Rape

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's good to get it out, even though it hurts to go through it again! I still jump when someone comes up behind me, and hate being cornered in a room with anyone even if they're not threatening or agitated. I don't know if that will change with any amount of therapy. Most likely that's from being beaten as a kid, though.

There are things I hesitate to talk about because I know how uncomfortable they make people. But if I hesitate, will people ever be able to talk about rape and understand it? Will victims always be afraid to talk because people will cringe? And furthermore, I'm not sure that having people know that shadowy "bad things" happened to me really makes them cringe any less. I'm still marked.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

I have argued this, particularly the bolded part, with more than one man (not picking on men, that's just who I've ended up talking about it with) and it's astounding and infuriating the way it doesn't fucking get through. Rape is not random, as you've pointed out, and yet I hear "you shouldn't be out and about by yourself after dark wearing that sexy jogging suit" or "if you don't do [insert behavior], then you're less likely to be raped" every single time I've argued it with someone. When it's pointed out that they're blaming the victim, they sort of ignore it with a "yeah, well..." and move on.
I don't get it.

It makes them feel safer.

They shroud it in words like "taking responsibility for your safety" and "reducing risk" and "being practical" because they don't understand how rape actually happens, and furthermore, they don't want to.

"The Gift of Fear" is a book that I think everyone, man and woman, should read. It talks about how the right "precautions" are listening to your instincts and not being afraid to seem rude. Most rapes don't happen through random chance. Rapists choose their victims because they see vulnerability, not because they see cleavage. But the thing is, really, mitigating vulnerability is incredibly difficult without abandoning most freedoms and accepting constant male chaperonage, which leaves us completely vulnerable to... oh yeah. Rape. But it would be rape only by those with the assigned right to rape us; our fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Why does that not seem like an improvement?

Personally, I think that the best possible rape mitigation factor is to make your body a dangerous weapon, and to listen to your instincts.

[BabylonHoruv]

I think that what you may be responding to in yourself is sexual shame, which is the idea that sex is bad and that sexual lust makes you a bad person. Either that or you are actually restraining the urge to rape, which as far as I know from reading psychology books, most men don't have. In which case, good for you for restraining it, but I think you might want to be careful about ascribing the urge to rape as common to all men.

Sexual shame, however, if very common, just due to the rather nasty fact that our society has labeled sex "bad" and "sinful" and that gets driven into most of us from a very early age whether we like it or not.

I don't think all men have that urge, I do think a large enough portion of men have it that if it were not usually kept in check it would be very bad.  I doubt that many of those men who do have that urge would be capable of actually raping someone.  

We all fantasize about terrible things sometimes.  Running that car that cut you off in traffic off the road.  Shooting that damn annoying dog that the neighbor has that keeps shitting on the lawn and tearing into your garbage.  Raping that attractive and extremely frustrating woman that made you feel like less of a man.  We don't all fantasize about doing the same awful things, but we all fantasize about some awful.  That doesn't mean we would give in, or even could bring ourselves to do the awful things we fantasize about.

ETA: we refers to both men and women.

[Cain]

People convince themselves that there are rules of behavior for avoiding being raped, so that they can be filled with the smug complacency of "it won't happen to me". It's like pretending that the tsunami in Japan occurred because they prayed to the wrong gods; it gives people a sense of security and control. But, it's a false sense of security and control. Sometimes there are things you could have done differently (listen to your foreboding when the man follows you outside, and go back inside until he's gone) and sometimes there aren't (you couldn't have known he slipped into your apartment while you were taking the garbage out) but all the rest of it... pretending that it has to do with low-cut tops, short skirts, talking to strange men, walking alone at night, or being alone in bars... that's all wishful thinking designed to assuage our own discomfort with the idea that there are human predators out there choosing who to rape on the basis of the probability that they can get away with it. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rapes happen either in the woman's home, or the home of the rapist. Dark alleyways? Not so much. It's convenient to ignore statistics that show that most rape victims are raped by someone they know. A friend of a friend, in a situation they had no reason to distrust.

I have argued this, particularly the bolded part, with more than one man (not picking on men, that's just who I've ended up talking about it with) and it's astounding and infuriating the way it doesn't fucking get through. Rape is not random, as you've pointed out, and yet I hear "you shouldn't be out and about by yourself after dark wearing that sexy jogging suit" or "if you don't do [insert behavior], then you're less likely to be raped" every single time I've argued it with someone. When it's pointed out that they're blaming the victim, they sort of ignore it with a "yeah, well..." and move on.
I don't get it.

When I was helping to teach self-defense to a group of teenage girls, years ago now, the main instructor repeated pretty much all of these tropes.  Even back then, I knew that wasn't right.  Along with the potentially deadly (for the students) techniques he was teaching ("traditional" stances bastardized to possibly cause a little damage to an assailant - not enough to floor the fucker, but probably enough to get him angry enough to smack a woman around), I couldn't continue that class in good faith.  You teach nasty, simple moves that are going to put someone on the ground where they cannot get back up, and give students the facts about rape so they can better avoid it - not teach traditional tripe and moralize at them. 

I also gave a detailed report to the school about the unsuitability of the course they were providing, though I doubt they listened much.

[Juana]

Ugh. Probably not.

We at least had an effective self defense class taught by two former victims after a girl from one of our sister high schools was raped, and they taught those sort of moves. Which was fortunate, since about a year later another girl was attacked and fended the would-be rapist off with what she was taught.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

From the reading I've been doing, rape seems to be mostly a violent reaction to a sense of powerlessness. What I've read fairly strongly indicates that the best rape prevention is child abuse prevention, and counseling for abused children.

Funny, because that's also the best prevention for drug addiction.

So, if we could just get people to quit hitting, fucking, and humiliating their kids...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that what you may be responding to in yourself is sexual shame, which is the idea that sex is bad and that sexual lust makes you a bad person. Either that or you are actually restraining the urge to rape, which as far as I know from reading psychology books, most men don't have. In which case, good for you for restraining it, but I think you might want to be careful about ascribing the urge to rape as common to all men.

Sexual shame, however, if very common, just due to the rather nasty fact that our society has labeled sex "bad" and "sinful" and that gets driven into most of us from a very early age whether we like it or not.

I don't think all men have that urge, I do think a large enough portion of men have it that if it were not usually kept in check it would be very bad.  I doubt that many of those men who do have that urge would be capable of actually raping someone.  

We all fantasize about terrible things sometimes.  Running that car that cut you off in traffic off the road.  Shooting that damn annoying dog that the neighbor has that keeps shitting on the lawn and tearing into your garbage.  Raping that attractive and extremely frustrating woman that made you feel like less of a man.  We don't all fantasize about doing the same awful things, but we all fantasize about some awful.  That doesn't mean we would give in, or even could bring ourselves to do the awful things we fantasize about.

ETA: we refers to both men and women.

Yes, I have very ugly violent fantasies at times. Most of us do, especially those who have been targets for violence.

The thing is, it's not the momentary sexual/violent urge toward a specific person that results in rape. You may feel it and think "Now I understand the urge to rape", but what most people refuse to even hear, let alone absorb, even within this very conversation, is that most of the time, a rapist has already decided to rape before they pick out a victim.

I don't know why people don't want to hear that. Maybe it makes rape seem more frightening and less avoidable. But it's REALLY important, if you actually want to avoid being raped. Murder is more likely to be a crime of passion, done when emotions are high, toward a specific person, in the heat of the moment, than rape is. The rape victim isn't usually anyone in particular to the rapist... she (or he) is just convenient. And rapists don't usually rape only once, they do it over and over and over again, usually without consequences.

[Luna]

And rapists don't usually rape only once, they do it over and over and over again, usually without consequences.

That's the part that really gets me...  I didn't report my attack... so the son of a bitch was never caught... which means that somebody else, at least one other somebody, probably more, was hurt because I said nothing.

I was younger, then, I was scared, and I figured I had nothing to report, really, since I never got a real look at him and couldn't have picked him out of a lineup... but I should have reported it.

[Worm Rider]

I think that in particular, the male aversion to the subject of rape is rooted in fear. Fear of being like a rapist, fear of their own sexuality as a male, fear of becoming involuntarily aroused by the thought of rape (many perfectly normal men do), fear of what that means, fear of having something in common with the rapist. So they run away and avoid the subject.

I'll bite. I can only speak for myself, as a male. I haven't been taught the proper distinction between appropriate and inappropriate sexual conduct. Instead, I have been taught, (as far as I can recall from a catholic upbringing -where we don't actually talk about it at all) that sex is completely and entirely taboo. There is no appropriate venue for frank and open sexual talk or action. This is at odds with the reality of my mammalian inheritance, and my personal life experience and philosophy. Nonetheless, when confronted with rape, or any inappropriate sexual behavior, my default, trained reaction is to blame all sexuality, to blame my own sexuality in particular as the root cause of the problem. So what is needed, from my perspective, is a better parsing algorithm for distinguishing between what is and is not proper sexual behavior. My personal algorithm is this: if everybody is cool with it, proceed. I'm certainly not interested if the other person isn't. The biggest turn on for me is that I turn the other person on.

So what's the problem?

Learning that all sexuality is bad teaches you to treat "good" things as "bad". So then, we can just blame all kinds of real-world bad things like rape as a consequence of sexuality in general, rather than as, I dunno, whatever it is -as rape (or whatever). Rape doesn't have to be anything other than what it is.

Perhaps what we need is more specificity. We need completely open, detailed discussion about all the awesome stuff that can be done with regard to the penises and vaginas and ears and other body parts when rubbed up against one another. And then a brief discussion about the pretty simple idea that you shouldn't do any of this stuff without permission from all parties involved, including any people with whom you have a standing agreement prohibiting bodily rubbing with other people. There are other vagaries involving age and competence which are a little more vague...perhaps they should be discussed as such.

Fucking honesty. That's what we need. Honesty. Lay your damn cards on the table.

My point here is not about rape, but about the male response to discussion about rape, from my personal perspective as a male. It can be uncomfortable to talk about inappropriate sexual behavior because I learned that all discussion of and engagement in sexual behavior is inappropriate. We learn that sex is dirty and bad and it should be saved for the one person you love, which makes no sense at all. So my mind is all muddled to begin with. Then, you approach this completely muddled territory with something that is actually and undeniably terrible, and suddenly I am grasping for a frame of reference; I don't know which way is up.

Common scenario: I see someone in a bar or wherever and think she is sexy and want to have sex with her. This immediately triggers trained thought patterns saying this is bad. But is it? Right here is the root of why I can't rationally proceed. I have been told my sexual desires are bad. So now I am confused. How far away from a rapist am I? Does it make me a rapist to want to bang that chick over there? Does it make me a want-to-be-rapist? Do I have to exercise self-control to stop myself? My rational answer is no, of course not. I don't want to rape her, nor have I, so I am neither a rapist in desire nor action. But there is this muddling of the sexual waters that causes all sorts of unpleasantness.

What we need are big billboards with PSA's of the folowing design. A picture of a pretty female human in a typical habitat, at a bar, or on campus holding some books. The words: Guys, it's okay to want to fuck her, but it's not okay to fuck her unless she wants you to, so ask her first. It's also okay to ask. Also, it's still okay to want to.

Then, once we all get this: That it's totally okay to want to bang the shit out of the girl you just saw in the cereal isle of the Publix, as long as you don't go and actually try to do it without her permission, then we can start talking about rape.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oh Phlogiston, I think you are so spot on! And it's not that lust and arousal are disconnected from rape, it's just that they are not the driving motivations behind rape, but most men, who have been raised to believe that lust and arousal are "bad", get confused about that and feel guilty for feelings that are only about lust and arousal, not about power, violence, and control. Even though lust and arousal only BECOME bad when they are linked with power, violence, and control.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

[BabylonHoruv]

Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

[Luna]

Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

And, this was over 20 years ago.  Things were worse back then.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Luna, most reported rapes do not result in conviction. I'm not even sure they SHOULD, because in most cases it's he-said, she-said, and rape cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, seriously, that's the last thing you should beat yourself up about.

I think reporting is important, but not in the sense that it actually gets rapists off the streets. It just helps shine light on the magnitude of the problem.

Considering what a woman has to go through if she does report a rape I can't blame most victims for keeping quiet.  I'm admittedly basing that assumption on fictional and newspaper accounts of what she has to go through, but neither the medical rape kit procedure nor the police getting the information they need to have a chance of catching/prosecuting the rapist sound at all pleasant.

And, this was over 20 years ago.  Things were worse back then.

I've heard from people who work with rape victims that it's better now, but still pretty traumatizing.

[Luna]

I don't doubt it.  There's no good way to make someone who's been violated relive it.