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[Shit man, the way things are going, we may not have a choice!]

Being the utopian Idealist that I am I can envisage a world where human psychology has evolved enough to operate under a system which, to our primitive eyes, could only be described as anarchy.

Maybe in a couple of thousand years or so. Who knows? Maybe sooner. Right now, however, if all forms of governments suddenly vanished in the poof of smoke we'd all like to see some vanish in, I'm pretty sure planet earth would very closely resemble an abattoir within a matter of hours.

Shit man, the way things are going, we may not have a choice!

[I don't know why to some here anarchy HAS TO mean absolute destructive chaos. You could call what the peacefull, succesfull native American tribes did for all those years anarchy. To me, it just means a world without standing armies, central banks, corporations, all the nasty shit of civilisation. If you want to say that humans will never or could never attain such freedoms, fine, but don't confuse the issue by claiming "anarchy=raping and pillaging". The reality is much more complex then that.]

Yeah I guess. "sort of" in the "no it fucking isn't you idiot"- sense

I don't know why to some here anarchy HAS TO mean absolute destructive chaos. You could call what the peacefull, succesfull native American tribes did for all those years anarchy. To me, it just means a world without standing armies, central banks, corporations, all the nasty shit of civilisation. If you want to say that humans will never or could never attain such freedoms, fine, but don't confuse the issue by claiming "anarchy=raping and pillaging". The reality is much more complex then that.

[Isn't that, then, a sort of admonishment for anarchy? Anarchy, as in, a world without nation states as we understand them now?]

My humble 2 cents:

Cain hit it on the head when he mentioned population size as a predominant factor

Let me elaborate a bit.

From the little that I know on the subject, humans are naturally social animals.

Furthermore, social interaction seems to occur on a pendulum scale, with cooperation on one side and competition on the other.

That being said, our brains are only structured to live in a tribe of about 150 people.  In other words, as a neurological limitation, you can only really hold emotional relationships with a maximum of 150 people.  You cannot have much meaningful interaction with anyone else, lest you push someone else out of your 150.

It is said that when humans originally lived in tribes of such sizes of 150, they were very communistic.  Sure, there was some competition to be at the top, but it was never so much that the tribe would fall apart.  The tribe was too worried about survival.  To go back to the pendulum metaphor, the swings of the pendulum were never that extreme and so equilibrium could be recaptured much more easily.

Fast forward to contemporary times.

Enter the concept of The Stranger,Ñ¢ (No, not something written by Camus)

As soon as civilization started to develop, we thrust ourselves out of the simple tribal life, and introduced ourselves to the stranger.  That is, someone who we have no emotional connection with, and essentially is not completely human in our minds.

We now live in super-tribes of millions and millions of people.  You could theortically go through an entire day meeting only strangers, and never have to encounter anyone you actually know personally.

And it is a lot easier to do awful things to a stranger, than it is to do things to someone you know.

Back to the pendulum.

With small swings in the pendulum (a result of small social group sizes), nothing ever got too out of hand.  You might have some in-fighting here or there, but it could be managed on the whole and the tribe could go on living.

With EXTREMELY large swings in the pendulum (a result of astronomical social group sizes), anything and everything has the potential to get out of hand right quick.  This can be both good and bad.

What can an extreme swing to cooperation do?  Just look at the world wars.  Entire countries forget any and all internal strife and band together to fight the outside threat.

What can an extreme swing to copetition do?  Look at America's current income distribution.  An extremely small minority controls the most wealth.  And a large percentage of people are relegated to irreparable poverty and destitution.

Certainly a far cry from the naturally communistic lifestyle of our pre-historic ancestors.

Isn't that, then, a sort of admonishment for anarchy? Anarchy, as in, a world without nation states as we understand them now?

[Fuckin' right it does.]

I'd say go for it - it makes you come across as really cool and important

Fuckin' right it does.

[whether I'm posting in bold or not, LOL.]

I've gotta' decide whether I'm posting in bold or not, LOL.

[By the way, if anyone wants to site Iraq and Afghanistan, don't, because there not valid examples. Ever heard of P2OG? False flagging? The Basra prison break?]

As apposed to... the rule of Bush's/Obama's military tribunals?

There's no difference.  Ever heard of what they did to "criminals" (meaning people who disagreed with the warlords) in Somalia?  Its not pretty reading.  You think waterboarding is bad, wait until you're forced to kill members of your own family because of the "shame" they may have bought on you for fraternizing with another warlord's people.  Welcome to anarchy.

By the way, if anyone wants to site Iraq and Afghanistan, don't, because there not valid examples. Ever heard of P2OG? False flagging? The Basra prison break?

[Britain is disgustingly packed. There's out-and-out Mad Max anarchy, and the there's devolution. Downsizing, tribalization.]

What do you think makes Crete different from the UK, in that respect then?  I'm sure you know what most towns in this country are like on a Friday night, for example, so I have to wonder what makes it different. 

As an aside, I know when I was in Peru I was on an island on Lake Titicaca which was very similar to how you describe Crete, in fact I think all the cops were on the mainland.

Well, you do know Britain is one of the worst places to live in the EU, right? So then, we have to ask why that is. To a lesser or greater extent, I think it has to do with making an example of us, for the New World Order. We are kind of a test scheme here. So, you'd have to look at all sorts of things, like how our schools differ from those of other EU countries, to how much drug shit is pushed by intelligence agencies, all sorts of things. But let's not forget, that Crete has a a helluva' lot more sun than we do! It's smaller, less entangled in politics... just more laid back.

I wondered if it had anything to do with population size myself.  You can get a few thousand to get on quite well with minimal policing, but obviously with more people you not only have the opportunity for violence to break out more often, chances are you wont know (and so wont care) about who you attack and, because of the size of society, you can actually still get by quite well even if you do upset a few people, unlike smaller communities who can ostracize such an individual.

Britain is disgustingly packed.

There's out-and-out Mad Max anarchy, and the there's devolution. Downsizing, tribalization.

"Humans are humans, so of course there are going to be systems of Destructive Discord, negative grids of reality trough which people choose to percieve the world. So yes, there is a strong religious prescence, but it's nothing that wouldn't die out ina generation or two if under slightly different conditions, as it has everywhere else."

I should have wrote "as it has in other parts"

What do you think makes Crete different from the UK, in that respect then?  I'm sure you know what most towns in this country are like on a Friday night, for example, so I have to wonder what makes it different. 

As an aside, I know when I was in Peru I was on an island on Lake Titicaca which was very similar to how you describe Crete, in fact I think all the cops were on the mainland.

Well, you do know Britain is one of the worst places to live in the EU, right? So then, we have to ask why that is. To a lesser or greater extent, I think it has to do with making an example of us, for the New World Order. We are kind of a test scheme here. So, you'd have to look at all sorts of things, like how our schools differ from those of other EU countries, to how much drug shit is pushed by intelligence agencies, all sorts of things. But let's not forget, that Crete has a a helluva' lot more sun than we do! It's smaller, less entangled in politics... just more laid back.

Question:  Are there any other systems that help enforce the social status quo on Crete?

For example:  Mafia, Militias, the Church, etc.  I would suspect there are.  So in a sense, you're trading one set of enforcement for another.  Not exactly anarchy.

Humans are humans, so of course there are going to be systems of Destructive Discord, negative grids of reality trough which people choose to percieve the world. So yes, there is a strong religious prescence, but it's nothing that wouldn't die out ina generation or two if under slightly different conditions, as it has everywhere else. And besides, no one pays much attention to it anyway. Condoms aren't decreed to be the devil's playthings, for example.

Are there any militias? Well, no, not rly. Why would there be?

Is there a mafia? No. Not unless you count the odd drug dealer here and there. But hey, the CIA grows most of that shit anyway! : D

[........... flee to the Canadian mountains, LOL.Well, it's a loaded question. I'd tell you when we get there, but right now, it's not so easy for me to give you any crystal ball opinions. I know that from experiancing life ithe Greek island of Crete, where there is about 5 policeman for the etire island (only a slight exageration), people get along fine. There is no gang warfare. There are no police to handle it, even if there was. So, that's one example. And you can feel free to provide me with any conflicting evidence regarding Crete. What about Chicago, you ask? Well... do you see us getting anywhere near statelesness in our lifetimes without there first being a devestating WW4 systems crash? There ya' go.]

So, how would the entire situation not devolve into gangs and militias fighting each other?


No, srsly.  I'm interested in hearing how you would sustain a society without a police force.

........... flee to the Canadian mountains, LOL.

Well, it's a loaded question. I'd tell you when we get there, but right now, it's not so easy for me to give you any crystal ball opinions. I know that from experiancing life ithe Greek island of Crete, where there is about 5 policeman for the etire island (only a slight exageration), people get along fine. There is no gang warfare. There are no police to handle it, even if there was. So, that's one example. And you can feel free to provide me with any conflicting evidence regarding Crete. What about Chicago, you ask? Well... do you see us getting anywhere near statelesness in our lifetimes without there first being a devestating WW4 systems crash? There ya' go.

[more]

http://somethingpositive.net/sp12102002.shtml

Right, because if it wasn't for the British police force (I'm a Brit, so...) people would, like, be commiting more crimes.

Oh noes!  What happened to your bolded text, RJ?

You deleted it.

And that's what guns are for.

[Right, because if it wasn't for the British police force (I'm a Brit, so...) people would, like, be commiting crimes. Oh wait...]

http://somethingpositive.net/sp12102002.shtml

Right, because if it wasn't for the British police force (I'm a Brit, so...) people would, like, be commiting crimes. Oh wait...

[Transhumanism is a nice dream.]

Nothing would make me happier than for anarchy to be a workable system.  Seriously, it would be great if it could be done, but I just cannot see it happening, not without some sort of psychological evolution which would mean humans as we currently understand them are not involved. I presume that was what HTRJ meant by transhumanism, though as with most branches of Anarchism you can never be totally sure what someone means until they clarify themselves.

Transhumanism is a nice dream.

www.kurzweilai.net

Anyway, the sexual revolution came "outa' the blue" too, you know. wilhelm Reich, and all that?

[I give the film a 6/half outa' ten. Good try though.]

Ever see that movie, "The Anarchist cookbook"?
I don't wanna ruin the ending for those that haven't seen it, but, yeah, that's what happens.
It's back to "survival of the fittest" or "survival of whoever can backstab the most without getting caught".

I give the film a 6/half outa' ten. Good try though.