government"? Oh, yeah. You and I and everyone we know.
Me? On! No! I am a shut-out. I have no idea what they are doing, and if I try to probe, well, off to the camps.
Besides, it's like peeling an onion, there's always another layer, the core is unattainable, because when you think it's the last layer then it's all gone.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 08:06:43 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 08:04:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on September 13, 2010, 06:57:40 PM
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
I'm certainly not arguing that point, I'm just saying I was talking about things that took place all at once. I don't know how many people we whacked at Mai Lai (counts, since Vietnam was never a declared war), but I'm pretty sure it was short of 3,000.
Okay. I'm counting what we've done in total.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM
Also, a half-million civilian casualties is the highest figure I've heard for Iraq, and certainly not from sources I consider reliable. I don't think there are any of those as far as Iraq is concerned. Perhaps I'm spending too much time around government scumbags, perhaps not, but just because one side is nothing but lies and propaganda doesn't mean the other side is anything less.
I was counting all casualties, from the initial invasion to the present, military and civilian.
I know, I'm just disputing that there have been a half-million people killed in Iraq since we invaded. If you have anything resembling a reliable source for that number I'm willing to reconsider.
IIRC, Cain has posted some numbers, and I've seen anything from 30,000 to 2 million civilians. Obviously, both the high and low numbers are partisan bullshit, but if you include the Iraqi military, 500,000 is pretty reasonable. I can't do much searching from this comp, though, so I will retract those numbers until I can get to my laptop.
The Lancet study suggests near 600,000 additional deaths (including those dying from lack of medical treatment, due to power cuts, in the lawlessness which followed the immediate invasion etc), but I know it's methodology was questioned (and counter-asserted...repeatedly), so I'm not sure I trust it. Most estimates put civilian casualties between 95,000-110,000 since the occupation began. Roughly 12,000 Iraqi soldiers and security forces have snuffed it since then. 1300 contractors.
The US military doesn't "do" bodycounts (when it is winning), so we don't know how many Iraqi soldiers died during the invasion. Gen Tommy Franks claims 30,000, but that sounds like bullshit to me. The Project on Defense Alternatives at Commonwealth Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts gives us the more reasonable estimate of somewhere between 7,600 and 10,800 Iraqi combatant and civilian fatalities during the war itself.
Adding that up, plus throwing in 4000 odd US troops, we get a conservative estimate of about 120,000, given I rounded down a few of these numbers to the nearest thousand.
Thank you, Cain.
No problem. If anyone does have a strong opinion on the Lancet report though, I'd like them to say so. It just seems too contested for me to include, currently, and I don't want the headache of sorting through the statistical and methodological aspects of the damn thing to figure out the truth. I'm open to being persuaded either way, I guess I'm saying.
Quote from: Exit City Hustle on September 11, 2010, 12:01:09 PM
to elaborate, I'm not sure why mass murder on an unprecedented scale in modern American history is either "happy" or reason for lulz.
Actually I disagree, I think its time for celebration like those three mossad agents* (http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a091604israelissue) found about as far away as the new ground zero mosque. I wish brown to be right that it becomes a day to be something bigger then just one person one act, fuck one anything. For better or worse someone about as crazy as the Manson family attacked this country and its was like pearl harbor all over again but instead of some rising sun to be able to point at as some enemy well we have only our own shadows. Its not like we didn't know it wasn't just a drill, most laughted off y2k but there was some divine like warning the millennium* (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html?pd=1&a=1552790304) something bad was going to happen. Who knew? Some say we should have saw it coming when the top FBI agent in charge of counter terrorist let his briefcase get stolen just prior to the attacks* (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/john-oneill-729441.html). Top secret files lost in the wind like it was a missing child on the side of a milk carton and only thing that happened was one man fired. But to tell you the truth some people did see this coming and made a shit ton of money from it. Even better some are attempting to use it to make tea and revolution but all its really doing is allowing themselves to be tarred and feathered
Yeah it sucked people died, but it sucks more THAT it takes a wrestler for people to find out the real reason the blackbox is missing* (http://youtu.be/JqewYask17o) is because the pilots were speaking Arabic just after the plane took off. Maybe this is why NORAD really didn't fly out to greet the hijackers in time, as maybe they thought they were dealing with a ransom not a Kamikaze pilot.
Eta. Fixed grammer and added footnotes
I think it's time to put this shit to bed.
What the fuck is this shit?! Seriously? :roll: