http://www.today.com/moms/spanking-linked-later-aggression-among-kids-8C11431781
"There's no point spanking a 5 year old, just like there's no point reasoning with a 2 year old."
Well, the first part seems to be right, according to the study.
The second part seems to be right because neither of my kids stuck a fork in an electrical outlet.
I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. :lol: So yeah, makes sense.
On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. :eek:
(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/8947/j6va.jpg)
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on October 21, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. :lol: So yeah, makes sense.
On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. :eek:
It's msnbc's site, so yeah, it's gonna be stuffed full. Hence the crappy load times.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 21, 2013, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on October 21, 2013, 10:33:29 PM
I can remember being about five and being furious when anybody had the nerve to smack my ass. And repeating the offense just to PISS THEM OFF. :lol: So yeah, makes sense.
On a totally unrelated note, Ghostery found 60 trackers on that site. :eek:
It's msnbc's site, so yeah, it's gonna be stuffed full. Hence the crappy load times.
Yeah, but 60 is IMPRESSIVE.
HuffPo takes forever to load and there's usually only about 13 on that one.
I saw that study just a few minutes ago!
I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 21, 2013, 11:51:34 PM
I saw that study just a few minutes ago!
I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.
It's common in South America, and I heard that it's common in Asia.
Maybe hurting defenseless people when under stress is some sort of human universal? I understand child rearing can be frustrating.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 21, 2013, 11:51:34 PM
I saw that study just a few minutes ago!
I wonder sometimes where the tradition of spanking came from, and whether it's related to the American national obsession with punishment.
It's common in South America, and I heard that it's common in Asia.
Maybe hurting defenseless people when under stress is some sort of human universal? I understand child rearing can be frustrating.
It's frustrating, but theoretically the point of spanking is to show them repercussions for their own behavior, not to vent. Not that there aren't awful people who use it that way.
I don't think it's a human universal. Most American indians didn't spank until the post-colonial era. It goes very against traditional childrearing values.
Hmmmm
http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-spanking-files-2/history-of-spanking
I don't know how accurate that is. By "I don't know" I mean that I don't know, not that I'm questioning its accuracy.
It does look like it's illegal in quite a few countries, but I have no idea how that reflects historic attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_corporal_punishment
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 22, 2013, 12:41:59 AM
I don't think it's a human universal. Most American indians didn't spank until the post-colonial era. It goes very against traditional childrearing values.
Hmmmm
http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-spanking-files-2/history-of-spanking
I don't know how accurate that is. By "I don't know" I mean that I don't know, not that I'm questioning its accuracy.
It does look like it's illegal in quite a few countries, but I have no idea how that reflects historic attitudes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_corporal_punishment
That's very interesting. I can't believe I didn't make that connection before, it makes too much sense:
Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.
The part about christians using it as a form of absolution is also very interesting, because we can compare christians with non-christians to see if there is a difference.
ETA: The law in my quaint little South American Soy Republic is that corporal punishment is forbidden at school, but you can do whatever you want to your children at home.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.
Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.
Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?
You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".
Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.
Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?
You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".
Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.
I've raised two, and I can state that you can't reason with a toddler about light sockets and other immediate hazards.
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them. It is also important to distinguish between "spanking" and "beating the shit out of the kid". The cited article backs me up on this, and on the next paragraph:
But by 4-5 they can in fact listen, and can be instructed without this sort of nonsense. And the upside is that they are in the habit, by that point, of paying attention. So spanking past age 4-5 IS in fact useless, and even counter-productive.
Lastly, the only way to teach compassion, unfortunately, is pain and/or distress. Now, I have NOT read any research on this, but in my experience with other parents, the ones that say "never spank at any age" always seem to have horrible sociopaths for teenagers. Again, anecdotes only, here, and you and I both know anecdotes are not evidence.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 02:07:02 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 03:50:01 AM
Quote from: Lord Cataplanga on October 22, 2013, 12:51:56 AM
Corporal punishment used to be used as punishment for minor crimes. The punishment would be public, of course, for maximum humilliation. Now we have all those pesky laws that forbid cruel and unusual punishments, so they don't do that to adults anymore. But children aren't really people in the eyes of some adults, so of course, when dealing with children, people revert to those more primitive practices.
Just out of idle curiosity, how many kids do you have?
You guessed correctly, I have zero.
Iḿ aware there is probably a good reason, or at least a clever rationalization, that can justify the behaviuor which I unfairly described as a "primitive practice".
Problem is the children themselves sometimes don't share those rationalizations. They don't understand them, or sometimes they understand but don't agree with them. When that happens, no amount of spanking is going to change a child's mind, so there's frustration all around.
I've raised two, and I can state that you can't reason with a toddler about light sockets and other immediate hazards.
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them. It is also important to distinguish between "spanking" and "beating the shit out of the kid". The cited article backs me up on this, and on the next paragraph:
But by 4-5 they can in fact listen, and can be instructed without this sort of nonsense. And the upside is that they are in the habit, by that point, of paying attention. So spanking past age 4-5 IS in fact useless, and even counter-productive.
Lastly, the only way to teach compassion, unfortunately, is pain and/or distress. Now, I have NOT read any research on this, but in my experience with other parents, the ones that say "never spank at any age" always seem to have horrible sociopaths for teenagers. Again, anecdotes only, here, and you and I both know anecdotes are not evidence.
That makes sense. Spank them so they won't get hurt even worse by themselves.
I think it's great that people are researching this stuff seriously, so thanks for sharing that link with the research, and also your illuminating anecdotes.
Anecdotes ARE evidence, by the way. They are just weak evidence, compared to actual research.
-
Quote from: Cain on October 22, 2013, 03:41:53 PM
I was smacked as a child, but it was pretty much under the same kind of regime Roger describes. And to be honest, I can only remember it happening once or twice at all. I suspect it was probably very difficult for my father to even do that, given the kind of monster my grandfather was. For him, using the belt was the soft option, and he hardly restrained himself to the most serious cases of personal endangerment to resort to physical violence.
My parents over-did it on a minor level (the belt, doing it past age 5, etc), but they weren't brutal.
I just sort of tapered off around age 4 for the kids, because by that point they'd listen. By age 9, non-corporal punishments were pretty much over, because by that point they weren't doing anything I considered punishable.
Of course, my standards are slightly different than your average American.
Spanking really has no utility as far as getting the child to learn or adjust behavior. It works in the short term, but it is consistent reasoning that is going to work in the long run. I've never raised a hand to either of my children. Reasoning worked fine. You may not be able to reason with a 2 year old but spanking them doesn't teach them anything other than when you make Mommy or Daddy mad they are going to smack you.
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 05:01:20 PM
Spanking really has no utility as far as getting the child to learn or adjust behavior. It works in the short term, but it is consistent reasoning that is going to work in the long run. I've never raised a hand to either of my children. Reasoning worked fine. You may not be able to reason with a 2 year old but spanking them doesn't teach them anything other than when you make Mommy or Daddy mad they are going to smack you.
And don't stick the fork in the electrical outlet.
But, of course, your children are fucking GENIUSES and understood electrical theory from the moment of conception, right?
:lulz:
I was spanked, although I'd be quick to say they never overdid it. Its definitely not the spanking which has stayed with me over the years.
My dad has recently expressed some weird views on this, though. He said it is most useful for the parents; that a lot of the parents he saw who never spanked their kid would instead get very frustrated, bottle it up, and create an atmosphere of tension that would upset the kid more because they can't do anything about it. To his way of thinking, at least with a quick spank, its all over afterwards and both parent and kid can feel like the issue is resolved.
I'm not sure I agree, but I don't have kids and have no plans to change that any time soon, if at all. I do not feel in any way qualified to tell anyone else how to do it.
No. That's what outlet covers are for. If they did try to mess with them, I'd just say, "No, ouch, hot" and move them away. Seemed to do the trick.
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 05:12:29 PM
No. That's what outlet covers are for. If they did try to mess with them, I'd just say, "No, ouch, hot" and move them away. Seemed to do the trick.
Yes, because when visiting other peoples' houses, it is totally acceptable to ask them to baby-proof their house before you arrive.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG
RWHN, of course, is an expert on all things, and has achieved a state of Mike. In which not only is HE right, EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO BE WRONG. NO MATTER WHAT THE SUBJECT IS.
I gotta ask, RWHN, have you ever considered a career in the field of engineering?
Because you and Mike really ought to go bowling.
I'm not seeing universal agreement ITT that spanking = good.
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 05:22:44 PM
I'm not seeing universal agreement ITT that spanking = good.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? You're here to vomit up your contrarianism again. Just like always. It's what you DO.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 05:17:05 PM
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 05:12:29 PM
No. That's what outlet covers are for. If they did try to mess with them, I'd just say, "No, ouch, hot" and move them away. Seemed to do the trick.
Yes, because when visiting other peoples' houses, it is totally acceptable to ask them to baby-proof their house before you arrive.
Maybe he kept his assets well protected at his own home all the time. That seems to be the more responsible policy.
Quote from: Demolition Squid on October 22, 2013, 05:11:48 PM
I was spanked, although I'd be quick to say they never overdid it. Its definitely not the spanking which has stayed with me over the years.
My dad has recently expressed some weird views on this, though. He said it is most useful for the parents; that a lot of the parents he saw who never spanked their kid would instead get very frustrated, bottle it up, and create an atmosphere of tension that would upset the kid more because they can't do anything about it. To his way of thinking, at least with a quick spank, its all over afterwards and both parent and kid can feel like the issue is resolved.
I'm not sure I agree, but I don't have kids and have no plans to change that any time soon, if at all. I do not feel in any way qualified to tell anyone else how to do it.
I think he's wrong too, but it does sugest an interesting idea: that just because you don't spank your kid, doesn't mean you are a great parent. You have to look out for other forms of emotional abuse too.
The article linked in the OP mentioned that yelling, which many people use instead of spanking, is also ineffective.
I agree, emotional abuse or threats can be just as ineffective or damaging, Parenting is a marathon, not a sprint. Actually, it's more like marathons, one after another into infinity. Consistency and persistence are the keys.
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 06:34:58 PM
I agree, emotional abuse or threats can be just as ineffective or damaging, Parenting is a marathon, not a sprint. Actually, it's more like marathons, one after another into infinity. Consistency and persistence are the keys.
Thank you Dr. Spock. :lol: I noticed you haven't left yet. Please do so.
Another thread derailed. Yay.
4 more months.
My kids pulled outlet covers right out, ten minutes after I put them in. :lol: They never stuck forks in the outlets, but the covers were an ATTRACTION.
Quote from: What's New Wildebeest? on October 22, 2013, 05:01:20 PM
Spanking really has no utility as far as getting the child to learn or adjust behavior. It works in the short term, but it is consistent reasoning that is going to work in the long run. I've never raised a hand to either of my children. Reasoning worked fine. You may not be able to reason with a 2 year old but spanking them doesn't teach them anything other than when you make Mommy or Daddy mad they are going to smack you.
You don't do it when you're mad, stupid. Reacting from anger with kids never works.
Totally fucking pissed = cool off before dealing with kids.
RWHN: Here to inform the other parents they're doing it wrong. :lulz:
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 22, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Another thread derailed. Yay.
Observe my Buddha-like dispassionate response. Spank threads are and have always been exactly what is said on the label, if you know what I mean. And I think you do.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 22, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Another thread derailed. Yay.
Observe my Buddha-like dispassionate response. Spank threads are and have always been exactly what is said on the label, if you know what I mean. And I think you do.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Lol
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 07:14:06 PM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 22, 2013, 06:53:20 PM
Another thread derailed. Yay.
Observe my Buddha-like dispassionate response. Spank threads are and have always been exactly what is said on the label, if you know what I mean. And I think you do.
:lol:
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Lastly, the only way to teach compassion, unfortunately, is pain and/or distress. Now, I have NOT read any research on this, but in my experience with other parents, the ones that say "never spank at any age" always seem to have horrible sociopaths for teenagers.
My kids are counterexamples. I know several dozen others. Also, the only way to teach compassion, fortunately, is to show it.
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Yeah, there's really no point in answering something that was already answered in the thread, so I'm going to go see what I can fit in my ass.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:19:59 PM
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Yeah, there's really no point in answering something that was already answered in the thread, so I'm going to go see what I can fit in my ass.
Holist's entire face?
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:19:59 PM
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Yeah, there's really no point in answering something that was already answered in the thread, so I'm going to go see what I can fit in my ass.
My bad, I didn't read it through. Sorry.
But, in actual fact, having raised 4 kids to the age of being able to decide not to stick forks into power outlets (wouldn't that just short the power outlet and blow the fuse??), I never had a problem with that, despite never spanking. I do recall sitting with one 2-year old by a power point and moving his hand away and saying no about 200 times in a row. Then he stopped being interested and stayed that way. Only now, that I am raising the 5th one, have I learned that there is actually a device you can fit to your electrical system for that very eventuality, a very fast power interrupter that responds to short-circuits fast enough to avoid electric shock. I actually had one fitted. It was blown, several months later. By a 10-year-old sticking a knife into a toaster to get stuck toast out. Didn't occur to me to explain that.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 22, 2013, 10:26:11 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:19:59 PM
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Yeah, there's really no point in answering something that was already answered in the thread, so I'm going to go see what I can fit in my ass.
Holist's entire face?
Yeah, probably followed by the rest of him... :)
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:27:18 PM
But, in actual fact, having raised 4 kids to the age of being able to decide not to stick forks into power outlets (wouldn't that just short the power outlet and blow the fuse??),
Well, there's only one way to find out, right? :lulz:
FOR SCIENCE!
:facepalm:
Listen up, everyone. The trades are really, really easy and everyone who's anyone understands them completely, because tradesmen aren't trained linguists. However, at this point I feel I should post a pretty strong warning: IF THE FORK HITS THE HOT SIDE OF THE OUTLET, UNLESS YOU MANAGE TO GET A TINE INTO
BOTH SIDES OF THE OUTLET AT THE
EXACT SAME MOMENT, YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE.
Now, one side of the outlet is neutral, meaning NOT HOT, meaning OKAY. The other side, though, is all full of SCIENCE. BAD SCIENCE THAT WANTS TO HURT YOU and DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE SKILLS because it's UNFAIR.
So when the kid shoves the fork into the outlet, he/she has a 50% chance of getting 110VAC at 10-20 amps (220 at 5-10 in Europe, IIRC). This is FATAL in many cases, as it sort of, you know, MAKES YOUR HEART BEAT ALL JIGGERY POKERY and NO OXYGEN GETS TO YOUR BRAIN and YOU DIE.
So, while I know that this is all very simple, common information that everyone knows, your results may vary.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:35:59 PM
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:27:18 PM
But, in actual fact, having raised 4 kids to the age of being able to decide not to stick forks into power outlets (wouldn't that just short the power outlet and blow the fuse??),
Well, there's only one way to find out, right? :lulz:
FOR SCIENCE!
:facepalm:
Listen up, everyone. The trades are really, really easy and everyone who's anyone understands them completely, because tradesmen aren't trained linguists. However, at this point I feel I should post a pretty strong warning: IF THE FORK HITS THE HOT SIDE OF THE OUTLET, UNLESS YOU MANAGE TO GET A TINE INTO BOTH SIDES OF THE OUTLET AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT, YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE.
Now, one side of the outlet is neutral, meaning NOT HOT, meaning OKAY. The other side, though, is all full of SCIENCE. BAD SCIENCE THAT WANTS TO HURT YOU and DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR LANGUAGE SKILLS because it's UNFAIR.
So when the kid shoves the fork into the outlet, he/she has a 50% chance of getting 110VAC at 10-20 amps (220 at 5-10 in Europe, IIRC). This is FATAL in many cases, as it sort of, you know, MAKES YOUR HEART BEAT ALL JIGGERY POKERY and NO OXYGEN GETS TO YOUR BRAIN and YOU DIE.
So, while I know that this is all very simple, common information that everyone knows, your results may vary.
Thanks for the lecture, I'll keep that in mind.
I don't know about the shape of US power outlets, but the ones over here: it would be actually quite difficult to get any part of a fork into either of the holes, come to think of it. You'd have to bend the fork quite a lot. Can 2-year-olds do that? Also, venting your amazement at my incompetence has, once again, served you well in sidestepping the more interesting question - was spanking actually life-saving for your kids?
And for those of you who feel that this is largely unfair because the electricity will not listen to esoteric arguments, allow me to introduce you to your pal, MISTER WELL-ESTABLISHED KNOWLEDGE.
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
So, unfair as it may be, this sort of thing isn't up for debate. I mean, you CAN debate it, but the outlet isn't listening.
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:42:31 PM
Can 2-year-olds do that?
Two year olds are fucking GENIUSES when it comes to self-destruction. Simply BREEDING doesn't mean you've beaten Darwin. FIRST, you have to breed. THEN you have to keep the little sprog from KILLING HIM/HERSELF in wildly varying ways. Then YOU have to not kill them as teenagers. Then when THEY breed, YOU HAVE BEATEN DARWIN, because now it's THEIR problem.
And I have no idea if spanking spared a fatal event, because the fatal event never happened, because I taught my kids to stay away from certain things when they were toddlers. They're both grown up now, and they don't seem to be overly traumatized by my primitive and tyrannical methods.
Thing is, between the ages of 8 and 45, I've had some several dozen shocks from the mains power we tend to have around here, which is around 220 V at 10 or sometimes 16 Amps maximum. And lived to tell the tale. I realise that others are more sensitive. I certainly wish to protect my kids from accidental electric shocks. I'm just not convinced that spanking them is the only way to go. Or even that it is a way to go. Or to make them pay attention. Not to mention that minor little point about teaching compassion. But never mind. :)
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:27:18 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:19:59 PM
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:12:13 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 02:31:41 PM
Spanking won't make them understand or change their mind, either...But it will condition them to stay away from such things, which keeps them alive, which is in fact your first responsibility to them.
So I'm guessing you are so old that cheap and childproof plastic plugs for power outlets were unheared of when your kids were toddlers?
Yeah, there's really no point in answering something that was already answered in the thread, so I'm going to go see what I can fit in my ass.
My bad, I didn't read it through. Sorry.
But, in actual fact, having raised 4 kids to the age of being able to decide not to stick forks into power outlets (wouldn't that just short the power outlet and blow the fuse??), I never had a problem with that, despite never spanking. I do recall sitting with one 2-year old by a power point and moving his hand away and saying no about 200 times in a row. Then he stopped being interested and stayed that way. Only now, that I am raising the 5th one, have I learned that there is actually a device you can fit to your electrical system for that very eventuality, a very fast power interrupter that responds to short-circuits fast enough to avoid electric shock. I actually had one fitted. It was blown, several months later. By a 10-year-old sticking a knife into a toaster to get stuck toast out. Didn't occur to me to explain that.
Yes, it's called a ground fault interrupt, and it has a very good chance of saving your life in such a case. Now all you have to do is MAKE SURE THAT EVERY OUTLET THE KID GOES NEAR FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS A GFCI ATTACHED TO IT.
Which is a brilliant and infallible strategy for which I commend you.
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:48:39 PM
Thing is, between the ages of 8 and 45, I've had some several dozen shocks from the mains power we tend to have around here, which is around 220 V at 10 or sometimes 16 Amps maximum. And lived to tell the tale. I realise that others are more sensitive. I certainly wish to protect my kids from accidental electric shocks. I'm just not convinced that spanking them is the only way to go. Or even that it is a way to go. Or to make them pay attention. Not to mention that minor little point about teaching compassion. But never mind. :)
Obviously, you are from Krypton and physics doesn't apply to you.
And that shocks are not always fatal, but all shocks at that current and voltage have a very high likelihood of being dangerous or even fatal. So you should OBVIOUSLY EXPOSE YOUR KID TO THEM.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Get off my fucking planet.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:47:03 PM
and they don't seem to be overly traumatized by my primitive and tyrannical methods.
Well okay, but they may just be being kind to their dear old da.
So what has the spank thread taught us?
Electricity isn't actually dangerous, because it being dangerous doesn't fit Holist's worldview, and that physics has no power in the face of linguists, and that these guys:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Should all quit, due to gross incompetence.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:49:09 PM
Yes, it's called a ground fault interrupt, and it has a very good chance of saving your life in such a case. Now all you have to do is MAKE SURE THAT EVERY OUTLET THE KID GOES NEAR FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS A GFCI ATTACHED TO IT.
Which is a brilliant and infallible strategy for which I commend you.
Well, technology does seem to have advanced. I only had to fit one of these boxes to the main cicruitboard of the house and, as if by magic, it works on all the outlets in the house! Ha?
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:51:15 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:47:03 PM
and they don't seem to be overly traumatized by my primitive and tyrannical methods.
Well okay, but they may just be being kind to their dear old da.
They are my genetic offspring. How kind do you think they are?
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:52:30 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:49:09 PM
Yes, it's called a ground fault interrupt, and it has a very good chance of saving your life in such a case. Now all you have to do is MAKE SURE THAT EVERY OUTLET THE KID GOES NEAR FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS A GFCI ATTACHED TO IT.
Which is a brilliant and infallible strategy for which I commend you.
Well, technology does seem to have advanced. I only had to fit one of these boxes to the main cicruitboard of the house and, as if by magic, it works on all the outlets in the house! Ha?
This post is utterly perfect. I do not wish to break its crystalline purity with a factual response.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
So what has the spank thread taught us?
Electricity isn't actually dangerous, because it being dangerous doesn't fit Holist's worldview, and that physics has no power in the face of linguists, and that these guys:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Should all quit, due to gross incompetence.
Sorry, but that's not what it taught me! It just confirmed my long-standing belief that you are a lying, shameless, manipulative bastard.
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
So what has the spank thread taught us?
Electricity isn't actually dangerous, because it being dangerous doesn't fit Holist's worldview, and that physics has no power in the face of linguists, and that these guys:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Should all quit, due to gross incompetence.
Sorry, but that's not what it taught me! It just confirmed my long-standing belief that you are a lying, shameless, manipulative bastard.
Yes, I am totally lying about electricity. Go lick the socket. It's TASTY, and I am ashamed that I was trying to hog up all the delicious electricity for myself.
http://lee65.hubpages.com/hub/Electric-Shock-Protection (http://lee65.hubpages.com/hub/Electric-Shock-Protection)
Those things. They works.
Also on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device)
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 10:57:06 PM
http://lee65.hubpages.com/hub/Electric-Shock-Protection (http://lee65.hubpages.com/hub/Electric-Shock-Protection)
Those things. They works.
Also on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device)
Yeah, pretty sure I mentioned GFCIs when you brought them up.
And all sockets have them everywhere you go. EVERYWHERE.
Now go lick the socket. Lick it. It's tasty and nutritious.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
I am ashamed that I was trying to hog up all the delicious electricity for myself.
And ashamed you should be, because that was very incorrect of you.
So we have learned here that a GFCI, the last line of defense, now makes it perfectly reasonable to allow children to play with power outlets. Because everyone everywhere has them, and they are completely infallible.
This thread makes me squee in my pants a little bit. No, a lot.
Now, how to make it safe for children to run out from between parked cars? Perhaps if we made them a large padded suit, perhaps pressurized?
Not in the least, you terrible man.
It is certainly the case that we need to stop children from doing certain things, even before it is truly possible to reason with them. Question is, is spanking the only way, or the best way to do this. I don't think it is. A combination of adequate attention, preventive measures and luck is better. No amount of spanking, by the way, will eliminate the requirement for luck. It may reduce it slightly, at a cost I am not willing to pay.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
So what has the spank thread taught us?
Electricity isn't actually dangerous, because it being dangerous doesn't fit Holist's worldview, and that physics has no power in the face of linguists, and that these guys:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Should all quit, due to gross incompetence.
And don't forget!!!!!: It's hard to get a fork into an electric socket without bending the tines, ERGO (duhrgo?) the kids are safe, because it's only FORKS that they stick in things.
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on October 22, 2013, 11:16:46 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 22, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
So what has the spank thread taught us?
Electricity isn't actually dangerous, because it being dangerous doesn't fit Holist's worldview, and that physics has no power in the face of linguists, and that these guys:
http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html
Should all quit, due to gross incompetence.
And don't forget!!!!!: It's hard to get a fork into an electric socket without bending the tines, ERGO (duhrgo?) the kids are safe, because it's only FORKS that they stick in things.
Yeah, forget nails and hairpins and nail files and wire hanger bits and pieces of paper and part of a sandwich and folded foil and chicken wire and twisty-ties from bread loaves and garbage bags and those little tiny spoons that come with some salt cellar things . . . and forget taking the socket plugs out for doll furniture or robot houses or to put tines up on the bathroom floor beside the tub . . .
Quote from: holist on October 22, 2013, 11:10:58 PM
Not in the least, you terrible man.
It is certainly the case that we need to stop children from doing certain things, even before it is truly possible to reason with them. Question is, is spanking the only way, or the best way to do this.
It's "proven technology". Until something comes along that works better and is proven to do so, I shall not be hopping in my time machine to redo things.