REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[AFK]

I dunno, because the law currently does offer consequences of choices, such as those we've already discussed like jeopardizing financial support for college.  Both as a parent and as someone who has studies parenting (one of my many hats in this line of work) what I understand is that teens need to experience consequences before they adapt or change their behavior.  A permissive community is just like a permissive parent.

Surely we've all known those kinds of parents.  The parents that let their kids do whatever they want.  There are no limits, no responsibilities.  The kids never learn from the choices of their behavior because there are no consequences.  It isn't much different when the community is permissive.  It ends up encouraging more anti-social behavior instead of curbing it.  That's why communities where the laws are enforced, and enforced fairly and equitably, tend to be communities that have lower amounts of youth substance abuse.  Because it sets a standard and communicates a social norm, a social value of that community.  That substance abuse isn't something that is overtly or tacitly condoned in that community. 

[Thurnez Isa]

For every anecdotal child who was a spoiled brat we can all recall one that probably smoked a lot in high school and turned out perfectly fine and with far fewer problems then one who was practically a virginal slasher hero in school. Your talking about taking away someone's choice on what they want to ingest because it's probably harmful to them and no one else, and you consider it anti-social. I don't consider it anti-social at all. In fact in some cases I consider it a socially bonding experience and sometimes even a right of passage. I'm not part of society now? Even though I don't smoke does that make me more dangerous cause I actually think people should experience it a few times at least. I'm basically now advocating breaking the law (Yes I know in Canada I'm technically not but let's pretend).
Also in terms of education. What ever happened to just doing what we should be doing in terms of sex education... you know just telling them the truth and letting them make up their own minds?

[AFK]

To be clear, I use the term "anti-social" in a categorical sense.  And it is categorization of the behavior, not the individual.  I understand that initially it can be a bonding experience for some.  That is basically stage two, social use.  The issue is that far too many kids move beyond stage two into stages 3 and 4.  Then it messes with all kinds of things including social circles, family, education, their job if they work after school, etc.  It is the leading substance when it comes to why kids are admitted into treatment, significantly higher than alcohol. 

As far as education goes, that is essentially what we are doing now.  We give them the facts as far as how marijuana could potentially effect them.  Including the documented evidence of how it can derail future plans.  Sure, for some this doesn't happen, but for many it does.  So the question becomes is it really worth taking that chance? 

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

The last few posts are chock-full-o annecdotal evidence, but if I was going to pick I'd err with Reverend What's-His-Name? because although Thurnez is correct, I tend to believe the society problem on the whole swings in the other direction and that far more people are too stupid to make up their own minds and that the ones that are capable, will circumvent the law peaceably anyway, and will be responsible enough to not get caught.

I don't like pot personally (I'm really bad with it, turns me into a drooling moron, more so even) but I know my step mother smokes every day and is a respectable business owner and productive member of society and doesn't at all even resemble a stereotypical pot head.  It can be done, but for every responsible user I've encountered in my days, there were fifty that were filthy druggies and alcoholics that were fundamentally overgrown children incapable of operating at acceptable society productivity levels.

As such it seems to me it's more practical to have a more strict society in this regard because (at least in America) adult-sized people still need to be fucking babysat, and since you can't make a system for everyone, you have to accommodate the majority (or at least the loudest).

To be clear, I'm not against legalizing pot provided the change isn't swift and that the education system does a better job with explaining to young people it than they do with liquor.  I am also, however, against putting kids away for 20 years because they had a sheet of acid on them, that's just stupid (unless you own the prisons, then you are making a shit ton of cash).

I do agree, however, that the current system is a pile of shit and needs a serious overhaul.

[Thurnez Isa]

Yes but I'm willing to bet you don't tell them of any of the positives. For instance if you do a task which scatters your brain marijuana does help refocus the brain (though eating it does work better then smoking it in this regards).
It's like sex ed. If keep hammering home all the negatives (which I think you need to include for sure) like pregnancy, disease, female vaginas occasionally chopping your penis off, but you don't include any of the positives it's going to get disregarded but it is existentially not telling the whole story.

Sorry for the scatter brain response - the influenza I beat last weekend decided to have a sequel.

[Thurnez Isa]

The last few posts are chock-full-o annecdotal evidence, but if I was going to pick I'd err with Reverend What's-His-Name? because although Thurnez is correct, I tend to believe the society problem on the whole swings in the other direction and that far more people are too stupid to make up their own minds and that the ones that are capable, will circumvent the law peaceably anyway, and will be responsible enough to not get caught.

I don't like pot personally (I'm really bad with it, turns me into a drooling moron, more so even) but I know my step mother smokes every day and is a respectable business owner and productive member of society and doesn't at all even resemble a stereotypical pot head.  It can be done, but for every responsible user I've encountered in my days, there were fifty that were filthy druggies and alcoholics that were fundamentally overgrown children incapable of operating at acceptable society productivity levels.

As such it seems to me it's more practical to have a more strict society in this regard because (at least in America) adult-sized people still need to be fucking babysat, and since you can't make a system for everyone, you have to accommodate the majority (or at least the loudest).

To be clear, I'm not against legalizing pot provided the change isn't swift and that the education system does a better job with explaining to young people it than they do with liquor.  I am also, however, against putting kids away for 20 years because they had a sheet of acid on them, that's just stupid (unless you own the prisons, then you are making a shit ton of cash).

I do agree, however, that the current system is a pile of shit and needs a serious overhaul.

Don't worry about it.
RWHN is a big boy, and he's been arguing this point for some time now on a board where he's basically on his own. Plus without getting into it it's his job to try to curb drug abuse in adolescence.

[Thurnez Isa]

The last few posts are chock-full-o annecdotal evidence, but if I was going to pick I'd err with Reverend What's-His-Name? because although Thurnez is correct, I tend to believe the society problem on the whole swings in the other direction and that far more people are too stupid to make up their own minds and that the ones that are capable, will circumvent the law peaceably anyway, and will be responsible enough to not get caught.

I don't like pot personally (I'm really bad with it, turns me into a drooling moron, more so even) but I know my step mother smokes every day and is a respectable business owner and productive member of society and doesn't at all even resemble a stereotypical pot head.  It can be done, but for every responsible user I've encountered in my days, there were fifty that were filthy druggies and alcoholics that were fundamentally overgrown children incapable of operating at acceptable society productivity levels.

As such it seems to me it's more practical to have a more strict society in this regard because (at least in America) adult-sized people still need to be fucking babysat, and since you can't make a system for everyone, you have to accommodate the majority (or at least the loudest).

To be clear, I'm not against legalizing pot provided the change isn't swift and that the education system does a better job with explaining to young people it than they do with liquor.  I am also, however, against putting kids away for 20 years because they had a sheet of acid on them, that's just stupid (unless you own the prisons, then you are making a shit ton of cash).

I do agree, however, that the current system is a pile of shit and needs a serious overhaul.

Also I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what it comes down to most of the time, and that should be the common enemy for both sides of the debate.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Don't worry about it.
RWHN is a big boy, and he's been arguing this point for some time now on a board that he's basically on his own. Plus without getting into it it's his job to try to curb drug abuse in adolescence.

I wasn't trying to back him up personally, just weigh in on the topic.  If the avi's were switched I'd still have the same view. 

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Also I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what it comes down to most of the time, and that should be the common enemy for both sides of the debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhu4T_vwxIU

prisoners are generally slave labor imo :/

[AFK]

Yes but I'm willing to bet you don't tell them of any of the positives. For instance if you do a task which scatters your brain marijuana does help refocus the brain (though eating it does work better then smoking it in this regards).
It's like sex ed. If keep hammering home all the negatives (which I think you need to include for sure) like pregnancy, disease, female vaginas occasionally chopping your penis off, but you don't include any of the positives it's going to get disregarded but it is existentially not telling the whole story.

Sorry for the scatter brain response - the influenza I beat last weekend decided to have a sequel.

But marijuana also can eventually lead to issues that ultimately distract from education.  So even if there was an initial benefit, eventually, it would be negated if the kid becomes a regular user and abuses the substance.  

But just to turn it a bit, we certainly aren't going to stand up there and tell kids that if they tried marijuana once it would ruin their life and be really awful.  We cannot deny the initial benefits of experimentation which are basically the high and also the perceived benefit of being part of a group.  But we can lay out the data that shows what happens to a lot of kids who become addicted.  All of the kids that have to go into treatment.  All of the kids who drop out of school.  All of the kids who end up not going to college.  

Sure, there is a chance they could avoid all that, but it's just that, a chance.  Ultimately, it is still their choice, but at least now, it is an informed choice.  And something with that approach has worked.  Rates have been on the decline for the past 10 years.  

[AFK]

The last few posts are chock-full-o annecdotal evidence, but if I was going to pick I'd err with Reverend What's-His-Name? because although Thurnez is correct, I tend to believe the society problem on the whole swings in the other direction and that far more people are too stupid to make up their own minds and that the ones that are capable, will circumvent the law peaceably anyway, and will be responsible enough to not get caught.

I don't like pot personally (I'm really bad with it, turns me into a drooling moron, more so even) but I know my step mother smokes every day and is a respectable business owner and productive member of society and doesn't at all even resemble a stereotypical pot head.  It can be done, but for every responsible user I've encountered in my days, there were fifty that were filthy druggies and alcoholics that were fundamentally overgrown children incapable of operating at acceptable society productivity levels.

As such it seems to me it's more practical to have a more strict society in this regard because (at least in America) adult-sized people still need to be fucking babysat, and since you can't make a system for everyone, you have to accommodate the majority (or at least the loudest).

To be clear, I'm not against legalizing pot provided the change isn't swift and that the education system does a better job with explaining to young people it than they do with liquor.  I am also, however, against putting kids away for 20 years because they had a sheet of acid on them, that's just stupid (unless you own the prisons, then you are making a shit ton of cash).

I do agree, however, that the current system is a pile of shit and needs a serious overhaul.

Also I have a sneaking suspicion that this is what it comes down to most of the time, and that should be the common enemy for both sides of the debate.

Yes.  As I've said throughout this thread and others, there is definitely some reforms that are needed in the area of law enforcement and sentencing.  First time (non violent) offenders shouldn't be in prison.  Kids and adults who are arrested for possession charges should not be in prisons.  They should be put through some kind of diversion or drug court program.  And if a state doesn't have either of those, they should.  There are tons of things that could be done to mitigate the problems with the laws that put the wrong kind of people in prison. 

I personally draw the line at trafficking and heavier offenses.  But I think if we were able to improve the other areas I talked about, we wouldn't only save lives, we'd save a fuckton of money.  (That should then be 100% re-routed into prevention.)

[East Coast Hustle]

You mean like how legalizing alcohol reduced most of its social harm.



That's pretty rich. 

waittaminute...

don't you keep telling us we can't compare pot and alcohol?

[AFK]

Well, no.  Specifically what I've said is that whether or not marijuana is legal should be based upon its own merits.  It's own pros and cons.  Not whether or not other substances are better or worse. 

But see, what some of you are doing is saying marijuana should be legal because look at all the awful stuff alcohol and tobacco does.  You are arguing that it should be a contributing factor to the decision of whether or not it should be legal.  I say, again, it should be judge on its own merits. 

That post wasn't about comparing at all, really.  It was more of a comical observation that someone actually believes that repealing prohibition is somehow going to do away with the social harm of any substance.  It isn't part of my reasoning for keeping marijuana illegal. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Also, doesn't it suck that AKK has jumped in to defend your honor? I mean, many people here have enough of an established repoire with you that it won't cloud their judgment, but imagine what the noobs will think.

[Ambassador KLOK KAOS]

Also, doesn't it suck that AKK has jumped in to defend your honor? I mean, many people here have enough of an established repoire with you that it won't cloud their judgment, but imagine what the noobs will think.

straw man, deflected as bullshit by me.

My favoring of an opinion doesn't make it invalid or cheapen it at core value.

That shit only matters politically, like if Osama came out supporting Obama in the last election.

In the case of something like core value, gold still conducts electricity well even if AKK with all his stigma says gold conducts electricity well.

Anyone that would argue that based on such a premise is a fucktard.