Today, as I was reading an anthology of short stories by other transgender folk, I realized that some of the basic principles of Discordianism applied as the essential positives of transsexuality. Discordianism states that, rather than scorning strife and discord, we should embrace it as a driving force for enacting positive change. It's also about deconstructing basic issues and assumptions of systems in order to use them for your benefit. In this, Discordianism and transsexuality come together.
All transsexuals are astoundingly tough individuals and not necessarily through inherent personality, but through basic necessity of our transsexuality. We are tough because our environment demands that we be tough. Another benefit of transsexuality is our ability to gain insight towards how gender works. While others see gender as simply something that is, we get to see the inner workings. Our transsexuality has given us a backstage pass to gender. Which is not to say that gender is nothing but performance. No, gender is a very complicated beast, but only we see that. And some of us see this machine and start pulling levers and throwing switches in ways that others can't. They just see the shiny smooth business end of it.
CT Whitley, a trans man in a corporate office, did just that. He manipulated gendered behaviors to advance up the corporate ladder by understanding the crucial social interactions and speech patterns of both men and women and was able to switch between them depending on who he was talking to. As a result, we was known as the best communicator in the office, and served as a crucial bridge between the women and men in the office, especially in times of stress. The best part is no one even knew that he was doing that. All they saw were the results.
People often assume that transsexuals are timid, shy creatures, terrified of being found out and poked and prodded. I've found that the opposite is true. When I was a boy, my self-confidence was nil. I never got a real date, and it was during that period that I was worried about being found out. When I came out, that was the very peak of self-confidence. In fact, I found my first girlfriend just a month after coming out.
Us trans folk have a special confidence in our gender because, rather than being handed it at birth, like someone handing you a cup of pre-made soup at the store, we have hand crafted ours. For us, gender isn't some lukewarm thing that just happened, it is a fiery passion piece that we have made our own. We aren't confident in spite of the strife of others, we are confident because of it. Transsexuality isn't a curse, birth defect, or mental disorder. It's a goddamn blessing.
Um.
Being born rich is a blessing.
Being born outside of equatorial Africa is a blessing.
That thing the pope does from his balcony is a blessing.
Your sexual orientation is about as much a blessing as being right or left handed.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
Um.
Being born rich is a blessing.
Being born outside of equatorial Africa is a blessing.
That thing the pope does from his balcony is a blessing.
Your sexual orientation is about as much a blessing as being right or left handed.
Still, seeing it as a blessing, as misguided as that is, is better than seeing it as a curse.
But then, isn't that just letting the mainstream decide your thinking for you anyway?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
Um.
Being born rich is a blessing.
Being born outside of equatorial Africa is a blessing.
That thing the pope does from his balcony is a blessing.
Your sexual orientation is about as much a blessing as being right or left handed.
Transexualism isn't a sexual orientation, it's a gender orientation.
The backstage pass to gender part could be considered a blessing. Having to be tough is generally considered a curse, even if being tough is a good thing. After all, trans folks who aren't tough tend to end up dead.
The concept of transgenderism is a product that was sold to you along with color-coded science kits for girls. Gender itself is a product. Congratulations, you bought it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
Um.
Being born rich is a blessing.
Being born outside of equatorial Africa is a blessing.
That thing the pope does from his balcony is a blessing.
Your sexual orientation is about as much a blessing as being right or left handed.
What I'm arguing is that having spent male identified for 20 years and then having the switch to female has given me a unique viewpoint of male and female perspectives. I find this rare bit of knowledge to be a blessing (not in a religious sense, but as more of a luck based thing)
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
The concept of transgenderism is a product that was sold to you along with color-coded science kits for girls. Gender itself is a product. Congratulations, you bought it.
This is an entirely false concept. While gender is highly exaggerated by society and certainly someone can act out being a boy or girl, there is definitely an innate sense of boy or girl for the majority of people. Many others don't have this sense and do fall out of the male/female spectrum. Gender is way too complicated to attribute to one source and there is still far more that is unknown compared to what is known.
Saying that transgenderism is merely a product and that all trans people are dupes for buying it is incredibly insensitive to the sense of wrongness that is dealt with on a constant basis before coming out.
I can say this with certainty because my gender identity switched completely about 2 years ago. There was no trigger for it and it was a very explicit feeling. It's really hard to properly emphasize how profound this change because most people are born with matching identity and body and never change from that. It becomes a really hard concept to grapple with because there is nothing to compare it to. An overly cliched analogy would be comparing it to attempting to describe water to a fish.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 14, 2011, 09:33:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 08:21:06 PM
The concept of transgenderism is a product that was sold to you along with color-coded science kits for girls. Gender itself is a product. Congratulations, you bought it.
This is an entirely false concept. While gender is highly exaggerated by society and certainly someone can act out being a boy or girl, there is definitely an innate sense of boy or girl for the majority of people. Many others don't have this sense and do fall out of the male/female spectrum. Gender is way too complicated to attribute to one source and there is still far more that is unknown compared to what is known.
Saying that transgenderism is merely a product and that all trans people are dupes for buying it is incredibly insensitive to the sense of wrongness that is dealt with on a constant basis before coming out.
I can say this with certainty because my gender identity switched completely about 2 years ago. There was no trigger for it and it was a very explicit feeling. It's really hard to properly emphasize how profound this change because most people are born with matching identity and body and never change from that. It becomes a really hard concept to grapple with because there is nothing to compare it to. An overly cliched analogy would be comparing it to attempting to describe water to a fish.
And I'm really a dragon.
Inside.
Listen, I don't disagree with you about the sense of wrongness and the suffering that people have to deal with due to a stupid society that tries to force girls into a girl-shaped box and boys into a boy-shaped box. What I am saying is that the idea that your body and your "self" don't match is a part of the institutionalized social product. Yes, it's a real disorder; one that has been manufactured. You can be a pretty princess with boyparts and a bad, bad man with girlparts (ask me how I know) but your body is your real body. Just as I am not "really" five feet eleven with silken blonde hair and a sweet double d rack, I am also not "really" a dongled person inside and I think that the manufacture and sale of transsexuality is a crime against humanity that results in far more anguish and suffering than if people were encouraged to simply grow up being who they are instead of thinking they need to have certain bits sliced off in order to fit into that fucking box.
I feel like we're defining things differently and that's causing some confusion. What is your definition of transsexuality? How about transgenderism? Or gender for that matter?
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 14, 2011, 08:12:00 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 14, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
Um.
Being born rich is a blessing.
Being born outside of equatorial Africa is a blessing.
That thing the pope does from his balcony is a blessing.
Your sexual orientation is about as much a blessing as being right or left handed.
Transexualism isn't a sexual orientation, it's a gender orientation.
The backstage pass to gender part could be considered a blessing. Having to be tough is generally considered a curse, even if being tough is a good thing. After all, trans folks who aren't tough tend to end up dead.
Sorry, BH, I don't consider you as being an authority on the subject, seeing as you're a snuff freak.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 14, 2011, 09:56:09 PM
I feel like we're defining things differently and that's causing some confusion. What is your definition of transsexuality? How about transgenderism? Or gender for that matter?
I think that's up to you.
What I'm saying is, it's an attribute of a person, not a definition.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 14, 2011, 09:56:09 PM
I feel like we're defining things differently and that's causing some confusion. What is your definition of transsexuality? How about transgenderism? Or gender for that matter?
I wish search still worked, I've written about this before at length and I don't really feel like doing it again.
Simply, gender is the assignment of certain behaviors to the "girl" box and the "boy" box. I first started questioning transgenderism when I first became aware of two facts: One, that the trannies I know are profoundly miserable and deeply neurotic attention-whores who are, not unsurprisingly, not made happy by having gender reassignment surgery, and two, that in order to qualify for the transitional surgeries you have to "live like" the sex you're transitioning to for a year.
Whatever the fuck that means. What does that even mean?
I started thinking about what that means, and I concluded that, for the purposes of sex reassignment surgery, I do not, in fact, live like a woman. Which must mean that according to the psychiatric definition of being female gendered, I am not actually a woman. Neither are any of the other women I know, either gay or straight.
The farther you go down that fucking rabbit hole, the less it makes sense. And you have people doing profoundly destructive (and expensive) things to their bodies because they have become convinced that they have a real disorder, which is that their bodies don't match their "real" identities. This is not dissimilar to the "beauty" product that women have been oppressed with, and it's a lot more destructive.
My feeling is, you can be "really" girl gendered and boy bodied or boy gendered and girl bodied. It's not that your body doesn't match your self, it's that fuck them for telling you it doesn't. Live your life the way you want to live it, and take care of the precious healthy body you have. Boy or girl, it's the only one you're getting and it's your real body.
Quote from: Nigel on December 14, 2011, 10:35:00 PM
Live your life the way you want to live it, and take care of the precious healthy body you have. Boy or girl, it's the only one you're getting and it's your real body.
This, right here.
And don't go fucking around with hormones.
I need to leave, so I'll give my definitions and come back to this thread later tonight.
My definition of transsexuality is the phenomenon when someone who is male-bodied feels an innate sense of femaleness or who is female-bodied feels an innate sense of maleness. This does not mean that any means of transition (cross-dressing, hormones, numerous surgeries) has taken place.
Transgenderism is any person who goes against mainstream gender ideas. This includes cross-dressers, transsexuals, transvestites, drag kings, drag queens, genderqueer people, and any whom identify as either neither or both male and female, or those who reject the male/female spectrum entirely.
Gender is a lot harder to define. For instance, I make a distinction between femaleness and femininity and maleness and masculinity. Another hard point is regardless of one's sex or gender identity, society gives one a gender. It becomes necessary to then split it into personal gender and perceived gender with personal gender tied towards either femaleness or maleness. Perceived gender is determined through both femaleness/maleness and femininity/masculinity.
I can't stress it enough that these are my personal definitions and not anything absolutely official. Because of how immensely misunderstood gender, and anything to do with gender is, everyone is entitled to their own definitions of these things. However, if any good discussion is going to occur, it's necessary to present these definitions.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 14, 2011, 07:54:36 PM
Us trans folk have a special confidence in our gender because, rather than being handed it at birth, like someone handing you a cup of pre-made soup at the store, we have hand crafted ours. For us, gender isn't some lukewarm thing that just happened, it is a fiery passion piece that we have made our own. We aren't confident in spite of the strife of others, we are confident because of it. Transsexuality isn't a curse, birth defect, or mental disorder. It's a goddamn blessing.
That's awesome that this whole thing has been such a positive growth process for you. I can see what you mean about having some chords with discordia -- you're making a conscious decision to escape a default setting that most people probably aren't aware of. If this way of looking at gender / yourself helped you become the person you want to be, that rocks, and it
is a blessing.
I have to disagree with the "I'm a dragon inside" analogy.
That doesn't fit the situation. Transsexuals aren't getting their bodies changed into another species. It's possible that a person's brain can be wired more like their opposite sex. Studies have shown that gay men tend to have minds that process information in a strikingly similar way as straight women. To me, this strongly suggests a biological basis for sexual preference and personality.
Combine this with phantom limb disorders that occur in amputees and there's a decent case for transsexual brains that have a similar kind of unusual wiring. For people with phantom limbs the issue usually is pain in a body part they no longer have. I think it's conceivable that transsexuals could be born with brains that believe on some level that they have different sex organs in the same way that amputee brains believe they have a body part that they do not.
Consciously, you can say, of course I don't have my arm any more, or of course I don't have a vagina, but problems crop up when the brain keeps sending signals that are saying, yes you do.
It's probably wise to avoid any sort of surgery on your sex organs, I agree. But I don't think sex reassignment surgery is akin to becoming a dragon. It's not a fitting analogy.
I'm talking about transgender stuff here, not transsexuals.
On one side:
There is in many of our cultures, with varying degrees, a solid line that seeks to divide what is male and female. It's easily seen that anything that crosses that line is often treated with hostility or casual contempt, most especially anything that undoes what is considered MANLY. That line doesn't really exist. Then again, it can lead to real life, barstool shaped impacts on a person's life.
For many ignorant people it is a matter of wearing the "wrong" kind of clothes. The "wrongness" is the only wrong part. You wear and talk and dress the way you want, the way that feels right to you.
This should be fully permissible within our society and it's kind of absurd that any kind of opposition towards this exists.
On the other side:
It's not who you are. It doesn't make you you. Your actions make you you, don't they? It's as foolish to grasp onto it as any other kind identity you slap on yourself to feel warm and comfortable in a cold, hostile universe.
Also:
Of course, there is the rage. Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world. (Though plenty of people have to be tough for a variety of reasons.) It is unjust that people more or less get free reign to unload their hate on such easily identifiable targets. It's safe to say many in American culture are ignorant when it comes to gender.
The people who feel most at ease when they act and dress "wrong" are doing it naturally, they're not the one's who draw the lines and bring the hammer down on anyone who steps over it.
The people who draw those lines are the one who need to deal with it.
Putting ourselves, or others, through some kind of filter, with a neat identity (as "miscellaneous" as it may be) isn't the way to fix it.
THEY started making sides, THEY drew the line.
WE do what we feel like (within reason) when we feel like it. WE enjoy and protect ourselves and THEY eat a shit sandwich.
Or whatever so long as they STFU and GTFO.
^Could not have put it better myself.
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
I'm talking about transgender stuff here, not transsexuals.
On one side:
There is in many of our cultures, with varying degrees, a solid line that seeks to divide what is male and female. It's easily seen that anything that crosses that line is often treated with hostility or casual contempt, most especially anything that undoes what is considered MANLY. That line doesn't really exist. Then again, it can lead to real life, barstool shaped impacts on a person's life.
For many ignorant people it is a matter of wearing the "wrong" kind of clothes. The "wrongness" is the only wrong part. You wear and talk and dress the way you want, the way that feels right to you.
This should be fully permissible within our society and it's kind of absurd that any kind of opposition towards this exists.
On the other side:
It's not who you are. It doesn't make you you. Your actions make you you, don't they? It's as foolish to grasp onto it as any other kind identity you slap on yourself to feel warm and comfortable in a cold, hostile universe.
Also:
Of course, there is the rage. Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world. (Though plenty of people have to be tough for a variety of reasons.) It is unjust that people more or less get free reign to unload their hate on such easily identifiable targets. It's safe to say many in American culture are ignorant when it comes to gender.
The people who feel most at ease when they act and dress "wrong" are doing it naturally, they're not the one's who draw the lines and bring the hammer down on anyone who steps over it.
The people who draw those lines are the one who need to deal with it.
Putting ourselves, or others, through some kind of filter, with a neat identity (as "miscellaneous" as it may be) isn't the way to fix it.
THEY started making sides, THEY drew the line.
WE do what we feel like (within reason) when we feel like it. WE enjoy and protect ourselves and THEY eat a shit sandwich.
Or whatever so long as they STFU and GTFO.
:mittens:
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world.
Your world is defective.
This should be remedied.
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
I'm talking about transgender stuff here, not transsexuals.
On one side:
There is in many of our cultures, with varying degrees, a solid line that seeks to divide what is male and female. It's easily seen that anything that crosses that line is often treated with hostility or casual contempt, most especially anything that undoes what is considered MANLY. That line doesn't really exist. Then again, it can lead to real life, barstool shaped impacts on a person's life.
For many ignorant people it is a matter of wearing the "wrong" kind of clothes. The "wrongness" is the only wrong part. You wear and talk and dress the way you want, the way that feels right to you.
This should be fully permissible within our society and it's kind of absurd that any kind of opposition towards this exists.
On the other side:
It's not who you are. It doesn't make you you. Your actions make you you, don't they? It's as foolish to grasp onto it as any other kind identity you slap on yourself to feel warm and comfortable in a cold, hostile universe.
Also:
Of course, there is the rage. Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world. (Though plenty of people have to be tough for a variety of reasons.) It is unjust that people more or less get free reign to unload their hate on such easily identifiable targets. It's safe to say many in American culture are ignorant when it comes to gender.
The people who feel most at ease when they act and dress "wrong" are doing it naturally, they're not the one's who draw the lines and bring the hammer down on anyone who steps over it.
The people who draw those lines are the one who need to deal with it.
Putting ourselves, or others, through some kind of filter, with a neat identity (as "miscellaneous" as it may be) isn't the way to fix it.
THEY started making sides, THEY drew the line.
WE do what we feel like (within reason) when we feel like it. WE enjoy and protect ourselves and THEY eat a shit sandwich.
Or whatever so long as they STFU and GTFO.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:10:44 AM
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world.
Your world is defective.
This should be remedied.
I agree, Roger. You should send me Dok Howl's bones so that I can go all Gloria Frankenstein on him and then we can work on that.
Alty, that was maginificently written.
I think that Zenpeanut's definition is exactly what Nigel was talking about, with the gender shaped boxes. I would expand, but FUCKING HELL this network is
s l o o o o o o o w .
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 12:18:41 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:10:44 AM
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world.
Your world is defective.
This should be remedied.
I agree, Roger. You should send me Dok Howl's bones so that I can go all Gloria Frankenstein on him and then we can work on that.
Well, I can't, because someone's using them
1. But I know what he'd say, if he were alive. He'd say, "Wipe out the primates and start over." Looking around, I have to agree. The world you people live in is substandard.
1 I can't say what they're being used for, because of the Mann Act.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:24:38 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 12:18:41 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 12:10:44 AM
Quote from: Alty on December 14, 2011, 11:07:33 PM
Yeah, queer people frequently have to be tough to deal with the world.
Your world is defective.
This should be remedied.
I agree, Roger. You should send me Dok Howl's bones so that I can go all Gloria Frankenstein on him and then we can work on that.
Well, I can't, because someone's using them1. But I know what he'd say, if he were alive. He'd say, "Wipe out the primates and start over." Looking around, I have to agree. The world you people live in is substandard.
1 I can't say what they're being used for, because of the Mann Act.
I certainly concur, and I think the device he was working on before his untimely accident would be perfect for this. However, I do not fully understand how it works, and it seems my fellow Doktors have all disappeared in recent months. Perhaps i should consult with the Dark Empress on its application...
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals. As such, they're inadequate for really understanding trans issues. The "one year" requirement definitely is ridiculous in its requirements. They've improved over time, certainly, but it's still an unreasonable requirement. (It used to be that wearing pants, or being anything but extremely feminine, would be grounds for denial.)
Having said that, I hate that SRS becomes such a huge focus. Tons of trans people don't do it and are perfectly happy. Having a penis doesn't make anyone a man just the same as having a vagina and vulva doesn't make anyone a woman. However, some people honestly do need SRS to feel comfortable with themselves. And it doesn't always have to do with societal pressure to do so. Often times, they can't get past their uncomfortableness over their current genitals to enjoy sex. SRS, in this case, enables them to have a comfortable relationship.
Another issue is pursuing legal status in your sexual identity. Many states require SRS before granting any sort of legal change in gender. This leads to dangers such as a trans woman being put into an all-male prison. Luckily, this situation is slowly changing as states are changing their laws. I believe my state (Washington) just recently changed their law away from this practice as late as last September.
As far as the transsexuals that you have met, I can't really speak for them. I do know that many are more than satisfied with their SRS and seem like supremely awesome people. I would also like to state that I don't think of SRS lightly. It is a step of transition that is only for "extreme" cases of dysphoria and I really don't think I need it. It really comes down to understanding the risks involved with a botched operation and the limitations of even a perfect surgery and weighing those out against the benefits. For some, it is well worth the risk, and for others, it isn't. I don't feel I need it to be comfortable with myself personally, but I won't begrudge anyone else who thinks otherwise.
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period. When hormones are taken, you also immediately know if they are right or not. If they are, you end up feeling far less dysphoria and a lot more comfortable. If not, they'll make you feel terrible and then you stop. Keep in mind that this is entirely anecdotal and, while I have begun the waiting period to get them, I haven't ever taken them yet. This description is given by multiple people trans people though.
One other issue that I'm seeing is that when I say that I identify as a woman, I don't mean that I focus on making myself as feminine as possible. While I was pretty feminine compared to many other guys when I was a boy, I'm not all that feminine of a girl. While I do feel a lot more comfortable in feminine clothing, I still curse a lot. I still have a competitive bent often times. When I say I identify as a woman, that doesn't mean I want to be overtly feminine. If I wanted that, I would just be an effeminate man.
Now for Alty. I completely agree with you. A huge part of remaining sane during this past year is not diverting head space to fuck heads who won't accept me. It's simply a the ability to recognize that you shouldn't give a damn if someone whom you don't like anyway, doesn't like you. It's just not worth the time, effort, and thought to worry about bigots accepting you.
As for your point on transgenderism determining someone's identity, as I said for Nigel, my femaleness doesn't govern me. My personality has remained constant throughout my life and won't change in the foreseeable future. My coming out and changing appearances a year ago was me showing how I honestly felt. My pretending to be a boy for nearly a year after my gender identity switched was what felt entirely overwhelming. My coming out felt more like a freeing of my ability to be myself rather than as latching onto one identity.
On a side note, you mentioned the absurdity of the opposition towards this, you wouldn't believe how goddamn hilarious it is to watch people lose their shit over me just existing. Like when I walked onto a bus, this one guy leaped up screaming "faggot faggot" again and again and asking the bus driver if she saw that a man was wearing a dress. He ended up getting off at the next stop. my transsexuality makes for the easiest real life trolling ever. It's the equivalent to just registering onto a forum and without even doing anything, having someone throw up a 10 page thread saying how terrible you are.
Also Cramulus, thanks. It took a whole lot of thinking and rethinking to get the nerve to finally write up the letter. Well, that and more anxiety and stress than anyone could imagine. I'm just happy I live in Seattle, which is comparatively cool with this sort of thing than elsewhere.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
One other issue that I'm seeing is that when I say that I identify as a woman, I don't mean that I focus on making myself as feminine as possible. While I was pretty feminine compared to many other guys when I was a boy, I'm not all that feminine of a girl. While I do feel a lot more comfortable in feminine clothing, I still curse a lot. I still have a competitive bent often times. When I say I identify as a woman, that doesn't mean I want to be overtly feminine. If I wanted that, I would just be an effeminate man.
Sure is a pink tool box ya got there. Did it come with a hoop skirt?
And if I have to be a label, then it's fucking "asshat".
Fucking weird ass catagorizing bullshit this religion is going straight to hell in a space shuttle why in my day
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 03:50:25 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
One other issue that I'm seeing is that when I say that I identify as a woman, I don't mean that I focus on making myself as feminine as possible. While I was pretty feminine compared to many other guys when I was a boy, I'm not all that feminine of a girl. While I do feel a lot more comfortable in feminine clothing, I still curse a lot. I still have a competitive bent often times. When I say I identify as a woman, that doesn't mean I want to be overtly feminine. If I wanted that, I would just be an effeminate man.
Sure is a pink tool box ya got there. Did it come with a hoop skirt?
You
are
a
bad
person
:lulz:
:thanks:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:48:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
I agree, Roger but you know pople and their love of labels. Obsession, I tells ya. Streamlined communication my ass! It just complicates ideas.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:54:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:48:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
I agree, Roger but you know pople and their love of labels. Obsession, I tells ya. Streamlined communication my ass! It just complicates ideas.
It seems like an effort to jargonize the subject, by which I mean add an air of legitimacy via poor communication. My boss does that. It pains me.
And there's no need to lend legitimacy to what a person chooses to do to or with their own body, right? I mean, am I just being silly here? I was lost at "genderqueer".
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 03:51:32 AM
:thanks:
I am starting to rub off on you. :lulz:
I advise turpentine and a pressure washer, stat.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:56:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:54:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:48:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
I agree, Roger but you know pople and their love of labels. Obsession, I tells ya. Streamlined communication my ass! It just complicates ideas.
It seems like an effort to jargonize the subject, by which I mean add an air of legitimacy via poor communication. My boss does that. It pains me.
And there's no need to lend legitimacy to what a person chooses to do to or with their own body, right? I mean, am I just being silly here? I was lost at "genderqueer".
Yeah, the problem is that people, especially those in certain fields that start with "psychology" and end with.... "psychology", really, really, like to make up words and labels.
And unfortunately, Roger, not so many people like to keep it as simple as you. They want their "rules", and their "taboos", and their jargonized bullshit. Because that totally means something, damn it! :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 04:01:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:56:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:54:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:48:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
I agree, Roger but you know pople and their love of labels. Obsession, I tells ya. Streamlined communication my ass! It just complicates ideas.
It seems like an effort to jargonize the subject, by which I mean add an air of legitimacy via poor communication. My boss does that. It pains me.
And there's no need to lend legitimacy to what a person chooses to do to or with their own body, right? I mean, am I just being silly here? I was lost at "genderqueer".
Yeah, the problem is that people, especially those in certain fields that start with "psychology" and end with.... "psychology", really, really, like to make up words and labels.
And unfortunately, Roger, not so many people like to keep it as simple as you. They want their "rules", and their "taboos", and their jargonized bullshit. Because that totally means something, damn it! :lulz:
No, they also do it in the corporate sector.
YOU HEAR ME, JIM? "ACTIONIZE" IS NOT A FUCKING VERB. IT IS NOT EVEN A FUCKING WORD.
And yes, things are almost always simple. Until people decide they aren't.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:02:11 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 04:01:02 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:56:26 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:54:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:48:40 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
Fuck that shit. I'm a people. Someone else can be one of these fucking labels.
I agree, Roger but you know pople and their love of labels. Obsession, I tells ya. Streamlined communication my ass! It just complicates ideas.
It seems like an effort to jargonize the subject, by which I mean add an air of legitimacy via poor communication. My boss does that. It pains me.
And there's no need to lend legitimacy to what a person chooses to do to or with their own body, right? I mean, am I just being silly here? I was lost at "genderqueer".
Yeah, the problem is that people, especially those in certain fields that start with "psychology" and end with.... "psychology", really, really, like to make up words and labels.
And unfortunately, Roger, not so many people like to keep it as simple as you. They want their "rules", and their "taboos", and their jargonized bullshit. Because that totally means something, damn it! :lulz:
No, they also do it in the corporate sector.
YOU HEAR ME, JIM? "ACTIONIZE" IS NOT A FUCKING VERB. IT IS NOT EVEN A FUCKING WORD.
And yes, things are almost always simple. Until people decide they aren't.
Actionize? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Yeah, it is a species wide problem, I agree. Why can't people just be people, and do what people fucking do? :argh!:
I really don't get it.
People are by definition not all the same. There is no need to try to make groups of them the same by inventing catagories.
I AM A FUCKING PEOPLE. DOKTOR ZERO IS A FUCKING PEOPLE. ZENPEANUT IS A FUCKING PEOPLE. If that doesn't make you special enough, then the problem isn't with society, the problem is IN YOUR HEAD1. Also, Agent Garbo is a people, but she does things. Terrible things. People still talk about them, but never when she's around.
1 However, the lesson of Matthew Shepherd should be kept in mind while around yahoos.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 04:04:15 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:58:13 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 03:51:32 AM
:thanks:
I am starting to rub off on you. :lulz:
I advise turpentine and a pressure washer, stat.
I can only hope that's enough.
I was talking about ME. YOU just need something to get my horrible hair off the furniture before your cat goes allergic.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:06:32 AM
I really don't get it.
People are by definition not all the same. There is no need to try to make groups of them the same by inventing catagories.
I AM A FUCKING PEOPLE. DOKTOR ZERO IS A FUCKING PEOPLE. ZENPEANUT IS A FUCKING PEOPLE. If that doesn't make you special enough, then the problem isn't with society, the problem is IN YOUR HEAD1. Also, Agent Garbo is a people, but she does things. Terrible things. People still talk about them, but never when she's around.
1 However, the lesson of Matthew Shepherd should be kept in mind while around yahoos.
I think Mr. Swift's description of the Yahoo is applicable to a far larger portion of the population than he might have thought, as unfortunate as that is.
But Roger, you are certainly riding the correct Houyhnhnm with your position.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 04:13:02 AM
But Roger, you are certainly riding the correct Houyhnhnm with your position.
You can't prove a fucking thing.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:14:00 AM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 04:13:02 AM
But Roger, you are certainly riding the correct Houyhnhnm with your position.
You can't prove a fucking thing.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I need to read Gulliver's Travels again, I see.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:07:26 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 04:04:15 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:58:13 AM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 03:51:32 AM
:thanks:
I am starting to rub off on you. :lulz:
I advise turpentine and a pressure washer, stat.
I can only hope that's enough.
I was talking about ME. YOU just need something to get my horrible hair off the furniture before your cat goes allergic.
That would explain her sneeze just now.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 04:06:32 AM
Also, Agent Garbo is a people, but she does things. Terrible things. People still talk about them, but never when she's around.
:lulz:
Yeah, fuck it. Nevermind. I tried putting some sort of a positive thought and story to a topic drowning in tales of legitimate people either getting raped and beaten to death or jumping off a cliff because of all the tales of people getting raped and beaten to death. I should have realized it would have taken a turn into talking about how identity and labels don't matter despite the fact that in order for rights to be given or for proper recognition, you need some sort of a flag to run with.
If anything, I'd say the barstool applies to that. It's lunacy to think that labels don't matter, when in reality, they determine whether I get to be a human or a sub-human.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 04:24:48 AM
in order for rights to be given or for proper recognition, you need some sort of a flag to run with.
No you don't. That is monkey conditioning. Flags are the first step to losing your freedom, not gaining it.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 04:24:48 AMIf anything, I'd say the barstool applies to that. It's lunacy to think that labels don't matter, when in reality, they determine whether I get to be a human or a sub-human.
No, you do that.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 04:24:48 AM
Yeah, fuck it. Nevermind. I tried putting some sort of a positive thought and story to a topic drowning in tales of legitimate people either getting raped and beaten to death or jumping off a cliff because of all the tales of people getting raped and beaten to death. I should have realized it would have taken a turn into talking about how identity and labels don't matter despite the fact that in order for rights to be given or for proper recognition, you need some sort of a flag to run with.
I just went back and re-read the OP, and that's not not really the impression I got. It sounded to me like a vague link to Discordianism with some thought about crafting your gender and the various benefits you get from it, as well as "horray! self confidence!".
But like Rog said, you decide whether you get to be human or not. The way you act and regard yourself influences, at least to some degree, the way other people treat you.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 04:24:48 AM
Yeah, fuck it. Nevermind. I tried putting some sort of a positive thought and story to a topic drowning in tales of legitimate people either getting raped and beaten to death or jumping off a cliff because of all the tales of people getting raped and beaten to death. I should have realized it would have taken a turn into talking about how identity and labels don't matter despite the fact that in order for rights to be given or for proper recognition, you need some sort of a flag to run with.
If anything, I'd say the barstool applies to that. It's lunacy to think that labels don't matter, when in reality, they determine whether I get to be a human or a sub-human.
Hey, i liked your story and your message. And I'm in the same boat you are. And call me a lunatic, but labels are just words. They don't determine shit.
I'm not trying to invalidate your experience as a trans person, and I don't think anyone else is either. Personally, I just poked at your concept of "feminine" behavior and the way you seem to cling to the label of "woman".
I do think labels have a place, but only as a way to pin down an idea and as a reference point. They aren't the end-all-be-all of being you.
It's easy to be "you". You are always you. Can't escape it.
Everything one does is what one is.
And if one wants to label people, then one is a labeling-machine.
As a Proud and beautiful woman, I find both sexual reassignment surgery and hormone therapy insulting to people of either gender.
As a woman I have the right to dress whatever way I want. I have a penchant for Jeans, shirts and briefs and wingtip shoes.
As a woman I have the right to date and see whomever I please, including my beautiful fiance.
As a woman I can drink, have nights out with the lads, fart and take my dick out to piss at the side of the road.
As a woman I have a right (assuming she feels the same way when the time comes) to impregnate my wife.
I feel that women, born male or female who use hormones are just painted tarts and those who mutilate their body are nothing more than cybertrannies.
Every woman, male or female should love the body she is given. And those who mutilate themselves are entitled to, whatever floats your boat, If a monkey wants to stick its dick in a vice who am I to judge, but they are not entitled to insult what it means to be a real man or woman like myself by saying that these body modifications are making them more of a woman or more of a man.
Edit: write the word cybertranny in the post reply and see what spell check suggests for it.
Quote from: Faust on December 15, 2011, 10:54:05 AM
Edit: write the word cybertranny in the post reply and see what spell check suggests for it.
:lulz:
Alright, I'm sorry. I got really upset last night and couldn't think all that well. I do think that it's important to deconstruct what a man or a woman or someone in between is. These are hard questions and concepts for me to grapple with and it's important for me to be able to do so.
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off. Especially knowing that other trans people in my company's employ didn't understand their rights and didn't fight against the false option of using the wrong bathroom or moving to a different store. A less cut and dry example would be that I feel that almost everyone who doesn't know me labels me as a gay male and this ends up seriously killing my chance of getting a relationship.
I hope we reach some kind of common ground on this, since I don't want to lead to some lame agree to disagree scenario, but I just don't see any sort of reality where labels honestly don't matter. My past partner did their best to not apply a label onto themselves and I respected that, but that still didn't stop everyone around us from slapping a female label on her. English language doesn't allow for non-labels (outside of the awkward ze/hir thing or they/them that my past partner preferred). Yes, the queer community has a huge load of labels, but they aren't used to constrict people into stereotype shaped boxes, but to be able to find some group of people with a common characteristic or to organize under some sort of umbrella term like LGBT or transgender in support of rights for everyone under them.
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
^ That, because you're still missing the point at least four of us have been making. Defending your rights is one thing, but fuck 'em if they don't get it otherwise.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 03:45:51 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:43:15 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Hoo boy, there's a lot to cover here so I guess I'll just dig in.
Nigel, your focus on seems to be centered more on SRS and practices surrounding it. I agree wholeheartedly that the criteria for having SRS is abysmal. The Standards of Care (health criteria for trans issues) was, and still is, decided by cissexuals.
Wait.
By what?
Cissexual is a term for non-trans person.
That's fucking stupid.
Oook ook, monkey boxes. Gotta stick people in 'em!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
Garbo, this? ^
See, Zenpeanut, the difference between me and you is that we're both angry, but I'm angry at the real problem.
The problem isn't that they won't let you climb into the box you want to be in. The problem is that they want to jam everyone into boxes in the first place, and you're rushing into the handcuffs.
Also, I'm a chick and WTF, if I couldn't pee in the women's room I'd just use the men's, WTF is your problem. Also I swear like a sailor and I'm competitive as fuck. Have you seen me? I'm a dick.
You have some weird ideas about "feminine", but then everyone who buys into the fucking bullshit has weird ideas about gender.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
Garbo, this? ^
Two words:
ATTENTION WHORE.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 05:35:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
Garbo, this? ^
Two words:
ATTENTION WHORE.
I'm just stunned by the bathroom issue itself.
For real.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
Garbo, this? ^
Nope.
This:
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay.
It's possible I'm continuing to fail at reading, as I'm still running on about two hours of sleep over the last two days. But hey.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:21:56 PM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay. I can laugh that off because it doesn't really affect me and the guy acted ridiculously in doing so. I had to spend a month walking home to use the bathroom when I was at work because my HR manager as long as she possibly could before I could use the women's restroom. This is a bit harder to laugh off.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this paragraph.
ETA: Pull the other one, it has bells.
Garbo, this? ^
Nope.
This:
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 05:19:13 PM
I think my sensitivity in this is coming from me constantly having to defend against mis-labeling. That dude on the bus gave me labels of male and gay.
It's possible I'm continuing to fail at reading, as I'm still running on about two hours of sleep over the last two days. But hey.
Nothing like having some dude in the bathroom with you. :)
But it's okay, it makes him feel better.
*shrug* ZP identifies as a woman. I view it with about as much concern as someone whose biologically female, but I'm kind of weird.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
*shrug* ZP identifies as a woman. I view it with about as much concern as someone whose biologically female, but I'm kind of weird.
Sure. And so do I.
But that's us. Apparently, the feelings of someone who doesn't feel precisely the same way - or hasn't come to completely to terms with it - don't stack up in the face of Zen Peanut's need to stick it to the man.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
*shrug* ZP identifies as a woman. I view it with about as much concern as someone whose biologically female, but I'm kind of weird.
Sure. And so do I.
But that's us. Apparently, the feelings of someone who doesn't feel precisely the same way - or hasn't come to completely to terms with it - don't stack up in the face of Zen Peanut's need to stick it to the man.
She needs to prove that she's DIFFERENT and SPECIAL and deserves SPECIAL CONSIDERATION.
Dude, you have a dick, just pee in the men's room. WTF is that? If you don't want anyone to see your willy, pee in a stall.
Oh, wait, I'm probably being "insensitive" now.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
*shrug* ZP identifies as a woman. I view it with about as much concern as someone whose biologically female, but I'm kind of weird.
Sure. And so do I.
But that's us. Apparently, the feelings of someone who doesn't feel precisely the same way - or hasn't come to completely to terms with it - don't stack up in the face of Zen Peanut's need to stick it to the man.
She needs to prove that she's DIFFERENT and SPECIAL and deserves SPECIAL CONSIDERATION.
Dude, you have a dick, just pee in the men's room. WTF is that? If you don't want anyone to see your willy, pee in a stall.
Oh, wait, I'm probably being "insensitive" now.
Given the rape stats in your thread, I am absolutely positive there is no chance that a woman at that workplace might feel nervous about having a person who is biologically male in the same room as her when she pulls her pants down.
Know what I mean?
Sensitivity has to go both fucking ways.
I must admit I hadn't thought about that part.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand. I have a lot of trans friends, some use hormones some do not. The ones that do use hormones are happier than they were before they started using hormones.
Me being a filthy pervert doesn't invalidate the fact that I think the gendered science kits, with perfumes for the girls, are fucking retarded and I wouldn't buy one for my daughter either. Sexuality and Gender are two different things.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:11:31 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 05:55:33 PM
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on December 15, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
*shrug* ZP identifies as a woman. I view it with about as much concern as someone whose biologically female, but I'm kind of weird.
Sure. And so do I.
But that's us. Apparently, the feelings of someone who doesn't feel precisely the same way - or hasn't come to completely to terms with it - don't stack up in the face of Zen Peanut's need to stick it to the man.
She needs to prove that she's DIFFERENT and SPECIAL and deserves SPECIAL CONSIDERATION.
Dude, you have a dick, just pee in the men's room. WTF is that? If you don't want anyone to see your willy, pee in a stall.
Oh, wait, I'm probably being "insensitive" now.
Given the rape stats in your thread, I am absolutely positive there is no chance that a woman at that workplace might feel nervous about having a person who is biologically male in the same room as her when she pulls her pants down.
Know what I mean?
Sensitivity has to go both fucking ways.
Yeah, no shit. But Zenpeanut's a special fucking butterfly to that doesn't apply to her. Her woes are UNIQUE and SPECIAL because she's so DIFFERENT.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand.
I was more thinking about your "empowered" prostitute friend, but yeah, the snuff porn thing means that I won't ever be taking you seriously, either.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand. I have a lot of trans friends, some use hormones some do not. The ones that do use hormones are happier than they were before they started using hormones.
Me being a filthy pervert doesn't invalidate the fact that I think the gendered science kits, with perfumes for the girls, are fucking retarded and I wouldn't buy one for my daughter either. Sexuality and Gender are two different things.
It's not that you're a pervert, it's that you're stupid and you frequently spout off about shit you know absolutely nothing about.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:35:36 PM
Yeah, no shit. But Zenpeanut's a special fucking butterfly to that doesn't apply to her. Her woes are UNIQUE and SPECIAL because she's so DIFFERENT.
This. Also, the bathroom thing reminds me of someone painting a REALLY BIG FLAG, and then stomping back and forth in front of you, screeching that they're a snowflake, and that you have to respect their idiosyncracies.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand. I have a lot of trans friends, some use hormones some do not. The ones that do use hormones are happier than they were before they started using hormones.
Me being a filthy pervert doesn't invalidate the fact that I think the gendered science kits, with perfumes for the girls, are fucking retarded and I wouldn't buy one for my daughter either. Sexuality and Gender are two different things.
Roger was too limiting in his dismissal of you.
It should have read: "Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about
anything, ever."
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 15, 2011, 06:39:12 PM
Roger was too limiting in his dismissal of you.
It should have read: "Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about anything, ever."
I like it when he gets his hopes up a bit.
Also, Babs, given previous completely moronic things you have said, for example that rape victims are better off dead and that the 16-year-old prostitute you knew was perfectly happy and doing it because she liked it, your ability to assess anyone's happiness (or any other mental state) is profoundly suspect. As far as I can tell you are either mildly retarded or you have a personality disorder, or possibly both.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:44:17 PM
Also, Babs, given previous completely moronic things you have said, for example that rape victims are better off dead and that the 16-year-old prostitute you knew was perfectly happy and doing it because she liked it, your ability to assess anyone's happiness (or any other mental state) is profoundly suspect. As far as I can tell you are either mildly retarded or you have a personality disorder, or possibly both.
Socially retarded.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand. I have a lot of trans friends, some use hormones some do not. The ones that do use hormones are happier than they were before they started using hormones.
Me being a filthy pervert doesn't invalidate the fact that I think the gendered science kits, with perfumes for the girls, are fucking retarded and I wouldn't buy one for my daughter either. Sexuality and Gender are two different things.
It's not that you're a pervert, it's that you're stupid and you frequently spout off about shit you know absolutely nothing about.
True as that is this is not one of those cases.
I'm not saying hormones are the solution always. Some people are better off being hairy chested princesses or smooth faced tough guys with hips and curves. Others are better off taking a daily pill so their brains don't try to crawl out of the body they are trapped in.
Also, yes, I do have a personality disorder. Borderline, which does sometimes impair my ability to judge other's motivations and contentment. I'm basing my assessment of the happiness of hormoned friends on their own description of their happiness.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:46:37 PM
True as that is this is not one of those cases.
We have no way to know that, and given your history, that's not how to bet.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:46:37 PM
Also, yes, I do have a personality disorder.
Fat Disgusting Degenerate?
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:46:37 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:32:35 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 15, 2011, 06:23:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 03:37:19 AM
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 15, 2011, 03:35:49 AM
Okay, so now hormones. Again, you've got to weight benefit versus risk. The massive difference between hormones and SRS is that most aspects of hormones are completely reversible. The only ones that aren't are sterility and breast growth (which usually doesn't even begin to show up for at least 3 months). I could probably fill up an entire page with all the different effects hormones have, but I won't. What I will say is that the cool thing about hormones is that they make a fabulous assessment tool, though they also have a semi-long waiting period.
AND ABSOLUTELY NO SIDE EFFECTS!
Of course there are side effects, there are with any medication, but in the case of hormone therapy those side effects are sometimes more than worth it because the person taking them is no longer miserable.
Some people have a brain that responds in the wrong way to the hormones that their body produces, if this can be remedied by taking hormones, even if there are some side effects, that is a choice for the person potentially taking the hormones to make.
Once again, Babylon Horuv expects to be taken seriously about this sort of thing. :lulz:
Not sure what my fantasies have to do with the topic at hand. I have a lot of trans friends, some use hormones some do not. The ones that do use hormones are happier than they were before they started using hormones.
Me being a filthy pervert doesn't invalidate the fact that I think the gendered science kits, with perfumes for the girls, are fucking retarded and I wouldn't buy one for my daughter either. Sexuality and Gender are two different things.
It's not that you're a pervert, it's that you're stupid and you frequently spout off about shit you know absolutely nothing about.
True as that is this is not one of those cases.
I'm not saying hormones are the solution always. Some people are better off being hairy chested princesses or smooth faced tough guys with hips and curves. Others are better off taking a daily pill so their brains don't try to crawl out of the body they are trapped in.
Also, yes, I do have a personality disorder. Borderline, which does sometimes impair my ability to judge other's motivations and contentment. I'm basing my assessment of the happiness of hormoned friends on their own description of their happiness.
Oh, that makes perfect sense.
Your friends might in fact be happier with the hormones. However, that doesn't cast any light whatsoever on the reasons for their unhappiness in the first place, which I posit are social and not biological.
Also, if I had my way, people with borderline personality disorder would be rounded up and napalmed. :)
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:51:39 PM
Also, if I had my way, people with borderline personality disorder would be rounded up and napalmed. :)
It's better that way.
For me, I mean.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 06:51:39 PM
Also, if I had my way, people with borderline personality disorder would be rounded up and napalmed. :)
It's better that way.
For me, I mean.
It's the best way to start the day!
Quote from: Zenpeanut on December 14, 2011, 10:47:55 PMMy definition of transsexuality is the phenomenon when someone who is male-bodied feels an innate sense of femaleness or who is female-bodied feels an innate sense of maleness. This does not mean that any means of transition (cross-dressing, hormones, numerous surgeries) has taken place.
What's that mean? I don't understand what it means. Like, when you're male-bodied and feel the innate need to have a period or something?
Also, your remark about people not being comfortable having sex with their original organs. Okay. But you said that sometimes this is not caused by society or culture (or having random crazy ideas for that matter) but apparently by some innate sense. Really? I find that hard to believe, but if you got some good examples/research for that I suppose it validates a lot.
Finally, what bathroom you go to. What difference does it make? And who's preventing you? I use the handicapped bathroom or even women's bathroom when the other's occupied or just more dirty (in bars and clubs the men's room is usually cleaner because women "hover and spray", however if you really need to take a shit, sometimes the men's toilet doesn't have a seat, so yeah).
Okay, I have to disagree with you, Roger and Nigel.
You are right that there are some people who might take issue with a person with a penis in the women's restroom. This is perfectly understandable, but completely misguided (on their part, not yours). But it can also be flat out dangerous to walk into a men's room when you identify and present as female. I wouldn't even do that, if I had any choice at all, and I've been in a scrap or two, and I'm a born troll. Sure, 9 rimes out of 10, it would be fine. But, 9 times out of 10, the people in the women's restroom won't know and/or care.
In a different note, I don't really see what all the commotion against hormones is about. Hormones are like any other happy pill, and SRS is like any other cosmetic surgery. There are consequences and side effects, but if a person judges them better than current situation, why bother them about it?
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Okay, I have to disagree with you, Roger and Nigel.
You are right that there are some people who might take issue with a person with a penis in the women's restroom. This is perfectly understandable, but completely misguided (on their part, not yours).
So, who trumps who? You have to choose, here.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Okay, I have to disagree with you, Roger and Nigel.
You are right that there are some people who might take issue with a person with a penis in the women's restroom. This is perfectly understandable, but completely misguided (on their part, not yours). But it can also be flat out dangerous to walk into a men's room when you identify and present as female. I wouldn't even do that, if I had any choice at all, and I've been in a scrap or two, and I'm a born troll. Sure, 9 rimes out of 10, it would be fine. But, 9 times out of 10, the people in the women's restroom won't know and/or care.
In a different note, I don't really see what all the commotion against hormones is about. Hormones are like any other happy pill, and SRS is like any other cosmetic surgery. There are consequences and side effects, but if a person judges them better than current situation, why bother them about it?
It's a work restroom, not a random bar restroom. If it was a random bar restroom and she's dressed "like a woman" (which I apparently rarely do) I would suggest she just use the women's room because who's going to stop her?
But it's the workplace bathroom. And yeah, you kinda have to ask, whose feelings trump whose, here? The woman who feels threatened by a person with a dick being in the potty with her while she's got her panties around the ankles, or the dick-bearing chick who doesn't want to pee in the men's room?
And I couldn't possibly agree with you MORE about hormones and SRS being exactly like any other happy pills and cosmetic surgery. That is exactly what I'm saying.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Okay, I have to disagree with you, Roger and Nigel.
You are right that there are some people who might take issue with a person with a penis in the women's restroom. This is perfectly understandable, but completely misguided (on their part, not yours).
So, who trumps who? You have to choose, here.
If you know there's someone in the office who doesn't want you in the room while they have their pants down, tie a knot in it, cross your legs, whatever, and wait five minutes. Particularly if you can discuss it with, "I know it makes you uncomfortable, how about we agree to disagree, we'll both knock, and whoever's inside will finish up, and whoever's outside will wait."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 15, 2011, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 15, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Okay, I have to disagree with you, Roger and Nigel.
You are right that there are some people who might take issue with a person with a penis in the women's restroom. This is perfectly understandable, but completely misguided (on their part, not yours).
So, who trumps who? You have to choose, here.
Yeah, and given the choice between making someone uncomfortable and getting curb-stomped with generally the same probability... I'd rather make someone uncomfortable, honestly.
While I am against gendered restrooms in the first place, there is a serious threat to my well-being if I walk in to a men's room in a dress and make-up and it happens to have three or four burly rednecks in it. If I walk into the women's restroom the same way, and there are three or four women, well... the odds of me getting a second glance are much lower in that scenario.
I can see how this might go differently at a work place where people knew you before, but I personally believe that co-workers should be more understanding and accommodating. (Female co-workers should not mind if you use the women's room, male co-workers should not want to beat you with the nearest blunt object if you use the men's restroom.) The reality of this, however, i cannot speak on. .
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
And I couldn't possibly agree with you MORE about hormones and SRS being exactly like any other happy pills and cosmetic surgery. That is exactly what I'm saying.
I know that's what you were saying, Nigel, that part was more directed at Roger and Faust, because that wasn't the sense I was getting from their posts on the topic (could be wrong, of course, I often am). Sorry if that was unclear. :)
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
It's a work restroom, not a random bar restroom. If it was a random bar restroom and she's dressed "like a woman" (which I apparently rarely do) I would suggest she just use the women's room because who's going to stop her?
But it's the workplace bathroom. And yeah, you kinda have to ask, whose feelings trump whose, here? The woman who feels threatened by a person with a dick being in the potty with her while she's got her panties around the ankles, or the dick-bearing chick who doesn't want to pee in the men's room?
Yeah... I'm ambivalent still, because monkeys will be monkeys. I vote in favor of personal safety for everyone. So, at a workplace.... it would depend on the coworkers. Like I said above, I cannot speak on that topic, since I don't work there.
I don't understand why it's even an issue unless public restrooms suddenly no longer have stalls.
I mean if you're a woman with a penis and you walk into the women's bathroom and whip your fucking dick out in front of everyone, then guess what? you're a jerk and you brought your troubles on yourself by being one. And if you're a man with a vagina, well, men's rooms also have stalls. You can pee in one of them without anyone ever knowing you have a vagina.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 15, 2011, 07:39:39 PM
I mean if you're a woman with a penis and you walk into the women's bathroom and whip your fucking dick out in front of everyone, then guess what? you're a jerk and you brought your troubles on yourself by being one. And if you're a man with a vagina, well, men's rooms also have stalls. You can pee in one of them without anyone ever knowing you have a vagina.
This is very true.
It's a little different in a workplace because people know you, and if you're recently decided to switch genders that could be a little less straightforward. But again, if you've been a dude for 20 years it's probably not going to kill you to use the men's room for a few more months while HR gets that shit hammered out.
Phox, as far as why women might feel threatened by a penis in the ladies room, I refer you to this thread: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=29777.0
Yeah, it may be irrational. But there's nothing rational about a PTSD/fear response.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 15, 2011, 07:39:39 PM
I mean if you're a woman with a penis and you walk into the women's bathroom and whip your fucking dick out in front of everyone, then guess what? you're a jerk and you brought your troubles on yourself by being one. And if you're a man with a vagina, well, men's rooms also have stalls. You can pee in one of them without anyone ever knowing you have a vagina.
Excellent point, ECH. But I think the issue that Zen's coworkers are aware of her penis, and may not be comfortable with that.
Fair enough. Perhaps Zenpeanut could invest in one of those astronaut toilets with the vacuum hose? Then not only could she be a special snowflake with her own bathroom but she'd never even have to leave her desk to pee. I call that a win-win scenario.
I agree that gendered restrooms are kind of dumb, BTW. It's especially annoying when the men's room doesn't have a changing table.
Quote from: Nigel on December 15, 2011, 07:45:03 PM
Phox, as far as why women might feel threatened by a penis in the ladies room, I refer you to this thread: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=29777.0
Yeah, it may be irrational. But there's nothing rational about a PTSD/fear response.
Oh no, I completely agree with that Nigel. Like I said, if Zen doesn't have an immediate threat to her person by using the men's room, and one of her female coworkers is uncool with her using the women's room, for whatever reason (including that), then she should just use the men's room.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 15, 2011, 07:48:25 PM
Fair enough. Perhaps Zenpeanut could invest in one of those astronaut toilets with the vacuum hose? Then not only could she be a special snowflake with her own bathroom but she'd never even have to leave her desk to pee. I call that a win-win scenario.
Fuck yes! :lulz:
Phox,
Knows what SHE'S getting for Xmas....
Now that I think about it, I could really use one of those myself.
I hate pulling over on long road trips, and I don't like any of the sodas that come in wide-mouth bottles.
I don't know what the problems with bathrooms is. Toilets are unisex. The only reason there's any difference between bathrooms is because people with vaginas have a slightly harder time standing up to piss. Though, I'm told it can be learned with practice.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on December 15, 2011, 07:39:39 PM
I mean if you're a woman with a penis and you walk into the women's bathroom and whip your fucking dick out in front of everyone, then guess what? you're a jerk and you brought your troubles on yourself by being one. And if you're a man with a vagina, well, men's rooms also have stalls. You can pee in one of them without anyone ever knowing you have a vagina.
You talking about bars/clubs?
You live in a happy place when all men's rooms have stalls. We often have to make do with a metal wall+gutter thing and a single perpetual out-of-order stall with no door and no toilet seat. I wish my part of the world was as civilized as yours ;-)
(it's true though, toilets in the US, as far as I've seen were
excellent)
TRAGIC MOMENTS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR EQUALITY:
Matthew Shepard gets beaten to death because of his sexual orientation.
Harvey Milk gets shot to death because of his sexual orientation.
Zenpeanut has to use the men's room.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
TRAGIC MOMENTS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR EQUALITY:
Matthew Shepard gets beaten to death because of his sexual orientation.
Harvey Milk gets shot to death because of his sexual orientation.
Zenpeanut has to use the men's room.
:horrormirth:
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
TRAGIC MOMENTS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR EQUALITY:
Matthew Shepard gets beaten to death because of his sexual orientation.
Harvey Milk gets shot to death because of his sexual orientation.
Zenpeanut has to use the men's room.
:horrormirth:
Took me all damn day to pin down the part that was bugging me.
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Well, yeah. It's the plaintive cry of the entitled 21st century citizen, who feels that life is really fucking hard on him because, well, he needs it to be so he can be all like "LOOK AT MEEEEEEE".
Seriously. Kids in Africa don't have it as bad.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:50:17 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 03:43:17 AM
TRAGIC MOMENTS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR EQUALITY:
Matthew Shepard gets beaten to death because of his sexual orientation.
Harvey Milk gets shot to death because of his sexual orientation.
Zenpeanut has to use the men's room.
:horrormirth:
Took me all damn day to pin down the part that was bugging me.
Yep.
This isn't even a case of diminishing the lesser evil, because it's a non-hardship.
"Hey, I'm gonna be a girl now"
"OK, but it's gonna take a few months of everybody getting used to it before you can switch to the women's restroom".
"BAWWWWWW DISCRIMINATION!!!!!!"
FFS.
Every once in a while, the shitpuddle guy at Borders would clog up the floor drain and overflow the toilet and dance around in a pool of his own shit.
When that happened the men had to use the ladies room.
Nobody cared, except for the poor fucker who had to clean the men's room. Which was, at least half the time, a chick. Having to clean shitpuddle's filth out of the men's room... THAT was a hardship.
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:57:59 AM
Every once in a while, the shitpuddle guy at Borders would clog up the floor drain and overflow the toilet and dance around in a pool of his own shit.
When that happened the men had to use the ladies room.
Nobody cared, except for the poor fucker who had to clean the men's room. Which was, at least half the time, a chick. Having to clean shitpuddle's filth out of the men's room... THAT was a hardship.
THAT sounds goddamn horrible, and is one of the reasons I could never ever ever be any kind of janitor, because other people's bodily fluids gross me out to such a degree that I become paralyzed with vomiting.
I can't even stand my own body functions about a quarter of the time.
Eughk. HAZMAT. CALL THEM.
1. I can't bring myself to side with other queer people just because they are also queer. A lot of them are stupid assholes, just like every type of person.
I do agree that the violence and unjust discrimination is wrong, serious, and should be dealt with.
But..
2. Is it too simple to say that the problem is stupid people? It's not even some big, evil male patriarchal conspiracy. I know plenty gay dudes who, aside from being stupid assholes, are simply ignorant of trans issues or, hell, feminist issues. This problem with gender and sex is deep and the more it is fractured and divided the more difficult it is to fix.
It seems to me that it is a monstrous, constant battle against morons which is best fought together. Every little snowflake has their little pet issues, I could go on at extraordinary length about my own. But men and women and trans people, gay straight blah blah, who are fighting injustice is fighting the same enemy. It would be nice if we could act like it.
OH! And pride vs self confidence.
Self-confidence is a valuable asset and it can be developed, shaped, reworked. It goes the distance and makes things happen. Pride is useful but limited. I've always seen it as a rally cry. In the end it definitely seems to be a shallow tool of the ego.
Quote from: Alty on December 16, 2011, 08:50:02 PM
1. I can't bring myself to side with other queer people just because they are also queer. A lot of them are stupid assholes, just like every type of person.
I do agree that the violence and unjust discrimination is wrong, serious, and should be dealt with.
But..
2. Is it too simple to say that the problem is stupid people? It's not even some big, evil male patriarchal conspiracy. I know plenty gay dudes who, aside from being stupid assholes, are simply ignorant of trans issues or, hell, feminist issues. This problem with gender and sex is deep and the more it is fractured and divided the more difficult it is to fix.
It seems to me that it is a monstrous, constant battle against morons which is best fought together. Every little snowflake has their little pet issues, I could go on at extraordinary length about my own. But men and women and trans people, gay straight blah blah, who are fighting injustice is fighting the same enemy. It would be nice if we could act like it.
Yup, that's exactly the thing. It all boils down to stupid people. I know a particularly interesting case of the stupid. Trans woman. In the military. Against the repeal of DADT. It just... boggles... the... fucking... mind. (she is incredibly heteronormative, you see).
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:59:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:56:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
heteronormative,
wat
Oh. In support of the enforcement of heterosexual norms. Sociological jargon, sorry. :lol:
Sorta like Jews for Jesus?
Pretty much, yeah. :lulz:
Quote from: Alty on December 16, 2011, 08:50:02 PM1. I can't bring myself to side with other queer people just because they are also queer. A lot of them are stupid assholes, just like every type of person.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but .. you're queer? How? Afaik you're a man in a heterosexual relationship?
(and in the case I'm not misunderstanding and this is too personal a question, that's okay too)
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 16, 2011, 09:02:25 PM
Quote from: Alty on December 16, 2011, 08:50:02 PM1. I can't bring myself to side with other queer people just because they are also queer. A lot of them are stupid assholes, just like every type of person.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but .. you're queer? How? Afaik you're a man in a heterosexual relationship?
(and in the case I'm not misunderstanding and this is too personal a question, that's okay too)
Doesn't make him not queer.
He just has both sides of the menu to choose from.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 16, 2011, 09:02:25 PM
Quote from: Alty on December 16, 2011, 08:50:02 PM1. I can't bring myself to side with other queer people just because they are also queer. A lot of them are stupid assholes, just like every type of person.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but .. you're queer? How? Afaik you're a man in a heterosexual relationship?
(and in the case I'm not misunderstanding and this is too personal a question, that's okay too)
I seem to recall Alty talking about relationships (or potential relationships) with males. IIRC.
Alty: Correct me if I'm wrong on that, dude.
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:59:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:56:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
heteronormative,
wat
Oh. In support of the enforcement of heterosexual norms. Sociological jargon, sorry. :lol:
Sorta like Jews for Jesus?
Pretty much, yeah. :lulz:
Sort of like:
"My <insert kink> isn't actually gay, because <insert rationalization>. But all those <insert other kink> are fucking homos, and should all be thrown out."
Translation: I am a self-loathing nitwit.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 09:05:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:59:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 08:56:10 PM
Quote from: Doktor Zero on December 16, 2011, 08:54:47 PM
heteronormative,
wat
Oh. In support of the enforcement of heterosexual norms. Sociological jargon, sorry. :lol:
Sorta like Jews for Jesus?
Pretty much, yeah. :lulz:
Sort of like:
"My <insert kink> isn't actually gay, because <insert rationalization>. But all those <insert other kink> are fucking homos, and should all be thrown out."
Translation: I am a self-loathing nitwit.
She's a woman, who fucks men. That's not gay.
Not saying she's not a complete nitwit.
Quote from: BabylonHoruv on December 16, 2011, 09:11:19 PM
She's a woman, who fucks men. That's not gay.
Not saying she's not a complete nitwit.
Never read the fucking UCMJ prior to the repeal of DADT, have you, you ignorant fucking corpsefucker?
Go away.
I am bisexual. I am in a monogamous relationship with a woman. I've had one serious relationship with a man that went very badly. I don't get along with men for the most part.
Most people who meet me for the first time (including every woman I've ever dated and their families) assume that I'm gay, many people I've known for years assume (and say to others) that I am in the closet. That is particularly weird because I've banged guys and never hid it from anyone, all my girlfriends have known this and never freak out. Guys on the other hand do NOT like that I am attracted to women at all.
I have a, uh, delicate disposition. It's not just that I don't do a lot of "male" things, things that society expects guys to do. It's my demeanor, my natural voice (which has a range), I'm just not very masculine. As arbitrary as it is, I do love the color pink. I have a lot of pink shit, it just boggles people's minds. An unexpected bonus is that it often gets me into conversations with ladies at bars.
I've had a lot of negative repercussions because of the way I am and it used to have an impact on how I live my life before I decided hiding was worse.
Also interesting is that when I lived in Germany none of this was a problem.
Quote from: Alty on December 16, 2011, 09:16:27 PM
It's not just that I don't do a lot of "male" things, things that society expects guys to do.
No volt meter. That's what.
:lol:
Apparently Pirate Hooker has one back home.
My selection of hand tools is also suspect.
According to societal norms I am a total dude.
Tools? FUCK YEAH POWER TOOLS MOTHERFUCKER! GRINDY CUTTY THINGS WUT MAKES SPARKS. PRESSURIZED FUEL! DANGEROUS THINGS!
I am forthright and opinionated and I drink and swear and wear pants and and work pay my own bills and shit. Dude stuff.
I also am small, feminine, have long hair and tits and a uterus and am a mom and mostly like to sleep with guys and sometimes I like to wear perfume and makeup and jewelry.
This is why gender-pigeonholing is so stupid. My body is female; I'm a woman. And I do what I fucking want; it's really stupid to label power tools as "male" and makeup as "female" and everybody else should get to do what they want as well, without worrying about whether it makes them a "girl" or a "boy", in areas where it doesn't infringe on other people's rights.
If you want to pick a different pronoun from the one your genitals would otherwise assign you, that's fine, just let me know and don't attention-whore about it.
If everyone else felt more or less like this, shit would be a lot less problematic.
QuoteIf everyone else felt more or less like this, shit would be a lot less problematic.
This.
I think there's been a shift away from this kind of pigeon holing in general.
People have to have a Thing, though.
It doesn't really matter if it's nationalism, religion, My Little Ponies, gender identity, the kind of car you drive/phone you use/etc and never shut the fuck up about, WoW. It's this Thing you do because...I don't know why.
Quote
According to societal norms I am a total dude.
That's where the problem is, not the people doing, but the ignorant people watching. It's their problem.
Where in Germany were you? I'm guessing a big city? But yeah I suppose they are rather tolerant.
(Can't speak for the smaller rural places myself because 1 it's rather hard to get a good feel for those places unless you live there for a while and 2 even if I had, I bet you can't generalize over them at all)
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Thats why I just use "queer". It just indicates people who are different than the so called norms and just want to live as they feel comfortable, whether that means wearing skirts, pegging, or penis jousting. Or any number of other things. Alty is queer, I'm queer, Phox is queer, you're queer, Zenpeanut is queer, LMNO is queer (and a big, fabulous cowboy). Etc. If some people who call themselves "transgendered" are uncomfortable with being queer, it's probably because they've been spending all their time stuffing themselves in boxes and would rather lash out at allies and hide under a persona than just be themselves. I mean, deep down we all want the same thing, which is to be accepted for who we are. I speak from experience when I say that self identified transgenders in their uphill battle to put themselves in a box and become a stereotype, often fight the hardest against anything that might be considered transgressive just so they can be "normal". FUCK that.
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 16, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Thats why I just use "queer". It just indicates people who are different than the so called norms and just want to live as they feel comfortable, whether that means wearing skirts, pegging, or penis jousting. Or any number of other things. Alty is queer, I'm queer, Phox is queer, you're queer, Zenpeanut is queer, LMNO is queer (and a big, fabulous cowboy). Etc. If some people who call themselves "transgendered" are uncomfortable with being queer, it's probably because they've been spending all their time stuffing themselves in boxes and would rather lash out at allies and hide under a persona than just be themselves. I mean, deep down we all want the same thing, which is to be accepted for who we are. I speak from experience when I say that self identified transgenders in their uphill battle to put themselves in a box and become a stereotype, often fight the hardest against anything that might be considered transgressive just so they can be "normal". FUCK that.
I agree completely! Really well put.
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 16, 2011, 11:01:20 PM
Where in Germany were you? I'm guessing a big city? But yeah I suppose they are rather tolerant.
(Can't speak for the smaller rural places myself because 1 it's rather hard to get a good feel for those places unless you live there for a while and 2 even if I had, I bet you can't generalize over them at all)
I was in a small dorf about an hour or so away from Stuttgart. Lots of conservative, farm-land types. It was still sort of taboo to be gay, but I rarely saw really any malice. More shame than anything. Maybe it's because of where I live now, where men are MEN and grizzly and rugged, if you know what I mean. But over there I wasn't considered as feminine, it was simply never an issue, which I think further shows that it's about cultural and social norms.
Kai: Yep. I love the term queer because it works. It is broad enough to include all the things that people think are "wrong", and allows people to break it down as they need to. It also makes people uncomfortable in just the right way.
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 16, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Thats why I just use "queer". It just indicates people who are different than the so called norms and just want to live as they feel comfortable, whether that means wearing skirts, pegging, or penis jousting. Or any number of other things. Alty is queer, I'm queer, Phox is queer, you're queer, Zenpeanut is queer, LMNO is queer (and a big, fabulous cowboy). Etc. If some people who call themselves "transgendered" are uncomfortable with being queer, it's probably because they've been spending all their time stuffing themselves in boxes and would rather lash out at allies and hide under a persona than just be themselves. I mean, deep down we all want the same thing, which is to be accepted for who we are. I speak from experience when I say that self identified transgenders in their uphill battle to put themselves in a box and become a stereotype, often fight the hardest against anything that might be considered transgressive just so they can be "normal". FUCK that.
I'm going with "queer", too.
Because I loves me some wierd.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 11:36:50 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 16, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Thats why I just use "queer". It just indicates people who are different than the so called norms and just want to live as they feel comfortable, whether that means wearing skirts, pegging, or penis jousting. Or any number of other things. Alty is queer, I'm queer, Phox is queer, you're queer, Zenpeanut is queer, LMNO is queer (and a big, fabulous cowboy). Etc. If some people who call themselves "transgendered" are uncomfortable with being queer, it's probably because they've been spending all their time stuffing themselves in boxes and would rather lash out at allies and hide under a persona than just be themselves. I mean, deep down we all want the same thing, which is to be accepted for who we are. I speak from experience when I say that self identified transgenders in their uphill battle to put themselves in a box and become a stereotype, often fight the hardest against anything that might be considered transgressive just so they can be "normal". FUCK that.
I'm going with "queer", too.
Because I loves me some wierd.
PD: JUST A BIG HAIRY LOVEPILE OF QUEER!
Quote from: Nigel on December 17, 2011, 12:38:18 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 16, 2011, 11:36:50 PM
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 16, 2011, 11:03:36 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 16, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
There is seriously a very valid struggle in the subject of so-called "transgenderism" (which really deserves a more fitting name... I say we come up with one that doesn't imply crossing boundaries or transgression) but it's shit like this that makes me feel like we've been set back 20 years.
Thats why I just use "queer". It just indicates people who are different than the so called norms and just want to live as they feel comfortable, whether that means wearing skirts, pegging, or penis jousting. Or any number of other things. Alty is queer, I'm queer, Phox is queer, you're queer, Zenpeanut is queer, LMNO is queer (and a big, fabulous cowboy). Etc. If some people who call themselves "transgendered" are uncomfortable with being queer, it's probably because they've been spending all their time stuffing themselves in boxes and would rather lash out at allies and hide under a persona than just be themselves. I mean, deep down we all want the same thing, which is to be accepted for who we are. I speak from experience when I say that self identified transgenders in their uphill battle to put themselves in a box and become a stereotype, often fight the hardest against anything that might be considered transgressive just so they can be "normal". FUCK that.
I'm going with "queer", too.
Because I loves me some wierd.
PD: JUST A BIG HAIRY LOVEPILE OF QUEER!
*glances around for the Triple Zero guy*...
NEWSFEED.
*hides*
:?
I don't get it? Can't come up with any way I'd be queer, cause I'm pretty straight afaik? Except, as previously mentioned in another thread, with my hypothetical clone/timetraveling self :)
I am queer by the standards of PD because I'm the absolute spitting image of the stereotypical "heteronormative" manly man.
(yes, I hate that word but I didn't want to type 6 other ones in its place).
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 17, 2011, 05:46:49 PM
:?
I don't get it? Can't come up with any way I'd be queer, cause I'm pretty straight afaik? Except, as previously mentioned in another thread, with my hypothetical clone/timetraveling self :)
Which means you endorse the act of sucking your own penis. Which is pretty queer, so don't worry about it. :)
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 17, 2011, 05:46:49 PM
:?
I don't get it? Can't come up with any way I'd be queer, cause I'm pretty straight afaik? Except, as previously mentioned in another thread, with my hypothetical clone/timetraveling self :)
eh, i'm referencing that time that you made the thread complaining that there lots of people posting nothing but
"NEWSFEED" and adding no contributions to the discussion. Don't worry about it. :)
For the purposes of this board, everybody's sexual/gender orientation is "NOBODY FUCKING CARES".
It's one of the things I really love about this place and I wish the rest of the world was more like it.
Quote from: Nigel on December 18, 2011, 05:03:22 AM
For the purposes of this board, everybody's sexual orientation is "NOBODY FUCKING CARES".
It's one of the things I really love about this place.
In case anyone is interested, though, I'm really into dinosaurs.
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 18, 2011, 05:04:50 AM
Quote from: Nigel on December 18, 2011, 05:03:22 AM
For the purposes of this board, everybody's sexual orientation is "NOBODY FUCKING CARES".
It's one of the things I really love about this place.
In case anyone is interested, though, I'm really into dinosaurs.
You should hook up with this guy I know... he's a dinosaur shaman.
Quote from: 'Kai' ZLB, M.S. on December 18, 2011, 01:40:17 AM
Quote from: Triple Zero on December 17, 2011, 05:46:49 PM
:?
I don't get it? Can't come up with any way I'd be queer, cause I'm pretty straight afaik? Except, as previously mentioned in another thread, with my hypothetical clone/timetraveling self :)
Which means you endorse the act of sucking your own penis. Which is pretty queer, so don't worry about it. :)
Any guy who says he wouldn't suck his own dick if it were possible for him to do so is not only a liar, but the absolutely WRONG kind of weirdo.
thinking about it.....I can't wait to use that to entrap the next homophobic idiot I come across. :lulz:
Quote from: Beardman Meow on December 18, 2011, 05:04:50 AM
In case anyone is interested, though, I'm really into dinosaurs.
Dear Beardman Meow,
I read your post out loud at the altar of the Magnificent and Powerful Tyrannosaurus Rex. The ancient spirits wanted me to relay this message to you:
"YOUR KINK IS NOT OKAY".
Please understand that the ancient spirits are over 30 million years old, and their views on love and marriage are therefore a bit conservative by today's standards.
Mighty T-Rex is aware that human beings who disapprove of each other's sexual preferences use words like "fag" and "breeder". He asked me if there was a similar English term to refer to humans who feel sexually attracted to dinosaurs and other coldblooded creatures. I told him I did not know if such a term exists. So Mighty T-Rex, King Tyrant, magnanimous and glorious alpha of all living beings, created the following terms, which now apply to you:
SAUROGGOT
PALEOHOMO
TAIL JUGGLER
CLOACA MONGLER
Finally, if you intend on pursuing your sexuality, you may find this guide useful: http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/hallscience/X0086_ScalySexFAQ.html
Sincerely yours,
Pterodactyl Handler X
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: Nearly destroyed my screen with orange juice.
Quote from: Nigel on December 18, 2011, 05:03:22 AM
For the purposes of this board, everybody's sexual/gender orientation is "NOBODY FUCKING CARES".
It's one of the things I really love about this place and I wish the rest of the world was more like it.
But for the purposes of the rest of the world, we're all queers who shall be dealt with one fine day.
Much like the ULC, we are hated by everyone because we don't find puny reasons to hate anyone.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 18, 2011, 06:36:20 PM
Quote from: Nigel on December 18, 2011, 05:03:22 AM
For the purposes of this board, everybody's sexual/gender orientation is "NOBODY FUCKING CARES".
It's one of the things I really love about this place and I wish the rest of the world was more like it.
But for the purposes of the rest of the world, we're all queers who shall be dealt with one fine day.
Much like the ULC, we are hated by everyone because we don't find puny reasons to hate anyone.
:lol: True, that.