Principia Discordia

Over the entire 350 year course of the African slave trade, roughly 13.5 million people were taken out of Africa.

The International Labor Organization estimates that there are currently 21 million people living in slavery RIGHT NOW. TODAY.

Free The Slaves, the US affiliate of Anti Slavery International estimates it at around 27 million, and calls that conservative.

In related news, I hope everybody is wearing comfortable footwear.

I fear i must ask for sources, before i explode.
I could look it up myself, but i don't actually want to know this so you will have to forcefeed me.
leaving thia thread now, eye has begun twitching,.

Yeah, this is exactly one of the reasons I have such a hard time with THINGS. Or buying a new phone or computer. Fuck, even my food is almost certainly the product of agribusiness slavery or near-slavery.

On a positive note, my footwear is (probably) slave-free. To think that people give me shit for spending $300 on boots just so I can feel secure that they weren't made by slaves... it's worth every penny to avoid literally walking on misery with every step.

Quote from: :regret: on February 26, 2013, 12:19:40 PM
I fear i must ask for sources, before i explode.
I could look it up myself, but i don't actually want to know this so you will have to forcefeed me.
leaving thia thread now, eye has begun twitching,.

He gave sources in the OP.
https://www.freetheslaves.net/SSLPage.aspx
http://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_204399/lang--en/index.htm

I want to live above this sort of thing, but they don't make stilts that tall.  I want to own things made by employees.  I will pay extra for this moral soap.  Because it's all so fucking dirty, ECH.  I can't be GOOD, because I live in a culture in which you MUST, on some level, participate in evil. 

And the fucked up thing is that most people don't KNOW it's evil.  They don't see it because they CAN'T see it, because they have been trained from birth to look AROUND it.  I bet middle class and rich White Southerners were JUST LIKE THAT before the civil war.  Not the po'buckers, of course.  They were the overseers, etc, and knew exactly where the food on the table and the clothing on their backs came from.

And then one day, you can't fool yourself anymore.  Your nation is evil.  Your culture and society is evil.  And YOU (me, everyone) are covered in that evil, literally.

And there's

no

way

out

Does.t help at all that the poorer one is, the more one is forced to purchase slave goods.

Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on February 26, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
Does.t help at all that the poorer one is, the more one is forced to purchase slave goods.

Obviously, though if you're rich enough to not have to, you probably don't care.

And if you DID care, you're still just exempting yourself from a bad system without doing anything to fix it.  You may not be guilty of a sin of commission, but you're still guilty of a sin of omission.

reading the 'free the slaves' site for a little while now, and it appears they think there is certainly something we can do about it...

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
reading the 'free the slaves' site for a little while now, and it appears they think there is certainly something we can do about it...

Blocked (duh, who do I work for?), so please expost anything rational or achievable.

The disgusting part is, there is no fixing it. If 100% of the Western world abstained from slave-made goods, it would just mean a lower standard of living for all of them. The slaves would, of course, still be slaves (or worse, if there was no longer a market for what they made). We can buy things from slaves, but we can't share with them. The system doesn't work that way. If we give something up, it goes to the top. If we demand something more, it comes from the bottom. There's no downward path for wealth, comfort, or convenience. Even if we literally sent our money to the worst parts of the planet, it would be taxed and raided down to nothing. In fact that's exactly what happens when we try.

Quote from: V3X on February 26, 2013, 05:35:15 PM
The disgusting part is, there is no fixing it. If 100% of the Western world abstained from slave-made goods, it would just mean a lower standard of living for all of them. The slaves would, of course, still be slaves (or worse, if there was no longer a market for what they made). We can buy things from slaves, but we can't share with them. The system doesn't work that way. If we give something up, it goes to the top. If we demand something more, it comes from the bottom. There's no downward path for wealth, comfort, or convenience. Even if we literally sent our money to the worst parts of the planet, it would be taxed and raided down to nothing. In fact that's exactly what happens when we try.

Make shit here.  It worked before.  As for over there, I think accomodations will be reached in one form or another by sometime next Tuesday.  Some running around and screaming may be involved.

The master always fears the slave.  There's a reason for that.

The Ideal:

1.  I will never accept slavery in any form.

2.  I will not associate with those who profit from slavery.

3.  I will not benefit from, or allow others to benefit from, slavery.

4.  Slavers are for hanging.  If a poor man steals to live, how high must we build the gallows for someone who steals PEOPLE for GREED?

5.  Every person is the property of their own person, even those convicted of a crime (note that this does not remove the concept of jails).

That's the ideal, the goal.  The current reality is a little different.

1.  I tacitly accept slavery as the price of doing business, every day.

2.  Everyone I know profits from slavery, including myself.

3.  Everyone I know benefits from slavery, including myself.

4.  Big thieves hang little thieves.

5.  You are de facto property of someone else.  Each and every one of you.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 05:33:34 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
reading the 'free the slaves' site for a little while now, and it appears they think there is certainly something we can do about it...

Blocked (duh, who do I work for?), so please expost anything rational or achievable.

well.  they have a page called "Ending Slavery - the Plan"
in it, they say that the two biggest hurdles are  awareness, and resources. (i.e. talk about it and donate)
then they say to lobby govt. to act on rhetoric.
they say to insist on 'fair trade' products when possible.
they say to get to know your neighbors because there's a substantial amount of slavery in our suburbs.  they give red flags to look for.
they say that if you are a business owner or in charge of the supply chain at your place, you can clean up your part with some diligence.
they say you should investigate local businesses to look for slavery.
etc. etc.

and, apparently, the head of that foundation wrote a book on plans for eradicating slavery.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 05:45:02 PM
well.  they have a page called "Ending Slavery - the Plan"
in it, they say that the two biggest hurdles are  awareness, and resources. (i.e. talk about it and donate)

Useless, then.  Facebooktivism.

Quotethen they say to lobby govt. to act on rhetoric.
they say to insist on 'fair trade' products when possible.

And there's the kicker.  "Where possible".  That's fucking weasel words, right there.  There is a time and a place to compromise.  This isn't one of them.

:cluephone:

You do not change the world by gabbing and sending $20.

You do not change the world by glad-handing the subject and then walking away from it.

In fact, you do not change the world by doing anything you can walk away from without a fight.

FIRST, something is done.  THEN you spread the word that it's been done.

The Occupy people were, in most places, reasonable.  The result?  They learned and the police learned that large scale demonstrations are easily subverted and brought to an end.

Oakland was a little different.  They've got STONES out there.

agreed.  i think that if you wanted to be significantly and directly involved in addressing the problem, you would probably have to work for an organization like this.

however, they have some testimonials of some individuals who helped some other individuals out of a forced work situation here in the states, and what steps are necessary to do that.

if it really concerns you, and yet you believe that nothing. can. be. done.  then you're probably right.
i mean...  i'm probably not going to do anything either, so i'm certainly not on a high horse here. :/

Had they ALL acted like Oakland, something might have been accomplished.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 05:54:56 PM
however, they have some testimonials of some individuals who helped some other individuals out of a forced work situation here in the states, and what steps are necessary to do that.

Dealing with it HERE is easy.  It involves about 6 felony charges.  So I'm reasonably certain that any "action" that didn't end with "then I called the cops" is utter and complete horseshit.

Dealing with it outside of our borders is harder.

Also, I never said "do nothing".  I am saying that something MUST be done.  I just don't yet know WHAT.

But I know what it ISN'T.  It isn't Facebook or causes.com.  It isn't some attention-whorey, 99% bullshit website.  It isn't running out and screeching like a loon, thus inflicting emotional fatigue and apathy in everyone around you.

All that shit has been done, and it has all FAILED.  Trying it again is STUPID.

If we're worth a fuck as Discordians or even just people, we should be able to think of something that might actually have potential success.

NOTE:  Slavery was NECESSARY before the invention of the horse collar.  Since then it has not been necessary.  It has been desireable in the eyes of the already-rich, for the purpose of getting richer, by consuming the labor and the lives of the very poor.

THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE ROOT OF THE MATTER.

And once you have a root cause, you can begin to form something resembling an idea that might even lead to an actionable plan.

I wonder how much of a difference, or at least how much of an impression, could be made by a company, like say Discordicorp™, just showing up out of absolutely nowhere and volunteering the same (or a slightly larger) amount of money and support that an average village makes while subjected to slavery? And then bragging about it on Facebook (or whatever)?

PRESS RELEASE: DISCORDICORP™ PURCHASES 25 YOUNG, HEALTHY INDONESIAN SLAVES FOR THE BARGAIN PRICE OF $350 U.S.D. PER YEAR. NEITHER RESALE NOR PUBLIC BIDDING WILL NOT BE FORTHCOMING, HOWEVER, AS THESE PARTICULAR MODELS ARE SLATED FOR IMMEDIATE USE IN THE "NOT BEING SLAVES" INDUSTRY.

Huh.

Well, I'm not sure I ever heard an idea like that before, so that's something.

I can't tell if there's a faint whiff of colonialism somehow, or maybe I'm just feeling weird about essentially buying another human in the name of "ending slavery".

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 26, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
Huh.

Well, I'm not sure I ever heard an idea like that before, so that's something.

I can't tell if there's a faint whiff of colonialism somehow, or maybe I'm just feeling weird about essentially buying another human in the name of "ending slavery".

You create a market if you do that.

well, slavery isn't legal anywhere on the planet according to the FtS site, so you couldn't just go buy them, because they aren't legally owned.  it's just that they are put in, or coerced into a situation where they can't escape, and have to work for some shitbag...

so in order to do something like that, i guess you would have to go there, set up shop, and fairly compensate the people for their labor.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 26, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
Huh.

Well, I'm not sure I ever heard an idea like that before, so that's something.

I can't tell if there's a faint whiff of colonialism somehow, or maybe I'm just feeling weird about essentially buying another human in the name of "ending slavery".

It isn't about buying people, it's about preempting the power their current owners have over them. The language is of course offensive, but that's the point. Release something like that and people would be all "That's preposterous! There's no such thing as slavery these days!" And then, some of them might find out how wrong they are.

Like I said, it's a new idea to me, so I'm not going to reject it out of hand.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:15:29 PM
well, slavery isn't legal anywhere on the planet according to the FtS site, so you couldn't just go buy them, because they aren't legally owned.  it's just that they are put in, or coerced into a situation where they can't escape, and have to work for some shitbag...

so in order to do something like that, i guess you would have to go there, set up shop, and fairly compensate the people for their labor.

Sure. Rent a factory somewhere and employ 150 people for a penny a day each, except instead of T-shirts or Nikes, they'd be producing... uhh... nothing. In fact you could have a strict "come to work if you want, don't if you don't want" policy. And anyone who shows up to work gets to do whatever they want.

It all comes down to economics.

Back in the year dirt, before the horse collar, a horse could do about the same amount of work as 3 people without choking itself on its harness.  Problem:  Horses eat about 5 times as much as people do.  Conclusion:  People are the best draft animals under that technology.  That lasted about 8000 years.

The horse collar replaced the throat collar in Western Europe in about 920 AD (it had existed in China for 400 years at that point).  At that point, the horse could do the work of 2 oxen (which ate even more), or about 10-20 people.  At this point, slavery was no longer necessary for survival.

Slavery today exists only for greed.  This greed is driven by many levels of society.  You want cheap clothes.  Kathy Lee Gifford wants cheap labor, and thus a higher gross margin.  You want the same thing, because it increases the value of your 401K.

So, corporate greed + personal greed = misery for someone else.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:15:29 PM
well, slavery isn't legal anywhere on the planet according to the FtS site, so you couldn't just go buy them, because they aren't legally owned.  it's just that they are put in, or coerced into a situation where they can't escape, and have to work for some shitbag...

so in order to do something like that, i guess you would have to go there, set up shop, and fairly compensate the people for their labor.

De jure?  No, it isn't legal anywhere.  De facto?  Ask an Apple "employee" in China.

apple employees have it pretty good compared to the agriculture and mining slaves from what i'm reading.
they actually get paid, for one thing, afaik.
also, they aren't threatened with violence for leaving afaik.

as far as greed being the root cause of slavery, i would agree, but would comment that we aren't going to be able to get rid of that, however, it seems reasonable that we can still go far in reducing slavery, never the less... (legislation and enforcement being the vehicle)

Tangentially relevant:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2013/02/25/the_european_horse_meat_scandal_it_is_your_fault.html

QuoteMost of you (and almost all the Europeans) will have heard of the current scandal in European agribusiness relating to the misrepresentation of horse flesh as beef or other meat products, most often, but not exclusively, in ready meals and the like.

The potential motive for a meat supplier to do this is not hard to guess; it is a far cheaper product than beef, pork or lamb, and while it has a distinctive taste on its own, it is not so vastly different from beef that a blend of beef and horse would taste "unusual." Especially in something like a burger, which is going to be slathered in sauces anyway, let alone as part of a lasagna. I personally don't mind the thought of it and enjoy the taste. I'm very far from alone in this, but there are many cultures where horseflesh is taboo and  whether or not you are eating Black Beauty isn't really the point. The point is that you are eating a product that claims to be one thing (beef) and is in fact a very different one (horse). "Beef" is generally a protected description around the world, with various controls and standards and so on. While it isn't true to say that the trade in horseflesh is completely unregulated, it is safe to say that meat that isn't meant to be there in the first place, has not passed any standards, except - hopefully - that it is dead.

Proof of this, were it required, is provided by the recent discovery of the animal painkiller bute or Phenylbutazone in the human food chain. While I do not especially doubt the chief medical officer in the article cited when she says the risk is "low," bute is most definitely the sort of thing that will ruin your day (including by possibly bringing it to an unanticipated end) should you eat enough of it.

So we have the why, the how is something that unfolds daily like some awful origami, how is it your fault? Or more accurately, our fault?

This is satisfyingly straightforward: we asked for it.

No,  we did not, naturally, waltz into our local supermarket and ask to be lied to, fed dangerous chemicals and fraudulently sold food that may be against our deep personal and/or religious principles to consume.

But as consumers, we have consistently said that price is our single most important consideration when it comes to grocery shopping. It isn't only food of course: We expect pairs of jeans at impossibly cheap prices, most of us now balk at spending more than a few dollars or euros for socks for example. Lawnmowers, televisions and DVD players, garden furniture, power tools and camping equipment—we expect pricing that anyone with a calculator and half a brain can see does not make economic sense.

On the infrequent occasions when we think about it at all, we tell ourselves that this is due to economies of scale. Or we drink the Kool-Aid and buy into the press-puff-pieces about the latest brilliant advance in logistics efficiency. With very few exceptions, there are no such new advances, they all depend on slave—or at best, unethical—labor, and corn ers cutsomewhere along the line.

But nowhere is the contrast between the cost of production and the price we pay as blindingly obvious as in the case of food.

Do you really think it is possible to bring an individual burger to market for 20 cents (in euros) retail? Given how labor and capital-intensive farming is? Given the high costs associated with transporting food? Here is a provoking account of how the costs of that "20 cent" burger breakdown (or rather how they don't).

The answer of course is that it isn't. In the case of the food examples above, the large multiples squeeze their suppliers until their ribs crack and they in turn squeeze their suppliers (farmers and the like) until there simply is no more to give. Because if they don't, we consumers will go to a supermarket that will. There is a reason the likes of Tescos, ASDA, etc., spend so much money telling us that their milk is 2 cents cheaper than the competition: because that is how price-sensitive we are as consumers.

And like weeds in the cracks of a pavement, here the unscrupulous (or the desperate) suppliers flourish. I can close my eyes and hear how they would justify it— it is all meat, they love it in France and Slovenia, etc.


You buy your food so cheaply because, bluntly, it isn't what you think it is or it hasn't been produced with the sort of health safeguards you think are in place.

So your "beef" is pork or horse or dog or some damn thing. Wake up and smell the free-trade coffee (produced in horrific, slavery conditions but by a company whose name is registered in the Cayman Islands as "Free Trade Coffee," because you know, truth in advertising).

Of course you could always shop local, support your local grocery supplier or butcher. If you can find one anymore. You and I didn't want them, you see.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:27:45 PM
apple employees have it pretty good compared to the agriculture and mining slaves from what i'm reading.

From Wikipedia:

QuoteIn 2006, the Mail on Sunday reported on the working conditions that existed at factories in China where the contract manufacturers Foxconn and Inventec produced the iPod.[261] The article stated that one complex of factories that assembles the iPod (among other items) had over 200,000 workers that lived and worked in the factory, with employees regularly working more than 60 hours per week. The article also reported that workers made around $100 per month and were required to live on site, pay for rent, and food from the company, which generally amounted to a little over half of workers' earnings.

Ever heard the song "I owe my soul to the company store?"

QuoteApple immediately launched an investigation and worked with their manufacturers to ensure acceptable working conditions.[265] In 2007, Apple started yearly audits of all its suppliers regarding worker's rights, slowly raising standards and pruning suppliers that did not comply. Yearly progress reports have been published since 2008.[266] In 2010, workers in China planned to sue iPhone contractors over poisoning by a cleaner used to clean LCD screens. One worker claimed that he and his coworkers had not been informed of possible occupational illnesses.[267]

Sounds great, right?  OOPS.

QuoteIn 2011 Apple admitted that its suppliers' child labor practices in China had worsened.[270]

Also:

QuoteWorkers in factories producing Apple products have also been exposed to n-hexane, a neurotoxin that is a cheaper alternative than alcohol for cleaning the products.[271][272][273]

And here's the BEST part:

QuoteAfter a spate of suicides in a Foxconn facility in China making iPads and iPhones, albeit at a lower rate than in China as a whole,[268] workers were forced to sign a legally binding document guaranteeing that they would not kill themselves.[269]

Well, that settles it.  They aren't slaves.

Penal slavery is legal in most of the world.

In fact, penal slavery in the USA was the means by which slavery was allowed to continue.  It's no coincidence that penal slavery took off after "normal" slavery was made illegal, or that the race of most penal slaves in the 19th century was African-American (and gosh, just look at the jail and unemployment rates for blacks versus whites in the US...).

Also, I'm fairly sure in parts of the USA, slavery is still ongoing, and the police won't do anything.  The police chief is normally in his position due to friendship with and the support of local political actors.  Politics is a pursuit for people with money.  People with money own businesses.  Businesses profit more when they can underpay workers who, as an example, are in a country illegally, and when the police will be used to enforce discipline on the labourers.  Whatever we may wish the police were in theory, they are, in fact, enforcers for the existing political order, and that political order profits from slavery in many ways.

Roger, that is certainly some 16 tons shit there. i don't deny that it really needs improvement, but from what i'm reading, there's a shit ton of people that are in situations where they don't even get the disney bucks to buy from the company store, and they are told that if they talk, or run, they will be shot.  or their families will be hurt.  significantly more fucked up... 
also heard on NPR that the east coast china job market is changing lately, and that people are leaving the FOXCONN places in significant numbers and that there is competition for labor now.  don't know the truth of the current situation, but....

Cain, i was just hearing about the reeducation labor camps in china yesterday, and the efforts to stop them.  pretty crazy.  some lady interviewed saying how she petitioned the local party leader over some eminent domain issue, and he stuck her in there to work for years.

Slavery only counts if you list the MOST egregious cases, instead of some of the most frequent cases.

Yeah, leaving this thread now.

i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?
it's fucked up.  my point was: I knew there was de facto slavery in places like the Foxconn plants.  it's bad, and needs to change.  i also knew there was severe slavery where there is zero pay, no choice to leave, and direct violence.  I didn't, however, know the extent to which that stuff existed until i saw this thread.

ETA: or that there is significant honest-to-god shackles type slavery here in the states.

that's all i was saying, Roger.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM
Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

Shakespear's genius will never die.

Whether you are forced to stay because some asshole will whip, beat, or fire guns at you if you try to leave; or because the economic realities of leaving means you will be left homeless and destitute; you're a slave either way.

Quote from: Cain on February 26, 2013, 06:37:07 PM
Penal slavery is legal in most of the world.

In fact, penal slavery in the USA was the means by which slavery was allowed to continue.  It's no coincidence that penal slavery took off after "normal" slavery was made illegal, or that the race of most penal slaves in the 19th century was African-American (and gosh, just look at the jail and unemployment rates for blacks versus whites in the US...).

Also, I'm fairly sure in parts of the USA, slavery is still ongoing, and the police won't do anything.  The police chief is normally in his position due to friendship with and the support of local political actors.  Politics is a pursuit for people with money.  People with money own businesses.  Businesses profit more when they can underpay workers who, as an example, are in a country illegally, and when the police will be used to enforce discipline on the labourers.  Whatever we may wish the police were in theory, they are, in fact, enforcers for the existing political order, and that political order profits from slavery in many ways.

Penal slavery is still basically a thing and always has been, because it's incredibly profitable for the people who own the prisons. They just get like 10c an hour or some insanely low wage. There's also the way we exploit undocumented immigrants/field laborers (eg, paying them in produce*, calling immigration right before paying time, and the like).

*I only have anecdotal evidence for this, but believe me it happens.

Quote from: V3X on February 26, 2013, 07:02:35 PM
Whether you are forced to stay because some asshole will whip, beat, or fire guns at you if you try to leave; or because the economic realities of leaving means you will be left homeless and destitute; you're a slave either way.

Wage slavery. It's a thing.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

All I know is that I was trying to build up to a point about the economic underpinnings of slavery, and now we're talking about what constitutes "real slavery" or "worse slavery".

My point is smashed totally flat.  I'm not saying "FUCK YOUUUUUUU", I'm just saying there is no point in my continuing, because I can't fucking remember what I was going to say.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 26, 2013, 07:08:07 PM
It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

WHERE'S THE 'LIKE' BUTTON

Actually having a lot of complete and utter shit lowers my standard of living, from my point of view.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 07:12:42 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

All I know is that I was trying to build up to a point about the economic underpinnings of slavery, and now we're talking about what constitutes "real slavery" or "worse slavery".

My point is smashed totally flat.  I'm not saying "FUCK YOUUUUUUU", I'm just saying there is no point in my continuing, because I can't fucking remember what I was going to say.

oh. ok. well, lemme know what my line is next time, because i thought we were talking about V3X's idea (which i think there's gotta be some gold in there somewhere, btw)
sorry to ruin your buildup.  :sad:

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 26, 2013, 07:08:07 PM
It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

There's a shit-ton more marketing money/military interest towards that shit though, which essentially locks the status quo. "Haves" beget "Havers" and "have nots" get fucked unto the 7th generation.

Part of living in any "first world" county is accepting that everything you touch eat and drink was made possible by others far, far away. And fuck them, because they're far, far away. Have some AID.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:18:22 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 07:12:42 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

All I know is that I was trying to build up to a point about the economic underpinnings of slavery, and now we're talking about what constitutes "real slavery" or "worse slavery".

My point is smashed totally flat.  I'm not saying "FUCK YOUUUUUUU", I'm just saying there is no point in my continuing, because I can't fucking remember what I was going to say.

oh. ok. well, lemme know what my line is next time, because i thought we were talking about V3X's idea (which i think there's gotta be some gold in there somewhere, btw)
sorry to ruin your buildup.  :sad:

No worries.  Nobody read the fucking thing in the first place, apparently.  Satire sells.  What I had to say doesn't.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 26, 2013, 07:08:07 PM
It's a myth, or perhaps a dirty lie, that it would mean a lower standard of living for everyone. It would mostly mean less CRAP.

We really don't need 3000 square foot houses filled with loads of COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT in order to have a high standard of living.

This Exactly.

As individuals, we can buy Fair Trade, and try for stuff "Made in the USA" or made by some local artisans, but even if 23% of Americans did that, the 77% left would still be more than enough to support profitable slavery. Even then, when it comes to things like electronics, the consumer has no way of verifying that all of the components and raw materials were obtained without slavery (likely, at least some slaves were involved in the production of most electronics). So even using the Internet is supporting slavery in some form...

The only way that any of this changes is at the International Politics level. When we see sanctions on countries allowing forced labor that are equal to the sanctions on refining nuclear material... then MAYBE something will change.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

Quote from: :regret: on February 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

I think he was trying to differentiate between chattel slavery and employees with 0 rights and terrible working conditions. In an environment where there are very few job options, I don't see a functional difference.

Chattel slavery - If you try to quit, we'll kill/beat you.
FOXCONN - Sure you can quit, but there are no other jobs and you'll soon die of starvation.

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 27, 2013, 05:19:34 PM

Quote from: :regret: on February 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

I think he was trying to differentiate between chattel slavery and employees with 0 rights and terrible working conditions. In an environment where there are very few job options, I don't see a functional difference.

Chattel slavery - If you try to quit, we'll kill/beat you.
FOXCONN - Sure you can quit, but there are no other jobs and you'll soon die of starvation.

I see no difference at all, to be honest, let alone a functional one.

It's kind of like pulling the lever on the trapdoor or letting them jump with the noose necklace.

The result is the same but in one case you can say that it wasn't your fault, technically.

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 27, 2013, 05:19:34 PM

Quote from: :regret: on February 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

I think he was trying to differentiate between chattel slavery and employees with 0 rights and terrible working conditions. In an environment where there are very few job options, I don't see a functional difference.

Chattel slavery - If you try to quit, we'll kill/beat you.
FOXCONN - Sure you can quit, but there are no other jobs and you'll soon die of starvation.

yeah. that was pretty much it.  and, like i said, the reason i drew the distinction was in the context of V3X's suggestion that an activist group could go  buy them into freedom, while spinning it as buying them into further slavery without any pretense that it is anything other than what it was.  i just pointed out that they couldn't just be bought in that manner since they weren't legally owned, despite being, essentially, chattel slaves.  the idea would have to be tweaked to get the sought effect.  bringing apple employees into it seemed entirely off point, because they are, in fact, not forced to stay there.  there is no threat of violence.  they are not unpaid.
What i was not saying is that their situation is good, or even less bad.  i was simply saying that it's irrelevant to the hypothetical under consideration.

but apparently this crapped everything up, and i ruined something Roger was building up to because i was ...involved in an epenis contest? and now he's left the thread, and i feel terrible.

Makes me sad (http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/index.ssf/2012/12/halloween_decorations_carry_ha.html)

jesus.  that's incredible.
:sad:

I was making a sandwich at work tonight and I looked at the bag of lettuce - product of Mexico. O.o

Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on February 28, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
I was making a sandwich at work tonight and I looked at the bag of lettuce - product of Mexico. O.o

A lot of our winter produce comes from Mexico and Chile.

Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on February 28, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
Makes me sad (http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/index.ssf/2012/12/halloween_decorations_carry_ha.html)

That is really, really sad. And the thing is, how would our lives suffer if we didn't buy the piece of shit plastic gewgaws that is made by the people in labor camps? Or if we paid twenty times as much for work made by workers paid a decent living wage for their region? Not at all, really.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 06:28:09 AM

Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on February 28, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
I was making a sandwich at work tonight and I looked at the bag of lettuce - product of Mexico. O.o

A lot of our winter produce comes from Mexico and Chile.

We have local produce in our produce department. But the shit we use in our own kitchens comes from Mexico. It makes no sense. Well. I suppose cost wise it does. But it explains the excessive discoloration we've been having.

Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on February 28, 2013, 04:54:47 AM
I was making a sandwich at work tonight and I looked at the bag of lettuce - product of Mexico. O.o

LIES.

MEXICO makes nothing. He hasn't even come up with the second part of the joke yet and all you are just letting him get away with it.

Revolucion!

El 5/8'thshshs

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 06:30:35 AM

Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on February 28, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
Makes me sad (http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/index.ssf/2012/12/halloween_decorations_carry_ha.html)

That is really, really sad. And the thing is, how would our lives suffer if we didn't buy the piece of shit plastic gewgaws that is made by the people in labor camps? Or if we paid twenty times as much for work made by workers paid a decent living wage for their region? Not at all, really.

If most Americans had an obvious (ie no work needed on their part) option, I think they would choose to pay more for something else or not buy something with a label "WARNING: This product comes from slave labor". I don't think people intentionally support this shit to support their el cheapo Halloween prop addiction. However, many Americans are lazy and can't be arsed to read the fine print on anything important, let alone do research on shit plastic gewgaws (love that phrase).

As long as companies can sell slave made products without obvious warning stickers, as long as international governments use hand slapping and tsk tsk'ing instead of hardcore sanctions, then this shit will continue. FFS, most people don't check the ingredients of what they stick in their bodies, they sure as hell aren't gonna research McSpooky's Halloween Decorations.

It used to be that one could judge a nation on how they treated the weakest in their care. In the modern world economy, the philosophy must change to how the nation deals with the treatment of the weakest in the care of those they trade with.

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 27, 2013, 05:51:11 PM

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 27, 2013, 05:19:34 PM

Quote from: :regret: on February 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

I think he was trying to differentiate between chattel slavery and employees with 0 rights and terrible working conditions. In an environment where there are very few job options, I don't see a functional difference.

Chattel slavery - If you try to quit, we'll kill/beat you.
FOXCONN - Sure you can quit, but there are no other jobs and you'll soon die of starvation.

yeah. that was pretty much it.  and, like i said, the reason i drew the distinction was in the context of V3X's suggestion that an activist group could go  buy them into freedom, while spinning it as buying them into further slavery without any pretense that it is anything other than what it was.  i just pointed out that they couldn't just be bought in that manner since they weren't legally owned, despite being, essentially, chattel slaves.  the idea would have to be tweaked to get the sought effect.  bringing apple employees into it seemed entirely off point, because they are, in fact, not forced to stay there.  there is no threat of violence.  they are not unpaid.
What i was not saying is that their situation is good, or even less bad.  i was simply saying that it's irrelevant to the hypothetical under consideration.

but apparently this crapped everything up, and i ruined something Roger was building up to because i was ...involved in an epenis contest? and now he's left the thread, and i feel terrible.

The whole thesis fell apart as soon as it turned into semantic shittery.

My suggestion; before you hit "Post", ask yourself whether you are adding to the discussion or nitpicking semantics. If you find yourself engaging in semantic shittery, stop.

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 28, 2013, 11:16:04 AM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 06:30:35 AM

Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on February 28, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
Makes me sad (http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/index.ssf/2012/12/halloween_decorations_carry_ha.html)

That is really, really sad. And the thing is, how would our lives suffer if we didn't buy the piece of shit plastic gewgaws that is made by the people in labor camps? Or if we paid twenty times as much for work made by workers paid a decent living wage for their region? Not at all, really.

If most Americans had an obvious (ie no work needed on their part) option, I think they would choose to pay more for something else or not buy something with a label "WARNING: This product comes from slave labor". I don't think people intentionally support this shit to support their el cheapo Halloween prop addiction. However, many Americans are lazy and can't be arsed to read the fine print on anything important, let alone do research on shit plastic gewgaws (love that phrase).

As long as companies can sell slave made products without obvious warning stickers, as long as international governments use hand slapping and tsk tsk'ing instead of hardcore sanctions, then this shit will continue. FFS, most people don't check the ingredients of what they stick in their bodies, they sure as hell aren't gonna research McSpooky's Halloween Decorations.

It used to be that one could judge a nation on how they treated the weakest in their care. In the modern world economy, the philosophy must change to how the nation deals with the treatment of the weakest in the care of those they trade with.

I think it's unfair and also a bit piggish to say that "people are lazy" because they buy what's on the shelves. This same argument came up in the thread about ingredients labels, and I am going to just stop right here and call bullshit on it.

Reasonable people do not assume there is sugar in their ravioli. Reasonable people do not assume they need to jump through hoops to buy products that are not made by slaves.

Jaded, cynical people do. We may be jaded and cynical for very good reasons, but that doesn't make normal, reasonable people inferior or stupid or lazy because they DON'T walk around all the time assuming  that THE WORLD IS FUCKED AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FUCK US.

OK. So, now that I've gotten that off my chest, let's talk about your real point, which is that we cannot rely on the "Free Market" to protect us from slavery and exploitation, or even, for that matter, from being poisoned. As long as the "Free Market" exists, with its highest goal of MORE PROFITS, there is going to be a powerful, well-backed push toward manufacture and sale of the most cheaply-made consumer goods possible, with the highest profit margin possible. That push has led to nearly the complete eradication of high-quality consumer goods.

The consumer end isn't going to fix this, because that would be relying on the "Free Market" to fix itself. Not going to happen. Only political pressure will fix it, and political pressure will only come to bear if there is a generalized social shift away from free market capitalism.

Well, we know what we can't do. So, the question returns to what we CAN do.

We really only have one tool at our disposal, because we don't have money. We can communicate. We can try to shift social perception. We can post flyers, put stickers on products on store shelves (how about small, unobtrustive stickers that say "Proudly made with slave labor!"?) and talk to our friends and neighbors about how we support sanctions. We can talk about sanctions not against countries that supply slave labor conditions, but against companies that exploit them. We can try to associate the Free Market™ with slavery. Posters, stickers, taglines that say "FREE MARKET SLAVERY". We can try to make memes. Images of a child in shackles that say "Free me from the Free Market".

There ARE things we can do. People are talking about it, and that's a sign of hope. What won't work is throwing up our hands and saying "There's nothing I can do!"

I seriously think it's time to turn the worship of the Free Market™ against them. Turn it into a dirty word.

FREE SLAVE MARKET.

I'm digging on the Free Market Slavery idea.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 04:38:20 PM

I think it's unfair and also a bit piggish to say that "people are lazy" because they buy what's on the shelves. This same argument came up in the thread about ingredients labels, and I am going to just stop right here and call bullshit on it.

Reasonable people do not assume there is sugar in their ravioli. Reasonable people do not assume they need to jump through hoops to buy products that are not made by slaves.

Jaded, cynical people do. We may be jaded and cynical for very good reasons, but that doesn't make normal, reasonable people inferior or stupid or lazy because they DON'T walk around all the time assuming  that THE WORLD IS FUCKED AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FUCK US.

I'm not sure there are as many reasonable people as you think.

My experience has been (and this is strictly anecdotal) that in both contexts, when people ARE informed about the poison they're eating or the slavery they're supporting, 90% of the responses are along the lines of "yeah, well, what can you do? I mean, I really LIKE these jeans!"

Fuck people. Most of them are miserable shits who would probably whip the slaves themselves for some free merch.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 04:23:07 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 27, 2013, 05:51:11 PM

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 27, 2013, 05:19:34 PM

Quote from: :regret: on February 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 26, 2013, 06:59:24 PM

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
i'm not disagreeing with you...  :?

Then please explain to me what the last 3-4 posts we each made WERE?  I mean, you could start with "Apple employees have it pretty good" in response to my using them as an example, only to later state that they didn't.

Because from where I'm sitting, it LOOKS like:  "Roger makes a post.  Post must be undermined, because of internet penis.  Roger is now driven from thread out of sheer annoyance.  Internet penis validated."

Roger exiting stage left, pursued by a bear.

sure.  V3X was talking about purchasing slaves to set them free, and i was saying that they aren't legally owned. it's just de facto slavery because they aren't able to escape.
you then said "yeah, but they're de facto slaves! look at apple employees"
my response was meant to say, "yes. they are de facto slaves.  but i was talking about the people that are physically unable to escape without threat of violence on them.  the apple employees aren't in that boat."

i'm not arguing that they are being fairly treated, however. just that they don't have a gun to their head.

perhaps i'm being a schmuck and bolstering my ePenis.  i dunno.
i'll leave you alone now, if you want.

I may be wayyyy off here but what i see happening is a misunderstanding of an seemingly unimportant detail.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those pretty twentysomethings in the apple store.
Some people when they talk about apple employees are talking about those actually producing apple products in true slavery conditions.

I think he was trying to differentiate between chattel slavery and employees with 0 rights and terrible working conditions. In an environment where there are very few job options, I don't see a functional difference.

Chattel slavery - If you try to quit, we'll kill/beat you.
FOXCONN - Sure you can quit, but there are no other jobs and you'll soon die of starvation.

yeah. that was pretty much it.  and, like i said, the reason i drew the distinction was in the context of V3X's suggestion that an activist group could go  buy them into freedom, while spinning it as buying them into further slavery without any pretense that it is anything other than what it was.  i just pointed out that they couldn't just be bought in that manner since they weren't legally owned, despite being, essentially, chattel slaves.  the idea would have to be tweaked to get the sought effect.  bringing apple employees into it seemed entirely off point, because they are, in fact, not forced to stay there.  there is no threat of violence.  they are not unpaid.
What i was not saying is that their situation is good, or even less bad.  i was simply saying that it's irrelevant to the hypothetical under consideration.

but apparently this crapped everything up, and i ruined something Roger was building up to because i was ...involved in an epenis contest? and now he's left the thread, and i feel terrible.

The whole thesis fell apart as soon as it turned into semantic shittery.

My suggestion; before you hit "Post", ask yourself whether you are adding to the discussion or nitpicking semantics. If you find yourself engaging in semantic shittery, stop.

Thanks.

It was a good thought I was having.

I blame myself.

I should know better.  When a serious thread gets silly, with all manner of unworkable and/or "ironic" ideas that are then taken seriously enough to become the conversation, I should know enough to walk away, and maybe write the idea down for another time.  Likewise, when someone comes along using semantics as a means of stalling your idea, NOTHING IS GOING TO HELP.  The thread is fucking dead.  If you had an idea, write it down and wait a month.

What are the odds that we could actually make contact with some of these people?

Do FOXCONN workers have names and addresses, or maybe even email. I think physical mail is more likely, and harder for the government/company to censor.

Reaching actual prison labor is, of course, extremely unlikely.

that would be interesting to hear directly from them.
interestingly, when i started googling to find out how to contact them, much of the results are articles discussing how Foxconn has halted hiring of employees as part of its move to replace all its workers with robots.
so, i guess we can stop worrying about slavery there soon!
:lol:
.
.
.
:horrormirth:

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 28, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
I'm digging on the Free Market Slavery idea.

I think that one has legs, too.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 07:37:07 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 28, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
I'm digging on the Free Market Slavery idea.

I think that one has legs, too.

And I know JUST where to use it.   :lulz:

HFT, here I come.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 28, 2013, 07:38:17 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 07:37:07 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on February 28, 2013, 05:11:32 PM
I'm digging on the Free Market Slavery idea.

I think that one has legs, too.

And I know JUST where to use it.   :lulz:

HFT, here I come.

Perfect!  :lulz:

I have a great visual in my head which, sadly, I lack the technical skills to make myself: a smartphone (can't be Apple, everyone already knows about Apple and it gives too many people an easy excuse) with an image of a kid at a workbench, and in the search box the words "free market slavery"

Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 28, 2013, 07:35:09 PM
that would be interesting to hear directly from them.
interestingly, when i started googling to find out how to contact them, much of the results are articles discussing how Foxconn has halted hiring of employees as part of its move to replace all its workers with robots.
so, i guess we can stop worrying about slavery there soon!
:lol:
.
.
.
:horrormirth:

"Funny" story... There is a racist (islamophobic) local newspaper that is found in about half of the Chinese buffets in my town. I had a conversation with the guy behind the counter about it, and he argued that most of the things you read about China in American newspapers isn't actually true. Slave labor camps, the government killing people and sending their families the bill for the bullet... all that is just made up by the American propaganda machine.

So, nothing to worry about, everybody. Everything is fine. I heard it from a very reliable source!  :p

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 04:38:20 PM

Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 28, 2013, 11:16:04 AM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 28, 2013, 06:30:35 AM

Quote from: Mome Papess Trivial on February 28, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
Makes me sad (http://www.oregonlive.com/happy-valley/index.ssf/2012/12/halloween_decorations_carry_ha.html)

That is really, really sad. And the thing is, how would our lives suffer if we didn't buy the piece of shit plastic gewgaws that is made by the people in labor camps? Or if we paid twenty times as much for work made by workers paid a decent living wage for their region? Not at all, really.

If most Americans had an obvious (ie no work needed on their part) option, I think they would choose to pay more for something else or not buy something with a label "WARNING: This product comes from slave labor". I don't think people intentionally support this shit to support their el cheapo Halloween prop addiction. However, many Americans are lazy and can't be arsed to read the fine print on anything important, let alone do research on shit plastic gewgaws (love that phrase).

As long as companies can sell slave made products without obvious warning stickers, as long as international governments use hand slapping and tsk tsk'ing instead of hardcore sanctions, then this shit will continue. FFS, most people don't check the ingredients of what they stick in their bodies, they sure as hell aren't gonna research McSpooky's Halloween Decorations.

It used to be that one could judge a nation on how they treated the weakest in their care. In the modern world economy, the philosophy must change to how the nation deals with the treatment of the weakest in the care of those they trade with.

I think it's unfair and also a bit piggish to say that "people are lazy" because they buy what's on the shelves. This same argument came up in the thread about ingredients labels, and I am going to just stop right here and call bullshit on it.

Reasonable people do not assume there is sugar in their ravioli. Reasonable people do not assume they need to jump through hoops to buy products that are not made by slaves.

Jaded, cynical people do. We may be jaded and cynical for very good reasons, but that doesn't make normal, reasonable people inferior or stupid or lazy because they DON'T walk around all the time assuming  that THE WORLD IS FUCKED AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FUCK US.

I dunno, maybe I'm just too jaded and cynical  :lulz:

But, your right, in all honesty, I have no idea how even a cunning, jaded, paranoid consumer could research every product they buy to verify it wasn't made from slave labor... I would imagine that there are many products where even the people who focus on this don't know have components that are products of slave labor. I shouldn't have called it laziness as much as an impossible task given the currently available information, assuming that the consumer would even take the time to research it if the information were available.

Quote

OK. So, now that I've gotten that off my chest, let's talk about your real point, which is that we cannot rely on the "Free Market" to protect us from slavery and exploitation, or even, for that matter, from being poisoned. As long as the "Free Market" exists, with its highest goal of MORE PROFITS, there is going to be a powerful, well-backed push toward manufacture and sale of the most cheaply-made consumer goods possible, with the highest profit margin possible. That push has led to nearly the complete eradication of high-quality consumer goods.

The consumer end isn't going to fix this, because that would be relying on the "Free Market" to fix itself. Not going to happen. Only political pressure will fix it, and political pressure will only come to bear if there is a generalized social shift away from free market capitalism.

Exactly, and I like thata you say "Free Market" as opposed to Capitalism. Capitalism, in and of itself, isn't necessarily evil... the implementation of it, in the US and moreso in countries with 0 oversight, is the real problem.

Quote
Well, we know what we can't do. So, the question returns to what we CAN do.

We really only have one tool at our disposal, because we don't have money. We can communicate. We can try to shift social perception. We can post flyers, put stickers on products on store shelves (how about small, unobtrustive stickers that say "Proudly made with slave labor!"?) and talk to our friends and neighbors about how we support sanctions. We can talk about sanctions not against countries that supply slave labor conditions, but against companies that exploit them. We can try to associate the Free Market™ with slavery. Posters, stickers, taglines that say "FREE MARKET SLAVERY". We can try to make memes. Images of a child in shackles that say "Free me from the Free Market".

There ARE things we can do. People are talking about it, and that's a sign of hope. What won't work is throwing up our hands and saying "There's nothing I can do!"

Excellent points!

To continue the thought above on Capitalism... there is nothing inherent in the private ownership of capital goods and the means of production that eschews a philosophy of personal and social responsibility. That is, there could be a successful free market, if the society implementing it had an expectation of responsibility along with the ownership. Its the concept of corporations that MUST produce the greatest profit at any expense, that is our failure... and that is a philosophical failure, not necessarily an economic one.

I really like the idea of stickers... I also think it could go further. Examples:

http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/seafoodwatch.aspx (http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/seafoodwatch.aspx)

http://www.free2work.org/ (http://www.free2work.org/)

If there were a simple and useful way for consumers to determine the human cost of products, I think many people would use it. I'm imagining a phone app where you shoot a barcode, which returns information from a database on what is known about the product and how its created. Sure, some products aren't going to be identified correctly in the beginning, but as the system grew, as more investigations happened... even as more companies complied with audits... there would be an easy way for consumers to get a rating on the product they're thinking of buying.

It wouldn't be perfect, but it coculd at least help inform the public about what is known or unknown about what they're thinking of purchasing.

I haven't given it much thought, it just kinda popped into my head when I read your post.

Good Job, Nigel   :lulz:

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that capitalism isn't inherently bad, or at least on the macro level like H&M, Levi, Wal Mart, et al. Capitalism at the micro (local/regional) level does require that business owners not treat their employees like shit because employees have the actual ability to leave them high and dry, and it's easier to trace the supply chain/have an ethic supply chain, but gigantic corporations like Apple and friends have to bow to the market in certain ways that smaller businesses can't and when workers start demanding humane treatment/a living wage, well, they can just pick up and leave.
Or at least that's what I would argue.

I would be all over the Free Market Slavery thing. I'm going to be doing some shopping soon, and if I can't get away from slave goods, I may as well use their ubiquity to this thing's advantage.

Capitalism is not inherently bad, it's a system. Resource/status/power hungry primates implementing capitalism, however? I can't see it ending up any other way.

Our standard of living has, historically, always depended utterly on slavery. Capitalism dresses it up to look like not-slavery but it's essentially the same. What the primates running the show haven't realised is that, largely due to technological advances, it's probably possible nowadays to keep our slaves reasonably healthy and allow them a good quality of life.

This has already happened to the serf classes but we're still clinging to the old style of slave husbandry. We're just doing it more efficiently now and tarting it up a bit so we can pretend it's not slavery.

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 06:38:52 PM
Our standard of living has, historically, always depended utterly on slavery.

Actually, I addressed this.  It got buried, though.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 06:40:14 PM

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 06:38:52 PM
Our standard of living has, historically, always depended utterly on slavery.

Actually, I addressed this.  It got buried, though.

I don't doubt it. TBH I've only been skimming this thread, killing time, between LOBB installments. Whenever slavery gets mentioned I'm kinda cynical. Are people really that naive that whenever a fundamental part of our economy is highlighted through some outrage-piece on apple or whatever, they respond by tweeting their discontent, using an iPhone that they were complaining about the price of yesterday?

This conversation always makes me kinda facepalmy. I get very devils advocate in it. "I wish they'd stop wasting all this money on pr trying to convince us it's not slavery, my iPhone would be half the price if they dropped the bullshit!"

If I get a disgusted look from the guy in the Nike trainers, I feel depressingly smug.

I really like the idea of little stickers that say "proudly made with slave labor" or simply "made by slaves"  They should be fairly unobtrusive and look like they are promoting a sale or something similar so that they are not immediately noticed and removed by employees.

Quote from: Pergamos on March 01, 2013, 07:41:37 PM
I really like the idea of little stickers that say "proudly made with slave labor" or simply "made by slaves"  They should be fairly unobtrusive and look like they are promoting a sale or something similar so that they are not immediately noticed and removed by employees.

Hmmm.  I could do something with that.

I'm really liking these ideas.

Quote from: Juana Go? on March 01, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that capitalism isn't inherently bad, or at least on the macro level like H&M, Levi, Wal Mart, et al. Capitalism at the micro (local/regional) level does require that business owners not treat their employees like shit because employees have the actual ability to leave them high and dry, and it's easier to trace the supply chain/have an ethic supply chain, but gigantic corporations like Apple and friends have to bow to the market in certain ways that smaller businesses can't and when workers start demanding humane treatment/a living wage, well, they can just pick up and leave.
Or at least that's what I would argue.

I would be all over the Free Market Slavery thing. I'm going to be doing some shopping soon, and if I can't get away from slave goods, I may as well use their ubiquity to this thing's advantage.

Sounds like you might be conflating capitalism with "Free Market capitalism", AKA corporatism? Noting wrong with capitalism (well... there are arguments to be made about it being a self-limiting economic system, but that's for later) but unfettered capitalism leads inevitably to consolidation and tyranny. It's built into the system.

I love all the brainstorming going on in this thread... really good ideas surfacing! I really think we can develop these into something that will make an impact, if only in shifting public perception away from "FREE MARKET IS GOOOOOOOD".

For the stickers, how do the sticker appliers know something is made with slave labor?  Do we look for "made in China" or particular products?  Or something else?

If you look upthread, there's a "truism" that almost everything a conglomorate corporation produces is in some way connected with slave labor.  Which should mean everything not made by a small, local company is fair game.

Quote from: Pergamos on March 01, 2013, 08:26:28 PM
For the stickers, how do the sticker appliers know something is made with slave labor?  Do we look for "made in China" or particular products?  Or something else?

LOL - pick an item off the shelf. If it's not in a plain brown wrapper, feel safe to assume.

I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Do you guys have an equivalent of "Pound Shops"? maybe "Dollar Stores" or something similar? Reason I ask is because our ones are full of shit made by bangladeshi preschoolers who are were too ugly to get a foot on the child-prostitute career ladder.

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 08:38:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Do you guys have an equivalent of "Pound Shops"? maybe "Dollar Stores" or something similar? Reason I ask is because our ones are full of shit made by bangladeshi preschoolers who are were too ugly to get a foot on the child-prostitute career ladder.

We certainly do.

They're chain stores here.

Perhaps some new signage out front...

Cotton is a good bet.

Uzbekistan uses child slave labour (under the guise of "national cultural traditions"), and its cotton harvest goes pretty far.

Quote from: Cain on March 01, 2013, 08:44:29 PM
Cotton is a good bet.

Uzbekistan uses child slave labour (under the guise of "national cultural traditions"), and its cotton harvest goes pretty far.

That's some high-quality Doublespeak, that is.

Oh yes.

Given Uzbekistan has never existed historically, and it's leader is a Communist, the ironies just pile on top of each other.

Also, mines in central Africa are typically used by slave labour, or as close to as to not be able to tell the difference.  Blood diamonds are infamous, but colban and other precious minerals fall lower on the radar.

Pretty much everything in the Apple Store is fair game.

"Sourced from 100% non-violent slave factories: there is no reason to beat someone just for being a slave".

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 01, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Pretty much everything in the Apple Store is fair game.

I would avoid Apple, actually, because what's happened as a result of Apple's relative transparency is that a vast swathe of the population is under the impression that the conditions of Apple's manufacture are somehow unusual or worse than every other company, and that gives people who don't use Apple products an easy out.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 01, 2013, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 01, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Pretty much everything in the Apple Store is fair game.

I would avoid Apple, actually, because what's happened as a result of Apple's relative transparency is that a vast swathe of the population is under the impression that the conditions of Apple's manufacture are somehow unusual or worse than every other company, and that gives people who don't use Apple products an easy out.

Yep.  If it's electonic, it's probably filthy.

Apple fessed up.  Doesn't mean everyone else is clean.

On the other hand, I am unimpressed with how Apple dealt with the problem.

"This product has not been tested on slaves: just made by them".

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 09:00:08 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 01, 2013, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 01, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Pretty much everything in the Apple Store is fair game.

I would avoid Apple, actually, because what's happened as a result of Apple's relative transparency is that a vast swathe of the population is under the impression that the conditions of Apple's manufacture are somehow unusual or worse than every other company, and that gives people who don't use Apple products an easy out.

Yep.  If it's electonic, it's probably filthy.

Apple fessed up.  Doesn't mean everyone else is clean.

On the other hand, I am unimpressed with how Apple dealt with the problem.

Apple does the least possible; meanwhile, all the other electronics (and everything else) companies heave a sigh of relief that they don't have to do anything at all.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 01, 2013, 09:02:15 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 09:00:08 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 01, 2013, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 01, 2013, 08:52:50 PM
Pretty much everything in the Apple Store is fair game.

I would avoid Apple, actually, because what's happened as a result of Apple's relative transparency is that a vast swathe of the population is under the impression that the conditions of Apple's manufacture are somehow unusual or worse than every other company, and that gives people who don't use Apple products an easy out.

Yep.  If it's electonic, it's probably filthy.

Apple fessed up.  Doesn't mean everyone else is clean.

On the other hand, I am unimpressed with how Apple dealt with the problem.

Apple does the least possible; meanwhile, all the other electronics (and everything else) companies heave a sigh of relief that they don't have to do anything at all.

Very, very true.

Cain: great slogans!

Thanks.  I feel they could do with some fine-tuning, but you get the general idea: take an ethical campaign slogan, but use it in such a way that it does not make slavery itself seem like an ethical issue.

"Now made with 15% less child labor"

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 08:38:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Do you guys have an equivalent of "Pound Shops"? maybe "Dollar Stores" or something similar? Reason I ask is because our ones are full of shit made by bangladeshi preschoolers who are were too ugly to get a foot on the child-prostitute career ladder.

"Dollar Tree's" stock price has quadrupled in the last five years. Apparently dollar stores where the only retail sector whose sales went up durian the recession.

 :lulz: I love the slogans.

"Made by HAPPY slaves!"

"Made in 87% starvation-free factories"

"I worked hard for my bowl of rice today!"

Comic sans against standard starving smiling child photo op.

"Ever wonder where all the sugar comes from?"

Obnoxious font against collage of the multitude of places child labour is used. Maybe a map with smiley faces over various locales in the world. You may start to notice some kind of pattern.

"Free Range Children Proudly Made this in Bangladesh"

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on March 01, 2013, 09:56:24 PM

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 08:38:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Do you guys have an equivalent of "Pound Shops"? maybe "Dollar Stores" or something similar? Reason I ask is because our ones are full of shit made by bangladeshi preschoolers who are were too ugly to get a foot on the child-prostitute career ladder.

"Dollar Tree's" stock price has quadrupled in the last five years. Apparently dollar stores where the only retail sector whose sales went up durian the recession.

Dollar stores are the biggest thing ever in the US. They're going to overtake WalMart. Seguin seems to have one about every 4-6 blocks.
Every time a supermarket folds, they put in a dollar store. OBOY! CHEAP SHIT FROM CHINA, A FREEZER SECTION WITH FRIED CHEESE AND NO VEGGIES, AND BUD LIGHT!!!!! GOT A PROBLEM, COMMIE?

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 03:47:23 AM

Quote from: Golden Applesauce on March 01, 2013, 09:56:24 PM

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 01, 2013, 08:38:47 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 01, 2013, 08:34:41 PM
I'm actually going to pick a couple of products and dig a bit.

Do you guys have an equivalent of "Pound Shops"? maybe "Dollar Stores" or something similar? Reason I ask is because our ones are full of shit made by bangladeshi preschoolers who are were too ugly to get a foot on the child-prostitute career ladder.

"Dollar Tree's" stock price has quadrupled in the last five years. Apparently dollar stores where the only retail sector whose sales went up durian the recession.

Dollar stores are the biggest thing ever in the US. They're going to overtake WalMart. Seguin seems to have one about every 4-6 blocks.
Every time a supermarket folds, they put in a dollar store. OBOY! CHEAP SHIT FROM CHINA, A FREEZER SECTION WITH FRIED CHEESE AND NO VEGGIES, AND BUD LIGHT!!!!! GOT A PROBLEM, COMMIE?

My favorite part of the dollar store is the dusty cans of expired Chef Boyardee ravioli next to the bottles of leaky bleach. Totally sets off the plastic tiki torches and racks of 'scenes from the bible' stickers.

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 03:07:05 AM
"Free Range Children Proudly Made this in Bangladesh"

FREE RANGE CHILDREN

has fucking legs.

MADE BY FREE-RANGE WORKERS

PROUDLY FREE-RANGE MADE

OUR CHILD WORKERS ARE FREE-RANGE

MADE IN A FREE-RANGE ESTABLISHMENT

I think my favorite is

MADE BY FREE-RANGE CHILDREN

inorote. If some one doesn't beat me to it I'll make some stickers after finals.

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 04:32:42 PM
inorote. If some one doesn't beat me to it I'll make some stickers after finals.

Even if someone does beat you to it you should.

But are the children GRASS FED?

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
But are the children GRASS FED?

:lulz:

So I was at Whole Foods, and they have these hoodies there that are about $25, called something like "Fabric of Change". So I look at the tag, and they're made in China. :horrormirth:

I should really look them up, because maybe the "change" is that it's a worker-owned living-wage shop, or something. But I kind of doubt it. I think it was recycled fabric or some such crap.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:24:54 PM

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
But are the children GRASS FED?

:lulz:

that gives an while new angle
villianis them for not using grass feed children

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 09:39:27 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:24:54 PM

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
But are the children GRASS FED?

:lulz:

that gives an while new angle
villianis them for not using grass feed children

Why, I bet most companies use children that are GRAIN-FED. And it's probably not even organic grain!

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 09:39:27 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:24:54 PM

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
But are the children GRASS FED?

:lulz:

that gives an while new angle
villianis them for not using grass feed children

Why, I bet most companies use children that are GRAIN-FED. And it's probably not even organic grain!

butvat least they aren't using steroids or growth hormones or antibiotics.

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 10:05:09 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:58:30 PM

Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 02, 2013, 09:39:27 PM

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:24:54 PM

Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on March 02, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
But are the children GRASS FED?

:lulz:

that gives an while new angle
villianis them for not using grass feed children

Why, I bet most companies use children that are GRAIN-FED. And it's probably not even organic grain!

butvat least they aren't using steroids or growth hormones or antibiotics.

No; when one gets sick they just quarantine it until it dies, and then throw it into the composter.

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 02, 2013, 09:26:46 PM
So I was at Whole Foods, and they have these hoodies there that are about $25, called something like "Fabric of Change". So I look at the tag, and they're made in China. :horrormirth:

I should really look them up, because maybe the "change" is that it's a worker-owned living-wage shop, or something. But I kind of doubt it. I think it was recycled fabric or some such crap.

Change that you can believe in! That used to be made in Taiwan

Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on March 01, 2013, 08:09:01 PM

Quote from: Juana Go? on March 01, 2013, 04:56:33 PM
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that capitalism isn't inherently bad, or at least on the macro level like H&M, Levi, Wal Mart, et al. Capitalism at the micro (local/regional) level does require that business owners not treat their employees like shit because employees have the actual ability to leave them high and dry, and it's easier to trace the supply chain/have an ethic supply chain, but gigantic corporations like Apple and friends have to bow to the market in certain ways that smaller businesses can't and when workers start demanding humane treatment/a living wage, well, they can just pick up and leave.
Or at least that's what I would argue.

I would be all over the Free Market Slavery thing. I'm going to be doing some shopping soon, and if I can't get away from slave goods, I may as well use their ubiquity to this thing's advantage.

Sounds like you might be conflating capitalism with "Free Market capitalism", AKA corporatism? Noting wrong with capitalism (well... there are arguments to be made about it being a self-limiting economic system, but that's for later) but unfettered capitalism leads inevitably to consolidation and tyranny. It's built into the system.

Possibly? I'll do some reading.


"Made by children 5-12"

WE ARE AN ETHICAL COMPANY OUR CHILDREN ARE NEVER KEPT IN BATTERY CAGES, NOR THEIR MOTHERS IN GESTATION CRATES

CHILD-LABOR FREE*


*Legal age of maturity may vary.

"Made by kids, for kids!"

EITHER


OR


OR EVEN


BETTER YET

It took me a while to come up with one, but:

"Made by children, NATURALLY"

"Buying this shirt, helps make sure that little Samreen can feed her baby brother"
(http://www.zoriah.net/.a/6a00e55188bf7a883401156f4748d7970c-800wi)

That lazy little bastard should get his own job, instead of leeching off his sister like some kind of parasite.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 05, 2013, 06:04:06 PM
It took me a while to come up with one, but:

"Made by children, NATURALLY HOLISTICALLY"

FTFY.

Or even

Made by children, HOLISTICALLY
NOW WITH HERBS!

Can somebody format these into a Scribd file that prints on mailing label stickers?
I might be going to WalMart later in the week.  :lulz:

Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on March 05, 2013, 05:30:56 PM
"Made by kids, for kids!"

Catchy!  :horrormirth:

Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 05, 2013, 06:04:06 PM
It took me a while to come up with one, but:

"Made by children, NATURALLY"

Oh wow

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 05, 2013, 06:30:01 PM
"Buying this shirt, helps make sure that little Samreen can feed her baby brother"
(http://www.zoriah.net/.a/6a00e55188bf7a883401156f4748d7970c-800wi)

and
:horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: :horrormirth: