REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[East Coast Hustle]

Comparing it to something that is legal does work and marijuana compares favorably to Alcohol.

So?  It still has significant harmful impacts on youth.  I don't care if it isn't "as bad".  Bad is bad in my book when it comes to youth.  

Actually a pesticide would be an even better case for that sort of comparision than a drug, since it is a direct replacement for the more dangerous pesticide while weed may or may not directly replace alcohol use as a recreational drug.

You're kidding right?  Kids and adults, more and more, are becoming poly-drug users.  They don't approach substance use from a linear, rational, and mathematical perspective.  A kid that has been using alcohol regularly isn't going to see marijuana becoming legal and say, "Gee, I guess I'll put down the bottle and just smoke weed.  It's the same thing."

C'mon.  This is the real world we're talking about.  A lot of the kids who are smoking marijuana are also drinking, and vice versa.  That argument doesn't make any sense.  

Right,  I was arguing that a pesticide is a direct replacement, whereas weed may or may not be a replacement.  I was bashing your metaphor, not your arguement.

Yeah, but actually all you did was make yourself sound dumb and/or stoned.

also...



FUCK THE FUCK YEAH!!! 50 PAGES BITCHES!!!!

[LMNO]

 

[AFK]

100 or bust!

[AFK]

Right,  I was arguing that a pesticide is a direct replacement, whereas weed may or may not be a replacement.  I was bashing your metaphor, not your arguement.

Well, no.  a pesticide may or may not be a direct replacement given that there are a variety of pesticides on the market with different qualities.  Marijuana absolutely would not be a replacement. 

The thrust of my point however remains, which is that whether or not marijuana is "as bad" as other drugs or not is immaterial.  It still presents a level of bad to users, namely minors, and therefore warrants prohibition on its own merits. 

[trix]

The thrust of my point however remains, which is that whether or not marijuana is "as bad" as other drugs or not is immaterial.  It still presents a level of bad to users, namely minors, and therefore warrants prohibition on its own merits. 

You have a good point, but have you considered that, for many minors, unless they have help from someone of age who is okay with the idea of them drinking, alcohol is often more difficult to obtain then marijuana!
Source: http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/articlefiles/380-2009%20Teen%20Survey%20Report.pdf

The reason for this is exactly because it is illegal.  I agree that teens and children smoking pot is bad.  But when you outright ban a substance that a large potion of the population clearly wants to use, there goes any chance at regulating said substance and setting age limits on it.

Most drug dealers give a rat's ass how old a customer is, they aren't checkin ID.  But unless the minor has help from a parent or older sibling, they can't walk into a liquor store and grab themselves a beer.

Food for thought.

- trix

[trix]

Also, consider that buying street weed comes with other risks too, as there is nothing in place to assure what the buyer is getting is pure and doesn't have other drugs or chemicals or pocket lint or insects in it that are being smoked as well.

Not to mention, an adult should be free to make his/her own decision on what they wish to consume, especially when the health risks for adults smoking marijuana have been proven less harmful than most other legal diversions.  If your problem is with minors obtaining and consuming pot, then legalization seems to be an effective method at allowing laws and regulations to be passed to help keep it out of the hands of our youth.

Also, the gateway drug argument comes in no small part from the fact that, again, marijuana is illegal.  Thus, the types that people often have to go to, to obtain some weed, can also help them to get other drugs, or at least point them in the direction.  If it were legal, and regulated, and sold at, say, liquor or tobacco stores, even minors that find a way to obtain and experiment, will have far less contact with users of other, more "hardcore" drugs.

- trix

[AFK]

The thrust of my point however remains, which is that whether or not marijuana is "as bad" as other drugs or not is immaterial.  It still presents a level of bad to users, namely minors, and therefore warrants prohibition on its own merits. 

You have a good point, but have you considered that, for many minors, unless they have help from someone of age who is okay with the idea of them drinking, alcohol is often more difficult to obtain then marijuana!
Source: http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/articlefiles/380-2009%20Teen%20Survey%20Report.pdf

You maybe were referring to this part of the report?:  

Between 2007 and 2009 there was a 37 percent increase in the percentage of teens who say marijuana is easier to buy than cigarettes, beer or prescription drugs, from 19 percent to 26 percent.

You do realize that if 26 percent are saying it is easier to get than alcohol that means that 74 percent are NOT saying it is easier to get than alcohol.  Right?  

And alcohol is still very easy for a minor to obtain even given the laws.  It has become much more difficult for a minor to just walk in and impersonate a legal adult, and buy the alcohol themselves.  That is true.  But kids will have plenty of legal-age social access points, where it really isn't that much of a barrier for them.  

The reason for this is exactly because it is illegal.  I agree that teens and children smoking pot is bad.  But when you outright ban a substance that a large potion of the population clearly wants to use, there goes any chance at regulating said substance and setting age limits on it.

But age limits won't work because as I mentioned, there are plenty of social access points for minors to get marijuana.  

Most drug dealers give a rat's ass how old a customer is, they aren't checkin ID.  But unless the minor has help from a parent or older sibling, they can't walk into a liquor store and grab themselves a beer.

They don't need to, because there are plenty of legal adults who are willing to help them out and buy it for them.  Again, social access.  

Food for thought.

At the risk of sounding like a condescending, patronizing prick (a risk I'm willing to take), you should know that I am a professional in the field of substance abuse prevention.  I know you are new to the boards so I can't expect you to know that.  So I have a pretty good background on access and how kids do or don't get their alcohol and drugs.  

[Dysfunctional Cunt]

Someday we will all agree to disagree on this topic.... 

[LMNO]

trix: It would do you good to read all 50 pages of this thread, plus the other threads on the subject.  The points you brought up are in no way new.

[AFK]

Also, consider that buying street weed comes with other risks too, as there is nothing in place to assure what the buyer is getting is pure and doesn't have other drugs or chemicals or pocket lint or insects in it that are being smoked as well.

So?  You think legalization is going to end that?  If marijuana is legalized that means composition will have to be regulated.  When the government regulated marijuana fails to give the end user their bang for their buck they are going to go right back to the cartels who will change their business model to compete with government marijuana.  So it is very likely your hardcore marijuana user will still be dealing with the black market and will still be getting product with mystery ingredients.  

Not to mention, an adult should be free to make his/her own decision on what they wish to consume, especially when the health risks for adults smoking marijuana have been proven less harmful than most other legal diversions.  If your problem is with minors obtaining and consuming pot, then legalization seems to be an effective method at allowing laws and regulations to be passed to help keep it out of the hands of our youth.

No, it is not.  Because it puts more pot in more homes.  More homes with kids.  More kids with easy access to marijuana.  It doesn't take a terribly large leap to figure out that means use amongst minors will go up.  Because many minors get their access to pot through social sources.  Age limits will do fuck-all about that.  

Also, the gateway drug argument comes in no small part from the fact that, again, marijuana is illegal.  Thus, the types that people often have to go to, to obtain some weed, can also help them to get other drugs, or at least point them in the direction.  If it were legal, and regulated, and sold at, say, liquor or tobacco stores, even minors that find a way to obtain and experiment, will have far less contact with users of other, more "hardcore" drugs.

It would still be illegal for minors which means minors would still need to access adults to get the drugs.  Which means they are pretty likely to still encounter the types of people who would also know how to access other illicit substances.  But more to the point, if and when a child decides they want to experiment with a harder drug, they will find access to it.  Particularly when they become an addict.  In my experience the larger and more prominent factor in the gateway effect is access.  Gateway drugs are those that are easy to get and include legal substances such as prescription drugs and inhalants, and of course alcohol and tobacco.  Legalizing marijuana is simply going to create even greater social access to pot.  

[AFK]

Someday we will all agree to disagree on this topic.... 

Well, this is my wheelhouse, granted I'm on the other side of the wheelhouse compared to Telarus, but I like discussing the topic even if I hold a minority perspective.  Of course we'll never agree, but it's fun anyway. 

[Doktor Howl]

I'm gonna argue in favor of weed, on account of keeping useless stupid people on the couch where they belong.

[AFK]

You have a good point, but have you considered that, for many minors, unless they have help from someone of age who is okay with the idea of them drinking, alcohol is often more difficult to obtain then marijuana!
Source: http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/articlefiles/380-2009%20Teen%20Survey%20Report.pdf

Just wanted to point out in the source you posted, on page 14.  figure 4.E, it shows where kids are most likely to get marijuana. 

Did you notice what the top two were?

Friends
School

What was at the bottom? 

Drug Dealers
Parents

Yeah, age limits aren't going to even touch that. 

[trix]

trix: It would do you good to read all 50 pages of this thread, plus the other threads on the subject.  The points you brought up are in no way new.

Yeah, being a 50 page topic it does seem as though any point I could think to make has probably been brought up already.  Unfortunately, however, I don't really have the time for that exhaustive amount of catching up.  At least not today.  Which, I suppose, means I should have just STFU until I did have the time, but I had recently read the "easier access to marijuana than alcohol" article on NORML (yeah, I know, biased as all hell) and wanted to hear the other side of that argument.  I find myself, when holding an opinion, more often trying to find and read dissent, than agreement.  It seems more useful.  Anyway I wandered off topic.

To R.W.H.N.:  To avoid quoting that entire post for space reasons, I'll just respond generally.  Upon reading the survey you are right, it does seem to be lacking in the "marijuana easier to get" data that it has been used as a source for by at least 15 news sources that google has shown me.  Unfortunately, I did the dumbass thing of reading the articles, seeing how often it was linked as a source, and assumed (  ) that the data must be reflecting that information for it to be used so widely.  My mistake.

That said, however, I still strongly believe that as a reasonably intelligent and responsible adult, I should have the freedom to unwind in any manner I deem appropriate, and if the concern is the use by minors, that should be addressed on it's own.  Of course, as with most things relating to minors, the biggest issue is the parents.

So while you make good points, and I agree with many of them, in the end, as Khara says, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't have children, and telling me my freedom to do what I please should be restricted because other people can't parent their children properly, is something I simply cannot agree with.

[trix]

I'm gonna argue in favor of weed, on account of keeping useless stupid people on the couch where they belong.

Hah, you're just jealous because I have hair.