Curious about a concept in the BIP

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.

My flatmate knew this shaman once, but the last thing we heard of her was in the local paper after she was sent to prison for stabbing her neighbour for closing the gate. Her rationale in court was that it impeded the free circulation of energy from the trees down the road.

True story. 

See what you made my elbow chakra do?

[Cain]

I knew that.  Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.

That's because reality isn't subjective.

Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.

Oh, this I GOTTA see.

The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf

A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.

You are aware Fred Alan Wolf is a laughing stock among theoretical physicists, right?  He's a perfect example of a quantum mysticist weenie.

Also, I'm fairly sure a respectable figure would not have taken part in the patently fradulent Ramtha School production, What the Bleep Do We Know?  Since it is so patently bullshit.

[Triple Zero]

My personal background is Northern European in an area where shamanism is still practiced

Where in Northern Europe is shamanism still practiced?

Do you mean all the homeopathetic natural "medicine" that's so popular in Germany? The "dr" Alfred Vogel of Bioforce AG, Biohorma and to have brought Echinacea from Sioux indians to Europe?

(BTW he was also a Jehova's Witness and used his profits to fund the Watchtower organisation, as well as argued and warned about the dangers of blood transfusion)

[Igor]

Dear sweet baby Jesus, did someone just quote that guy from "What the bleep do we know"?
For those who don't know, the movie was the product of a movement that follows the teachings of Ramtha, a 35,000-year old disembodied entity from ancient Lemuria.

Obviously, this man's beliefs about Teh Quantumz should be taken very seriously.

Honestly, her morals aside, I thought Wyldkat was one of the more intelligent TCCers.
Oops.

[Cain]

Plus he has Wolf in his name, so he is clearly a douchebag.

[Triple Zero]

Well, if you don't know any better, I'm sure it sounds like science.

but

HIS NAME IS "WOLF" COME ON!

(damnit Cain you sniped that one)

[LMNO]

1.  He calls himself "Dr Quantum".

2.  (as observed above) he appeared in What The Bleep Do We Know?

3.  He appeared in the film version of The Secret.

4.  Sweet merciful fuck, someone made a film version of The Secret!

5.  The book WK referenced was written in 1991.  QM has come along a bit, since then. 



That's one of the problems with trying to tie science and spirituality together... Spirituality gives you a TRUTH, and you can stop right there.  Science keeps expanding its understanding, and the spirituality side has to keep doing Lo5 backflips to keep up... or they just ignore the new science and scream "QWANTUMZ!"

[Luna]

Shamanism, like many "faiths" is based in two things.

First, there's the attempt to explain shit people didn't understand, and to exert control over external forces.  Essentially, it's primitive science, from back before people had a better grip on how things work.  (We've still got aways to go... but, we've come a long way, baby).

And, second, it's a group's method of keeping control of the population.  "I know better than you do, stupid sheeple, you must do what I say, because I know what the Spirit World wants."

It's either outdated, or bullshit.  Or both.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I knew that.  Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.

That's because reality isn't subjective.

Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.

Oh, this I GOTTA see.

The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf

A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.

That guy is a physicist like I'm a physicist. Seriously, he is thoroughly mocked and reviled in the scientific community for theories that have NO ACTUAL BASIS IN SCIENCE.

I'm sure it all sounds good and plausible to a layperson, but that guy is a crackpot who uses sciencey-sounding language to promote a New Age agenda. If people want to be all New Agey and spiritual, I think that's fine, but what's NOT fine is lying to people by telling them that physics supports your New Agey spirituality.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Nigel is riding the correct motorcycle. Shamanism is fine for people that want to play with shamanism... Hell it might even be beneficial as a sort of spirituality (which some people seem to have a need for). However, it isn't quantumz or physics... Its a model based on fiction.

[Cain]

I really cannot stand people who allow themselves to be spoonfed bullshit when they have the world's most powerful fact-find and sharing apparatus at their disposal.  Religious dipshits in countries where they dont have running water have that excuse, people in a first world country with the spare time to post online do not.

http://scienceblogs.com/pontiff/2007/11/learn_quantum_theory_in_ten_mi.php
http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/

Both of those links are prominently displayed on this very forum.  I mean, goddamnit.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I knew that.  Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.

That's because reality isn't subjective.

Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.

Oh, this I GOTTA see.

The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf

A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.

That guy is a physicist like I'm a physicist. Seriously, he is thoroughly mocked and reviled in the scientific community for theories that have NO ACTUAL BASIS IN SCIENCE.

I'm sure it all sounds good and plausible to a layperson, but that guy is a crackpot who uses sciencey-sounding language to promote a New Age agenda. If people want to be all New Agey and spiritual, I think that's fine, but what's NOT fine is lying to people by telling them that physics supports your New Agey spirituality.

Ah, it's the return of The Dancing Wu Li Masters.

Fake science, designed to "prove" the value of mushy-headed crap.

I figured as much.

[LMNO]

Great example of metaphor-stretching.

[Thurnez Isa]

I knew that.  Spiritual paths in general tend not to mesh with "Reality" for a lot of people.

That's because reality isn't subjective.

Although I doubt anyone is interested, there is a good book about shamanism and science out there that I can look up if anyone is curious.

Oh, this I GOTTA see.

The Eagle's Quest by Fred Alan Wolf

A physicist's personal study and "explanation" of shamanism.

You are aware Fred Alan Wolf is a laughing stock among theoretical physicists, right?  He's a perfect example of a quantum mysticist weenie.

Also, I'm fairly sure a respectable figure would not have taken part in the patently fradulent Ramtha School production, What the Bleep Do We Know?  Since it is so patently bullshit.

Wyldkat
There's a half decent book on the topic called "Beyond the Bleep" which goes into depths about Wolf, even dedicating a whole chapter to him. The main problem is, as put in the book, "Wolf is accepting what Cramer (John Cramer and his calculations of possibility waves) without any attempt of analyzing whether it makes sense or not... Cramer is making an elementary error of assuming that quantum mechanics is about waves traveling in a physical space, rather then about 'state vectors' and 'density matrices' in a Hilbert space... There is no 'complex conjugation' operation in a Hilbert space - contrary to what Cramer suggests. Utnitary time reversal operation may exist - but it has nothing to do whatsoever with the scalar product that is being used for calculating 'probabilities''. Not to mention he's been accused of half-truths and misrepresentations though I suspect these are due to him being lost in his own little imaginary world then anything else.
To put it in really simple terms. It's all good to have mavericks in science, there is a need of them for new ideas, but as soon as you abandon the method and start to accept ideas without probably analyzing them your ideas could just be just nonsense pilled upon nonsense - then you start talking about how events can occur in reverse order from which they happened and the only goal of life is find god and the other stuff Wolf writes about in his books.

[LMNO]

Hold on... Wolf doesn't calculate in Hilbert space?