Religous Argumentationating

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

22 since I went to bed. This can't be good. Anyone want to give me a summary of what happened?

For a while PH was thought to be poptard. Turns out he's not.

Thread surprisingly veered back on topic with mixed results.

[BabylonHoruv]

Yeah, I dont think magick really works, its just me-time.

As far as the bible is concerned, the current King James something-or-other isnt the original text, its specifically the parts the Catholic church chose that best supported their beliefs.

Now, the original texts I would consider, but not the current King James thing.

King James wasn't Catholic.  he was an Anglican.  The Catholics were opposed to translating the bible from Latin and translating it into English, so that it was available to the common people, was a fairly revolutionary act on James' part.

That doesn't mean there weren't errors made, and political agendas followed in the translation.

[BabylonHoruv]

If you have original texts or proper translations then Ill take it seriously, but I know specific things got mistranslated, like "suffer not a witch to live" was originally "suffer not a poisoner to live"
Also, Doktor Phox, the main thing I have a problem with is the Old Testament, and the fact that so much is essentially disregarded in actual practice if it isnt convenient. For example, men must remove hats to pray- convenient, easy, its common. Women must wear a veil to pray- not convenient, seems ridiculous.

I think you've got the idea that "wicca" = "pagan". Gardner invented Wicca, so gardnerian Wicca is the ONLY kind of Wicca there is. Other shit is just some ridiculous pagan shit masquerading as ridiculous wiccan shit.

So then every branch of protestant catholicism is fake ridiculous shit, and Catholicism is the only thing there is, all other denominations that branched off from it are fake ridiculous shit?

Wrong again,  the original (at least according to the Jews I have asked) is closer to "thou shalt not suffer a slanderer to live" or "thou shalt not suffer a gossip to live"  The exact word doesn't exist in English and the closest translation is "evil-speaker"  evil speech is a very serious concept for Jews, enough so that it is in the commandments "thou shalt not bear false witness" is how that particular commandment is usually translated.  Poisoning wasn't something that was a huge moral issue for them.

[BabylonHoruv]

So, anyway, ph, I would recommend that you actually go to church regularly for a while. And I can't believe I'm suggesting that. But it might be helpful to get your information about Christianity from a Christian source. It may be boring as hell, but you'll at least be better informed about the whole thing. Talk to some priests.

If he's Wiccan and he goes to a Catholic church I think he might be shocked by how much he enjoys it.  Catholics and Wiccans have roughly the same rituals, they both crib them from the Celts, and the Catholics do a way better job of it.

[BabylonHoruv]

I dont pretend to know everything about linguistics, the point that where the word bible came from isnt relevant to the content of the bible is the point I was making.

And I usually say christian/catholic because though theyre both christian, i doubt a catholic would be too happy if you said they were christian, there is a definition between the two for a reason.
And I dont remember which she is because she mentioned it once about two months ago.

Every Catholic I have met would be offended if you said he or she was NOT Christian.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

In a way, yes.

Phox, youre right and wrong. I expected the mildly condescending enlightenment, but I didnt expect you to be trained in linguistics, multiple languages, etc. That was like a bonus.

Donald, you are now breathing manually.

See, this is exactly the kind of shit I was talking about.  And now that LMNO is on line, you're pretty much fucked.  When night falls and Mr Chop and the upside down people come around, you'll wish you hadn't tested...Because LMNO always gets things his way, and you Florida geeks lack the required glands to keep his goons away.

[LMNO]

Thank you for the lovely introduction, Roger.



So, 10 hours and 23 pages.  Holy fuck.

Anyway, some things I noticed.

2. Logic, logic, and logic. If you can't at least pretend there is some vague semblance of logical thought, you lose.

Followed by

Though retarded, potentially and most likely completely illogical, unreliable, useless, and a pointless waste of time in every way except as a tool to waste my time, I decided they [his choice of philosophers] are mine.

Also,

People defend things they think need defending, thats why bullet proof vests go over the torso but not the arms and legs. If you dont defend it, you feel either that it isnt being or wont be attacked, but more likely that it doesnt need to be defended.

Or, people could just enjoy arguing.  I know I do.  Pick two opposing sides, and have at it.  You don't have to have a personal stake in an argument in order to defend one side over another.

Finally, in regards to all this Bible stuff... You can't make a rule that a Christian can't use a bible because it's mistranslated.  If "Person A" reads "Bible Translation B" (or in some way is taught/indoctrinated in the ways of "Bible Translation B") and sees a personal truth there, or a moral framework to follow, then they become a "Bible B Christian."  They believe what "Bible B" says, and it doesn't matter what a previous or differing translation says.

What you're falling for is the genetic fallacy, which is based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context.  Any book that is used to justify current beliefs is valid for that person.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Thank you for the lovely introduction, Roger.

We know you here in Tucson, LMNO.  We keep a room full of illegals that we "milk" with a valium'd up Thai rentboy, just to have enough semen and blood to paint the windows with.  Only strangers are in danger here, as they laugh at our quaint customs, at least until your boys get around to them.

[pH]

Just a heads up to all the people who returned after my non-poptart status was affirmed, and those who joined thread:
The original rules have been abandoned/defeated
Argument saying "cant use Bible" was discarded as an inconsistency fallacy
Argument about mistranslation of the bible was explained because Phox actually does have original texts and can read them

Net, me calling it wicca is through a vague and convoluted strand of thought the pretty much breaks down to "I use terms from wicca (lady and her consort), sybols (pentacle, although its not just from wicca) and i like how the word 'wicca' sounds."
As for karma, i see it as everything will have an opposite in some way that will balance and eventually negate or at least lessen its effect.

And Roger, I'm in Florida now, but I was born in Alaska and grew up more around San Francisco. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

 

Oh lovely thread...

I'd like to take a quick look at the "logic" used in discussing religion:

Logic = "I believe x because y, this is how it makes sense to me" as opposed to "My priest/pastor/??? said x, so i said okay" or "x:xx says y, so it must be true"

Either neither of those are logical, or both of those are logical, depending on how you look at it. However, I find it difficult to accept the first as logical and the second as illogical in the same sentence.

The first isn't logical, its simply stating the cause of your belief. For example: "I believe that it is a sin to eat a hot dog with a bun, because Eris ate her hot dog without a bun to comfort herself after the Great Snub." That's not at all logical.

Of course, "My priest/pastor says X, so I said OK, because I've never read the Bible and have no idea what the hell it means..." might actually be logical in some sense. It would be illogical to claim that the Priest was wrong, if the person had no basis to make such a claim. It might also be logical to accept the word of an expert, if you are not an expert (My biology teacher said that plants have squarish cells and humans have roundish ones... I've never looked in a microscope, so I'll just agree with her."

Logic, at best, can be used to determine the likelihood of some belief statements. Using 'logic' to pick a belief system is more likely to be an exercise in fooling yourself.  

As for your 'take' on Wicca... it seems like one of the more illogical ones to me. I mean, Wicca is pretty specific, it means that you are inducted into a coven, that you are taken through specific rituals which provide specific psychological experiences and you have then been tested/accepted.

"Eclectic" Wicca is not Wicca... its just a bunch of random beliefs which some people tag with the label Wicca to make themselves feel better. Is it not illogical to claim a term that has specific requirements and yet not actually meet those requirements? For example, I like stethoscopes and tongue depressors, but if I carried those around and thought that made me a "Doctor" someone may put me in a loony bin.

The concept of Karma, in the sense you are using it is a random modern western confusion of the idea. Again, is it logical to use a known term with a known definition in some completely different way?

I'm not saying you shouldn't 'believe what you want to'... just that, so far, your beliefs and supporting arguments don't seem at all logical.

Slaves in egypt, did the whole 'let my people go' bit, plagues and raining frogs, raining fire, and river turned to blood, followed by mass exodus and parting of the sea?

No, those weren't Jews those were Sumerians.

There is no evidence that Egyptians had great numbers of slaves (let alone an entire race). There is no evidence that Hebrews (or Sumerians) were held captive in Egypt. There is evidence that the Hyksos invaded and ruled over parts of Egypt for a time... but they were most likely of Canaanite and Amorite descent.

There is also no evidence of a mass exodus from Egypt through the desert to Israel (nor evidence for Israel at that time in history).

[Nephew Twiddleton]

The second point is somewhat irrelevant to the question I posed. I wanted ph to explain what significance the Jews had in the Bible, since it was just a vague one word item on his list. Of course the Bible might not be 100% accurate in regard to history.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

and i like how the word 'wicca' sounds."

You don't chain dance in Toronto occasionally, do you?

As for karma, i see it as everything will have an opposite in some way that will balance and eventually negate or at least lessen its effect.

Utter rubbish.

And Roger, I'm in Florida now, but I was born in Alaska and grew up more around San Francisco. 

Doesn't matter.  You've breathed the air; the change is irreversible.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

The second point is somewhat irrelevant to the question I posed. I wanted ph to explain what significance the Jews had in the Bible, since it was just a vague one word item on his list. Of course the Bible might not be 100% accurate in regard to history.

Ah I see your point.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Of course the Bible might not be 100% accurate in regard to history.

Balls.  Elijah taught those UFOs a thing or two about coming around here slumming.  He was fucking hardcore, and killed the alien with one punch.  No whimpering about a probing from HIM, let me tell you.

[pH]

Quote from: Doktor Blight on Today at 02:58:45 AM
Quote from: pH on Today at 02:57:20 AM
Slaves in egypt, did the whole 'let my people go' bit, plagues and raining frogs, raining fire, and river turned to blood, followed by mass exodus and parting of the sea?


No, those weren't Jews those were Sumerians.




There is no evidence that Egyptians had great numbers of slaves (let alone an entire race). There is no evidence that Hebrews (or Sumerians) were held captive in Egypt. There is evidence that the Hyksos invaded and ruled over parts of Egypt for a time... but they were most likely of Canaanite and Amorite descent.

There is also no evidence of a mass exodus from Egypt through the desert to Israel (nor evidence for Israel at that time in history).

This was Bible content, not historical content.

Ratatosk, I'm using the labels becuase though it isnt exact, its generally simpler to say "eclectic wicca" than go into explaining my full belief system if it comes up in conversation, although how close i am to 'correct' Wicca varies depending on how life is going for me, only the general concepts you mentioned that I had said never change.

Only time I've ever been to canada was once when I was 4, and I enjoy my utter rubbish.