Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Or Kill Me => Topic started by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM

Title: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
I offer a hypothetical scenario. A group of people are in a social situation, and someone says something that is sexist, racist, homophobic yada yada. Imagine this group is a bunch of white guys, and it's a rape joke or similar mysogynistic bullshit, some flippant assed comment on a person of colour, or a non-hetero person.

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are. They may claim that they don't actually believe the shit they are saying, or "I was just being ironic" or some lame assed crap, but they need to be reminded that although they may not believe it, some wankers MIGHT. And by telling their shitty joke, laughing at it, or not rebuking someone, you are telling them that this shit is okay. It's a pretty dickish move. I think it is especially important to do this if you are a straight man, a white man or someone who isn't usually shat on by this behaviour, cos the wimmens, the POC and teh Gheys need allies in the War Against Bullshit.

Now, I realise that in some places, like work, that calling people out on their crap may not be the best thing to do on a personal level, especially if it doesn't relate directly to you/a colleague, and in a recession where your ass might get fired and another job might be not forthcoming. We all have to eat, pay bills, keep ourselves housed and clothed. It would be fucking awesome if we could speak up and not jeopardise our livelihoods, or personal safety, but if you are broke or in hospital or dead, you aren't much use to the practice of Calling People On Their Bullshit.

In a social situation, however the stakes aren't anywhere near as high.  All you have to lose is a douchenozzle, and we could all stand to have less of them in our lives. If you don't lose someone, and they start to, heaven forbid, THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK or start calling people on their crap, well, you have just done the world a solid. If you do this, I wont salute you, or buy you a drink (unless you did it with Style and Wit, then I'll buy you a drink for being a Glorious Faggot) cos you have merely been a decent biped, and by rights, this should be your default setting.

OR FUCKING KILL ME.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LMNO on May 09, 2012, 06:19:18 PM
You don't even have to yell. A simple "excuse me?" or even a raised eyebrow works.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 09, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 09, 2012, 06:19:18 PM
You don't even have to yell. A simple "excuse me?" or even a raised eyebrow works.

I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 09, 2012, 06:42:52 PM
Pat, the other guitarist is a very blue collar guy. Dropped out of high school and started working for his father at the autobody shop that the band practiced in until he got married and bought a house. Well we were exposed to a lot of blue collar irish guys and one time this guy from county louth made a bad jewish joke. I knew he wasnt antisemitic but i rolled my eyes anyway. Someone else saw it and said "oh kevin didnt like that." at which point the joke teller asked me if i was jewish. Had him going for a good half hour during which he kept apologizing to me. Then he asked how it was possible that i was irish and jewish. Told him that if your mothers jewish youre jewish. Then when he seemed remorseful enough i let him off the hook and said "im fucking with you. I was raised catholic. I just found the joke distasteful." i mentioned this in nigels racism thread.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 09, 2012, 06:46:40 PM
I also got villagers brother to stop using the word fag as a casual insult while we were still in a band together. He supports gay marriage so it made it even stranger. I dont know if hes relapsed since he and i arent exactly on speaking terms. Villager is invited to his wedding but i am not. My reaction to this was "great i dont have to go now. Tell him thank you"
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 09, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.

Getting up and leaving works. It's a tactic I have used in the past, along with the "I don't like/do that sort of joke". I'm thinking your approach would stop me butting heads with people I know will just turn into bigger assholes.

I guess I'm youngish, and kinda pissy at the world. Maybe I'll learn, maybe I won't.

anyway, the basic point is to show distaste, and not just shrug it off, or be seen to acquiesce.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:58:26 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are.

Depends.  I stopped trying to save the world a long time ago.  I will call them on it if I feel I can ruin their night by doing so, or if I think they'll be REALLY embarrassed when they sober up the next day.

What I typically do, though, is just get up and leave without a word.  It has a similar effect to calling them on their shit, but it does so without ME having to listen to THEIR bullshit excuses and rationalizations.  It's not my job to save the world.  I just don't want to listen to the yahoos while they "fix" it.

Getting up and leaving works. It's a tactic I have used in the past, along with the "I don't like/do that sort of joke". I'm thinking your approach would stop me butting heads with people I know will just turn into bigger assholes.

I guess I'm youngish, and kinda pissy at the world. Maybe I'll learn, maybe I won't.

anyway, the basic point is to show distaste, and not just shrug it off, or be seen to acquiesce.

Oh, yeah.  If there's humor value, I'll get on their shit, or just slap the bejeezus out of them.  Mostly, though, they're tiresome bores, and I don't have time for them.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 09, 2012, 07:52:15 PM
Another point is to focus on what they said rather than what they are. What they are is not the point of calling someone out, and will cause someone to get defensive.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 07:53:38 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 07:52:15 PM
Another point is to focus on what they said rather than what they are. What they are is not the point of calling someone out, and will cause someone to get defensive.

When people act like that, their reaction to my reaction is utterly irrelevant to me.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:01:39 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people? 
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 09, 2012, 08:03:35 PM
I have a really racist uncle.

In some ways, it's easier to deal with than having a really racist grandma, because I don't have to pretend that I love him. We're not even related by blood, he's married to my eldest aunt. Usually once a year or so, he says something just appalling, as opposed to the general racist bent to his outlook on life. This year, it was using the word "monkeys" to refer to the black families that were "ruining the neighborhood." As soon as he walked out of the room, all of us turned and looked at one another, asking if that really happened and he really just said that. It's just unbelievable, no matter how many times he does it. Even his own kids can't stand it. But when it happens, I just freeze up and sit there trying to think of some way he could possibly not mean what he just said, or I misheard it, and then the moment's gone.

On top of that, there's the social awareness that although this man is a total bigoted douchenozzle, he's married to my aunt. Specifically, the aunt who if she was born today would have been diagnosed with a moderate to severe developmental disorder. And you have to wonder what would happen to her if it became clear that everyone in her family hates his racist ass. And it shouldn't be like that, and that isn't an excuse for not speaking up, but we all still fall into this trap of biting our tongues and resigning ourselves to the cold comfort that at least he's getting old and no matter what we say he's going to die a racist prick.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:01:39 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people?

Most people are dumb.

A kid with brain damage is not a retard, in the current meaning of the word.  I believe they are called developmentally delayed or some such thing.  I prefer the term "brain damage", because that's what actually happened to the poor little buggers.

A person that CAN think, but WON'T, is a retard.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:01:39 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people?

Most people are dumb.

A kid with brain damage is not a retard, in the current meaning of the word.  I believe they are called developmentally delayed or some such thing.  I prefer the term "brain damage", because that's what actually happened to the poor little buggers.

A person that CAN think, but WON'T, is a retard.

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"







Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:38:06 PM
By which I mean:

The phrase "there's black people and there's niggers" implies that "niggers" is a subset of "black people".

Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does not imply such a subset.

But nice implication.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.

So is this an example of retardation or pretension?

Have you yet to think thru why someone COULD be offended by the use of retard or are you just butthurt?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.

So is this an example of retardation or pretension?

Have you yet to think thru why someone COULD be offended by the use of retard or are you just butthurt?

See my above post, then continue fucking off.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 09, 2012, 08:39:41 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
Now, I realise that in some places, like work, that calling people out on their crap may not be the best thing to do on a personal level, especially if it doesn't relate directly to you/a colleague, and in a recession where your ass might get fired and another job might be not forthcoming. We all have to eat, pay bills, keep ourselves housed and clothed. It would be fucking awesome if we could speak up and not jeopardise our livelihoods, or personal safety, but if you are broke or in hospital or dead, you aren't much use to the practice of Calling People On Their Bullshit.

In a work situation you can report it to the higher ups. I've never been fired for doing this...even if the higher ups are assholes, they know this kind of shit is bad for business and in some cases, illegal.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -

Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 09, 2012, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.

So is this an example of retardation or pretension?

Have you yet to think thru why someone COULD be offended by the use of retard or are you just butthurt?

See my above post, then continue fucking off.

Where the fuck did this one come from, Dok?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -

Nope.  It in no way references brain damaged people in its current parlance.

But don't let that stand in the way of your self-righteous indignation.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:28 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 09, 2012, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

Yeah.  Take your false equivalence and fuck off.

So is this an example of retardation or pretension?

Have you yet to think thru why someone COULD be offended by the use of retard or are you just butthurt?

See my above post, then continue fucking off.

Where the fuck did this one come from, Dok?

Don't know, don't care.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -
But don't let that stand in the way of your self-righteous indignation.

pot - meet kettle - kettle this is pot
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -
But don't let that stand in the way of your self-righteous indignation.

pot - meet kettle - kettle this is pot

Why, yes, I'm the one that came in here and bashed the OP with a false equivalence.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:48:29 PM


Nope.  It in no way references brain damaged people in its current parlance.

[/quote]

Really? .... Really?

:roll:

Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 09, 2012, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:01:39 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:30:51 PM
I err towards full calling out cos some people are retarded, but it depends on how well you know your audience.

I do find it udderly ironic that in this thread, you chose "retarded" as the descriptor - slurs & degredation only count as a bad move towards race & gender? 

Not trying to flame anyone - this is a serious point that's been brought up a lot around me recently. Why is "retarded" not viewed as a degrading term to most people?

Most people are dumb.

A kid with brain damage is not a retard, in the current meaning of the word.  I believe they are called developmentally delayed or some such thing.  I prefer the term "brain damage", because that's what actually happened to the poor little buggers.

A person that CAN think, but WON'T, is a retard.

It's a nice justification but it seems to be just about the equivalent of "there's black people & then there's niggers"

"Retarded" simply means "slowed down". People started using it because it's kinder than "idiot".

Saying someone is "retarded" simply means that it's harder for them to learn things because their brain doesn't function properly. Nobody who wasn't a supreme fuckwad would walk up to a Down's kid and call him a retard. A "retard" is what Dok said. No organic brain damage, just a decision to close off and stay stupid. Which is the kind of person I suspect I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:50:29 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:48:29 PM
Really? .... Really?

:roll:

What an awe-inspiring argument.

Just keep digging.  You'll be out of that hole in no time.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -
But don't let that stand in the way of your self-righteous indignation.

pot - meet kettle - kettle this is pot

Why, yes, I'm the one that came in here and bashed the OP with a false equivalence.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Yeah pretty much.....considering I didn't bash anyone.....also considering the topic was about speaking up about offensive crap & this happens to be offensive to some folks - it might not be directly in your sphere, but it's still there -
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:43:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 08:41:01 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 08:40:04 PM
Using "retards" as a descriptor for non-brain damaged people does imply that "retard" is degredational -
But don't let that stand in the way of your self-righteous indignation.

pot - meet kettle - kettle this is pot

Why, yes, I'm the one that came in here and bashed the OP with a false equivalence.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!

Yeah pretty much.....considering I didn't bash anyone.....also considering the topic was about speaking up about offensive crap & this happens to be offensive to some folks - it might not be directly in your sphere, but it's still there -

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 09:07:52 PM
How about the word "bitch" - "as in this project is a real bitch" -

While it could be taken misogynistically, the statement could have origins related to dogs.

Not trying to pick a fight, just bringing some ideas out for discussion - so calm down UUUUNNNNGGGG

My wife works with the handicapped. This is a large are of discussion in her field. This is obviously a debatable subject. By saying "in no way" you've made some assumptions in the declaration of an absolute

Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:02:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSE82pNZQjs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSE82pNZQjs)
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LMNO on May 09, 2012, 11:38:19 PM
So, is your next move going to be claiming that "you suck" is homophobic?

Just curious how far you want to go down this sewer pipe.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:45:05 PM
I'm looking for the part where "retarded" CANNOT be considered insulting. Bollucks said they wouldn't walk up to a Down's kid & call them a retard - why is that? But calling someone a retard is "in no way" connected....     I hope you see where I'm going with this...

In the same line of thought of the OP - they're discussing calling others out things that they consider offensive. Retard does happen to be offensive to some people.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: AFK on May 09, 2012, 11:48:13 PM
Yeah, I've heard the same thing from the people I work with who work with special needs kids.  It is still considered to be a derogatory term by many, particularly people who have special needs children.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:50:51 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 09, 2012, 11:38:19 PM
So, is your next move going to be claiming that "you suck" is homophobic?

Just curious how far you want to go down this sewer pipe.

but yeah - I'll bite:

"You suck" - eh - not homophobic, could be insulting, could just be an observation

"you suck dick" - could be homophobic or it also could just be an observation
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: AFK on May 09, 2012, 11:51:18 PM
By that same token, these things do evolve over time.  I know black people who hate the term African-American because they feel little to no connection to Africa.  But a couple of decades ago, that was the 'correct' PC term.  It's interesting how these things change.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:53:07 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on May 09, 2012, 11:48:13 PM
Yeah, I've heard the same thing from the people I work with who work with special needs kids.  It is still considered to be a derogatory term by many, particularly people who have special needs children.

Exactly -
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LMNO on May 09, 2012, 11:55:55 PM
Perhaps you're familiar with the concept of hyperbole.

This world is odd enough that the chances of SOMEONE being offended by SOMETHING quickly approaches 1.

It might be helpful to know that pedantry is not taken well here. If your only argument is "a small percentage of people find "retard" as an epithet offensive, you're not going to find a receptive audience.

Ah-- new posts since I started writing. For the record "you suck" DID originate as a shorthand for "you suck dick". My parents, who grew up in the 40s and 50s, used to punish us for saying "suck" as much as if we said "faggot" or "bitch".

So, yeah. "suck" began as fag bashing. But you're ok with that.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 11:57:18 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:45:05 PM
I'm looking for the part where "retarded" CANNOT be considered insulting.

Of course its insulting.  It's implying that someone refuses to think.

Now, if we are going to insist that all words have their first/original meaning, we CAN do that.  It sounds fun.

But you can take your PC shit and jam it up your arse.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 09, 2012, 11:58:04 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on May 09, 2012, 11:51:18 PM
By that same token, these things do evolve over time.  I know black people who hate the term African-American because they feel little to no connection to Africa.  But a couple of decades ago, that was the 'correct' PC term.  It's interesting how these things change.

Right - they do evolve over time.

Is it up to white people to decide if it's black or african-american? Is it up to Germans to decide if Polish people are Poles or Polacks(sp?)? Is it up to the fully functioning to decide if retard is insulting?

Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 09, 2012, 11:58:11 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 09, 2012, 11:55:55 PM
Perhaps you're familiar with the concept of hyperbole.

This world is odd enough that the chances of SOMEONE being offended by SOMETHING quickly approaches 1.

It might be helpful to know that pedantry is not taken well here. If your only argument is "a small percentage of people find "retard" as an epithet offensive, you're not going to find a receptive audience.

Ah-- new posts since I started writing. For the record "you suck" DID originate as a shorthand for "you suck dick". My parents, who grew up in the 40s and 50s, used to punish us for saying "suck" as much as if we said "faggot" or "bitch".

So, yeah. "suck" began as fag bashing. But you're ok with that.

It's different when he does it.    :lulz:

For reasons that do not concern YOU.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 12:01:14 AM
If we're going to insist that all words still have their original meaning, that means that "Retarded" means, as Stella pointed out,

QuoteDefinition of RETARD
transitive verb
1
: to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment : impede
2
: to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive verb
: to undergo retardation
— re·tard·er noun

Examples of RETARD

    The chemical will retard the spread of fire.
    The problems have retarded the progress of the program.

Origin of RETARD
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
First Known Use: 15th century
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retarded

You're welcome.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:02:36 AM
Also, "faggot" is now acceptable, as it means "a small piece of wood".

Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:03:35 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:01:14 AM
If we're going to insist that all words still have their original meaning, that means that "Retarded" means, as Stella pointed out,

QuoteDefinition of RETARD
transitive verb
1
: to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment : impede
2
: to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive verb
: to undergo retardation
— re·tard·er noun

Examples of RETARD

    The chemical will retard the spread of fire.
    The problems have retarded the progress of the program.

Origin of RETARD
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
First Known Use: 15th century
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retarded

You're welcome.

Of course you realize, this means everyone in the 15th century was a complete bastard.

Um, which means their parents weren't married.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:07:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 09, 2012, 11:55:55 PM
So, yeah. "suck" began as fag bashing. But you're ok with that.

yeah  - fuck 'em - I don't know any fags anyway. so why should I care
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:08:02 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:07:10 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 09, 2012, 11:55:55 PM
So, yeah. "suck" began as fag bashing. But you're ok with that.

yeah  - fuck 'em - I don't know any fags anyway. so why should I care

:troll:

Pixie, if you want a thread split, just sound off.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:08:18 AM
I see that it only counts if the degredation is in the approved categories
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:08:44 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:08:18 AM
I see that it only counts if the degredation is in the approved categories

Stick a sock in it, troll boy.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:09:16 AM
I'm interested to see if the OP follows this - since somewhere this shit got way lost....
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:11:46 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:09:16 AM
I'm interested to see if the OP follows this - since somewhere this shit got way lost....

Might have had something to do with someone trolling the shit out of Pixie's thread, eh?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:12:55 AM
Idiot used to be a psychological diagnosis similar to retard. Same with moron.

Also things are less offensive if you say them with a boston accent.

Stahp bein a retahd kehd. We gaht a keggah tuh go tuh. Then we kin git retahded hammid dood. Itll be wickid pissah.

Twid
bostonian
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:13:43 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:12:55 AM
Idiot used to be a psychological diagnosis similar to retard. Same with moron.

Also things are less offensive if you say them with a boston accent.

Stahp bein a retahd kehd. We gaht a keggah tuh go tuh. Then we kin git retahded hammid dood. Itll be wickid pissah.

Twid
bostonian

That's because Boston people have brain damage from bean-poisoning and molasses-drowning.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 12:14:09 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:03:35 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:01:14 AM
If we're going to insist that all words still have their original meaning, that means that "Retarded" means, as Stella pointed out,

QuoteDefinition of RETARD
transitive verb
1
: to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment : impede
2
: to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive verb
: to undergo retardation
— re·tard·er noun

Examples of RETARD

    The chemical will retard the spread of fire.
    The problems have retarded the progress of the program.

Origin of RETARD
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
First Known Use: 15th century
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retarded

You're welcome.

Of course you realize, this means everyone in the 15th century was a complete bastard.

Um, which means their parents weren't married.

I am totally a bastard!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:14:53 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:14:09 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:03:35 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:01:14 AM
If we're going to insist that all words still have their original meaning, that means that "Retarded" means, as Stella pointed out,

QuoteDefinition of RETARD
transitive verb
1
: to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment : impede
2
: to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive verb
: to undergo retardation
— re·tard·er noun

Examples of RETARD

    The chemical will retard the spread of fire.
    The problems have retarded the progress of the program.

Origin of RETARD
Middle English, from Anglo-French or Latin; Anglo-French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
First Known Use: 15th century
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retarded

You're welcome.

Of course you realize, this means everyone in the 15th century was a complete bastard.

Um, which means their parents weren't married.

I am totally a bastard!

I'm not, but my grandmother was.

(Great Granny was a flapper.)
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:15:33 AM
Dont forget irish immigration. Fucking papist fenians ruined this town for law abiding boston brahmins. Seriously fuck the irish. Theyre a blight on this country. Send em all back to that auld sod of theirs.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 12:16:02 AM
Also I am rather fond of using "retarded" to describe something awesome. Like a retardedly nice piece of art or a sunset so pretty it's retarded.

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 12:18:29 AM
This thread is wickid retahdid.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:15:33 AM
Dont forget irish immigration. Fucking papist fenians ruined this town for law abiding boston brahmins. Seriously fuck the irish. Theyre a blight on this country. Send em all back to that auld sod of theirs.

There's too many of them, and the island would sink.  Imagine writing THAT environmental impact statement.

"The grand banks fisheries were wiped out last week by alcohol poisoning in the fish, after the sinking of Ireland 2 weeks ago..."
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:19:15 AM
Havin a wicked retahded time at tha keggah. Wickid pissah. I think that chick is gunna give me a wickid retahded hummah.

But yeah its like saying "dude that drummer is nasty." doesnt refer to his personal hygeine (even if that connotation still applies.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LMNO on May 10, 2012, 12:21:13 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:08:18 AM
I see that it only counts if the degredation is in the approved categories

Apparently you don't see the difference between directly saying "I don't like gays" and "I'm using a repurposed word that the majority of people don't link to the (not even original, but adopted) usage."

Yup. I call :troll:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:21:18 AM
Gogira- perfect usage of retahdid

dok- you got a point there but on the brightside it would eradicate those damn micks.

Faust can be spared an evacuated on account of greekness and well need the servers running for pd.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:23:04 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:21:18 AM
Gogira- perfect usage of retahdid

dok- you got a point there but on the brightside it would eradicate those damn micks.

Faust can be spared an evacuated on account of greekness and well need the servers running for pd.

Balls.  Irishmen can't drown, because water cannot pass their lips.  If you threw them in a barrel of cheap fucking whiskey, they'd be fucked.  Ocean water?  It would just get their silly tweed jackets soggy.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:23:16 AM
How am I trolling?

I bring up using the word "retarded". It wasn't directly addressed in the original post, but used later. As someone that is around the disabled community, I happen to know that "retarded" isn't cool - despite what you may think. It may be changing - language is constantly evolving.

In the spirit of the OP - I just wanted to start the conversation about it & was quickly told to fuck off.

So, to get back to it, It's not really up to me to police everyone else for this or that, but as we're talking about speaking up when you hear misogynist jokes or racial quips, I spoke up for something else.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:24:25 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:23:16 AM
How am I trolling?

I bring up using the word "retarded". It wasn't directly addressed in the original post, but used later. As someone that is around the disabled community, I happen to know that "retarded" isn't cool - despite what you may think. It may be changing - language is constantly evolving.

In the spirit of the OP - I just wanted to start the conversation about it & was quickly told to fuck off.

So, to get back to it, It's not really up to me to police everyone else for this or that, but as we're talking about speaking up when you hear misogynist jokes or racial quips, I spoke up for something else.

Sorry, you outed yourself already.  The troll stops working when you do that.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:26:41 AM
Hey dok- king's an irish last name. Only the irish would be so fucking pretentious to give a royal title for a surname. Fucking irish. I bet this liz here is irish.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:30:13 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:26:41 AM
Hey dok- king's an irish last name. Only the irish would be so fucking pretentious to give a royal title for a surname. Fucking irish. I bet this liz here is irish.

I didn't smell bog, but you could be right.

The other - much worse - possibility is that he's a Doors fan.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LMNO on May 10, 2012, 12:31:16 AM
You know what sucks? Cain wrote a brilliant essay on the Yakuza, one thread down, and we're wasting bytes on this retard.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: AFK on May 10, 2012, 12:31:27 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 10, 2012, 12:21:13 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:08:18 AM
I see that it only counts if the degredation is in the approved categories

Apparently you don't see the difference between directly saying "I don't like gays" and "I'm using a repurposed word that the majority of people don't link to the (not even original, but adopted) usage."

Yup. I call :troll:


Look, I have no interest in siding with who may or may not be a troll.  I will just respectfully submit that there are still a substantial number of people who still, rightly or wrongly, link 'retarded' to those with developmental disabilities and who do still take offense to the usage of the word.


I have to admit, for my personal sensibilities, I'm not particularly comfortable with that usage either, though I do have some personal connections that colors those sensibilities.  But, I'm also not about to suggest how people should or should not speak.  Free speech and all that.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:32:02 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 10, 2012, 12:31:16 AM
You know what sucks? Cain wrote a brilliant essay on the Yakuza, one thread down, and we're wasting bytes on this retard.

I'm saving that one for tomorrow.  I will have 2 hours with precisely nothing to do, and Cain's posts take some digesting.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 12:32:56 AM
Pretty much every queer I know uses the word "fag", usually affectionately. "What are you up to, ya fag?" "I was hanging out with a bunch of fags last night..."

Another one is "gay". It CAN be used offensively, but so much depends on context. Something can be gay (pejorative, meaning it's dumb... a word which no longer means "silent", btw) or someone can be gay (non-judgmental, meaning homosexual) or, a person can be gay for someone/something, which has positive connotations. I am totally gay for cones.

If you can't interpret language using context, you are failing at using that language.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 12:34:46 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 10, 2012, 12:31:16 AM
You know what sucks? Cain wrote a brilliant essay on the Yakuza, one thread down, and we're wasting bytes on this retard.

What makes you think that the replies in this thread are preventing people from replying in that thread?

I am kind of enjoying discussing the changing use of language, even though that's not really the intention of the OP.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:35:10 AM
Im killing time before i head to my aunts place. Im also not in the right headspace to deal with a yakuza thread at the moment. I am however in the mood to rip on filthy irish people. And it did cross my mind that s/he may be a doors fan but its likely that s/he is both.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 12:38:03 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:21:18 AM
Gogira- perfect usage of retahdid

dok- you got a point there but on the brightside it would eradicate those damn micks.

Faust can be spared an evacuated on account of greekness and well need the servers running for pd.

The best part is that without tone and non-verbal cues, there's no way to tell if my post was intended as an insult or a compliment.

edited to clarify pronouns
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:38:56 AM
I do have a friend that uses the word gay in the sense of retahdid. I tried to reform that too but it didnt work. And you know what? Considering that he started up a "help my neighbor get a sex change" fund i doubt he is in anyway homophobic. So  have at it dude. At least hes not irish.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:40:05 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:32:56 AM
Pretty much every queer I know uses the word "fag", usually affectionately. "What are you up to, ya fag?" "I was hanging out with a bunch of fags last night..."

Another one is "gay". It CAN be used offensively, but so much depends on context. Something can be gay (pejorative, meaning it's dumb... a word which no longer means "silent", btw) or someone can be gay (non-judgmental, meaning homosexual) or, a person can be gay for someone/something, which has positive connotations. I am totally gay for cones.

If you can't interpret language using context, you are failing at using that language.

Context is key, but is there a rationale or methodology as to who makes the decision over insulting or not? Can white people use the word "nigga" for instance? What is this "can"?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:41:03 AM
Gogira- exactly. Like: dood thats retahhhhhhdid. Good thing. Dood. Thatsretahdid. Bad thing.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:41:31 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:38:56 AM
I do have a friend that uses the word gay in the sense of retahdid. I tried to reform that too but it didnt work. And you know what? Considering that he started up a "help my neighbor get a sex change" fund i doubt he is in anyway homophobic. So  have at it dude. At least hes not irish.

Or Welsh.  :shudder:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:43:56 AM
Im a wasp and i have been given blanket permission to use the word nigga (which i still hate and feel can never be reformed). Even goaded into it by black friends. Kinda like my old roommates girlfriend who is black and we try to get her to say cracker. She wont play ball though. If its understood to not be offensive then it wont be taken as such within the context that its acceptable.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:47:21 AM
Dok at least the welsh have something the irish dont- british citizenship.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:48:07 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:47:21 AM
Dok at least the welsh have something the irish dont- british citizenship.

So they can get pepper-sprayed to death by Chelsea police but the Irish can't?

HEAVENS!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:49:47 AM
Yeah man. If anyone needs to get pepper sprayed its the goddamn irish.



Sigh. My countertroll is not working at all.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:53:31 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:49:47 AM
Yeah man. If anyone needs to get pepper sprayed its the goddamn irish.



Sigh. My countertroll is not working at all.

No, but I've been screen-shotting like a mad bastard.   :lulz:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 12:55:39 AM
:lulz: going to have to relinquish my passport to the consulate i guess.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 01:00:21 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:40:05 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 12:32:56 AM
Pretty much every queer I know uses the word "fag", usually affectionately. "What are you up to, ya fag?" "I was hanging out with a bunch of fags last night..."

Another one is "gay". It CAN be used offensively, but so much depends on context. Something can be gay (pejorative, meaning it's dumb... a word which no longer means "silent", btw) or someone can be gay (non-judgmental, meaning homosexual) or, a person can be gay for someone/something, which has positive connotations. I am totally gay for cones.

If you can't interpret language using context, you are failing at using that language.

Context is key, but is there a rationale or methodology as to who makes the decision over insulting or not? Can white people use the word "nigga" for instance? What is this "can"?

Yes, white people can use "nigga" or "nigger" without it being offensive, in the right context. I know several white people who use it regularly as part of their greeting between friends, and is it non-offensive.

For that matter, I have a friend who regularly addresses her friends as "bitches and homosexuals", and it is non-offensive.

Context is important. If you want to play amateur anthropologist, that's a pretty crucial thing to be aware of.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 01:01:58 AM
Who decides whether it is offensive? The people speaking, combined with the people hearing.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 01:20:28 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 01:01:58 AM
Yes, white people can use "nigga" or "nigger" without it being offensive, in the right context. I know several white people who use it regularly as part of their greeting between friends, and is it non-offensive.

For that matter, I have a friend who regularly addresses her friends as "bitches and homosexuals", and it is non-offensive.

Context is important. If you want to play amateur anthropologist, that's a pretty crucial thing to be aware of.

Yeah - even with context taken into account amongst speaker and intended audience, variances in just location can make or break offensiveness as well. There's the whole aspect of intended vs. unintented audience - passers-by, etc.


Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 10, 2012, 01:30:43 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 12:23:16 AM
How am I trolling?

I bring up using the word "retarded". It wasn't directly addressed in the original post, but used later. As someone that is around the disabled community, I happen to know that "retarded" isn't cool - despite what you may think. It may be changing - language is constantly evolving.

In the spirit of the OP - I just wanted to start the conversation about it & was quickly told to fuck off.

So, to get back to it, It's not really up to me to police everyone else for this or that, but as we're talking about speaking up when you hear misogynist jokes or racial quips, I spoke up for something else.

That's SPECIAL.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 10, 2012, 01:32:18 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 12:30:13 AM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 12:26:41 AM
Hey dok- king's an irish last name. Only the irish would be so fucking pretentious to give a royal title for a surname. Fucking irish. I bet this liz here is irish.

I didn't smell bog, but you could be right.

The other - much worse - possibility is that he's a Doors fan.

My money's on Doors fan.
One of those Doors fans who thinks everything Jim said when he was snot-slinging drunk is PROFOUND.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Salty on May 10, 2012, 02:35:21 AM
1. Pixie: FUCK YEAH. This is a subject near and dear to me and this was awesome.

2. This noob is very nice, if you know what I mean
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 10, 2012, 03:02:25 AM
Quote from: Alty on May 10, 2012, 02:35:21 AM
1. Pixie: FUCK YEAH. This is a subject near and dear to me and this was awesome.

2. This noob is very nice, if you know what I mean

Told you guys the noob was special.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 07:57:52 AM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 01:20:28 AM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 01:01:58 AM
Yes, white people can use "nigga" or "nigger" without it being offensive, in the right context. I know several white people who use it regularly as part of their greeting between friends, and is it non-offensive.

For that matter, I have a friend who regularly addresses her friends as "bitches and homosexuals", and it is non-offensive.

Context is important. If you want to play amateur anthropologist, that's a pretty crucial thing to be aware of.

Yeah - even with context taken into account amongst speaker and intended audience, variances in just location can make or break offensiveness as well. There's the whole aspect of intended vs. unintented audience - passers-by, etc.

That is true of any use of language, anywhere, ever.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.

I know several white people who regularly say "What is up, my nigger?" in a context that completely breaks it down to an inoffensive level. Consider this context: You are black. You telephone your close friend. Friend answers the phone with "What is up, my nigger?" in an American business patois. Offensive, or affectionate?

Another: White friend enters a room of mixed race. White friend says (addressing everyone) "HEY NIGGAS!"

Or, white person enters a room of white friends: "HEY NIGGAS!"

As a (legally, LOL) black person in America, these are generally perceived to be non-offensive.

Offensive, or affectionate? Context provides the answers. FFS, me and my friends have a game we call "That's how you know you're really gangster". We do shit like go to the hardware store for a new toilet flush system. Friend texts, "Yo, bitch, just at the hardware store for some home improvement; THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW YOU'RE REALLY GANGSTER".

Is that racist? Or is it just (provided by context) some funny riffing? We all grow up. A guy who was once really punk rock might be at the store buying milk for his kids. You say "MILK, FUCK YEAH! YOU'RE PAF!"

Does that mean you are displaying bigotry against punks?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 10, 2012, 09:57:20 AM
nah, I don't want a thread split. I got het up and used a questionable word that an outsider to our board culture would definitely find offensive. Hyperbole  from frustration can be misconstrued, and outside of the context of this board, is something that irritates me. How about I promise to return to the insult of my father's land, eejit, to refer to those who JUST DON'T GET IT. 

In fairness to the n00b, my sister has acquired brain damage and if someone called her a retard I'd be hella pissed, and tear them a new one.  Same if someone played the "MENTAL" card on my older sister, who has a severe mental illness.

So I hold my hands up and say, yea, that was hypocritical when taken in the context of the rant, and thank the N00b for calling me out on my shit. All the people I have met with developmental disabilities have been wonderful, sweet people, who are positive and all kinds of awesome compared with the rest of the population of this planet, who SUCK.

Can we stop fighting now?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 10, 2012, 10:14:06 AM
Eejit is a more flavourful word, anyhow.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 10:19:42 AM
Im fond of it myself.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 11:52:58 AM
Quote from: Pixie on May 10, 2012, 10:14:06 AM
Eejit is a more flavourful word, anyhow.

Too Terry Wogan for my taste
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.

I know several white people who regularly say "What is up, my nigger?" in a context that completely breaks it down to an inoffensive level. Consider this context: You are black. You telephone your close friend. Friend answers the phone with "What is up, my nigger?" in an American business patois. Offensive, or affectionate?

Another: White friend enters a room of mixed race. White friend says (addressing everyone) "HEY NIGGAS!"

Or, white person enters a room of white friends: "HEY NIGGAS!"

As a (legally, LOL) black person in America, these are generally perceived to be non-offensive.

Offensive, or affectionate? Context provides the answers. FFS, me and my friends have a game we call "That's how you know you're really gangster". We do shit like go to the hardware store for a new toilet flush system. Friend texts, "Yo, bitch, just at the hardware store for some home improvement; THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW YOU'RE REALLY GANGSTER".

Is that racist? Or is it just (provided by context) some funny riffing? We all grow up. A guy who was once really punk rock might be at the store buying milk for his kids. You say "MILK, FUCK YEAH! YOU'RE PAF!"

Does that mean you are displaying bigotry against punks?

Those all sound pretty inoffensive, but like someone said earlier it's all about the participants in the conversation. Since I can't say those words comfortably in most contexts (even objectively non-offensive ones) it comes off as offensive if I attempt it.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 01:23:59 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.

I know several white people who regularly say "What is up, my nigger?" in a context that completely breaks it down to an inoffensive level. Consider this context: You are black. You telephone your close friend. Friend answers the phone with "What is up, my nigger?" in an American business patois. Offensive, or affectionate?

Another: White friend enters a room of mixed race. White friend says (addressing everyone) "HEY NIGGAS!"

Or, white person enters a room of white friends: "HEY NIGGAS!"

As a (legally, LOL) black person in America, these are generally perceived to be non-offensive.

Offensive, or affectionate? Context provides the answers. FFS, me and my friends have a game we call "That's how you know you're really gangster". We do shit like go to the hardware store for a new toilet flush system. Friend texts, "Yo, bitch, just at the hardware store for some home improvement; THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW YOU'RE REALLY GANGSTER".

Is that racist? Or is it just (provided by context) some funny riffing? We all grow up. A guy who was once really punk rock might be at the store buying milk for his kids. You say "MILK, FUCK YEAH! YOU'RE PAF!"

Does that mean you are displaying bigotry against punks?

Those all sound pretty inoffensive, but like someone said earlier it's all about the participants in the conversation. Since I can't say those words comfortably in most contexts (even objectively non-offensive ones) it comes off as offensive if I attempt it.

It seems to be a somewhat regional thing as well - not going for the whole deep south thing, more like just a difference in cultures. As you move around the country, just as if you move around the world- different words hold different values for different people. For instance "niggerrig" - I grew up hearing it & never really thought it to be derogatory until later in life & a subsequent move to a different area.

Like what I mentioned about intended vs unintended audience, its a gray area - there's no defined line. Especially when you're out in a public setting - like for instance a sporting event, joking around "you're retarded" in jest. Say there's a special needs kid or parent behind you...

as far as any fighting goes, the assertions of pedantry in this case call for counter assertions of myopia -
http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx (http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx)
http://r-word.org/ (http://r-word.org/)


Is this some sort of, for lack of better term, an ownership issue?

I don't know if I can word that correctly, but it seems like certain words lose there bite when the groups that are attached to the pejorative usage basically say it's OK.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: AFK on May 10, 2012, 01:29:37 PM
In the end, it becomes a question of manners and respect, and just being aware of your surroundings.  And I think it is a two way street.  That is, as much as the person saying the words has a responsibility for how their conduct may affect others, those that are offended too have a responsibility to voice their offense.  Because that is the only way things can possibly change.  But it should also be recognized as a learning opportunity for both ends.  That can be difficult, to be sure, in the heat of the moment, but will be a net positive overall. 
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 10, 2012, 02:16:11 PM
Quote from: Bruce Twillis on May 10, 2012, 10:19:42 AM
Im fond of it myself.

best prefixed by Fecking , and said quickly.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 10, 2012, 02:18:09 PM
Yup. Sometimes feckinyooslisseejit too.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 02:28:27 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on May 10, 2012, 01:29:37 PM
In the end, it becomes a question of manners and respect, and just being aware of your surroundings.  And I think it is a two way street.  That is, as much as the person saying the words has a responsibility for how their conduct may affect others, those that are offended too have a responsibility to voice their offense.  Because that is the only way things can possibly change.  But it should also be recognized as a learning opportunity for both ends.  That can be difficult, to be sure, in the heat of the moment, but will be a net positive overall.

Also, bringing it up makes it immediately clear if someone was legitimately attempting to use the term in question in a non-offensive manner and just didn't pull it off, or if they're just a douchenozzle.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 10, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 01:23:59 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.

I know several white people who regularly say "What is up, my nigger?" in a context that completely breaks it down to an inoffensive level. Consider this context: You are black. You telephone your close friend. Friend answers the phone with "What is up, my nigger?" in an American business patois. Offensive, or affectionate?

Another: White friend enters a room of mixed race. White friend says (addressing everyone) "HEY NIGGAS!"

Or, white person enters a room of white friends: "HEY NIGGAS!"

As a (legally, LOL) black person in America, these are generally perceived to be non-offensive.

Offensive, or affectionate? Context provides the answers. FFS, me and my friends have a game we call "That's how you know you're really gangster". We do shit like go to the hardware store for a new toilet flush system. Friend texts, "Yo, bitch, just at the hardware store for some home improvement; THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW YOU'RE REALLY GANGSTER".

Is that racist? Or is it just (provided by context) some funny riffing? We all grow up. A guy who was once really punk rock might be at the store buying milk for his kids. You say "MILK, FUCK YEAH! YOU'RE PAF!"

Does that mean you are displaying bigotry against punks?

Those all sound pretty inoffensive, but like someone said earlier it's all about the participants in the conversation. Since I can't say those words comfortably in most contexts (even objectively non-offensive ones) it comes off as offensive if I attempt it.

It seems to be a somewhat regional thing as well - not going for the whole deep south thing, more like just a difference in cultures. As you move around the country, just as if you move around the world- different words hold different values for different people. For instance "niggerrig" - I grew up hearing it & never really thought it to be derogatory until later in life & a subsequent move to a different area.

Like what I mentioned about intended vs unintended audience, its a gray area - there's no defined line. Especially when you're out in a public setting - like for instance a sporting event, joking around "you're retarded" in jest. Say there's a special needs kid or parent behind you...

as far as any fighting goes, the assertions of pedantry in this case call for counter assertions of myopia -
http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx (http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx)
http://r-word.org/ (http://r-word.org/)


Is this some sort of, for lack of better term, an ownership issue?

I don't know if I can word that correctly, but it seems like certain words lose there bite when the groups that are attached to the pejorative usage basically say it's OK.

Retard was never used as a pejorative, as far as I am aware, in the UK for people with learning disabilities.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 04:04:15 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 10, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: LizKing531 on May 10, 2012, 01:23:59 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 10, 2012, 02:15:42 AM
The only context I feel even marginally okay dropping n-bombs in is "potato nigger." Or telling people that free speech includes the right to say "niggertits" even if it is terribly offensive.

I know several white people who regularly say "What is up, my nigger?" in a context that completely breaks it down to an inoffensive level. Consider this context: You are black. You telephone your close friend. Friend answers the phone with "What is up, my nigger?" in an American business patois. Offensive, or affectionate?

Another: White friend enters a room of mixed race. White friend says (addressing everyone) "HEY NIGGAS!"

Or, white person enters a room of white friends: "HEY NIGGAS!"

As a (legally, LOL) black person in America, these are generally perceived to be non-offensive.

Offensive, or affectionate? Context provides the answers. FFS, me and my friends have a game we call "That's how you know you're really gangster". We do shit like go to the hardware store for a new toilet flush system. Friend texts, "Yo, bitch, just at the hardware store for some home improvement; THAT'S HOW YOU KNOW YOU'RE REALLY GANGSTER".

Is that racist? Or is it just (provided by context) some funny riffing? We all grow up. A guy who was once really punk rock might be at the store buying milk for his kids. You say "MILK, FUCK YEAH! YOU'RE PAF!"

Does that mean you are displaying bigotry against punks?

Those all sound pretty inoffensive, but like someone said earlier it's all about the participants in the conversation. Since I can't say those words comfortably in most contexts (even objectively non-offensive ones) it comes off as offensive if I attempt it.

It seems to be a somewhat regional thing as well - not going for the whole deep south thing, more like just a difference in cultures. As you move around the country, just as if you move around the world- different words hold different values for different people. For instance "niggerrig" - I grew up hearing it & never really thought it to be derogatory until later in life & a subsequent move to a different area.

Like what I mentioned about intended vs unintended audience, its a gray area - there's no defined line. Especially when you're out in a public setting - like for instance a sporting event, joking around "you're retarded" in jest. Say there's a special needs kid or parent behind you...

as far as any fighting goes, the assertions of pedantry in this case call for counter assertions of myopia -
http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx (http://www.specialolympics.org/coalition.aspx)
http://r-word.org/ (http://r-word.org/)


Is this some sort of, for lack of better term, an ownership issue?

I don't know if I can word that correctly, but it seems like certain words lose there bite when the groups that are attached to the pejorative usage basically say it's OK.

Retard was never used as a pejorative, as far as I am aware, in the UK for people with learning disabilities.

Differences in regional language use are really relevant. For example, the words "cunt", "fanny", and "bloody" are used entirely differently in the UK than in the US.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 04:04:15 PM
Differences in regional language use are really relevant. For example, the words "cunt", "fanny", and "bloody" are used entirely differently in the UK than in the US.
[/quote]

The BBC apparently surveyed attitudes to "language" [read bad language] use a couple of years ago .
http://arstechnica.com/business/2010/06/are-you-a-wanker-if-you-say-retard-on-british-television/

The unacceptability of retard/retarded I found quite interesting
Your examples intrigued me Nigel so I tried to guage my own elderly brit attitude to them
On a scale of 1-10 the "c" word was an 11 The first time I said Fuck to my Dad he slapped my leg so hard that I still had the handprint two days later - believe me when I say I would NEVER have used the c word in his presence; though he is long dead now and its a word I not infrequently use though almost always to indicate the severity of my feeling/reaction.

I find fanny a kind of quaint and amusing 5/10- when I was a girl it always made me laugh that my prissy maiden aunt always censored my fanny to "Frances". But then she reckoned I had a "Bim" because she just couldn't bear to say the word "bum" because it was "common" - common being different from rude, of course.  Nowadays people habitually "fanny about" - just seems to be a pretty vanilla term.

Bloody; I am at a loss over that one. Yes its a venerable contraction of "by our lady", and the quintessential British vulgarism. Acceptabilty level high, hardly swearing at all. 1/10

So thats internal girly bits/cunt, external girly bits/fanny and damned if I know for bloody just a ubiquitously useful swearword.
So what's the American take on these then?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Don Coyote on May 10, 2012, 04:48:02 PM
I use 'bloody' a lot to replace 'fucking' especially on FB after my mother said she would block and unfriend me if I didn't stop using 'fuck' all the time. She of course did this on my wall. :argh!:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 10, 2012, 04:54:30 PM
Quote from: The 3 wolf moon is a harsh SHUTUP on May 10, 2012, 04:48:02 PM
I use 'bloody' a lot to replace 'fucking' especially on FB after my mother said she would block and unfriend me if I didn't stop using 'fuck' all the time. She of course did this on my wall. :argh!:

So you told her to Fuck Off?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 05:20:11 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 04:04:15 PM

Differences in regional language use are really relevant. For example, the words "cunt", "fanny", and "bloody" are used entirely differently in the UK than in the US.

The BBC apparently surveyed attitudes to "language" [read bad language] use a couple of years ago .
http://arstechnica.com/business/2010/06/are-you-a-wanker-if-you-say-retard-on-british-television/

The unacceptability of retard/retarded I found quite interesting
Your examples intrigued me Nigel so I tried to guage my own elderly brit attitude to them
On a scale of 1-10 the "c" word was an 11 The first time I said Fuck to my Dad he slapped my leg so hard that I still had the handprint two days later - believe me when I say I would NEVER have used the c word in his presence; though he is long dead now and its a word I not infrequently use though almost always to indicate the severity of my feeling/reaction.

I find fanny a kind of quaint and amusing 5/10- when I was a girl it always made me laugh that my prissy maiden aunt always censored my fanny to "Frances". But then she reckoned I had a "Bim" because she just couldn't bear to say the word "bum" because it was "common" - common being different from rude, of course.  Nowadays people habitually "fanny about" - just seems to be a pretty vanilla term.

Bloody; I am at a loss over that one. Yes its a venerable contraction of "by our lady", and the quintessential British vulgarism. Acceptabilty level high, hardly swearing at all. 1/10

So thats internal girly bits/cunt, external girly bits/fanny and damned if I know for bloody just a ubiquitously useful swearword.
So what's the American take on these then?

In the US, "cunt" is one of the worst words out there, on par with "nigger" for being offensive. "Fanny" is either a name (such as in the Fanny Farmer cookbook), or a delicate way to refer to a person's backside... and "bum" is a word for an indigent drunk. "Bloody" is not a swear word in any way, shape, or form, it's just a literal term that means something is bleeding.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 05:21:18 PM
Oh yeah, and "wanker" is just an amusing Britishism.  :lulz:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 05:21:18 PM
Oh yeah, and "wanker" is just an amusing Britishism.  :lulz:

For the longest time hearing americans use wanker casually on the TV to make my jaw drop, in a totally sniggering sort of way. Always made me want to pat America on the head for not knowing what it meant. But then I always had a problem with funky myself, which got britified into cool and groovy [yeah, its my age, humour me] when I believe its something to do with bad smells? correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 10, 2012, 05:44:54 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 05:39:27 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 05:21:18 PM
Oh yeah, and "wanker" is just an amusing Britishism.  :lulz:

For the longest time hearing americans use wanker casually on the TV to make my jaw drop, in a totally sniggering sort of way. Always made me want to pat America on the head for not knowing what it meant. But then I always had a problem with funky myself, which got britified into cool and groovy [yeah, its my age, humour me] when I believe its something to do with bad smells? correct me if I'm wrong.

"Funky" has multiple uses. A bad smell: "My fridge smells funky, I think something's gone bad in there". A mood: "I think I might have depression, I've just felt funky lately". A music genre related to R&B: "I love those funky beats!" and a cool sense of style: "She's got an awesomely funky wardrobe".
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 10, 2012, 06:09:13 PM
Scotland is split over cunt. Posh fucks seem to think it's the devils own word but for the rest of us it's not even derogatory, it's just a synonym for "person" eg. "Who's round is it?" - "This cunt here"

I've got into trouble before, specially around english, saying something along the lines of "holy fuck, you're a big cunt" when being introduced to an exceedingly tall person, for instance :lulz:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 05:20:11 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 04:44:14 PM
Quote from: FUCK OFF on May 10, 2012, 04:04:15 PM

Differences in regional language use are really relevant. For example, the words "cunt", "fanny", and "bloody" are used entirely differently in the UK than in the US.

The BBC apparently surveyed attitudes to "language" [read bad language] use a couple of years ago .
http://arstechnica.com/business/2010/06/are-you-a-wanker-if-you-say-retard-on-british-television/

The unacceptability of retard/retarded I found quite interesting
Your examples intrigued me Nigel so I tried to guage my own elderly brit attitude to them
On a scale of 1-10 the "c" word was an 11 The first time I said Fuck to my Dad he slapped my leg so hard that I still had the handprint two days later - believe me when I say I would NEVER have used the c word in his presence; though he is long dead now and its a word I not infrequently use though almost always to indicate the severity of my feeling/reaction.

I find fanny a kind of quaint and amusing 5/10- when I was a girl it always made me laugh that my prissy maiden aunt always censored my fanny to "Frances". But then she reckoned I had a "Bim" because she just couldn't bear to say the word "bum" because it was "common" - common being different from rude, of course.  Nowadays people habitually "fanny about" - just seems to be a pretty vanilla term.

Bloody; I am at a loss over that one. Yes its a venerable contraction of "by our lady", and the quintessential British vulgarism. Acceptabilty level high, hardly swearing at all. 1/10

So thats internal girly bits/cunt, external girly bits/fanny and damned if I know for bloody just a ubiquitously useful swearword.
So what's the American take on these then?

In the US, "cunt" is one of the worst words out there, on par with "nigger" for being offensive. "Fanny" is either a name (such as in the Fanny Farmer cookbook), or a delicate way to refer to a person's backside... and "bum" is a word for an indigent drunk. "Bloody" is not a swear word in any way, shape, or form, it's just a literal term that means something is bleeding.

"Cunt" is used in the trades to describe a piece of equipment that is being balky...IE, "This gasket's being a cunt.  It won't stay where I put it."

From what I gather, "cunt" in England is actually a form of punctuation.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 06:49:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 06:23:05 PM
"Cunt" is used in the trades to describe a piece of equipment that is being balky...IE, "This gasket's being a cunt.  It won't stay where I put it."

From what I gather, "cunt" in England is actually a form of punctuation.

I think that's quite a recent development, you see we don't "cee and blind" we "eff and blind", with cunting in the last 30 years or so edging the more traditional fucking gently to one side. Or there again maybe its just an influx of dirty mouthed Scots ;) 
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 10, 2012, 07:23:01 PM
funny cunt  :lulz:
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 08:18:29 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 10, 2012, 07:23:01 PM
funny cunt  :lulz:

Sodding right  8)
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 11:53:14 PM
Quote from: MMIX on May 10, 2012, 06:49:22 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 10, 2012, 06:23:05 PM
"Cunt" is used in the trades to describe a piece of equipment that is being balky...IE, "This gasket's being a cunt.  It won't stay where I put it."

From what I gather, "cunt" in England is actually a form of punctuation.

I think that's quite a recent development, you see we don't "cee and blind" we "eff and blind", with cunting in the last 30 years or so edging the more traditional fucking gently to one side. Or there again maybe its just an influx of dirty mouthed Scots ;)

Actually, I'm referring to the middle ages as well.

How many English cities have a "Grope Lane"?  That used to be "Grope Cunt Lane", which was the red light district's English name from the 1300s to the 1700s.  Likewise, there's more than a few extant English sources from the Victorian age that flung the word around all over the place.

Also, I've been to England many times, and they need no help in that department from the Scots, who mostly grunt and whistle to communicate.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 11, 2012, 05:08:02 AM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
I offer a hypothetical scenario. A group of people are in a social situation, and someone says something that is sexist, racist, homophobic yada yada. Imagine this group is a bunch of white guys, and it's a rape joke or similar mysogynistic bullshit, some flippant assed comment on a person of colour, or a non-hetero person.

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are. They may claim that they don't actually believe the shit they are saying, or "I was just being ironic" or some lame assed crap, but they need to be reminded that although they may not believe it, some wankers MIGHT. And by telling their shitty joke, laughing at it, or not rebuking someone, you are telling them that this shit is okay. It's a pretty dickish move. I think it is especially important to do this if you are a straight man, a white man or someone who isn't usually shat on by this behaviour, cos the wimmens, the POC and teh Gheys need allies in the War Against Bullshit.

Now, I realise that in some places, like work, that calling people out on their crap may not be the best thing to do on a personal level, especially if it doesn't relate directly to you/a colleague, and in a recession where your ass might get fired and another job might be not forthcoming. We all have to eat, pay bills, keep ourselves housed and clothed. It would be fucking awesome if we could speak up and not jeopardise our livelihoods, or personal safety, but if you are broke or in hospital or dead, you aren't much use to the practice of Calling People On Their Bullshit.

In a social situation, however the stakes aren't anywhere near as high.  All you have to lose is a douchenozzle, and we could all stand to have less of them in our lives. If you don't lose someone, and they start to, heaven forbid, THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK or start calling people on their crap, well, you have just done the world a solid. If you do this, I wont salute you, or buy you a drink (unless you did it with Style and Wit, then I'll buy you a drink for being a Glorious Faggot) cos you have merely been a decent biped, and by rights, this should be your default setting.

OR FUCKING KILL ME.

I think the optimal response in this situation would be to counter with an equally offensive remark targeted at the offender.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 13, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
I'm kind of with RWHN in that I often bristle at the word retard and for pretty much the same reason...being around people who got very offended by it. Most of the time though, I don't even notice it. In Roger's post, for instance, until it was pointed out, it blew right by me.

But like Roger I only ever bother bristling out loud if there's some shit's and giggle's in it. Dated a derby girl for about a year. We'd go drinking after practice. She's still in her hot-pants and fish-nets. Cat calls would happen. I'm not the jealous type, and she sure as fuck wasn't a dainty little flower in need of my protection, but if I'm in the mood for a little wrasslin', dude's getting thumped.

Also, I use "bitch" purely and exclusively as a term of respect. Just getting that out there in case I ever accidentally hit someone's PC bone by forgetting to edit out "that bitch separated shoulders for recreation, so she sure as fuck wasn't afraid to beat down some 22-year-old drunken douche-bag, if she thought it needed to happen."
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2012, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on May 13, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
I'm kind of with RWHN in that I often bristle at the word retard and for pretty much the same reason...being around people who got very offended by it. Most of the time though, I don't even notice it. In Roger's post, for instance, until it was pointed out, it blew right by me.


In whose post?
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 14, 2012, 04:38:19 AM
Quote from: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on May 11, 2012, 05:08:02 AM
Quote from: Pixie on May 09, 2012, 06:15:28 PM
I offer a hypothetical scenario. A group of people are in a social situation, and someone says something that is sexist, racist, homophobic yada yada. Imagine this group is a bunch of white guys, and it's a rape joke or similar mysogynistic bullshit, some flippant assed comment on a person of colour, or a non-hetero person.

So you're in the pub with your mates, having a generally good time, and someone pipes up with this crap. If you laugh out of discomfort, or shuffle on your seat and say nothing, YOU ARE TELLING THEM THAT THIS SHIT IS NORMAL, ACCEPTABLE. You are reinforcing the shitty status quo.  You may disagree with them, you may think it's a shitty thing to say, but if you don't OPEN YOUR FUCKING MOUTH AND CALL THEM ON IT, you are just as bad as they are. They may claim that they don't actually believe the shit they are saying, or "I was just being ironic" or some lame assed crap, but they need to be reminded that although they may not believe it, some wankers MIGHT. And by telling their shitty joke, laughing at it, or not rebuking someone, you are telling them that this shit is okay. It's a pretty dickish move. I think it is especially important to do this if you are a straight man, a white man or someone who isn't usually shat on by this behaviour, cos the wimmens, the POC and teh Gheys need allies in the War Against Bullshit.

Now, I realise that in some places, like work, that calling people out on their crap may not be the best thing to do on a personal level, especially if it doesn't relate directly to you/a colleague, and in a recession where your ass might get fired and another job might be not forthcoming. We all have to eat, pay bills, keep ourselves housed and clothed. It would be fucking awesome if we could speak up and not jeopardise our livelihoods, or personal safety, but if you are broke or in hospital or dead, you aren't much use to the practice of Calling People On Their Bullshit.

In a social situation, however the stakes aren't anywhere near as high.  All you have to lose is a douchenozzle, and we could all stand to have less of them in our lives. If you don't lose someone, and they start to, heaven forbid, THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK or start calling people on their crap, well, you have just done the world a solid. If you do this, I wont salute you, or buy you a drink (unless you did it with Style and Wit, then I'll buy you a drink for being a Glorious Faggot) cos you have merely been a decent biped, and by rights, this should be your default setting.

OR FUCKING KILL ME.

I think the optimal response in this situation would be to counter with an equally offensive remark targeted at the offender.

Yea, like the next time my housemate makes a fat joke about some lassie imma point out his imminent bald patch, because I know he's sensitive about it., and watching him froth will be amusing. and then I shall utter "well now you know how it feels for people to make derogatory remarks about your appearance."
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 14, 2012, 04:50:37 AM
Urgh, living here is really not good for my stress/rage levels, especially as last week, when I tried to enforce my boundaries with one of them concerning manners, he flipped out and yelled at me.

He later told Payne that he was out of line, BUT STILL HAS NOT APOLOGISED TO ME, the one he flipped out at.

And Payne still considers him a friend. :( (he has, however said that the Ginger One will have to find a new place to live at the end of the tenancy, but...uuurgh.) I don't quite get it, if the shoe were on the other foot I'd be hella pissed at anyone that was out of line with Payne.

Man, I hate living here.

I wrapped the other one's dreadlocks today with embroidery thread, but subtly implied that I would only do so after we had all participated in the housecleaning, like some weird pavlovian housetraining. The approach is working, though!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 14, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 04:50:37 AM
And Payne still considers him a friend. :(

You don't side against your SO in a case like this, or even condone the other person's behavior.

Payne needs Holy Instruction™.  Give it to him.  WIFF A MEATHAMMAH!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 14, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 14, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 04:50:37 AM
And Payne still considers him a friend. :(

You don't side against your SO in a case like this, or even condone the other person's behavior.

Payne needs Holy Instruction™.  Give it to him.  WIFF A MEATHAMMAH!

Payne did not condone the behaviour, but I think he needs to summon up his rage gland and stop being  as reasonable to the guy.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Triple Zero on May 14, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 10, 2012, 04:04:15 PM
Differences in regional language use are really relevant. For example, the words "cunt", "fanny", and "bloody" are used entirely differently in the UK than in the US.

"Fanny" -- comparing something to a fan.

Anyway, I'd be careful using the word "retard" among people that I know have a mentally challenged person in their family or close friends. But that's just me.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 14, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
As a 30 bostonian- fanny is one of two things. A) the name of a really old woman b) the word that a really prudish old person uses in place of the word ass. Or butt. Or backside. Really its that silly sounding. Its on par with bum-bum.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: MMIX on May 15, 2012, 01:00:57 AM
Quote from: Chronicles of Twiddick on May 14, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
As a 30 bostonian- fanny is one of two things. A) the name of a really old woman b) the word that a really prudish old person uses in place of the word ass. Or butt. Or backside. Really its that silly sounding. Its on par with bum-bum.

So is a fanny an asshole or a buttock? Inquiring  minds &c
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Epimetheus on May 15, 2012, 05:20:13 AM
Quote from: MMIX on May 15, 2012, 01:00:57 AM
Quote from: Chronicles of Twiddick on May 14, 2012, 10:37:10 PM
As a 30 bostonian- fanny is one of two things. A) the name of a really old woman b) the word that a really prudish old person uses in place of the word ass. Or butt. Or backside. Really its that silly sounding. Its on par with bum-bum.

So is a fanny an asshole or a buttock? Inquiring  minds &c

It's the full package, as far as asses go.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 15, 2012, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 14, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 04:50:37 AM
And Payne still considers him a friend. :(

You don't side against your SO in a case like this, or even condone the other person's behavior.

Payne needs Holy Instruction™.  Give it to him.  WIFF A MEATHAMMAH!

Payne did not condone the behaviour, but I think he needs to summon up his rage gland and stop being  as reasonable to the guy.

Everything has a time and a place.  There is a time and a place to be reasonable.  Sometimes, you aren't supposed to be reasonable.  This is one of those times.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 15, 2012, 02:34:00 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 15, 2012, 01:40:27 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 14, 2012, 01:43:11 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 14, 2012, 04:50:37 AM
And Payne still considers him a friend. :(

You don't side against your SO in a case like this, or even condone the other person's behavior.

Payne needs Holy Instruction™.  Give it to him.  WIFF A MEATHAMMAH!

Payne did not condone the behaviour, but I think he needs to summon up his rage gland and stop being  as reasonable to the guy.

Everything has a time and a place.  There is a time and a place to be reasonable.  Sometimes, you aren't supposed to be reasonable.  This is one of those times.

yep, has been a week since Ginger one flipped out at me, and still no apology... I could understand if it was a couple of days after Payne spoke to him (apparently he did not want it to seem forced)  I have decided that WE as a couple need to have a chat about this and then both hold the ginger one to account. I are putting my foot down.

I think I have let Payne take the lead on this (bad move) because he doesn't have much luck in making friends, and is a long way from home. Also Payne is a do most anything to avoid conflict kind of guy.

Man I had doubts about the situation before we moved in. I should have listened to my instincts on this one.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 15, 2012, 02:56:53 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 15, 2012, 02:34:00 PM
I should have listened to my instincts on this one.

I want that on my tombstone.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Pope Pixie Pickle on May 15, 2012, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 15, 2012, 02:56:53 PM
Quote from: Pixie on May 15, 2012, 02:34:00 PM
I should have listened to my instincts on this one.

I want that on my tombstone.

AMEN! FUCKING PREACH IT!
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on May 15, 2012, 08:39:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2012, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on May 13, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
I'm kind of with RWHN in that I often bristle at the word retard and for pretty much the same reason...being around people who got very offended by it. Most of the time though, I don't even notice it. In Roger's post, for instance, until it was pointed out, it blew right by me.


In whose post?

Heh...see...I really don't notice it.
Title: Re: A Treatise On Calling People On Their Bullshit.
Post by: Doktor Howl on May 15, 2012, 08:45:57 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on May 15, 2012, 08:39:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 13, 2012, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on May 13, 2012, 08:44:46 AM
I'm kind of with RWHN in that I often bristle at the word retard and for pretty much the same reason...being around people who got very offended by it. Most of the time though, I don't even notice it. In Roger's post, for instance, until it was pointed out, it blew right by me.


In whose post?

Heh...see...I really don't notice it.

Let's get a couple of things straight, right now.

1.  I am not Pixie.  She is a short hottie from Southampton.  I am a horrible old man in the desert.

2.  I never offend anyone, even unintentionally.