REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[Doktor Howl]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

This would be the smart, compassionate, effective way of dealing with it.

But our government isn't really into "effective". Let alone "smart" or "compassionate".

No government is.  Governments are huge stupid beasts that use hammers for every situation.  Hammers are good for some things...We DO need government.  However, there are some things that the government shouldn't be involved in, and this is one of them.

[Doktor Howl]

I'm coming in a bit late, but---

I think it's unfair to say that RHWN can't fairly discuss this topic, even though its his professional field, because the data he's using came from cops instead of drug dealers/users.

I agree...I think both sources are obviously biased, and if one is okay to use, they both are.

[AFK]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

Even if you legalize marijuana you still need the DEA.  Even if you legalized all drugs you'd still need the DEA.  Just the operation to combat prescription drug diversion and counterfeit prescription drugs is a mountain of work that someone needs to do.  It's not a good thing for people to be getting fake VIOXX and Lipitor. 

This is a very good point.  However, what percentage of the DEA is used to handle fake prescription drugs?

I don't know other than it is going up. 

[Doktor Howl]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

Even if you legalize marijuana you still need the DEA.  Even if you legalized all drugs you'd still need the DEA.  Just the operation to combat prescription drug diversion and counterfeit prescription drugs is a mountain of work that someone needs to do.  It's not a good thing for people to be getting fake VIOXX and Lipitor. 

This is a very good point.  However, what percentage of the DEA is used to handle fake prescription drugs?

I don't know other than it is going up. 

Fair enough.  I still think the proper answer is prevention & treatment, though, not ruining kids' lives over a joint or two.

I know you don't advocate that, but it IS the inevitable result of prohibition...Along with all the border violence we have down here (and even worse in Texas).

[Doktor Howl]

So, let me ask you, RWHN...What's more harmful?  A kid smoking pot, or a kid going to the big house?

[AFK]

The latter.  But if the state has a decent juvenile drug court system, or some other kind of diversion program, the kid isn't going to the Big House unless there was some other offense such as violence. 

[Doktor Howl]

The latter.  But if the state has a decent juvenile drug court system, or some other kind of diversion program, the kid isn't going to the Big House unless there was some other offense such as violence. 

Pretty sure we don't have that here.

[BabylonHoruv]

Talking about the "legalization movement" in general is another hollow and lazy argument. You have put up some substantive points, and most people on the legalization side acknowledged them as valid. However, you seem incapable of admitting you're wrong about anything marijuana related.

When you repeatedly do things like:

• Ignore widespread damaging effects of marijuana prohibition

Well, this is not completely true.  I have time and time again said that there is definitely room for improvements in law enforcement when it comes to marijuana.  Such as those who have personal amounts of the substances should not be going to jail and instead should be diverted to education, treatment, or community service, depending on the results of a substance abuse assessment. 

That said, I have argued against where I see stats misused, conflated, or exaggerated.  Such as focusing on arrests and not looking at how many of those arrested for simple possession actually end up in a jail or prison cell for more than an overnight.  Or looking at how many people are in prison for marijuana offenses and ignoring the fact that many had another con-current offense, a violent offense, or were dealers.  If you were to present me with a clear cut set of data that shows a majority of people in prison were in there ONLY for simple possession charges, then we'd have something to talk about. 

You also tend to completely ignore the harm that prohibition does to non-users, due to it's role in financing organized crime.

As far as arrests and jail time most of us disagree with you over whether or not a dealer should be doing jail time.  If there isn't something wrong with adults possessing and using the drug there's also nothing wrong with distributing the drug to adults, or "manufacturing" (growing) the drug for personal use or for distribution to adults.  Also, if more than a certain amount is found on a person they are not charged with possession, they are charged with distribution.  Same with if they are the one who serves as the connection to a larger dealer for a buy among friends.  (to make that clear, if Joe, John, Diana, and Annie all want some weed, and they get together to buy a quarter pound, because it is cheaper buying in bulk, and Joe is the one who goes and buys it and then splits it up among his friends and gets caught somewhere in the process he's dealing, not possessing, even though he makes no profit on the deal) Even if Joe buys a quarter pound purely for personal use, and gets busted for it, he'll still be charged with dealing, simply because of the quantity he's been found with.

Looking at the statistics for people serving jail time for possession versus distribution is deceptive since many of those people in jail for distribution are not weed dealers.  Also, manufacturing carries heavier penalties than distribution and someone who is growing a few plants for personal use, thus staying out of the whole black market economy entirely, is going to be hit with manufacturing.

[BabylonHoruv]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

Even if you legalize marijuana you still need the DEA.  Even if you legalized all drugs you'd still need the DEA.  Just the operation to combat prescription drug diversion and counterfeit prescription drugs is a mountain of work that someone needs to do.  It's not a good thing for people to be getting fake VIOXX and Lipitor. 

That looks like work for the FDA.

[BabylonHoruv]

The latter.  But if the state has a decent juvenile drug court system, or some other kind of diversion program, the kid isn't going to the Big House unless there was some other offense such as violence. 

or distribution, which as I pointed out doesn't necesarially mean he's actually selling weed.

[AFK]

You also tend to completely ignore the harm that prohibition does to non-users, due to it's role in financing organized crime.

That's assuming that organized crime would in fact go away if marijuana were legalized.  Considering the rise in the black market for diverted prescription drugs and counterfeit prescription drugs, I'm not sure that would be the case.  

As far as arrests and jail time most of us disagree with you over whether or not a dealer should be doing jail time.  If there isn't something wrong with adults possessing and using the drug there's also nothing wrong with distributing the drug to adults, or "manufacturing" (growing) the drug for personal use or for distribution to adults.

To adults.  Yes, that is true.  But you do concede that even in a world where pot is legal that these charges would still exist for selling and distributing to minors, correct?  I would be interested to see what the stats look like in terms of how many of those in jail for dealing were dealing to minors.  

[AFK]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

Even if you legalize marijuana you still need the DEA.  Even if you legalized all drugs you'd still need the DEA.  Just the operation to combat prescription drug diversion and counterfeit prescription drugs is a mountain of work that someone needs to do.  It's not a good thing for people to be getting fake VIOXX and Lipitor. 

That looks like work for the FDA.

Why would you want to spend all of that time and money training FDA employees to do what DEA employees already know how to do?  Seems like a big waste to me. 

[BabylonHoruv]

You also tend to completely ignore the harm that prohibition does to non-users, due to it's role in financing organized crime.

That's assuming that organized crime would in fact go away if marijuana were legalized.  Considering the rise in the black market for diverted prescription drugs and counterfeit prescription drugs, I'm not sure that would be the case.  

As far as arrests and jail time most of us disagree with you over whether or not a dealer should be doing jail time.  If there isn't something wrong with adults possessing and using the drug there's also nothing wrong with distributing the drug to adults, or "manufacturing" (growing) the drug for personal use or for distribution to adults.

To adults.  Yes, that is true.  But you do concede that even in a world where pot is legal that these charges would still exist for selling and distributing to minors, correct?  I would be interested to see what the stats look like in terms of how many of those in jail for dealing were dealing to minors.  

Since distribution isn't charged differently based on the customer I doubt those statistics are accessible.

[AFK]

The latter.  But if the state has a decent juvenile drug court system, or some other kind of diversion program, the kid isn't going to the Big House unless there was some other offense such as violence. 

or distribution, which as I pointed out doesn't necesarially mean he's actually selling weed.

How often does this occur?  What percentage of those charged with distribution are not distributing? 

[BabylonHoruv]

We need more funding for that to happen.  We are under-funded as it is, with a Democratic President.  I would say, nationally, we really don't have the capacity to do justice to the problem that exists today.  I mean, we have managed to make progress with the peanuts we have but we could do more.  I just fear that legalizing marijuana will tip the balance and we'll lose the progress we've made, and then some.  Ethically, I can't condone taking that leap of faith.  

1.  I'm reasonably certain that everyone who WILL smoke shit IS smoking shit, based on 4 decades of observation.

2.  Eliminate the DEA, give funding to you guys.  You get funding, the kids get counseling, etc, instead of going to prison for 7 years or so, and coming out ruined.

Even if you legalize marijuana you still need the DEA.  Even if you legalized all drugs you'd still need the DEA.  Just the operation to combat prescription drug diversion and counterfeit prescription drugs is a mountain of work that someone needs to do.  It's not a good thing for people to be getting fake VIOXX and Lipitor. 

That looks like work for the FDA.

Why would you want to spend all of that time and money training FDA employees to do what DEA employees already know how to do?  Seems like a big waste to me. 

well, if the DEA has been dismantled you just take those same employees and put them under the FDA.  Counterfeit medication or adulterated medication is pretty clearly an FDA issue.

Prescription diversion may be a whole different matter, but seeing how the DEA tends to deal with problems I'm not sure I want them dealing with adulterated medication in any case.